Complete heart block

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
so why are we skipping atropine in complete heart block, if patient has a pressure that can sustain life

The conduction block in 3rd degree is usually at the AV node or downstream in the bundles. Atropine is unlikely to help since its effects predominate upstream of the block, but it's possible it would help in a small number of cases where AV conduction is occasionally making it through.

Members don't see this ad.
 
The conduction block in 3rd degree is usually at the AV node or downstream in the bundles. Atropine is unlikely to help since its effects predominate upstream of the block, but it's possible it would help in a small number of cases where AV conduction is occasionally making it through.

Right but didn't we suggest in the above posts that atropine speed it up in both AV and SA node?
 
The AV node also has both sympathetic and parasympathetic innervation, so atropine would block parasympathetic and theoretically improve AV nodal conduction. Still certainly reasonable to give it a try in complete heart block as if block is at the level of the AV node then it may help transiently, if the level block is below the AVN (in HIS-Purkinje system) then it may not. But still certainly reasonable to try as you're getting other therapies in place.

Beyond that then can try Dopamine, Isuprel, Epi, even dobutamine in setting of heart failure. Temp pacing (cutaneous or transvenous) as well if needed.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
"In your AHA Provider manual, you will see it stated in the bradycardia algorithm section that atropine is not effective for Mobitz II and Complete Heart Block. I have had a number of people ask why it is not effective. Here is an explanation:

First, let’s look at atropine and how it works. Atropine increases firing of the sinoatrial node (atria) and conduction through the atrioventricular node (AV) of the heart by blocking the action of the vagus nerve.

With 3rd-degree block, there is a complete block and disassociation of the electrical activity that is occurring in the atria and ventricles. Since atropine’s affect is primarily on the SA node in the atria, a 3rd-degree block would prevent its affect on the SA node from influencing the rate of ventricular contraction which is needed to improve perfusion.

With Mobitz-II, aka, Second-degree AV Block Type II, the situation is similar. There is a partial block in the electrical impulses from the atria (SA) to the ventricles, and thus the affects of atropine would not significantly change the status of the ventricles.
This block can also rapidly progress to 3rd-degree block.

To summarize, Atropine may speed the firing rate of the SA node (atria), but the ventricles are not responding to anything the atria (SA node) puts out. Thus, the heart rates will not increase.

There may be some action at the AV-node with atropine, but the effect will be negligible and typically not therapeutic. Atropine in most cases will not hurt the patient with 3rd-degree block unless they are unstable and you delay pacing to give atropine.

It is important to note that Mobitz II and Complete Heart Block may be associated with acute myocardial ischemia. In this case, if atropine is used and it increases the heart rate there is a high potential for worsening of the myocardial ischemia due to the increased oxygen consumption. The increased heart rate will also reduce the diastolic filling time which may worsen coronary perfusion.

Since new onset mobitz II and Complete Heart Block are commonly associated with myocardial infarction, it would be ideal to keep the HR slow (50-60) to increase diastolic filling time. Anytime you increase HR, the diastolic filling time is what takes the biggest hit.

Transcutaneous Pacing should be the first line in symptomatic Mobitz II and Symptomatic Complete Heart Block. It is very safe & less painful than in previous times due to technology improvements. Research has shown that most individuals can tolerate > 15min of transcutaneous pacing without too much difficulty."

https://acls-algorithms.com/acls-drugs/bradycardia/
 
My algorithm is atropine (which didn't work in the few cases I encountered) followed by epi (which did). This doesn't mean that atropine doesn't have a nodal action, only that these blocks are infranodal.

Btw, the intrinsic firing rate of the AV node is 40-60 beats/min, so, if I see severe bradycardia without an obvious vagal cause, I assume that the block is infranodal.
 
My algorithm is atropine (which didn't work in the few cases I encountered) followed by epi (which did). This doesn't mean that atropine doesn't have a nodal action, only that these blocks are infranodal.

Btw, the intrinsic firing rate of the AV node is 40-60 beats/min, so, if I see severe bradycardia without an obvious vagal cause, I assume that the block is infranodal.

How many mg of atropine did you give in those cases that didn't work?
 
ACLS has been dumbed down so that followers of the protocol don’t have to distinguish between high and low grade blocks. The algorithm directs the administration of atropine for all causes of bradycardia as a first step. I guess too many EMTs and nurses thought the old ACLS was too hard.

That doesn’t mean that those of us who know better should waste time with anticholinergics in patients who are obviously in complete heart block. Direct acting drugs (epi) and pacing are the right answers.

EMTs aren't ACLS certified, but Paramedics are. It was the nurses that thought it was too hard, we helped teach the nurses at local facilities. With hospitals pushing for ACLS certification across various departments it was likely becoming a staffing issue.
 
Seriously though. This can’t be illegal. What’s preventing hospitals from buying from Europe or Canada? Is there a law behind this?

This would help ease the cost for hospitals. Which I am SURE they would pass on to patients. Lol.

But seriously, what’s to prevent them?

yes there are laws against it. You can't just purchase a drug for patient administration in the US from anywhere you want. FDA has to approve the manufacturing site (amongst other rules). While we'd all like to get our hands on good drugs from Europe, patient safety types would worry you are importing sewer water from Somalia and slapping a nice label on it.
 
yes there are laws against it. You can't just purchase a drug for patient administration in the US from anywhere you want. FDA has to approve the manufacturing site (amongst other rules). While we'd all like to get our hands on good drugs from Europe, patient safety types would worry you are importing sewer water from Somalia and slapping a nice label on it.

Sewer water and slapping a nice label on it. Haha.
Maybe there is gonna be a black market for this.
 
Top