Conflicting thoughts

[TigerWillow]

---

Members do not see this ad.

For people interested in non-surgical sterilization, Ark Sciences has developed an injectable sterilizing agent for male dogs. They've been doing trials in other countries, recently did one in the US, and are expecting FDA approval later this year.

http://www.arksciences.com/products.html

Does anyone else think we'll reach a point where veterinarians are doing predominantly non-surgical sterilization during our lifetimes?

If its cost effective and benefits outweigh risks. Maybe.

But not now.

 

[Trematode]

Um...
I thought you were not supposed to feed the troll.

 

[TigerWillow]

Um...
I thought you were not supposed to feed the troll.

HAHAHAHA. Well, I'm trying to LEARN something! Screw the troll.

 

[PetPony]

Assuming that it works fine in the body, if it is administered right, then I would think it would eventually be preferred over surgeries. If it is cheaper especially. Then there wouldn't be the need of anesthesia and the risks associated with it and other things that could go wrong during a surgery.

 

[August West]

Assuming that it works fine in the body, if it is administered right, then I would think it would eventually be preferred over surgeries. If it is cheaper especially. Then there wouldn't be the need of anesthesia and the risks associated with it and other things that could go wrong during a surgery.

The manufacturers of Neuticles (TM) are quaking in their boots...

Speaking of Neuticles, when I went to their website to confirm spelling because I am obsessive/anal retentive even when crackin' jokes, I saw this:

PermaStay -- Ear implantations for Canines (patent pending)

Ultra thin, lightweight, undetectable and humane - PermaStay Ear Implantation will restore bent, folded or broken ears on canines whose ears should stand straight but don’t.

Good for life - PermaStay Ear Implants is veterinarian tested and approved.

These will replace the [SIZE=+1]New!TempoStay® Ear Supports For Canines[/SIZE]

Imagine not having to bandage your puppies ears after cropping. Not having to worry about costly visits to the vet to change the dressing. Not having to worry about your pup ripping off the bandages or the discomfort and stress post operative bandaging creates for you and your beloved pet.

Or, imagine not having to tape your young adult canines ear because of a failed ear crop or post crop break? No more taping, no more discomfort or pet ear hair loss...

TempoStay External Ear Implants are here - and is revolutionizing post ear cropping bandaging and postings!

http://www.neuticles.com/

 

[NStarz]

The manufacturers of Neuticles (TM) are quaking in their boots...

Speaking of Neuticles, when I went to their website to confirm spelling because I am obsessive/anal retentive even when crackin' jokes, I saw this:

PermaStay -- Ear implantations for Canines (patent pending)

Ultra thin, lightweight, undetectable and humane - PermaStay Ear Implantation will restore bent, folded or broken ears on canines whose ears should stand straight but don’t.

Good for life - PermaStay Ear Implants is veterinarian tested and approved.

These will replace the [SIZE=+1]New!TempoStay® Ear Supports For Canines[/SIZE]

Imagine not having to bandage your puppies ears after cropping. Not having to worry about costly visits to the vet to change the dressing. Not having to worry about your pup ripping off the bandages or the discomfort and stress post operative bandaging creates for you and your beloved pet.

Or, imagine not having to tape your young adult canines ear because of a failed ear crop or post crop break? No more taping, no more discomfort or pet ear hair loss...

TempoStay External Ear Implants are here - and is revolutionizing post ear cropping bandaging and postings!

http://www.neuticles.com/

Here's a thought--how about you just don't crop your dog's ears?

 

[PetPony]

Here's a thought--how about you just don't crop your dog's ears?

👍

Our pit mix looks adorable with her floppy ears. And I love it how they stand up when she gets really excited. 😍

 

[TigerWillow]

Here's a thought--how about you just don't crop your dog's ears?

Yeah... I dunno who they are trying to market it for????

 

[PetPony]

I feel like this thread has ADD.

 

[cowgirla]

Until they develop a "vaccine" that will not only prevent reproduction, but also pyometra, ovarian cancer, mammary cancer, testicular cancer, reduce prostate dz, etc, I don't think it will ever fully take off in the world of "private" veterinary medicine. There's a lot more to spay/neuter with regards to benefits than just the obvious of "no babies."
And, just to throw it out there, there was a spay vaccine as early as 1997 I believe, but it never made it onto the veterinary market, for whatever reason.

 

[NStarz]

Until they develop a "vaccine" that will not only prevent reproduction, but also pyometra, ovarian cancer, mammary cancer, testicular cancer, reduce prostate dz, etc, I don't think it will ever fully take off in the world of "private" veterinary medicine. There's a lot more to spay/neuter with regards to benefits than just the obvious of "no babies."
And, just to throw it out there, there was a spay vaccine as early as 1997 I believe, but it never made it onto the veterinary market, for whatever reason.

This is what I was thinking, but less well-stated. 👍

 

[Wildlife woman]

Until they develop a "vaccine" that will not only prevent reproduction, but also pyometra, ovarian cancer, mammary cancer, testicular cancer, reduce prostate dz, etc, I don't think it will ever fully take off in the world of "private" veterinary medicine. There's a lot more to spay/neuter with regards to benefits than just the obvious of "no babies."
And, just to throw it out there, there was a spay vaccine as early as 1997 I believe, but it never made it onto the veterinary market, for whatever reason.

That's another point that I brought up in my interview. I was wondering if they expected to see a spike in reproductive diseases and they say that is a concern but there are many studies that need to be done before that can be answered.

 

[Tco87]

Until they develop a "vaccine" that will not only prevent reproduction, but also pyometra, ovarian cancer, mammary cancer, testicular cancer, reduce prostate dz, etc, I don't think it will ever fully take off in the world of "private" veterinary medicine. There's a lot more to spay/neuter with regards to benefits than just the obvious of "no babies."
And, just to throw it out there, there was a spay vaccine as early as 1997 I believe, but it never made it onto the veterinary market, for whatever reason.

That's true. Most of those are hormone related (I believe? I'm not even in school so please correct me if I'm wrong), so I assume that many of the developers of non-surgical sterilization are ultimately going to seek to reduce hormone levels to the point that the risk of developing pyometra, various cancers, etc. is dramatically reduced. I know that esterisol reduces testosterone levels by 50% or something like that but I don't know about any other methods.

 

[bbeventer]

 

[August West]

Until they develop a "vaccine" that will not only prevent reproduction, but also pyometra, ovarian cancer, mammary cancer, testicular cancer, reduce prostate dz, etc, I don't think it will ever fully take off in the world of "private" veterinary medicine. There's a lot more to spay/neuter with regards to benefits than just the obvious of "no babies."
And, just to throw it out there, there was a spay vaccine as early as 1997 I believe, but it never made it onto the veterinary market, for whatever reason.

Just to play devil's advocate... are the studies truly conclusive that spaying or neutering a dog actually helps prevent future health risks? I have read information that counters such an argument, which makes me somewhat wary of stating such conclusions as definitive facts to clients. I usually opt for the other compelling reasons to get their pets fixed.

Here is an excerpt from one such document:

On balance, it appears that no compelling case can be made for neutering most male dogs, especially immature male dogs, in order to prevent future health problems. The number of health problems associated with neutering may exceed the associated health benefits in most cases.

On the positive side, neutering male dogs
• eliminates the small risk (probably <1%) of dying from testicular cancer
• reduces the risk of non-cancerous prostate disorders
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• may possibly reduce the risk of diabetes (data inconclusive)

On the negative side, neutering male dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in medium/large and larger breeds with a poor prognosis.
• increases the risk of cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 1.6
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of progressive geriatric cognitive impairment
• triples the risk of obesity, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• quadruples the small risk (<0.6%) of prostate cancer
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract cancers
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

For female dogs, the situation is more complex. The number of health benefits associated with spaying may exceed the associated health problems in some (not all) cases. On balance, whether spaying improves the odds of overall good health or degrades them probably depends on the age of the female dog and therelative risk of various diseases in the different breeds.

On the positive side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 2.5 years of age, greatly reduces the risk of mammary tumors, the most common malignant tumors in female dogs
• nearly eliminates the risk of pyometra, which otherwise would affect about 23% of intact female dogs; pyometra kills about 1% of intact female dogs
• reduces the risk of perianal fistulas
• removes the very small risk (&#8804;0.5%) from uterine, cervical, and ovarian tumors

On the negative side, spaying female dogs
• if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis
• increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds
• triples the risk of hypothyroidism
• increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many associated health problems
• causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
• increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
• increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs spayed before puberty
• doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
• increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
• increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations

One thing is clear – much of the spay/neuter information that is available to the public is unbalanced and contains claims that are exaggerated or unsupported by evidence. Rather than helping to educate pet owners, much of it has contributed to common misunderstandings about the health risks and benefits associated of spay/neuter in dogs.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...amTlAi&sig=AHIEtbQ7PlvFNT9tczbdF_0DAVZyIFX22Q


Thoughts?

 

[Wildlife woman]

That is tricky but you have to remember that the main reason for spaying/neutering is population control and the possible health benefits are secondary. Based on your post I'm definitely interested in learning more about the health risks that come about due to spaying/neutering because I didn't realize there were so many possible negative consequences. Thanks for sharing the info!

 

[August West]

That is tricky but you have to remember that the main reason for spaying/neutering is population control and the possible health benefits are secondary. Based on your post I'm definitely interested in learning more about the health risks that come about due to spaying/neutering because I didn't realize there were so many possible negative consequences. Thanks for sharing the info!

You're welcome. As someone extremely dedicated to various local animal rescue efforts, I am a huge proponent of spay/neuter and TNR programs. Like you, I am curious about what is actually known about the health risks associated with such decisions. Knowledge is power, right?

 

[dyachei]

You're welcome. As someone extremely dedicated to various local animal rescue efforts, I am a huge proponent of spay/neuter and TNR programs. Like you, I am curious about what is actually known about the health risks associated with such decisions. Knowledge is power, right?

You've left out a major benefit for males, especially - behavior...which is the leading cause of death.

 

[vasoolraja]

post deleted

 

[August West]

You've left out a major benefit for males, especially - behavior...which is the leading cause of death.

That is why I stated that "I usually opt for the other compelling reasons to get their pets fixed." And for the record, I am far from a critic of spaying and neutering pets. Quite the opposite. I just feel that it is important to better understand some of the associated health risks/benefits. Like the article states:

One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal’s health and well-being.

 

[TigerWillow]

That is why I stated that "I usually opt for the other compelling reasons to get their pets fixed." And for the record, I am far from a critic of spaying and neutering pets. Quite the opposite. I just feel that it is important to better understand some of the associated health risks/benefits. Like the article states:

One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal's health and well-being.

Ah crap. So now I have to tell Mr. Steroid Douchebag all this. Merrrrrrrrrr

Mr. Steroid Douchebag is also the same kind of person who says "nah dude- ill just get rabies. Already spent a poopton on my workout equipment.

 

[August West]

Ah crap. So now I have to tell Mr. Steroid Douchebag all this. Merrrrrrrrrr

Mr. Steroid Douchebag is also the same kind of person who says "nah dude- ill just get rabies. Already spent a poopton on my workout equipment.

I've often found Mr. Steroid Douchebag and his fellow testosterone-filled gymrats to be pretty good pet owners. At least their dogs get plenty of exercise and they understand the importance of good nutrition. Now if you wanna talk about Ms. Getyerdogonaleash "you ain't livin' in the Barrio no more" Gonzales, well...

 

[twelvetigers]

I've often found Mr. Steroid Douchebag and his fellow testosterone-filled gymrats to be pretty good pet owners. At least their dogs get plenty of exercise and they understand the importance of good nutrition. Now if you wanna talk about Ms. Getyerdogonaleash "you ain't livin' in the Barrio no more" Gonzales, well...

Hmph.

 

[August West]

Hmph.

I guess it's a regional rant born out of frustration. If you live in Southern California and work in veterinary medicine you will see countless cases of dogs roaming the streets, getting hit by cars, procreating with neighbors and making our jobs much more difficult than it need be...

 

[wildcatj]

I guess it's a regional rant born out of frustration. If you live in Southern California and work in veterinary medicine you will see countless cases of dogs roaming the streets, getting hit by cars, procreating with neighbors and making our jobs much more difficult than it need be...

I think you might have a problem over there...

 

[breenie]

I guess it's a regional rant born out of frustration. If you live in Southern California and work in veterinary medicine you will see countless cases of dogs roaming the streets, getting hit by cars, procreating with neighbors and making our jobs much more difficult than it need be...

I think TT was reacting to your name choice, but I am reacting more to the racism. 😵

 

[TigerWillow]

I think TT was reacting to your name choice, but I am reacting more to the racism. 😵

I guess bc I live in SoCal, it's easy to laugh at what AugustWest said. I don't think he was saying anything against Hispanics. But yes, immigrants tend not to comply as well as other clients. Mostly because of the language barrier. This is what I've experienced and it is really difficult to tell someone who doesn't understand you that they need to have their dog on a leash (that really is the only example I can come up with. But, to be fair, mr. Roid doesn't understand me either :rolls eyes: )

 

[August West]

I think TT was reacting to your name choice, but I am reacting more to the racism. 😵

Yet not reacting to those stereotyping of steroid users?

Not all Mexican families living in Los Angeles elect to allow their dogs to run recklessly through the streets and are ignorant of Happy's ability to procreate until poor mama is experiencing distocia and near death's door at 3AM in the lobby of our ER. But enough do that it warrants acknowledgement of this cultural disconnect and a little therapeutic venting at times. Sorry if I offended.

 

[breenie]

Yet not reacting to those stereotyping of steroid users?

Not all Mexican families living in Los Angeles elect to allow their dogs to run recklessly through the streets and are ignorant of Happy's ability to procreate until poor mama is experiencing distocia and near death's door at 3AM in the lobby of our ER. But enough do that it warrants acknowledgement of this cultural disconnect and a little therapeutic venting at times. Sorry if I offended.

You see the same crap with white folks in all of the Midwestern states I've lived in. Not really a racial or cultural thing in that way-- it's an uneducated, poverty thing. You just happen to see if play out with people with brown skin in your area.

I understand the frustration, I think it's just directed incorrectly. 🙂

 

[PetPony]

You also have to remember, if they are first generation immigrants, that they are just not used to the same treatment of pets. My bf told me he's never walked a dog before I asked him to walk mine. It's not necessarily racist, just true that they might be treating them differently, because they don't always see them as pets like we do.

 

[August West]

You see the same crap with white folks in all of the Midwestern states I've lived in. Not really a racial or cultural thing in that way-- it's an uneducated, poverty thing. You just happen to see if play out with people with brown skin in your area.

I understand the frustration, I think it's just directed incorrectly. 🙂

Hmmm... The immigrants out here are for the most part just embracing and displaying behaviors from their cultural pasts. I have traveled to parts of Latin and Central America and societies there have a vastly different perspective on domestic animals than we do. I remember in Costa Rica there were countless street dogs everywhere just roaming about. The natives there viewed the poor animals as filthy creatures and would not let their children pet them and even kicked those that approached at times. In the rural villages, or barrios, there is little traffic and dogs are allowed to wander around off leash. It's a vastly different environment. It is just frustrating when these families come to places like Los Angeles and our busy roads and freeways and do not readily make efforts to change with the new environment until it is often too late for the pets.

As for the hillbillies, I really don't know as I've only lived near large metropolitan cities. What's their excuse??

 

[August West]

You also have to remember, if they are first generation immigrants, that they are just not used to the same treatment of pets. My bf told me he's never walked a dog before I asked him to walk mine. It's not necessarily racist, just true that they might be treating them differently, because they don't always see them as pets like we do.

Yes. I just posted similar sentiments below. Or is it now above. Anyway... 😀

 

[twelvetigers]

As long as we acknowledge that not every Rodriguez and Hernandez and Sanchez etc. should be written in the books as 'watch out - barrio trash'... lol.

 

[PetPony]

I guess my Martinez is good then..

 

[August West]

As long as we acknowledge that not every Rodriguez and Hernandez and Sanchez etc. should be written in the books as 'watch out - barrio trash'... lol.

Wholeheartedly agree. I did not mean to stereotype, only to acknowledge a profound problem that the animal welfare community faces here in southern Cali. Good and bad owners come in all shapes, colors and sizes. 😍

 

[dyachei]

That is why I stated that "I usually opt for the other compelling reasons to get their pets fixed." And for the record, I am far from a critic of spaying and neutering pets. Quite the opposite. I just feel that it is important to better understand some of the associated health risks/benefits. Like the article states:

One cannot ignore the findings of increased risk from osteosarcoma, hemangiosarcoma, hypothyroidism, and other less frequently occurring diseases associated with neutering male dogs. It would be irresponsible of the veterinary profession and the pet owning community to fail to weigh the relative costs and benefits of neutering on the animal’s health and well-being.

I didn't mean to imply that you didn't support. I just see it as a health benefit to not be euthanized due to behavior.

 

[sumstorm]

it's healthier, it makes them happier pets, it reduces on a LOT of problems (watch my cat From hell, or it's me or the dog).

Just thought I would point out that not all vets agree with this assertion, and that there are studies that contradict some of the health benefits, so it should still be individual decisions (though making the decision not to alter does not alleviate one from the responsibility of preventing inappropriate reproduction.) On the health aspects, there are studies indicating that there may be more behavior issues in neutered dogs (different nature though), that growth plates stay open longer in young alterations which results in larger animals which may be harder on joints over time, and for working dogs altering dogs prior to maturity may negatively impact tendons. Having said that, for most animals in most households spaying and neutering are reasonable and appropriate both for the animal's well being and for reducing the unwanted animal population.

 

[katsmiaow]

http://www.veterinarypracticenews.c...-could-help-control-feral-cat-population.aspx

http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/home/a...eive-1-million-grant#id5pVcnnKuw-KaJQN2l3dR0A

There are a lot more but I'm in class so I can't really look for them right now lol.

Just type in veterinary news and you will find a lot of sites that have info on this

Interesting articles -- thanks for posting!

 

[breenie]

As for the hillbillies, I really don't know as I've only lived near large metropolitan cities. What's their excuse??

Same as the immigrants, often. You can let dogs run amok in rural areas, you don't know why you need to castrate them, and your culture uses dogs often for utility (hunting, guarding). And if you're dirt poor, you probably aren't going to pamper the dog living on your porch.

Same effect in two different cultures.

 

[dyachei]

Just thought I would point out that not all vets agree with this assertion, and that there are studies that contradict some of the health benefits, so it should still be individual decisions (though making the decision not to alter does not alleviate one from the responsibility of preventing inappropriate reproduction.) On the health aspects, there are studies indicating that there may be more behavior issues in neutered dogs (different nature though), that growth plates stay open longer in young alterations which results in larger animals which may be harder on joints over time, and for working dogs altering dogs prior to maturity may negatively impact tendons. Having said that, for most animals in most households spaying and neutering are reasonable and appropriate both for the animal's well being and for reducing the unwanted animal population.

There are a few owners I talk to that have trained their intact male dogs very well - there is no aggression, no pulling on leashes, etc. These are the owners I am comfortable trusting enough with an intact dog - and only after talking to them thoroughly.

 

[TigerWillow]

Just thought I would point out that not all vets agree with this assertion, and that there are studies that contradict some of the health benefits, so it should still be individual decisions (though making the decision not to alter does not alleviate one from the responsibility of preventing inappropriate reproduction.) On the health aspects, there are studies indicating that there may be more behavior issues in neutered dogs (different nature though), that growth plates stay open longer in young alterations which results in larger animals which may be harder on joints over time, and for working dogs altering dogs prior to maturity may negatively impact tendons. Having said that, for most animals in most households spaying and neutering are reasonable and appropriate both for the animal's well being and for reducing the unwanted animal population.

I was just saying that it reduces behavioral problems. I'd like to see the info that says it doesn't. I just find it strange that unaltered male dogs are 3x more likely to bite than altered ones. And 9 times outta 10 the dog in line that's causing the MOST trouble are the unaltered ones. I also don't know if spaying a cat makes them a nicer cat, but it sure helped Larry! (Yes, it's a she).

I am open though to your info 🙂

 

[hopefulinva]

This isn't your proudest thread, SDN.

Going back to the original post - we're all students, here. We should all know that feeling we get when we have a question but we're not really sure if it's a dumb one, and we decide to ask it anyway; how would we feel if we were laughed out of the classroom? I don't know that I'd ever go back.

OP's member status is not pre-vet, which leads me to believe OP is pre-pre-vet; that data-gathering time when people are trying to figure out if this is the sort of thing they want to get in to. And even if OP was trolling - the best way to beat a troll is to take them at face value and give them a well-educated, reasonable answer. Because then what? They look like a douchebag for testing your very real, well-founded knowledge. And if they weren't - well. We did them the profound disservice of humiliating them.

 

[TigerWillow]

This isn't your proudest thread, SDN.

Going back to the original post - we're all students, here. We should all know that feeling we get when we have a question but we're not really sure if it's a dumb one, and we decide to ask it anyway; how would we feel if we were laughed out of the classroom? I don't know that I'd ever go back.

OP's member status is not pre-vet, which leads me to believe OP is pre-pre-vet; that data-gathering time when people are trying to figure out if this is the sort of thing they want to get in to. And even if OP was trolling - the best way to beat a troll is to take them at face value and give them a well-educated, reasonable answer. Because then what? They look like a douchebag for testing your very real, well-founded knowledge. And if they weren't - well. We did them the profound disservice of humiliating them.

Wait, am I missing something here?? In case you haven't noticed, we HAVE been discussing what the OP has brought up.

 

[hopefulinva]

Wait, am I missing something here?? In case you haven't noticed, we HAVE been discussing what the OP has brought up.

I did notice, thanks. I just don't think the means justify the ends, since the first few posts were mean enough to run our OP off the board.

 

[Maddiegirl]

Mr duggard (sp?) should be too. He's already produced a small city in Alaska.

🤣
👍👍👍

 

[nyanko]

Pregnancy is not a disease state.

Like hell it isn't.

 

[sumstorm]

I was just saying that it reduces behavioral problems. I'd like to see the info that says it doesn't. I just find it strange that unaltered male dogs are 3x more likely to bite than altered ones. And 9 times outta 10 the dog in line that's causing the MOST trouble are the unaltered ones. I also don't know if spaying a cat makes them a nicer cat, but it sure helped Larry! (Yes, it's a she).

I am open though to your info 🙂

This is just my suggestion, but rather than saying you are open to my info, why not do some research yourself and collect your own info? School libraries and google scholar and article databases are your friend, and it's a valuable, lifetime skill you can develop which will serve you well as a student and a vet!

I learned this material three years ago, and have a pretty busy schedule, but in just 2 minutes on google scholar, I came up with this:

Spain, CV. Scarlett, JM. Houpt, KA. Long-term risks and benefits of early-age gonadectomy in dogs. JAVMA 2004:224(3);380-387.

With this: Early-castrated males (but not females) showed more aggression towards humans in the household and more barking.

I would like to say I'd be happy to compile all the various articles for you, but I also am in classes and have plenty of my own work to do! The reality is there are very, very few topics in vet med that are so simple as to say 'do this because it cures all of this in every animal!'

 

[Vetaspirant]

Hi friends: Thanks for your responses. My question is genuine, and I request you to not treat my post as a troll. I really appreciate the posters who have tried to help. Some of your posts are very enlightening.

 

[Wildlife woman]

Hi friends: Thanks for your responses. My question is genuine, and I request you to not treat my post as a troll. I really appreciate the posters who have tried to help. Some of your posts are very enlightening.

Good you are back 🙂. Don't take the negative comments to heart. Just because your opinion isn't a popular one doesn't mean that it is any less valid

 

[bigkittinteef]

Like hell it isn't.