Concerned applicant with decent stats, but multiple Institutional Action

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[bananafish94]

Seven charges makes it very difficult to make a case that you have matured and learned from the incident(s). It doesn't help that these occurred throughout the first three years and weren't isolated to your freshman year.

 

[gyngyn]

I've never seen 7 IA's.
AMCAS is likely to initiate an investigation when the non-disclosure pops up. You may as well contact them before submitting the re-application.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[bananafish94]

Yes it is a rough place to be in. 6/7 did occur in short succession during one semester though. which was 3 years ago. Following that semester I opted to live on my own off campus because I clearly was not a good fit for the dorm atmosphere and since then had 0 incidences

Were all of them for things like that or were any for something serious like cheating?

 

[heybubbaa]

I was honestly surprised myself. 2 were for disorderly conduct however. Apparently my suite had been "too loud" on two separate occasions during the beginning of quiet hours. So our RA filed official complaints and myself and 2 others were singled out and given disorderly conduct warnings.

A warning? Were you given violations or warnings? I'm no expert, but that could potentially be a big difference.

 

[starspells]

Someone on SDN posted they had 6 IAs (petty incidents from an annoying school) and they got 2 interviews and were subsequently rejected. You're going to need to distance yourself as much as possible from the incident.

 

[starspells]

A warning? Were you given violations or warnings? I'm no expert, but that could potentially be a big difference.

Yeah, OP, you should ask your pre-med office or advisor if you need to report these incidents. Many times minor violations need not be reported.

 

[gyngyn]

Yeah, OP, you should ask your pre-med office or advisor if you need to report these incidents. Many times minor violations need not be reported.

At this point, OP already has a non-disclosure that is more significant that the infractions. Trying to dodge some of them will only make it worse. From AMCAS instructions:
"Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the Medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials.


You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition."

 

[starspells]

At this point, OP already has a non-disclosure that is more significant that the infractions. Trying to dodge some of them will only make it worse. From AMCAS instructions:
"Medical schools require you to answer this question accurately and provide all relevant information. Medical schools understand that many individuals learn from the past and emerge stronger as a result. Full disclosure will enable the Medical schools to more effectively evaluate this information within the context of your credentials.


You must answer Yes to this question if you were ever the recipient of any institutional action resulting from unacceptable academic performance or a conduct violation, even if such action did not interrupt your enrollment or require you to withdraw. You must answer Yes even if the action does not appear on or has been deleted from your official transcripts due to institutional policy or personal petition."

I'm just telling him to confirm that they are all indeed IAs. It doesn't sound like some of them are. If one is unsure AMCAS recommends checking with the pre-health advisor and if they say that he doesn't have to report it, I don't see why he should?

From the AMCAS website:
If you are not certain whether or not you have been the subject of an institutional action, contact the registrar, student affairs officer, or other appropriate party at the institution for confirmation of your record.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[starspells]

yes I am most worried that the medical schools will see my previous nondisclosure and assume I was dishonest (I was not thorough enough). each was an institutional action because I signed a paper stating that I was aware of the charges (similar to a typical writeup at a part time job). I am inclined to think that many of the schools I applied to however did not even follow up on this in the first place because they offered me secondary applications.

I would assume most schools if they checked would have done so before sending secondaries so it is tempting just to leave it checked no again but I am trying to own my past and disclose all events.

I would still recommend checking with your pre-health advisor. If he or she says "yes" you have to report it, you absolutely should not go ahead and check "no" again...

 

[gyngyn]

yes I am most worried that the medical schools will see my previous nondisclosure and assume I was dishonest (I was not thorough enough). each was an institutional action because I signed a paper stating that I was aware of the charges (similar to a typical writeup at a part time job). I am inclined to think that many of the schools I applied to however did not even follow up on this in the first place because they offered me secondary applications.

I would assume most schools if they checked would have done so before sending secondaries so it is tempting just to leave it checked no again but I am trying to own my past and disclose all events.

Most secondaries go out automatically.

You really need to disclose this yourself.

 

[starspells]

Additionally if you don't and it is on your final transcripts or is somehow discovered at the time of matriculation your medical school will not be happy and your acceptance will probably be rescinded.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[gyngyn]

Yes, I am absolutely planning to do so. I am just wondering if I should simply cut my losses here and not spend hundreds on an application which will simply be thrown out because of my extensive disciplinary record. I don't know what else I would do and have my heart set on medicine, but I am worried that I will simply not be considered because of those infarctions. My campus leadership officer assured me that he will relay that I finished school in good standing but I fear that this will not be enough.

At my school, the non-disclosure would be enough to eliminate the chance at an interview even if there were only 1 IA. Your state school may be more lenient.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[CaliforniaDreamer]

Can anyone comment on his GPA and how that will affect his application? I know 3.3 is too low, and 3.6 is passable, but is that the overall average or is that just the postbac GPA? I would expect that to be still too low if it was just the postbac gpa.

 

[Catalystik]

I applied last cycle and received several secondary applications, however I rushed through my AMCAS app and failed to specify a Yes check on that section. so now i'm in a dilemma because it looks like I was originally dishonest.

You have the option of applying through AACOMAS to DO med schools and properly reporting the infractions on this go round. That application service and AMCAS are separate.

 

[heybubbaa]

Can anyone comment on his GPA and how that will affect his application? I know 3.3 is too low, and 3.6 is passable, but is that the overall average or is that just the postbac GPA? I would expect that to be still too low if it was just the postbac gpa.

The 3.3 undergrad gpa is low, but because of his MCAT, his stats are probably competitive at some schools. He finished one year of a post bac with a 3.6 gpa, which, depending on the program, may be OK or slightly low.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I was going to suggest getting a letter of rec from that dean and maybe spending a year working with troubled youth. I missed your sentence about having not disclosed this last year. I don't know if this is really salvageable, unless you still want to apply in 10 years.

I'm sorry 🙁

 

[piii]

His stats aren't that competitive. He'd have a difficult enough time without the 7 IAs. A shot at low tiers but the 1 year of a 3.6 probably only bumps him up to a 3.4. I met a guy on the interview trail with a 3.3/37 and only one interview.

I don't think you'll overcome the IAs anytime soon. There are so many other applications, like tens of thousands with a perfectly clean record who have proven that they can live and work with others without harrasmant and disorderly conducts.

 

[BombsAway]

I can't speak to the application process, but from a problem/solution perspective: have you considered joining the military? My quick mental pro/con list seems like a perfect fit for you.
-Allow some time to pass to ameliorate the IA concerns from adcoms while giving you a perceived narrative of "joined the military and grew up" (perception is 9/10 of the law)
-It comes with a salary (yay!)
-Depending on the job you pick it could be super fun/give you lots of application ammo in the future
-When you get out you'll have most of med school paid for (3 years of service=full Gi Bill benefits, which is more attractive that 20 years of student loans)

Again, I can't speak to the application process yet, but a general life rule is, It's all about who you know. So if you know somebody, you should see if you have any options there.

Or, target a school in financial need and figure out how to get them a large donation... probably easier to join the military.

Good luck with whatever the future brings you. Given the correlations with MCAT scores and step(s), There is reason to believe you'd be successful if admitted (sexy mcat!). Personally, I've never cared to wonder if my PCP/surgeon/whoever threw a rager (or 7) in undergrad. Getting in trouble for a party is like getting a speeding ticket. Every does it, not everyone gets caught. Doesn't affect how I judge a person.

Best of Luck.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[BombsAway]

Thank you for the kind words. I feel so stupid about that one semester and the IA's aren't really even alcohol related for the most part. My floor of my dorm was 1 suite of rugby team guys (mine) and one of lacrosse players with a mix of rowdy people all in between. there would be damage to the hall, a fight, etc. every weekend just about and it was hard to stay out of each incident. 2 of the IA's listed are accusations of ceiling tile damage for which myself and 3 student's were named anonymously but we all denied and still were given a small fine to pay. 1 writeup was for kicking over a fire extinguisher that someone else had taken out of it's housing and put in front of my suite's door. One was for an argument with a suitemate that was reported to the RA's (we were friend's and patched things up only a few days later just to have a letter arrive at each of our doors a week later insisting "no concact"). One was for telling a girl on our floor that "I really don't want to have to look at your uncovered tramp stamp every day" (it was really more or less on her buttocks) when she would walk around pretty much uncovered in common areas. Finally, one was for swinging from a tree branch when horsing around with a friend, the branch broke, I was fined for damage to property, it was a decorative tree apparently.

I was not mature enough to avoid getting caught up in that mess of a dorm floor and I feel like I also had a little bad luck. It's just so incredibly frustrating because the second I moved out of that environment on my own decision, there was not a single other issue, ever. The next year is when I decided to switch majors to pre-med. There is no way I could explain all that in 1375 characters though.

I don't think any number of characters would do you any good. Put yourself in an adcoms position. Its your job to admit a cohesive class with a certain level of diversity, well prepared to succeed through the rigors of medical school, and then apply and get a job (residency). You get 8,000 applications and have 200 seats. How many minutes would you spend reading your app before it hit the reject pile? If you have 8,000 applications to slog your way through, any excuse to drop a candidate would probably result in exactly that. (this is hyperbole of course, I have no experience/insight in the admission process)

What are your thoughts on my suggestion of joining the military? If you want to be a physician above all else, I can't think of a better plan to make that happen. If you so desired you may be able to substitute the peace corps for the same effect. After you get out, or maybe during, you could retake some sciences for grade replacement and go DO with a compelling tale of reinvention and a ton of life experience. The military can bring the highest of highs and the lowest of lows, and thats the spice of life. Arriving safely at one's grave without having felt immense joy, pain, suffering, and exhilaration isn't a plan i'd sign up for.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[BombsAway]

I agree. It is near impossible to com back from that kind of record in any explanatory way. It is just not my plan to start medical school in 4-6 years and be 30 with 100's thousand of debt. I'd rather go the nurse practitioner route at that point, which is also not something i'm entirely keen on. I did have interviews last year with some overseas schools as they didn't even ask about disciplinary records, with my now higher grades i'm confident i'll get into one of them. This is my #1 option at this point as I don't think there is any shot at an American school.

Anyone who wants to be a physician in america should follow this decision tree:
1. MD
2. DO
3. Some other career
4. Caribbean

If you aren't keen on being a NP now, just wait till you're working as one, surrounded by people doing the job you wish you had. If you have a goal, work your ass off until you accomplish it or irrevocably fail. In either event you'll leave with your pride.

Your other concern about being 30 with <100K in debt doesn't apply to my proposal. You do 3 years of service in the military, you go to med school on Uncle Sam's dime. He even gives you money for rent/tacos. It's basically the HPSP, just backwards, with (much!) less obligated service time.

Additionally, all other negatives aside, look up tuition at the overseas schools and tell me again how you don't want to be <100k in debt.

Obviously you're free to "do you" and you should! I just thought I saw an opening where I could offer advice on something I knew a bit about. Carry on.

Best of luck with whatever you decide. Just make sure you do the research on the overseas schools. If it seems to good to be true, it is.

 

[heybubbaa]

Would these IAs be a roadblock if the OP did find a way to get into an international medical school if he wanted to match to a residency in the states?

 

[itsogre]

Would these IAs be a roadblock if the OP did find a way to get into an international medical school if he wanted to match to a residency in the states?

No you don't report infractions like these on residency apps unless you have an associated criminal record (I think)

 

[Goro]

I can't sugar coat this; your medical aspirations are in a state of deep stasis, if not actually over. At best, you will need several more years of exemplary behavior.

Your problem is that with a glut of applicants who don't have such black marks on their record, the attitude is "why take a chance on this guy?"

Anyone with any input on this would be very appreciated. I graduated my UG with a 3.3 GPA and a 38 MCAT, plenty of clinical hours (at least 1500) as a scribe. I have finished one year of post bac graduate with 3.6 trending upward.

These are stats that are obviously favorable for some medical schools, however I am very worried that my past will haunt me. My first 3 years of undergrad were spotty with a total of 7 conduct related discipline records (all minor offenses along the lines of disorderly conduct and two damage to property) one which sounds worse because it was labeled harassment, however it was an argument which I had with a friend that a concerned flatmate overreacted to and reported.

It is no coincidence that all of these incidents occurred before I switched majors to Bio/Pre medand 6/7 occurred during a particularly how should I say 'bumpy' semester after I was injured and sadly had to quit my intercollegiate soccer career and was roomed with equally "troublemaking" flatmates. Our life and leadership director who is in charge of IA has assured me that if he were contacted about these actions he is aware of my situation and would insist that I did graduate in good disciplinary standing with the college.

I feel that I have matured and can explain that to a person if they were to ask, but I am very worried that that many infarctions will totally blacklist me from even being considered to interview 🙁

What's worse is I applied last cycle and received several secondary applications, however I rushed through my AMCAS app and failed to specify a Yes check on that section. so now i'm in a dilemma because it looks like I was originally dishonest.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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[BombsAway]

I agree, thank you for your input. I will get in touch with a local recruiter to see what I can dig up. I have one that I was in touch with out of high school with thoughts of air force PJ, I'm sure he'd be more than willing to help me out. As for the international schools, there are a few in Europe which are not part of the carribean or St. George's trap. Decent residency matching from schools in Germany, UK, Ireland across all specialties. Most do not ask about school disciplinary record unless it was something bad enough to show up on transcripts (mine were not and in fact 4 of them have written directly in the record that my entire suite of roommates were disciplined as a whole. Obviously I had other ways to avoid those black marks, but it is very disheartening to have a promising career cut out before it even starts because of one semester with a terrible situation. I would be lying if I said I wasn't fairly bitter about it.

Don't talk to a recruiter until you've decided what you want to do and are ready to sign the paperwork. There aren't any questions you can't find the answers to online. Like a car salesman, it is important to remember who's interests they serve.

I don't know anything about the international schools, but I imagine you'd want to look into visa stuff and how interested they are in taking foreign students over their own (i'm sure you've done all this).

 

[gyngyn]

Would these IAs be a roadblock if the OP did find a way to get into an international medical school if he wanted to match to a residency in the states?

Their standards are very low.

 

[Dr_Jan_Itor]

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