Conservative Discrimination

[Sushirolls]

I'm curious to hear from current students who might be politically somewhere in the libertarian to Biden's label of "Ultra MAGA" right.

Drawing on my own experiences from 10+ years ago, the academic environments to criticize conservative thought/views and most educators soap boxing from a left/liberal/marxist angle. At the medical training level it was sufficient enough to simply stay quiet and avoid political topics, or be vague if forced to engage in conversations. And simply emphasizing professionalism was always the winner.

These days the political rallying cries of doctors in groups, health systems, Big Box shops to email or put up fliers reflects a trend of politicization. National organizations of medical societies are clearly very left leaning political for most medical specialties. Various med students or residents over the recent years who made comments or did things that normally would have been expulsion were minimized because they were coming more from a left side angle for the unprofessionalism.

What I'm wondering, is if any on the interview circuits for residency of med school these days can't even "sneak by" and getting outed and not getting admissions, or falling lower on their rank lists?

Perhaps an LDS put their 2 year mission on their med school application and got rejected from the most liberal of med schools despite an amazing application?
Or you didn't put down the virtue signal of 'stolen land' on your email signature when everyone from your school does?
Or you had an interviewer who a odd pronouns and you didn't keep up?
You mentioned a hobby of hunting?
The possible list is endless.

So, current applicants be it for med school or residency? Are things worse than when I went through a decade longer ago?

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[psych_0]

Or you had an interviewer who a odd pronouns and you didn't keep up?

How do pronouns even come up in a one-on-one conversation? I feel like you almost have to go out of your way to use someone's pronouns in a one-on-one conversation..

 

[Asklepian]

In my experience, conservatives seem to think they're always the target of someone/something.
"They're coming for our guns."
"They're coming for our religion."
"They're coming for our 'freedom'."

Last I checked, conservatives were the one taking rights from trans kids, banning books, shutting down public health and science in the name of their political party, removing womens' rights to govern their own bodies, discounting the climate crisis in belittling ways, wanting to shut down public education, etc.

If medicine seems more politicized, it's by necessity. OB/GYNs can't help their patients make the right choices for their lives and bodies because conservatives keep trying to strip them away.

Psychiatrists and primary care docs can't work with their trans patients to make choices about how to align their body with their brain because conservatives think they know best.

All of us are threatened by the right's not only failure to acknowledge the climate crisis but the flat out war cry against it as a "hoax".

If there is a left lean to medicine (which I'm not sure there is), it is deservedly so. The ideals of self over others embodied by libertarianism and the social judgments and religious edicts touted by the modern right are at odds with a system of inclusive and just medicine.

 

[Sushirolls]

@Asklepian I'll side step responding to your comments as they are a distraction from the purpose of this thread, and I hope others avoid the click bait, too.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I don't know. While I consider myself either centrist or center-left, and acknowledge that both parties have their excesses...most psychiatrists lean left. Some of them, very left. Right-wing excesses are both stupid and evil, while leftists' are simply insane. As long as psychiatrists manage to respect the humanity and diversity of their patients and colleagues, it is valuable to have differing political and personal beliefs in a program or institution.

I do suspect, however, that there is some level of discrimination, and it might be more than what would be fair or reasonable in order to screen out the types of people who are going buck wild with politics. In either direction. For example - as a Black man, I have always personally taken a gradual, assimilationist approach to any racial issues I found myself involved in, and discussed this in interviews. Some may have seen this as cowardice, or naivete, or an unwillingness to be full-throatedly #BlackLivesMatter when real issues are at stake. I preferred, instead, to frame the issue as one of human beings not being treated fairly for reasons that "may or may not have had anything to do with race"; I was usually fairly successful with this approach.

It's my belief that it is for all of us to right the wrongs of our ancestors. Maybe your great-great-great grandfather owned slaves and you benefited from it. Fine. You're doing well for yourself: what are you doing to address people who are not doing well now? I'd ask the same question of a rich Black man whose father became successful and who was born on third base and ran like hell home.

No real idea how this is viewed in psychiatry these days; the political polarization and dysfunction that's taking place is not good for this country. I did wind up dropping like a rock on my rank list, though...

 

[jbomba]

I'm curious to hear from current students who might be politically somewhere in the libertarian to Biden's label of "Ultra MAGA" right.

Drawing on my own experiences from 10+ years ago, the academic environments to criticize conservative thought/views and most educators soap boxing from a left/liberal/marxist angle. At the medical training level it was sufficient enough to simply stay quiet and avoid political topics, or be vague if forced to engage in conversations. And simply emphasizing professionalism was always the winner.

These days the political rallying cries of doctors in groups, health systems, Big Box shops to email or put up fliers reflects a trend of politicization. National organizations of medical societies are clearly very left leaning political for most medical specialties. Various med students or residents over the recent years who made comments or did things that normally would have been expulsion were minimized because they were coming more from a left side angle for the unprofessionalism.

What I'm wondering, is if any on the interview circuits for residency of med school these days can't even "sneak by" and getting outed and not getting admissions, or falling lower on their rank lists?

Perhaps an LDS put their 2 year mission on their med school application and got rejected from the most liberal of med schools despite an amazing application?
Or you didn't put down the virtue signal of 'stolen land' on your email signature when everyone from your school does?
Or you had an interviewer who a odd pronouns and you didn't keep up?
You mentioned a hobby of hunting?
The possible list is endless.

So, current applicants be it for med school or residency? Are things worse than when I went through a decade longer ago?

Where does your (not infrequent) politicization of SDN fall into all of this?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

How do pronouns even come up in a one-on-one conversation? I feel like you almost have to go out of your way to use someone's pronouns in a one-on-one conversation..

They don't it's part of the weird fantasy world Sushi keeps living in where white male right wingers are routinely persecuted for breathing the same air as the LGBTQIA biracial DEI hire who just had a secret third term abortion yesterday.

Meanwhile neo-Nazis/white nationalists are trucking down in UHauls and marching down the streets of Nashville yelling at kids and basically just being a-holes...seems super persecuted . Bet it's fake news though.

What Can a City Do When Neo-Nazis Start Marching Down Its Streets?

The brazen appearance of white supremacist groups in Nashville left the city grappling with how to confront hateful speech without violating First Amendment protections.

www.nytimes.com

https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/08/us/patriot-front-white-nationalist-group/index.html

 

[dl2dp2]

There is a bias in the academe. Sometimes self-consciously so. When I was interviewing for jobs I get a vibe that people are bending over backward to make sure they said the things they thought you wanted to hear (i.e. we are a "blue island" in a red state), imagining that to recruit people they have to say these things. For me, this generated negative feelings on the part of the department as it felt fake and political.

I stopped playing games now and ask for a compensation plan from the first Zoom call. Your politics is irrelevant to me moving to you.

The other interesting thing that I've discovered traveling around the US is that basically if you work for academia, it's a system of "trickling down", where you have major academic centers having trainees scattering around other major centers, and the group all live and work in very similar mainline suburbs with moderate values, good schools and shop at local Wholefoods. The actual geographical location doesn't really even matter. Basically, you always live in some "copy" of Newton MA, Westchester County, Irvine, etc. The cultural differences between different cities are minimal if you live in an academic bubble. The people are very predictable, which is a major drawback to academia, IMO.

I think there are lots of conservative-leaning faculty in academia but they are usually reticent. Conservative-leaning psychiatrists are common, and they typically are running a practice, etc. more entrepreneurial activities as they temperamentally resent the academic vibe. That being said, they don't share unless you volunteer your political beliefs that are somewhat more moderate than the typical party line.

 

[michaelrack]

I'm curious to hear from current students who might be politically somewhere in the libertarian to Biden's label of "Ultra MAGA" right.

Not a student; but for the last 5 years or so I have tried to avoid talking about politics or giving any inclination of my political leanings in any type of work or public setting. (although I am sure someone can look through my post hx and find a time I messed up)

 

[Sushirolls]

Where does your (not infrequent) politicization of SDN fall into all of this?

Some where in the spectrum of counterpoint to the echo chamber of uniform beliefs - where its needed to shine a tiny light on the darkness of what the echo chamber is. Or at worst, a different flavor of disappointment I'm trying to draw attention to.

 

[comp1]

Well, I hope the admins don't get to locking or deleting this thread too quickly. It's actually okay for things to get heated sometimes. So yes...academics is still progressive and psychiatry is still progressive relative to other medical specialties. You will see pronouns in bios or email signatures. I've never seen a native land statement in either, but I imagine they might exist somewhere. I've seen students match who mentioned hunting. I've certainly seen many LDS residents. What I'm actually seeing that seems relatively new is more conservatively inclined students and residents asking for religious accommodations to not be involved with education regarding abortion or transgender care. It's complicated as these have historically been considered core components of education.

 

[Sushirolls]

Interesting. Thanks for the contribution. Glad you've seen hunting, LDS. I wouldn't have dared in my younger years to put down hunting and avoided it and other topics on applications. Have you seen any other typical cultural elements that resonate conservative on applications? I wonder if those hunting students matched?

Interesting, on the accommodations for religion. Anyone else seeing this in students or residents in their area?

 

[jbomba]

Some where in the spectrum of counterpoint to the echo chamber of uniform beliefs - where its needed to shine a tiny light on the darkness of what the echo chamber is. Or at worst, a different flavor of disappointment I'm trying to draw attention to.

Fair enough. I don't even disagree with some of your political positions; I would say I'm very solidly independent/albeit extremely anti-Trump. But I would say everything in America has gotten so political over the last 8 years and I feel like people are so much more apt to drag politics into things which not only don't require it, but take away from the essence of the thing that politics is being dragged into. This happens from both sides far too frequently.

 

[Sushirolls]

And that's part of why I bring up this thread to see if one population may be harmed in career aspirations. My experiences are outdated from 10+ years ago. Hence, current students and resident applicants who are conservative; please chime in. Or if you are an interviewer comment if you see things that clearly make you identify applicants as conservative.

 

[jbomba]

Can only speak for myself, but I am turned off to any applicant who wears their politics on their sleeve at the time of an interview, right or left.

 

[Sushirolls]

Can only speak for myself, but I am turned off to any applicant who wears their politics on their sleeve at the time of an interview, right or left.

Fair. But there's also gradations of that. There are subtle tells that can give away a person. For instance:

hunting = conservative
LDS / 2 year mission = conservative
ROTC = conservative
FFA = conservative
Certain visible tatoos = conservative

Peacecorp = liberal
Americorp = liberal
Students for abortion = liberal
Yoga = liberal
Certain piercings or hair colors = liberal
Certain visible tatoos = liberal

There are simple things people could put in the 'hobbies' 'recreation' area of applications that are tip offs. Now is every hunter a conservative no? For example: A neighborhood I used to live in, with a bit of acreage in riparian area, a retired, very liberal professor, who was also LDS, walked around with his wife up/down the street for exercise with a Glock on his hip. Cougar/coyote concerns. So yes, these generalizations aren't 100% truth, but high enough percentages that people recognize them.

 

[clozareal]

Hunting is one of the least offensive out of the conservative stereotypes in my opinion. I've been hunting/shooting since I was 10 years old and I didn't even know it was conservative until I went to a liberal college.

Conservative/libertarian of today is not the same as 8-10 years ago. Same thing with liberals/progressives. I think what you are getting at is a philosophical conflict between tradition as a framework for societal stability and protection from chaos versus freedom to expand beyond that stuffy framework.

There's a coddling of the American mind nowadays. I treat professors from a respected local university who feel as though they are walking on eggshells around students because the professors can't speak honestly, an students can't tolerate words that don't align with their preformed ideas. The whole point of higher education is to develop flexibility in critical thinking and be able to tolerate different ideas. Cancel culture is huge in societies now and any one wrong action or word immediately vilifies the public to that individual. I feel like society has gotten more borderline in this way.

When I was on the resident selection committee, I didn't care if they were part of ROTC or 4-H or worked for the NRA as long as they had a passion and curiosity about something and not rude/aggressive to cause problems in the residency program with each other, with the faculty, or with patients. I didn't agree that those who fail step 1/2 or their clerkships because of discrimination hardship reasons should have gotten an interview at our program though but I did get silenced there for not being "woke" enough.

 

[clozareal]

There are simple things people could put in the 'hobbies' 'recreation' area of applications that are tip offs. Now is every hunter a conservative no? For example: A neighborhood I used to live in, with a bit of acreage in riparian area, a retired, very liberal professor, who was also LDS, walked around with his wife up/down the street for exercise with a Glock on his hip. Cougar/coyote concerns. So yes, these generalizations aren't 100% truth, but high enough percentages that people recognize them.

This is not the same social freedom afforded to minorities even if the legal freedom to open carry is there.

 

[jbomba]

Hunting is one of the least offensive out of the conservative stereotypes in my opinion. I've been hunting/shooting since I was 10 years old and I didn't even know it was conservative until I went to a liberal college.

Conservative/libertarian of today is not the same as 8-10 years ago. Same thing with liberals/progressives. I think what you are getting at is a philosophical conflict between tradition as a framework for societal stability and protection from chaos versus freedom to expand beyond that stuffy framework.

There's a coddling of the American mind nowadays. I treat professors from a respected local university who feel as though they are walking on eggshells around students because the professors can't speak honestly, an students can't tolerate words that don't align with their preformed ideas. The whole point of higher education is to develop flexibility in critical thinking and be able to tolerate different ideas. Cancel culture is huge in societies now and any one wrong action or word immediately vilifies the public to that individual. I feel like society has gotten more borderline in this way.

When I was on the resident selection committee, I didn't care if they were part of ROTC or 4-H or worked for the NRA as long as they had a passion and curiosity about something and not rude/aggressive to cause problems in the residency program with each other, with the faculty, or with patients. I didn't agree that those who fail step 1/2 or their clerkships because of discrimination hardship reasons should have gotten an interview at our program though but I did get silenced there for not being "woke" enough.

American youth standing up for what's right...

 

[clozareal]

American youth standing up for what's right...

I like how the person assumed that he knew nothing about Mexican heritage or understanding Mexican culture based solely on what he was wearing (if the edit wasn't misleading of course).

 

[Candidate2017]

Drawing on my own experiences from 10+ years ago, the academic environments to criticize conservative thought/views and most educators soap boxing from a left/liberal/marxist angle.

I think there are lots of conservative-leaning faculty in academia but they are usually reticent.

The left soapbox is real in academia. A higher proportion of the left gives unsolicited political commentary out of the blue. It was out of control in residency. If I could have, I would have told them to STFU I'm here to learn psychiatry not listen to your political rant du jour.

There also tends to be less repercussion for voicing left opinions on abortion, guns, immigration, race, climate, etc.

For example: A neighborhood I used to live in, with a bit of acreage in riparian area, a retired, very liberal professor, who was also LDS, walked around with his wife up/down the street for exercise with a Glock on his hip. Cougar/coyote concerns. So yes, these generalizations aren't 100% truth, but high enough percentages that people recognize them.

Lots of people on the left have guns, just like lots of people on the right have had abortions. One thing about guns I've learned from patients is that if you've ever used a gun to to criminally kill or injure someone, the odds are high that you don't identify as right leaning. It's right up there with shooting a gun sideways.

There's a coddling of the American mind nowadays. I treat professors from a respected local university who feel as though they are walking on eggshells around students because the professors can't speak honestly, an students can't tolerate words that don't align with their preformed ideas. The whole point of higher education is to develop flexibility in critical thinking and be able to tolerate different ideas.

Personally, I'd ask those profs to reflect on whether they themselves laid the groundwork for a coddling environment, whether they see any parallels between profs & their students and Dr. Frankenstein & his monster, whether tenure is a form a coddling. Nah, who are we kidding. It's Friday, just give em a note for an emotional support llama and see em when they get back from sabbatical.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

I believe I am on the left side of the left side. Nonetheless, as a cishet white male with LDS family members and who grew up in Ohio, I have noticed that people tend to assume I am conservative. I have been accused of holding conservative ideals and of being "offensively conservative" by residency peers. I'm in a part of the country where nobody would ever admit to being conservative, for what it's worth. I was the only cishet while male in my residency class. Some people seemed genuinely offended to learn I wasn't at least Jewish. Of course, none of these were people whose opinions I cared to hear.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My own political stance was always a little to the liberal side and I was pretty comfortable with that in academia and elsewhere up until about 10 years ago when it seemed like everything shifted left and I learned that I had to hide my middle of the road opinions as the voiced opinions from colleagues became more stridently and vocally left. i have always done my best to keep my opinions about issues to myself in professional arenas but it becomes difficult with the current climate of are you with us or against us and when I don’t vocalize it is assumed that I agree with every radical opinion that is voiced which I don’t so it feels kind of icky.

 

[DS2027]

Currently attend a professional school. I’m more left leaning. Although, there are certainly some policies/controversial topics that I sit more in the middle on. However, during my education I’ve only had maybe one professor kind of point out her stance on politics in an indirect way. Mainly because they try to ride a fine line of not offending anyone. Her statement was ‘not to get political not should it come off political, but covid vaccine…(blah blahblah)” …..certainly isn’t something that should be political but it definitely is because a decent amount of conservatives have a conspiracy about it.

I will say I think it’s funny when republicans are crying about their feeling of being discriminated against…when they are the ones with discriminatory policies. Seems they are fine with it as long as it doesn’t impact their life.

 

[mistafab]

I'm a right-leaning independent (previously left leaning). It really depends where you are.

I'm in an academic environment in a stellar program in the south. Being right leaning is not an issue or problem here.

At a flyover country top academic institution, being right leaning or LDS was definitely not an issue - and faculty were well mixed. Though, residents there were far more left leaning.

I'm assuming if being right-leaning is important to you, you will not apply or bother interviewing at UCSF, portland/seattle, etc etc. Just like if therapy is really important to you - dont go to a program that glazes over it and emphasizes biological psychiatry. There's enough programs out there that you can find your fit anywhere.

Edit: also, what happened to just being cordial? I have what you might consider a raving lunatic communist MD friend (vegan btw) - we are still good buddies and agree on many topics. Perhaps since politics is not my identity it doesn't seem to be a big issue for me.

 

[Bartelby]

I am generally on the left politically but really don't talk about politics at work. I am, as another poster above mentioned, a cishet white male. I also have a southern accent and grew up very conservative in a deeply conservative area, so I suspect some people who see me not talking about politics may make assumptions that I am conservative. I have worked in a lot of very liberal places and have never had any issue. If you make discussing politics openly a part of your professional persona, voicing conservative views will cause you a lot more problems in those settings than will voicing liberal views.

It's worth keeping in mind, though, that in recent years republican policies have directly impacted a lot of vulnerable groups. While the left has "cancel culture," anti-police attitudes and platforms, etc. (which I don't agree with), the right has adopted a lot of policies that get up close and personal to really impact individual lives. For example:

The travel ban affected millions of people living in the U.S. who could no longer have their families come visit even for a weekend. It was an automatic and indefinite ban, even though many banned people posed very low risk and had been to the U.S. without issue many times. Those millions of people will remember conservatives cheering this kind of callous and overtly cultural/religious banning.

Discarding Roe has meant that many people lost the right to make decisions about their own pregnancy, with state policy forcing either unwanted birth or traveling far from home for an abortion. This appears to be rooted largely in the religious beliefs of elected conservative leaders. As doctors, many of us believe that decision should instead be left to the patient and their provider.

Making attempts to ban gender-affirming care strips the person and their family of the ability to make those decisions on their own. It also pours unwanted negative attention onto a group who, let's be honest, already face enough challenges in society without politicians piling on more. And whether or not you like things like listing pronouns, if you bring it up in a critical or mocking way it is going to make some people feel unwelcome (in a way that is, in my opinion, totally unnecessary).

For some reason conservatives became extremely anti-mask during the pandemic. In fairness, liberals took it too far in my opinion, closing schools for too long and insisting on masking beyond when it was really needed. Many healthcare providers remember, though, dealing with anti-mask people who caused major disruptions in clinics and hospitals by refusing to take a simple step (masking in a healthcare facility) that was valuable for at least a meaningful chunk of the pandemic.

I could go on, but in brief I think you are right that openly advocating in the workplace for things like the travel ban, banning abortions, removing the option for gender-affirming care, and rejecting things like masking or vaccinating during a pandemic will cause issues. I think if conservatives avoid these kind of lightning-rod issues though that they can still do fine even in very liberal academic circles.

I also have pointed out a lot of what I view as negatives of conservativism in recent years; I think there are also real positives that can add to the dialogue in academic settings, and that having liberals and conservatives co-exist in a civil way in these settings is in all of our best interest. We need a lot more of people across the aisle getting to know and care about one another rather than the social-media fueled echo chamber we all too often get.

 

[Sushirolls]

Come on folks. Let's try to stick to the purpose of this thread post, a spotlight on discrimination libertarian or conservative applicants to med school, residency or fellowship might have experienced because of their views or culture that clearly identify them as conservative.

So to reframe this as cultural competency (or the accepted vernacular of victim speak) conservatives are now a minority in medicine which makes them a vulnerable population and its time to highlight their struggles, and perhaps discrimination for their political views.

This isn't meant to be CNN headline rehash of things liberals are contrary to conservatives about. We all know the issues liberals are concerned about, as they are all over social media, the news, SDN, etc. Posting them up in this thread serves to derail in a tit for tat on abortion, guns, trans, etc.

Focus people. Focus.

 

[PsyDr]

"nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

 

[Crayola227]

Come on folks. Let's try to stick to the purpose of this thread post, a spotlight on discrimination libertarian or conservative applicants to med school, residency or fellowship might have experienced because of their views or culture that clearly identify them as conservative.

So to reframe this as cultural competency (or the accepted vernacular of victim speak) conservatives are now a minority in medicine which makes them a vulnerable population and its time to highlight their struggles, and perhaps discrimination for their political views.

This isn't meant to be CNN headline rehash of things liberals are contrary to conservatives about. We all know the issues liberals are concerned about, as they are all over social media, the news, SDN, etc. Posting them up in this thread serves to derail in a tit for tat on abortion, guns, trans, etc.

Focus people. Focus.

Dance, puppets, dance. Tell me what I want to hear or don't speak at all.

 

[Celexa]

@Sushirolls I'm confused by your fixation on the idea hunting is something liberals disapprove of. Most liberals aren't vegetarians and fully understand meat comes from killing animals. I've got no quarrel with responsible hunters and neither does anyone I know. Did someone from PETA steal your lunch money in elementary school?

 

[Sushirolls]

I'll PM you personally on hunting as an issue. Hunting is merely an example, not the only, and not pertinent to this thread. I'm really trying to avoid and discourage derailment with side topics in this thread. Is the PETA stealing lunch money comment really necessary?

@Crayola227 Please speak, but create a different thread for things that aren't pertinent to the purpose of this thread. The derailment of threads is typically the natural course on these social forums, but I do feel this topic is important enough, I'd hope people could respect that, and my drawing attention towards not derailing might be honored - instead of ridiculed.

*I am as guilty as most of thread derailments, but try to at least wait until some meat addressing the thread topic has been achieved.

 

[nexus73]

Do we say houseless or homeless in this program?
================================================================

When presenting patients does it sound like this:

Mary is a 24 year old female with past medical history of hypothyroidism and past psychiatric history of recurrent major depressive disorder admitted with SI.

-or this-

Mary is a 24 year old caucasian cis-gender heterosexual woman with pronouns she/her; with past medical history of hypothyroidism and past psychiatric history of recurrent major depressive disorder admitted with SI.

And if you don't say it like the 2nd example, is that a problem?

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

Do we say houseless or homeless in this program?
================================================================

When presenting patients does it sound like this:

Mary is a 24 year old female with past medical history of hypothyroidism and past psychiatric history of recurrent major depressive disorder admitted with SI.

-or this-

Mary is a 24 year old caucasian cis-gender heterosexual woman with pronouns she/her; with past medical history of hypothyroidism and past psychiatric history of recurrent major depressive disorder admitted with SI.

And if you don't say it like the 2nd example, is that a problem?

I've certainly experienced peers screaming for having said the first. I also agree that the way people describe those who live on the streets is a very sensitive topic in the program I went to. Invariably, one would offend someone by saying homeless, undomiciled, housing insecure, houseless, street dwelling, or living in a tent under an overpass. Somehow, some way, those who complained were under the impression we were required to use one or the other of those phrases and anything else was abusive language.

This topic in particular was one that some people tried to use to sus out who they thought wasn't left-leaning enough. It was my preference to specify where they actually lived / slept that was one thing people were truly horrified by. How dare I say they live under an overpass and have heroin use disorder and not schizophrenia!

 

[Sushirolls]

Did anything ever materialize from those complaints? I.e. consequences? Residents get negative evaluations, or told to amend notes, etc.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

Did anything ever materialize from those complaints? I.e. consequences? Residents get negative evaluations, or told to amend notes, etc.

Yes. I ended up being formally disciplined because my language was found to have created a distraction (read: a peer wrote a formal complaint every day for a year until the faculty decided I needed a slap on the wrist and to be told what it was the peer was complaining about). The official stance was that I was correct in what I had said, just that it derailed the peer's ability to focus. My punishment is that I did not have to attend didactics for three days. I have to report it every time I apply for licensure or admitting privileges. Ultimately that peer did not graduate.

 

[Sushirolls]

Wow. I'm sorry. I had hoped people's experiences shared here would be only at a subjective conjecture level of possible discrimination, but that truly is professional level harm.

 

[Bartelby]

Sorry to hear that happened to you, it sounds like a massive failure on the part of the faculty.

As an attending I would much rather have the resident describe exactly how a patient is living. Homeless can mean living with their parents because they don't have a home, couch surfing with friends, living in their vehicle including an RV, consistently finding shelter with various shelters or agencies, occasionally sleeping on the street, consistently sleeping on the street, or various other combinations. It is bizarre to penalize you for gathering that clearly relevant bit of social history, and frankly exploring specifics of the person's living situation shows more cultural competence than applying any broad label would.

 

[ObsequiousAplomb]

Sorry to hear that happened to you, it sounds like a massive failure on the part of the faculty.

As an attending I would much rather have the resident describe exactly how a patient is living. Homeless can mean living with their parents because they don't have a home, couch surfing with friends, living in their vehicle including an RV, consistently finding shelter with various shelters or agencies, occasionally sleeping on the street, consistently sleeping on the street, or various other combinations. It is bizarre to penalize you for gathering that clearly relevant bit of social history, and frankly exploring specifics of the person's living situation shows more cultural competence than applying any broad label would.

Thanks. And yeah, I know. That's why I presented and documented it that way. It's also why the program tried to have my back.

It's unfortunate that malignant residents will write complaints about peers they don't like and that the complaint system protects the ones complaining about clearly good behavior. I'd rather they pushed the peer out sooner than they did, but I can't fix that. It doesn't help that it was more than one who they pushed out for acting that way. (3 of the starting 8 didn't graduate).

 

[sloop]

I am not sure that my coresidents ever really knew the extent of my conservativeness. I think this was a byproduct of a few things: I tend to be more of a libertarian conservative rather than a religious/social conservative, I hold some heterodox positions on some issues that are more likely to come up in the context of residency, and I generally try to avoid getting into political debates with colleagues. I did sometimes drop some hints (regarding things like familiarity with firearms or the fact that I listen to country music) because I was curious how they would react. Nobody seemed to judge me negatively.

There were a couple of situations where we discussed particular issues in the context of something clinical (gender dysphoria, crime in the context of my interest in forensics) but, to their credit, they have always been open-minded and interested in finding areas in which we can agree on some middle ground. My residency program itself had a bunch of high profile faculty who publicly disagreed on hot button issues, so I think it is also a credit to my program for allowing that kind of disagreement.

I think there was much more open discussion of policy in forensic fellowship, and I do think my cofellows perceived me as conservative (at least relative to themselves and the rest of the program). Again, I think they were really great about it and the program itself seemed to encourage different viewpoints as long as you could defend them.

I now supervise residents from a totally different program, though, and there is a reputation of some intolerance of conservative views from the residents and the program itself. I have heard bad stories of residents reporting attendings for saying things that were not felt to be politically correct. This has actually led to many of the attendings refusing to work with the residents. That said, I haven’t had a bad experience despite the fact that I routinely bring up potentially hot button topics for teaching purposes (forensic evaluations in death penalty cases/ethics of participation in execution and what constitutes participation, psychiatric ethics regarding third party evaluations/Goldwater Rule/public commentary about Trump/Biden, ethics of participation in intelligence or law enforcement activities/APA guidelines on participation in torture, potential constitutional challenges to red flag laws in light of NYSRPA v. Bruen and U.S. v. Rahimi, etc.). To this point I have only gotten positive comments about my teaching from these very liberal residents, though that may be because I try to challenge them to think about these topics without reference to any particular policy preference.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

Come on folks. Let's try to stick to the purpose of this thread post, a spotlight on discrimination libertarian or conservative applicants to med school, residency or fellowship might have experienced because of their views or culture that clearly identify them as conservative.

So to reframe this as cultural competency (or the accepted vernacular of victim speak) conservatives are now a minority in medicine which makes them a vulnerable population and its time to highlight their struggles, and perhaps discrimination for their political views.

This isn't meant to be CNN headline rehash of things liberals are contrary to conservatives about. We all know the issues liberals are concerned about, as they are all over social media, the news, SDN, etc. Posting them up in this thread serves to derail in a tit for tat on abortion, guns, trans, etc.

Focus people. Focus.

lol I finally read that other thread I now understand the source of this ridiculousness.

The person couldn't have matched to his/her what, 23rd ranked program because they're terrible at interviewing....

We all know the issues you're concerned about, they're all over SDN cause you can't help but mention them every other response to any random thread.

 

[Ceke2002]

Can only speak for myself, but I am turned off to any applicant who wears their politics on their sleeve at the time of an interview, right or left.

As a former psych patient, as long as it doesn't interfere with a Doctor's ability to treat me as an individual patient, I honestly couldn't care less about their political persuasion.

 

[betamale]

I'm curious to hear from current students who might be politically somewhere in the libertarian to Biden's label of "Ultra MAGA" right.

Drawing on my own experiences from 10+ years ago, the academic environments to criticize conservative thought/views and most educators soap boxing from a left/liberal/marxist angle. At the medical training level it was sufficient enough to simply stay quiet and avoid political topics, or be vague if forced to engage in conversations. And simply emphasizing professionalism was always the winner.

These days the political rallying cries of doctors in groups, health systems, Big Box shops to email or put up fliers reflects a trend of politicization. National organizations of medical societies are clearly very left leaning political for most medical specialties. Various med students or residents over the recent years who made comments or did things that normally would have been expulsion were minimized because they were coming more from a left side angle for the unprofessionalism.

What I'm wondering, is if any on the interview circuits for residency of med school these days can't even "sneak by" and getting outed and not getting admissions, or falling lower on their rank lists?

Perhaps an LDS put their 2 year mission on their med school application and got rejected from the most liberal of med schools despite an amazing application?
Or you didn't put down the virtue signal of 'stolen land' on your email signature when everyone from your school does?
Or you had an interviewer who a odd pronouns and you didn't keep up?
You mentioned a hobby of hunting?
The possible list is endless.

So, current applicants be it for med school or residency? Are things worse than when I went through a decade longer ago?

This is regional. I work in the NE and SW concurrently as a travel doc and the opinions are night and day. Both can be very vocal but I've noticed that the liberals are much more so. I do believe that the more conservative docs may have a greater tendency to discriminate, but you wouldn't know it because they talk much. Just my observation.

 

[Stagg737]

My institution/program as a whole is probably more conservative (middle left vs far left) compared to other institutions. We did have a resident at one point who would weaponize more "liberal" language to try and shut down people who would disagree with them, especially others they perceived as conservative or more likely to fit a conservative stereotype (ie, cishet, white individuals). However, I haven't seen/heard of major issues in terms of obvious discrimination toward or against residents or staff other than the general disapproval when one does not share certain beliefs common in academic institutions.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

lol I finally read that other thread I now understand the source of this ridiculousness.

The person couldn't have matched to his/her what, 23rd ranked program because they're terrible at interviewing....

We all know the issues you're concerned about, they're all over SDN cause you can't help but mention them every other response to any random thread.

Yeah - I don't know if my approach to racial issues as a Black man was a part of that interview skill deficit. It may have been; I said I disliked confrontation and preferred to reframe the issue as one of an individual human being not being treated fairly, often pointedly refusing to mention the racial aspect of things. I think it had more to do with a flat affect and a lack of confidence or impostor syndrome, though...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Not a student; but for the last 5 years or so I have tried to avoid talking about politics or giving any inclination of my political leanings in any type of work or public setting. (although I am sure someone can look through my post hx and find a time I messed up)

There is a name I haven't seen in years! I guess I should swing through the Psychiatry forum more than a handful of times a year now.

As for the topic, I avoid talking politics at work or with work people. As a business owner, I need to regularly interact with people from across the political spectrum. I'm a fiscally-conservative Independent with socially-moderate views. No party actually wants me bc I want a balanced budget and fact/data-backed spending. I know I can't be politically neutral, but work-facing interactions are as politically neutral as I can be bc many people can put aside their personal views for the greater good of the biz.

 

[annoyedpsychiatrist]

Politics have no business in the workplace either way. I have tons of MAGA patients and quite frankly i am very unhappy with the republican party. Now its just the democrats and trump/trump's followers. Given that they have royally screwed over PSLF by suing over the SAVE program which now delays my PSLF for an unforseen time, its hard to think of the republican party as a party for the people. Not to mention other things. That being said, i have maga patients that are still good people. I dont look down on them for their views. Everyone gets treated with the same level of respect. Both the far right and far left have issues in their own ways regardless, and the polarization of politics is like a deeply rooted sickness in this country.

The next few months will be very interesting as the election comes closer, especially in my state. I will have a lot of very upset patients.

 

[Merovinge]

There is a name I haven't seen in years! I guess I should swing through the Psychiatry forum more than a handful of times a year now.

As for the topic, I avoid talking politics at work or with work people. As a business owner, I need to regularly interact with people from across the political spectrum. I'm a fiscally-conservative Independent with socially-moderate views. No party actually wants me bc I want a balanced budget and fact/data-backed spending. I know I can't be politically neutral, but work-facing interactions are as politically neutral as I can be bc many people can put aside their personal views for the greater good of the biz.

2 party system = no chance for anything resembling fiscal responsibility. Kicking the can down the road always scores net positive points with the way the system is setup. If we had ranked choice voting like Alaska across the US we might get a few more people who actually want to see something resembling a balanced budget.

 

[Geraltofrivia]

Not a student; but for the last 5 years or so I have tried to avoid talking about politics or giving any inclination of my political leanings in any type of work or public setting. (although I am sure someone can look through my post hx and find a time I messed up)

Teach me to be better about this.

IIRC the vast majority of faculty on college campuses tend to be liberal/left-leaning with an extreme minority being right-leaning. I will say from my own experience, not sharing the perspective of 98% of the people I work with, people tend to be surprised and think something is wrong with me.

 

[Ceke2002]

Not a student; but for the last 5 years or so I have tried to avoid talking about politics or giving any inclination of my political leanings in any type of work or public setting. (although I am sure someone can look through my post hx and find a time I messed up)

Teach me to be better about this.

IIRC the vast majority of faculty on college campuses tend to be liberal/left-leaning with an extreme minority being right-leaning. I will say from my own experience, not sharing the perspective of 98% of the people I work with, people tend to be surprised and think something is wrong with me.

Most of my family had a pretty hard and fast rule that one never discusses religion or politics outside of certain, very specific, situations, as it risks negative discourse and arguments. It's a rule I tend to stick to even to this day. I will discuss politics and religion in appropriate forums, but outside of those areas, for example at a family Christmas gathering, I tend avoid the subject all together. The way I grew up it was considered ill mannered to even ask someone who they might be voting for in an election.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

2 party system = no chance for anything resembling fiscal responsibility. Kicking the can down the road always scores net positive points with the way the system is setup. If we had ranked choice voting like Alaska across the US we might get a few more people who actually want to see something resembling a balanced budget.

I’m a huge fan of rank choice voting, term limits, 1-topic legislative proposals, etc. All of the things that force accountability and transparency.