Computerized physician order entry

Discussion in 'Pharmacy' started by DrugRX, Jan 7, 2009.

  1. DrugRX

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    I am doing pharmacy informatics rotation and got involved in the implementation of CPOE using Simens Sorian and Zynx.

    I was a programmer with a BS in computer science and would like to know the opportunity of becoming a IT/IS pharmacist at hospital pharmacy. My hospital does have IT pharmacist, but most of other hospitals around my area do not have such position but IT people work with pharmacist.

    So, I am wondering if majority hospitals have such position or not. I see a lot of opportunities in consulting company if I get to know more of CPOE implementation process, but just don't want to travel around.

    Also, what application does your hospital use for CPOE?


    Giving current pharmacy students an idea how I got such rotation....
    My school has no pharmacy informatics rotation, but as I was doing institution rotation, I saw them working on CPOE implementation and it was very interesting for me. So, I asked my preceptor if I can be involved in CPOE project and she allowed me to do. So, pharmacy informatics is my elective and I am hoping I can do another one with this hospital since I have to do two elective rotations.
     
    #1 DrugRX, Jan 7, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2009
  2. kismet

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    I'm a hospital tech and we're finally upgrading from a horribly outdated OE system to Mediware WORx. I'm the "computer person" by virtue of being the youngest in the pharmacy and I've been working with several pharmacists whose only job is to implement and be experts on IT stuff for the region (we have several hospitals spanning a few cities in the area that all are part of the same company). They have base offices at a professional office building for the hospital system where they can remote-in to all of our computer systems and they also go out to the hospital sites as needed to check physical setups or do installs. They seem to love it and are starting to bug me about going into IT once I finish pharmacy school. It's not really the kind of thing I wanna do for the rest of my life but I'm glad somebody does. :)

    As a pharmacy staff member, I absolutely love having them around because nothing sucks more than calling the "tech help line" when there's a problem and mentioning the name of our OE system - 100% of the time, the computer tech on the other end of the line has no idea what I'm talking about or just refers me to the software vendors. I had no idea these IT pharmacists existed until recently. I'm sure you would have no problem finding a job with your programming background and a PharmD!
     
  3. tootoo30

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    I have been checking into pharmacy informatics also because I plan on pursuing a career in the field. I spoke to the guy over the residency program at the VA and he told me that ASHP requires you to do a 1st year residency first before you can do the 2nd year residency in pharmacy informatics. He was looking into getting that rule changed depending on the person. I sent him my resume and he said that by the time I graduate he thinks that I can bypass the 1st year residency and come straight to their program. It will probably be hard to walk into that type of position without a residency and your right the positions are far and few so you may have to relocate. I think it' s the university of michigan that has a pharmacy informatics residency with a guaranteed teaching position afterwards. Check out the residency options on the ASHP website.

    HTH
     
  4. GoRx

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    I have great interests in this field too. I have a master degree in CS and am going to have Pharm.D. this summer. I plan to have some pharmacy informatics knowledge in the next a few months before graduation and try to find a job in this field if there is. I don't want to go for residency program as for people with computer background already, the two-year residency program is a waste of time, especially the PGY1 genneral residency. If your guys have any suggestion or information, we can share in this thread.

    glad to meet people are interested in this field here :p
     
  5. bigpharmD

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    Quite frankly I dont think it is a waste of time. Suck it up and do your time. You might be able to contact a program and go right in without having to do a pgy1. Many of these resedencies are probably not accredited.
     
  6. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    i am an informatics pharmacist.
    i kind of "fell into" the position by being one of the more computer saavy pharmacists on staff.....i am certified in SQL server 2005, and am taking the oracle 10g, linux and VMware certs this year. i didnt do a residency or rotation, so i really can't comment on that.
    any other questions, please feel free to pass them along!:)
     
  7. shal

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    I have a BS in CS and graduated with Pharm D in 2008. I recently started as an informatics pharmacist couple of weeks ago. Currently I am serving as the WORx administrator but will transition into the clinical information systems team once we upgrade to another system.
     
  8. DrugRX

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    Can you please elaborate a little bit more on your daily duty? I hate to ask you this question, but does informatics pharmacist get paid higher than staff/clinical pharmacist? I am meeting with HR soon, so I would like to have an idea.

    Last question, do most of hospitals have such positions in pharmacy department or in IT/IS department? Is informatics pharmacist is common position in hospitals?

    Thank you.
     
    #8 DrugRX, Jan 19, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  9. G0T2PS

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    Hey..

    I first learned about pharmacy informatics a few month ago.. a lady from hospital in South Florida came to my school and it caught my eye.

    Unlike you guys though.. I don't have any computer background :(.

    But I was very interested in pursuing this route.. looks interesting to me and I always loved computers.. as a laymen.

    Fill me in.. about what you guys think of the program? Is computer background necessary?

    Also.. I was reading on Ohio State University as well as Michigan... and their program seems tough as bolts. Research journals.. presentation..

    I guess my question is if anyone who actually does it or seen that side of pharmacy.. talk about the daily life of a pharmacy informatics. Is it worth the extra 2 years? What about the typical life as an employee?

    Peace!
     
  10. bigpharmD

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    YES it is worth it. This is the problem with most pharmacy students. They dont want to do any extra training past pharmacy school. The experience gained is invaluable and will open up more possibilities.
     
  11. DrugRX

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    Not worth it at all for pharmacy informatics. I am not sure about other specialties such as ID or Oncology, but if you have a strong background in IT, you DO NOT need to do pharmacy informatics residency. Plus, most of programs offer it as PGY2, meaning you have to do PGY1.

    Do your rotation with informatics pharmacist. If your school has no official pharmacy informatics rotation available, ask around when you do your IM or institution roation. I am sure you will find one.

    Personally, I believe that there is nothing wrong with not wanting to do extra training after Rx school. If you can get the same position without residency or fellowship, geting paid 1/3 or 1/4 and being abused frequently, why do you want to do or even need any extra training? What about on the job training?

    If you want to be a clinical pharmacist, work as a staff pharmacist for a couple of years and get involved in everything in community hospital. In that way, you get paid pharmacist salary, gain a lot of clinical knowledge, and become a clinical pharmacist.

    Oh well, maybe I am wrong... No offense to those who applied or doing residency, but no matter how many times I think about residency/fellowship, I can not justify or convince myself the needs of extra training after Rx school.
     
    #11 DrugRX, Jan 20, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  12. bigpharmD

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    Yeah the surgeons I work with are just gonna hire some hot shot with experience staffing.....rightttttt

    I am sure many people will agree with me that the best DOPs, admins, informatics pharmds have a good clinical background. This helps them tremendously troubleshooting, interacting with physicians, nurses, and pharmacists. When the informatics guy has to fix CPOE issues or make a protocol change they need to know why and how it effects patients. Joe Blow pharmD graduating just doesnt have this background. Could you gain this experience working/staffing for 3-5 years and then take one of these positions...yes. I would respect this person much more.

    I had an admin at my previous residency who took the job right out of school because he had "manager experience" in his previous life. This guy got walked all over. He lasted about 1 year before he figured out he needed more experience. He didnt have the real world knowledge to fix the issues. Yeah you could probably graduate and fix accudose issues or pyxis issues but so can my tech. All of our informatics people had at least 4 or 5 years experience before they got into what they do now.

    Takin 1/3 of the pay is worth it. And you are not abused frequently.
     
  13. DrugRX

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    For other specialties, maybe you are right. I can't argue with you since I have no idea how much value residency can give you as a clinical pharmacist. However, do not forget that residency is equivalent to 3 or whatever years of experience. It is not a royalty or additional degree above PharmD, so it is a choice or preference. Do not stereotype people who did not do residency as lazy people. Just because you went through 1 or 2 years of working for 60 hours and getting paid 1/3 to get the clinical position, it does not mean that others have to do the same thing to get the same position. If they can get there other way around, why not? And, please do not tell me that residency is the ONLY way.

    Two of my friends told me that they are being abused frequently. So it is very subjective statement, but it is a fact that they are being abused. Both of them are doing residency at so-called prestigious teaching hospital and that's how they feel sometimes.

    For informatics pharmacist position, if you have an IT background, it is NOT worth it. As you said, techs fix accudose issues or pyxis issues. So why do you even ask? Do you think new informatics pharmacist without residency will only be able to just fix accudose and pyxis issues? They will probably need to learn how to resolve those issues in the beginning and need to help out techs. Pharmacist with an IT background is smarter than you think when it comes to IT issues.

    With my background in computer science and working experience in IT industry, I can function just like your informatics pharmacist after a month or two of on the job training, so why do I or others with IT background need to do residency for 2 years to do the same job? I totally agree with you regarding the clinical knowledge for IT pharmacist to provide adequate help, and I plan to do staffing a day or two to keep up the knowledge and skill. Aagain, I can get the clinical knowledge and whatever necessary information from on the job training. So, why do I need to do the residency?

    So far, without residency, I got two offers (not a formal letter with numbers but going to meet HR people soon); one from current hospital that I am doing rotation and the other from a big teaching hospital. Again, for those who with an IT background, you do NOT need residency. Do not waste your time, but just get some experience during rotation. I dare to say that residency is a complete WASTE for pharmaicst with an IT background looking for a pharmacy informatics position.
     
    #13 DrugRX, Jan 20, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2009
  14. shal

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    Initially I will be primarily doing system administration (adding users, drugs, troubleshooting, reports, working with IT). We have a lot of changes happening so I am getting involved with those. Again its only my 3rd week there so its hard to comment since I am getting the hang of things still.

    As far as pay, its the same as staff pharmacist but I have nice hours and weekends / holidays off. So to me this was a big enough benefit to have with my 3.5 mo old.

    From my experience, having IT experience or degree does make you highly desirable for such positions! As far as clinical experience goes, I feel that a new graduate is much more up to date with current guidelines than an informatics pharmacist working for 4-5 yrs. I am sure a fast learner can easily pick up things without a residency especially if you have a knack for such things.
     
  15. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    daily duties -
    troubleshooting issues for users on the floors as well as in pharmacy
    break/fix with regard to hardware/software (printer issues, software updates)
    custom reports (new dispensing labels, workflow/other analysis for DOP, drug utilization for clinical staff)
    rule building and other customizations of pharmacy system - addresses workflow issues and clinical needs
    formulary maintenance and clinical database updates
    troubleshoot and support for bedside barcoding (new barcodes, workflow design, break/fix on apps and hardware)
    review of financial reports/maintenance of pharmacy charge master
    integration testing with b/t other apps and pharmacy system
    assist in development of new interfaces b/t HIS and pharmacy system
    process flow and workflow design for new systems implementation
    formulary and frequency table build for new system implementation
    upgrade of pharmacy database/database server to new release
    virtualization and creation of test/development environment
    integration testing for applicaiton upgrades
    etc...etc...etc

    as you can see, there is very little "technical" that i do....sort of....without a strong technical background, it will difficult to hold one's own with the IT staff.

    i also agree that a residency seems like a waste of a year....i didnt do that, i have been a staff pharmacist at the institution for 5 years....and i feel that knowledge of the hospital culture is the most invaluable resource i have. you can learn and be taught any technical skill (network, programming, database, pick one and learn it) but you can't be taught culture and the workflow that is inherent to the institution.

    the best thing i think anyone can do is actually be a hybrid staff/IT (which may not be possible) or branch out to IT in a house you are familiar with. it will make you invaluable and your life will be much easier!!
     
  16. bigpharmD

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    You fail to see that I mention a couple of years of work experience may provide you with adequate knowledge for an IT job. I still think it is a mistake for any pharmacy department to hire some Pharmd grad without any real WORLD hospital experience whether they have IT experience or not. I think you are missing the fundemental point. Residency training provides you with many more experiences and I think it is invaluable to sustaining the future of our profession. The hospital I am currently at has no day shift staff pharmDs without at least one year of residency training and it is one of the best departments I have worked for. That is the future. Sorry.
     
  17. tootoo30

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    I agree that a residency is a waste of time and after speaking to some preceptors for informatics, they feel the same way. Most think that the PY1 residency is a waste of time for applicants with a BS or MS in CS. There is nothing that can be learned as a PY1 that will relate to the job of pharmacy informatics. I will be graduating with a MS in CS this June and plan on starting pharmacy school this fall :xf: so I do not feel the need to do a residency when I have all the knowledge of computers required to perform the job.
     
  18. DrugRX

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    I think you are missing my point. On the job training is also valuable and you can learn as much as you want or need to do your job. Please do not tell me that residency is the only way to gain valuable clinical experience.

    By the way, maybe your department is the best according to your experience. However, your department is completely WRONG not hiring pharmacist without residency. They should hire pharmacist based on the clinical knowledge and capability NOT based on another title like residency. The best clinical pharmacist I have ever met does not even have PharmD, but she is the best in ID. I bet she knows more than most of people who did two years of residency specialized in ID. Please do not say residecny is the future of profession; it is just another way to get experience and do not look down your colleagues who has no titles like PharmD or residency, or assume that you know more or better than them.

    Again back to informatics pharmacy, my hospital hired infomatics pharmacy consultant who has 10 years of experience in pharmacy informatics. He also believes residency for pharmacy informatics is a waste. He has worked for various hospitals and he feels pharmacy informatics residency is just another way for hospitals utilize man-power with low-price.
     
    #18 DrugRX, Jan 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  19. bigpharmD

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    I should reword that...any new hires have to have 3 years experience OR 1 year of residency. No questions asked. And like I said it is one of the best departments I have worked at and more progressive than most. And actually the best pharmacist I know is a BSpharm. But thats the past, not the future. Lets play devils advocate. I would say it's a waste of time to go through 6 years of PharmD school to become a pharmacy informatics guru. From what you say you could prob just go to pharm tech school and have an IT background and just jump right in. Pharmacy rotations teach you nothing about being a real life pharmacist in the hospital.
     
  20. Priapism321

    Priapism321 Bursting with enthusiasm
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    Yeah, why even bother getting a PharmD? According to some of the above posters, you guys know how to play on computers just fine at baseline, why not just get a job that you already assume you are qualified for and just pick it up as you go? This seems much more rational than spending 4 years and a lot of money NOT playing on computers.
     
    #20 Priapism321, Jan 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  21. Aznfarmerboi

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    I did a rotation at a pharmacy informatics company. Residency simply put would be a waste of time there. Almost all the pharmacists there did not do a residency.
     
  22. DrugRX

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    As I said in previous post, for other specialties, maybe you are right. Maybe, residency is the ONLY future and ONLY way to become clinical pharmacist, and hospitals won't hire pharmacist without residency. I can't argue with you because I just don't have enough experience to dispute your statement.

    However, I guess you and I need to stop the discussion regarding pharmacy informatics right here because it is not worth talking with someone who has no idea what informatics pharmacist do. Let me help you understand why PharmD is necessary to be informatics pharmacist. Actually, you can get the answer very easily. The position we are talking about is informatics PHARMACIST. In order to even apply for the postion, you need to be a pharmacist. That is a requirement and that's why you need to go to pharmacy school. The job may state they prefer pharmacist with residency, but any pharmacist can apply for the position.

    By the way, how can you compare the knowledge you gain from pharmacy school to pharm tech school? You are insulting yourself. In order to become informatics pharmacist, you need to be able to function just like pharmacist. That's why someone with pharm tech school and an IT background can not do the job.

    We have an IT guy in IT department focusing on pharmacy applications in my hospital and his role is completely different from informatics pharmacist. He can never be informatics pharmacist unless he goes to pharmacy school.

    Let's end the discussion right here.
     
    #22 DrugRX, Jan 21, 2009
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2009
  23. bigpharmD

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    And you got sooooo much experience doing this in pharmacy school right?
     
  24. shal

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    I agree! This has gone on long enough.
     
  25. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    tuss is just excited there is such heated interest in her field!:)
     
  26. 67echo

    67echo Hooah!
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    heated interest and no new posts in over 2 days...good job killing the thread tuss! :)
     
  27. tussionex

    tussionex Pharmacist
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    :( /sad
     
  28. iphetamine

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    Im currently playing around with sql and php, i just need to know them really well, professionally.
    how do you get certified???

    again, is the pay similar to staff or lower? would people look at you as a pharmacist with the extra knowledge (IT) or just another tech-boy? :p

    wait....informatics is different from drug information, two different specialties?

    ...i'm just too excited!!
     
  29. meister

    meister Senior Member
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    Can I just add that from a physician standpoint EMR systems are awesome because they allow students in their 20s to teach old attendings how to properly do things on a computer. Every time I go into my preceptor's office he's grumbling about some stupid thing on his EMR system and I have to show him what to do.

    Ego++ (of course afterward we get back to clinic duty and it's ego-- for a few hours)
     
  30. DrugRX

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    New informatics pharmacist gets paid about the same or a bit higher than new staff pharmacist. Hours are great though; 8 to 4 M-F, no weekends, no holidays. If you become a consultant after years and years of experience, you can make so much more.

    People look at you as a pharmacist with the IT knowledge and you are definitely different from an IT guy in IT department. You are specialized in informatics just like oncology or ID specialty.

    Informatics is different from drug information.
     
  31. iphetamine

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    which is better? :p


    no, seriously, would informatics help in a career in the industry or it's only hospital job?
     
  32. iphetamine

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    What do you think of this course, is it good for an informatics career? Would that help if i ever wanted to do Master of Health Administration/Informatics?

    Here are other related courses, but I think the one i posted is the best out of them. Plz your suggestions. :D
     

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