Confused about medschool

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Keystone

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Hi everybody,

I'm trying to figure out how why I have been unsucessful in gaining admission to medical school. I am a 30 year old non-traditional applicant who has been out of school for 7 years. Over the last 5 year I have been doing cancer vaccine research at a non-profit institute and coauthored 10 published research articles. I applied last June with to 32 schools, but all I have to show for it is a place on the alternate list for 3 schools. My MCAT score is 36O, and my undergraduate GPA is 3.6. I am frustrated and confused about my situation and am hoping that someone out there can give me meaningfull advice.
 
Hi everybody,

I'm trying to figure out how why I have been unsucessful in gaining admission to medical school. I am a 30 year old non-traditional applicant who has been out of school for 7 years. Over the last 5 year I have been doing cancer vaccine research at a non-profit institute and coauthored 10 published research articles. I applied last June with to 32 schools, but all I have to show for it is a place on the alternate list for 3 schools. My MCAT score is 36O, and my undergraduate GPA is 3.6. I am frustrated and confused about my situation and am hoping that someone out there can give me meaningfull advice.


Do you have any clinical experience?
 
Yes, but not recent enough. I voluteered at a hospital for 18 months while I was an undergraduate. I also worked in an emergency room for 6 months shortly after graduating. Although I work with medical doctors in my current job, it is in laboratory setting.
 
How are your interview skills and people skills?
 
What about LORs? One tepid LOR can sink an application - are you 100% positive yours were outstanding? Also, how many people did you have look at your PS? Sometimes in trying to show one's best side it unintentionally comes off as arrogant. This can also sink an application.

Agree with above on interpersonal/interview skills as well.

Obviously you applied early and broadly, so that's likely not the problem. With your numbers & research, obviously something else is amiss.
 
Some school have a time limitation on how many yrs ago the prerequisites to get in are taken. Good luck!
 
Good comments!

As far as the interviews have gone, I have felt postive about every single one. I believe my interview skills are adequate, as I have always been a sucessful interview when applying for jobs. I have no problem with smiling, keeping eye contact and speaking with confidence and sincerity. However, I will admit that I probably could have spent more time doing mock interview in order to hone skills.

Although I wasn't able to read all my letters of recommendation, I have been told by several interviewers that they were excellent, and I have no reason to believe otherwise.

I spent enormous amount of time writing and rewriting my personal statement, and had a lot of people read it. My initial problem writing it was that I was being too modest, so I don't think the final draft would come off as arrogant.

So far the only things that can think might have held me back are the amount of time I've been out of the classroom, my lack of recent clinical experience, and possibly my age. Do you guys think my "O" on the MCAT has been a major stumbling block?
 
So far the only things that can think might have held me back are the amount of time I've been out of the classroom, my lack of recent clinical experience, and possibly my age. Do you guys think my "O" on the MCAT has been a major stumbling block?

I personally don't think it was any of these things, and certainly not the "O". I don't know. This is a puzzler. It's nice to have clinical experience, but there are plenty of people who get in without it.

If I were you, I'd try to contact the schools. Some of them may just rattle off some random reasons to get you off their back, but if you ask enough schools and hear some common themes, you might have a clearer idea of what went wrong.

Sorry, man! I hope it goes better for you next round.

Another thought -- be sure to stay in constant touch with the schools you're waitlisted at. I personally think people in your position (strong app and numbers) can sometimes have to work harder to show their interest in schools, as some schools may turn you down thinking you wouldn't attend their school if accepted. You need to assure them that you would.
 
If you numbers are real along with the other statements you have provided, then I really have no clue why you have not been accepted.

Did you apply to very competitive programs or something with no in-state schools?

Like the other poster said, I would contact the schools you consider the most and try to set up meetings with the various Deans of Admissions. Usually they will give you some insight. In fact, I would ask them point blank with my outstanding numbers and research why I am not in.

Also, do you have a criminal record?

Gluck!
 
Have you called and asked the admissions office at the 3 schools you've been waitlisted as to why you weren't initially accepted? I know alot of school are willing to go over your file with you via phone to help give you an idea on what to strengthen.
 
Hi everybody,

I'm trying to figure out how why I have been unsucessful in gaining admission to medical school. I am a 30 year old non-traditional applicant who has been out of school for 7 years. Over the last 5 year I have been doing cancer vaccine research at a non-profit institute and coauthored 10 published research articles. I applied last June with to 32 schools, but all I have to show for it is a place on the alternate list for 3 schools. My MCAT score is 36O, and my undergraduate GPA is 3.6. I am frustrated and confused about my situation and am hoping that someone out there can give me meaningfull advice.

why medical school? why not graduate school? your publications show you love research, so did you apply MD/PhD? Being out of school for 7 yrs as others have said is not good in adcom eyes. your numbers are more than adequate. what schools did you apply to? if you applied to top 10 or 20 schools then it should be no surprise you didn't get in. however, if you applied to state schools (esp your own), then i have no clue why you aren't in already.
 
Another thought -- be sure to stay in constant touch with the schools you're waitlisted at. I personally think people in your position (strong app and numbers) can sometimes have to work harder to show their interest in schools, as some schools may turn you down thinking you wouldn't attend their school if accepted. You need to assure them that you would.

To the OP, WOW! That's enough to piss you off. I can't believe that you wouldn't get in. That makes the conspiracy theorist in me start to think that there might be some international web of elites that controls this whole process. Good luck. I hope you do better next time. :luck: :luck: :luck: :luck: :luck:

To cubbbie, at what point to you start to hassle schools? I got no love this year from anywhere, but held off calling to bug them thinking that I needed an interview before that was appropriate. Is this notion correct? Or should I have bugged them preinterview?
 
To cubbbie, at what point to you start to hassle schools? I got no love this year from anywhere, but held off calling to bug them thinking that I needed an interview before that was appropriate. Is this notion correct? Or should I have bugged them preinterview?

In terms of bugging schools, I personally think it's most important to do post-interview, and especially post-waitlist. I'm not sure it's as effective pre-interview, though I have known a few schools to respond to that as well. The only reason I would do it pre-interview, though, is if I had really great stats and was worried that the school would think I was using them as a back up. If I had average numbers, I would just write my love for the school in the secondary essays and hope for the best. With a few known exceptions, I don't think contacting them pre-interview would do much for you.

And yes, you are right to try to keep from "bugging" them. It's a fine line you walk between showing your sincere interest and just being obnoxious. Good luck next time around!
 
#1- Clinical experience is huge in older applicants. It's not that being older makes you less desirable, but they'll have questions about your motives and questions about how committed you are to the decision. If all else is fine (grades, scores, rec letters, essays and ECs), then it has to be clinical experience. As a non-trad applicant, I had to make the case for being sure this is what I wanted. No, *I* knew all of my motives were pure and that I was totally gung-ho about it-- but how would *they* know that? Well, I spent a year shadowing one physician (about 6-8 hrs per week) and another 8 months with a different physician (same number of hours per week)... all while working full time and doing some post-bac courses part time. My argument was -- look what I can do to make this happen. How on earth could any of you (AdComs) have a doubt that I would quit or not make it in med school? Basically, I made sure they couldn't answer that question! BTW-- the AMCAS essay might have been great for someone like the OP, but often without clinical vignettes it won't shine. So clinical experience gives you something to write about, gives you something to show as proof that you know what you're getting into (this is apparently a big deal for them), and perhaps most importantly, gives you the opportunity for a letter of rec that shows from a physician's POV how you are with colleagues and patients.

#2- Again, it's about how absolutely committed you are. CONTACT SCHOOLS!!! It shows them that you are interested in THEM. Your options for contact are (of course, be reasonable with the number of letters you send):
1. Pre-interview-- "petition to interview"-- this often is partly a "I love your school and it fits me because __; I fit it because ___; and oh, by the way, here's some great updates to my application ___ (fill in new grades, new experiences, progress updates on any of the ECs in your app which are still running, etc). Not to exceed one typed page.
2. General application updates (just what it sounds like, updates and "good news" that show you're adding a personal touch to the application process... makes the schools look more at you than at the silent ones who just fill out the primary and secondary apps)-- grades, ECs, etc etc. Updates can come at any time-- before an interview offer, after the offer but before the interview, after the interview, after the waitlist, etc.
3. Post-interview thankyous. BIG DEAL!!! Thank your interviewers (preferrably with hand-written notes unless your handwriting is horrid-- email is OK but less personal and clearly takes less thought and time) in carefully worded letters. Remind them of something you discussed (e.g. "I particularly enjoyed our discussion of ___ because ___") and tell them how your experience on interview day made you certain the school was for you. ALSO, send a letter to the Dean of Admissions or the AdCom thanking them again and adding any info you got out of the interview that solidified your feelings about the school being for you (could be researchers, clubs, volunteer opps, or other things unique to the school). Always mention your experience with the students and administration-- "everyone was so kind and helpful... I could see myself feeling very happy and comfortable here... etc etc"
4. Post interview hold and/or waitlist-- pretty much as above, update your apps with good news and such, reiterate your desire to attend the school, etc. Some schools tell you where you rank, others rank you and don't tell you, and still others don't rank you (supposedly)-- either way, updates to your app and a personal touch through letters WILL make a difference. Even at schools like VCU, where you get a rank and supposedly that's that, there is still a human commanding the acceptances... a candidate highly interested in the school would be chosen over a candidate who has been silent if they were aroudn the same place on the list.

BTW-- I was successful, and truly believe any of you can be also. It just takes a lot of hard work and dedication... and the ability to show that dedication to the schools without looking and sounding like a jackass. Be confident and certain, but don't be pompous. And above all, be grateful-- and say so in your correspondence.

Any questions, just PM me.
:luck:
FD
 
To the OP:

1) Where did you apply? Did you apply broadly to at least a dozen schools?

2) When did you apply? early June, or late? When did you take the MCAT (in relation to your app cycle)?

3) When was your app complete?

Something is missing here, something that might shed more light on your specific situation...on paper, you should have gotten in somewhere, but maybe you aimed too high or too narrowly...
 
I know it is frustrating, I had to apply to medical school 3 times before being accepted.

What I did between applications: Take some classes, they want to make sure you still can handle the academic environment.

Get a ton of clinical experience, I worked as a nurse aide. Working is better than volunteering because you have more responsibility and you learn more.

Be able to tell interviewers what you learned from your clinical experinences and how that made you decide that medicine is the path you want to follow.

Good Luck! :luck: 🙂
 
postbacker:

1)I applied to 32 allopathic schools, all over the US, including all the UCs (I'm a california resident)

2)I took the MCAT in August, 2005 and submitted my primary application in late June, 2006.

3)I probably lagged a little in completing my application (it took some time to pin down an old professor for a LOR). I don't remember exactly when my app was complete for each school.

I have what should be considered a lot of clinical experience. I think a valid issue that a lot of people have pointed out is that that experience is not recent. This has also come up in my interviews. Incidentally, I shadowed a PA for 8 hours before my last interview, but the interviewer didn't attach much value to that experience because I wasn't actually following an MD.

FDoRoML:

I appreciate your extensive comments. Your background as a non-trad makes your advice extra poignant. How were you able to find a doctor to shadow on a regular basis for such a long period of time? Also, I've found it difficult to extract any information or show my interest to the medical schools that have me on their alternate lists. How do you get in touch with people that can effect your application vs getting blown off by secretaries? Finally, why are thank-you cards so important? They seem like blantant brown-nosing on most occasions. Am I just being overly indignant?
 
postbacker:

1)I applied to 32 allopathic schools, all over the US, including all the UCs...

Which 32 schools? The top 32 in USNews? I don't buy it - why would anyone with your stats apply to 32 schools? Did you turn down any interview opportunities? How many interviews did you say you had???

You either have the worst luck ever or you are a troll.

I am leaning on this one...sniff, sniff...I think I smell a troll...why would a med school invite you to interview if they think your clinical or volunteer experiences are inadequate (or as you are saying, too dated)...you would have been weeded out after your primary or for sure your secondary...

Sniff...
 
Which 32 schools? The top 32 in USNews? I don't buy it - why would anyone with your stats apply to 32 schools? Did you turn down any interview opportunities? How many interviews did you say you had???

You either have the worst luck ever or you are a troll.

I am leaning on this one...sniff, sniff...I think I smell a troll...why would a med school invite you to interview if they think your clinical or volunteer experiences are inadequate (or as you are saying, too dated)...you would have been weeded out after your primary or for sure your secondary...

Sniff...

I'm not smelling troll from the OP at all. I think you need to have your nose checked.

OP -- I have no idea why you didn't get in. My best guess is that the adcomms probably see you as being on a research track rather than a medical school track. I can imagine them looking at your application and thinking that you'd be a great PhD, but that you haven't really shown interest in being a physician. I've heard that next to grades and MCAT (which don't seem to be your problem), clinical experience is the most important. You've proven that you're smart and hard-working. You've proven that you're an excellent researcher. What have you done to show that you can be a good doctor?

I'm sorry things haven't worked out for you yet. Hopefully, you'll get in this cycle, but if not, I think you can make your application a lot stronger by getting some clinical experience and some more recent volunteer experience. From one non-trad to another, good luck.
 
Let me make something clear: I am not posting for sympathy or to antagonize anyone. I am just looking for advice. I agree that my situation sounds unlikely. That is exactly why it is so confusing to me.
 
Let me make something clear: I am not posting for sympathy or to antagonize anyone. I am just looking for advice. I agree that my situation sounds unlikely. That is exactly why it is so confusing to me.

I will set aside my belief that you are NOT a troll...so something is really amiss with you.

You seem articulate enough in your posts, and you say that you had interviews (how many? and how many did you turn down?) suggesting you have an "interview" problem, poor interpersonal skills, etc.

Perhaps you could get some professional help in this regard...perhaps mock interviews would help you? Videotape yourself in a mock interview - you must be communicating something negative to your interviewers non-verbally - smugness? conceit? arrogance? or just plain unctuous behavior? I don't know...

Whatever is going on with you, nobody here can help you with the sketchy info you have given us...you never said where (outside of CA) you applied, for instance. If the 32 schools you applied to are all within the USNews Top 35, then you did not balance your apps very well...

That's the best I can offer...
 
1)I applied to 32 allopathic schools, all over the US, including all the UCs (I'm a california resident)

I agree, though - which schools specifically?

3)I probably lagged a little in completing my application (it took some time to pin down an old professor for a LOR). I don't remember exactly when my app was complete for each school.

But were any really, really late? I mean - like cutting it very close to deadlines?

I have what should be considered a lot of clinical experience. I think a valid issue that a lot of people have pointed out is that that experience is not recent. This has also come up in my interviews. Incidentally, I shadowed a PA for 8 hours before my last interview, but the interviewer didn't attach much value to that experience because I wasn't actually following an MD.

If you got interviews at these schools, then that probably indicates that there weren't any glaring problems with your GPA, MCAT, or LORs. Maybe your PS didn't really address very convincingly why you want to go to med school. I know that you said that you have good interview "skills" - you smile, keep eye contact, etc. But that's very different from having good interview content - can you make a good case as to why you want to go to med school? Do you have strong motivation?

In med school, sometimes, your motivation to become a doctor is the ONLY thing that can keep you going. If your motives don't seem strong, or you don't seem to have a clear idea of how hard it is to become a doctor, then it might not be a good interview, regardless of how well it seemed to go superficially. This is probably why they mentioned your "outdated" clinical experience. Clinical experience, for pre-meds, doesn't really matter (I actually had none) - but it's meant to show the adcom that, yes, you DO know how hard this road will be.

So...why do you want to go to med school? I'm curious. You can PM me if you don't feel like telling everyone in public.

As for finding a doctor to shadow - I don't know. Maybe volunteering at a teaching hospital, and asking around amongst the residents? Maybe asking a friend who is a doctor if he knows anyone who will let you work with them?
 
Just a thought, but how "cohesive" is your overall application? I'd take a quick look at your app (or have a friend or advisor do it) to make sure that there is nothing that could be perceived as a discrepancy. For example, it would be fine for candidate to state that her one goal in medicine was to become a pediatrician. But this could also raise a red flag if her application didn't show any prior experience with children.
 
Wow, how sad is my life that I'm just realizing you asked me a question? No, OK, not sad, just very very busy. It's probably moot at this point for you (hopefully!) but I'll reply just so others can see it, too. It's a long process and for many it spans multiple years trying.

1. Shadowing extensively - Honestly, all I had to do was ask. It sounds bizarre, I know. Partly I had an "in" working for a medical school, so the first doc I shadowed I sort of knew a little bit from the research side. For the second one, I just emailed the department head, introduced myself (my background, my plans for med school, what I wanted to get out of shadowing), and asked if he could recommend someone in his department willing to take me on. For the third doc I shadowed, only for a few months, I literally looked up practices (private) and called. I can't describe how much I hate cold calling people (I hate phones in general) but I talked to his secretary and she set me up a meeting intro with him... then I talked to him in person and he welcomed me to shadow him for as many hours as I wanted in clinic and the OR. You just have to ask. I also find that my status as a staff member helped me overcome HIPPA issues, but I think many large hospitals and academic centers are kind of weird about it now. The private practice doc I shadowed didn't seem to care (though he introduced me to his patients and made sure they were OK with me being there) about HIPPA and I actually got to do more (interviewing, minor procedures) there than in the internal med clinic at the academic hospital.

2. For showing interest on the wait list... hopefully you've already tailored your secondary and interview to things specific to that school. Let them know your'e interested in THEM, not just in going to medical school. Always write formal letters of interest, including any pertinent updates (new volunteer experiences? new grades? other accomplishments?) to your application, and a strong statement of why you think they fit you and why you think you fit them (not just what can they do for you, but if they let you in, what can you bring to them?). I wrote my letters in Word so they were well-formatted and then PDF'd them... emailed the PDF to the admissions email address (or directly to the Dean of Admissions, depending on the school and their availability). I just went to PDF for universal viewing and printing, plus I hate the idea that a document is "editable"! In the email itself, just address it to the AdCom or Dean directly (at many schools the Dean actually reads these emails without filtering through secretaries) and tell them you have important updates and "good news" regarding your application. They automatically add it to your file and show it to the AdCom on next eval of your app. Or, in the case where the Dean makes the decision at that point (as in VCU), they simply read it and consider it and might bump you up on the list.

3. Yes, I am very much against brown-nosing. But if you think about it from a professional standpoint... it's polite to thank them for the interview, and for their hospitality. Having been in the working world for 10+ years prior to med school, I can see the difference between a disgusting thank you note and a genuine one. What's your purpose for writing? Why, being professional (thanking them), reminding them of who you are and what you discussed (mention one thing you talked about in the interview that you found particularly interesting), and letting them know how the interview day impacted your decision (you found out great things about the school you didn't know before, you found the students and faculty to be great, etc). Always be specific, though. No generic "I like your school, please let me in" bullcrap. Seriously, thank you notes should come from the heart. If they didn't knock your socks off, don't be dishonest, but still be professional and find a way to thank them and mention a few good things about the experience. If they did knock your socks off then you'll have no problems finding something to write about. For good measure, I also always emailed the Dean after the interview day thanking them for the opportunity again and telling them that I enjoyed the interviews. I did NOT do this at the one school (ahem, no names) where I had a godawful interviewer who clearly had something against the older female applicant. S, no, it was not blatant brown-nosing, but an acknowledgment of all the work they put into the process. It is hellish for applicants, yes, but it is not an easy time for the AdComs and interviewers, either. It's a lot of work and imagine how the normal decent person would feel playing God - deciding who gets in and who doesn't when you clearly have at least 60% of your applicants truly deserving admission.

But I digress. Tha big point is all about professionalism. While it's a very personal thing for the applicant (you remember every stinking interview you ever went on), you need to remind them of who you are and also thank them for their work in the admissions process. They don't hear this enough, sadly. They do hear a lot of the indignation, though.🙄

Your best way of "getting in touch" with the people that will really have an effect on your application is through your thank you notes and letters of intent (intent to attend if given admission - this is where you also include your "good news" updates).

OK, really, that's way more than anyone probably wanted to know at this point, so I'll sign off for now. Again, always PM me if you want to discuss your personal situation... or if I don't respond quickly to a post like this one. Medical school lends itself to time warps, where you literally lose months at a time and might lose a thread for good unless you think to check for it specifically.

FD


FDoRoML:

I appreciate your extensive comments. Your background as a non-trad makes your advice extra poignant. How were you able to find a doctor to shadow on a regular basis for such a long period of time? Also, I've found it difficult to extract any information or show my interest to the medical schools that have me on their alternate lists. How do you get in touch with people that can effect your application vs getting blown off by secretaries? Finally, why are thank-you cards so important? They seem like blantant brown-nosing on most occasions. Am I just being overly indignant?
 
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