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Well, today is our first day back at school and we start off our wonderful year with complete dentures. Booooo.
I'm right there with ya, Gavin.ItsGavinC said:Well, today is our first day back at school and we start off our wonderful year with complete dentures. Booooo.
Dr. Jeff, do you have an in-house lab, then? How does that compare to sending stuff out to an external facility?DrJeff said:As much as complete dentures can be a royal PITA, especially when you're doing all the lab work yourself, they do force you to learn one of the true fundamentals of this profession, occlussion! Dentures really forces you to get a three dimensional concept of working and balancing side contacts and canine guidance. True, it really can suck when your spending what seems lime days inthe lab setting and resetting and resetting and resetting teeth to get the occlussion perfect, but its that exact concept that will dictate almost everything else we do in dentistry.
BTW, I'm with Dr Rob with how I do dentures in private practice:
Visit 1: Consult, take primary impressions(actually have my assistant take the primaries). This is actually the most important visit IMHO, where you need to lay out the limitations and what expectations your patients can expect with respect to retention, chewing ability, and the likely need for future relines. Total time 20 to 30 minutes (most of me talking). Re appoint patient in 1 week after my lab tech has made custom trays
Visit 2: Final impressions(I take them). I use Impregum (an addition silicone) in a custom tray. Reiterate again the limitations and expectations the patient should have. Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint the patient in 1 week after my lab tech has made record bases and wax rims
Visit 3: Jaw realtions + tooth mould/color selection. Once again reiterate final expectations. Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint the pateint in 1 week after my lab tech has set the teeth.
Visit 4: Wax try in, again reiterate expectations (also remind them to bring their checkbooks next time ). Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint in 1 week for delivery after my lab tech has processed the dentures.
Visit 5: Deliver the dentures Total time 15 minutes Re appoint them for a follow up in 1 to 2 days.
I do alot of explaining of the patients expectations as you can see, this gets the patient to have a realistic view and if and when they can eat a steak or corn on the cobb or an apple without a problem, you look like a hero. I tend to spend alot more time explaining to patients for whom I'm kaing immediate dentures for than for those who are getting their 2nd, 3rd or 4th set of dentures
aphistis said:Dr. Jeff, do you have an in-house lab, then? How does that compare to sending stuff out to an external facility?
Midoc said:Dr. Jeff, Dr. Rob I'm curious if either of you have ever made complete interim dentures for a patient in real life? We have a rule at school that we don't do any definitive work for patients unless they have been caries free for 12 months. For some reason that I completely don't understand this includes complete dentures as well. I could understand doing immediate interims but other than that I'm at a loss as to why we would do that.
DrJeff said:Visit 4: Wax try in, again reiterate expectations (also remind them to bring their checkbooks next time ).
ItsGavinC said:We just finished setting our teeth today, and it was pretty cool.
The way we have it set up, we have lab techs, prosthodontists, and lab professors in the room at the same time, so it's been nice to get little tips and tricks here and there from each of those groups.
Our instructor was Dr. El-Gendy from Ohio State and he was awesome (props to him). I'm feeling much better about complete dentures at the end of the week than I was at the beginning!!
ItsGavinC said:And how large are those checks on average?
toothcaries said:anyways, here is his course website.
imo, it's pretty helpful if u are learning CDs.
http://www.dent.osu.edu/completedentures/
toothcaries said:anyways, here is his course website.
imo, it's pretty helpful if u are learning CDs.
http://www.dent.osu.edu/completedentures/
I just got home from the school spending three extracurricular hours working on my wax rims, and it hit me about halfway through that working on wax now is a LOT more enjoyable than it was last year. I'd go spazzing out last year on every tooth morph & occlusion project, and now I was having a perfectly relaxing time smoothing things out. I'm looking forward to setting teeth next week (we only meet for CD once a week), and in general second year doesn't seem so bad thus far, as long as you're resigned to putting in the time. Here's hoping it stays that way.DDSSlave said:Good website. I may use it to review CDs when I start them in clinic this fall.
c132 said:Wait till you do it on a real pt. Or better yet a real RPD pt. You will pull your hair out to get them into a class 1 molar relationship!!!!
ItsGavinC said:No doubt. And we are starting removable partial prosth. on Monday, so I'm sure that will also hold lots of surprises for me.
never heard of him!ca_dreamin' said:... Dr. El-Gendy...
BTW, I agree with you--he is an excellent doc.
toothcaries said:wow.
talk about a small world.
(i frequently schedule to work with dr. el-gendy...my patients love the guy)
anyways, here is his course website.
imo, it's pretty helpful if u are learning CDs.
http://www.dent.osu.edu/completedentures/
ca_dreamin' said:Hey Gavin- Sorry to bring up such an old thread, but I was curious...In your courses, did you only have the one complete denture course with Dr. El-Gendy, or did you also have courses that focused on creating a monoplane set-up, etc...
I know your clinical situation of unique, so I did not know if you would be doing your own dentures the next few years, or sending them to the lab. Just curious.
BTW, I agree with you--he is an excellent doc.
DrJeff said:As much as complete dentures can be a royal PITA, especially when you're doing all the lab work yourself, they do force you to learn one of the true fundamentals of this profession, occlussion! Dentures really forces you to get a three dimensional concept of working and balancing side contacts and canine guidance. True, it really can suck when your spending what seems lime days inthe lab setting and resetting and resetting and resetting teeth to get the occlussion perfect, but its that exact concept that will dictate almost everything else we do in dentistry.
BTW, I'm with Dr Rob with how I do dentures in private practice:
Visit 1: Consult, take primary impressions(actually have my assistant take the primaries). This is actually the most important visit IMHO, where you need to lay out the limitations and what expectations your patients can expect with respect to retention, chewing ability, and the likely need for future relines. Total time 20 to 30 minutes (most of me talking). Re appoint patient in 1 week after my lab tech has made custom trays
Visit 2: Final impressions(I take them). I use Impregum (an addition silicone) in a custom tray. Reiterate again the limitations and expectations the patient should have. Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint the patient in 1 week after my lab tech has made record bases and wax rims
Visit 3: Jaw realtions + tooth mould/color selection. Once again reiterate final expectations. Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint the pateint in 1 week after my lab tech has set the teeth.
Visit 4: Wax try in, again reiterate expectations (also remind them to bring their checkbooks next time ). Total time 15 minutes. Re appoint in 1 week for delivery after my lab tech has processed the dentures.
Visit 5: Deliver the dentures Total time 15 minutes Re appoint them for a follow up in 1 to 2 days.
I do alot of explaining of the patients expectations as you can see, this gets the patient to have a realistic view and if and when they can eat a steak or corn on the cobb or an apple without a problem, you look like a hero. I tend to spend alot more time explaining to patients for whom I'm kaing immediate dentures for than for those who are getting their 2nd, 3rd or 4th set of dentures
I usually try to get the dentures as close to Cl I as possible and also canine guidance. So far none of them has any problem with unstability due to canine guidance.Dr.2b said:DrJeff, canine guidance on your complete dentures Are you fabricating dentures with mutually protected occlusion or did you mean a bilateral balanced occlusion. Truly no flame intended just wondering.
Dr.2b said:DrJeff, canine guidance on your complete dentures Are you fabricating dentures with mutually protected occlusion or did you mean a bilateral balanced occlusion. Truly no flame intended just wondering.
DrJeff said:In my neck of the woods it in the $2500 to $3000 range depending on if its a set of immediate dentures verses a new set of existing dentures (my immediates are more since I include in the cost relines in the 1st 12 months after exo's).
On the basis of fees per amount of chairtime used, dentures can often be your most profitable procedure
DrJeff said:No canine guidance for my plastic teeth(or almost never). I'm a bi-lateral group function fan typically with 10 degree posterior teeth (about 75% of my sets will have these including essentially all my immediate denture cases), and on fabrication of a new set of dentures for an existing denture patient who exhibits extensive wear of their "original" dentures, I'll often use monoplane teeth (I've had a few cases like this where I went with 10 degree teeth and basically ended up grinding away any posterior cuspal rise, so I kind of learned my lesson about the concept of esthetics vs. function in this type of situation)
I've also had my CR thought process evolve over the years from a hard, rigid CR = the only way to one that I think of as a "soft CR" where I'll work to manipulate the mandible back to CR (if the patients musculature will COMFORTABLY let me get there), if I can't get them easily back to CR then I'll head more towards a CO, and I find that they end up functioning very comfortably in that location(I'd say that about 1/3 of my denture patients have their teeth set in the "soft CR" position), and its really something where I'll know about 3 seconds into the CR manipulation movements if CR or this "soft CR" will be what I'm doing for my bite registration.
dudelove said:Do you take protrusive record?
GQ1 said:i base tooth selection on 6 factors
1. a-p jaw relationship - class 1 pts = anatomic or semi anatomic, class 2 and 3 rational teeth or mould combination
2.mediolateral jaw relationship - anatomic and semi are difficult to arrange in crossbite, therfore in these pts use mould combo.
3. occlusal concept - balanced occlusion = anatomic or semi anatomic. a non balanced occlusion has to use rational or mould combo teeth.
4. esthetics anything but rational (flat maxillary teeth)
5. neuromuscular control. for anatomic and semi, pts need reasonable control. go for combo if its poor.
6. residual ridge morphology. minimal ridge = 0 degree teeth. this is because with cusp inclination there will be torque in balanced excursion on the ridges as there is little stability which will cause dispalcement and inreased resorption. this has to be balanced against decreased masticatory function with flatter teeth as there are smaller sluiceways, so increased force on the ridges.