Considering Dropping Out

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UncertainMSTP

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  1. MD/PhD Student
I'm currently finishing up the 3rd year of my program (1st year of my PhD) and I'm really questioning if I still want research to be a significant part of my career. I've been questioning if I should have joined since day 1. In the past year, multiple members of my family have passed away which has pushed me further towards clinical medicine because it seems so much more tangible - maybe this is temporary?

Anyone consider dropping out and decide to stay, leave and regret it, etc? I'm just trying to gather the experiences of others for comparison. Additionally, I'm interested in a moderately competitive specialty - my Step 1 score is great but I worry that dropping out would be a difficult stigma to overcome.

Any thoughts appreciated, thanks!
 
I'm no MD/PhD student, so you probably want to give more weight to opinions of those who are or have completed those programs and have seen numerous examples of students who were iffy about the PhD like you are. But if you don't want to do research, then you really have to think about just how long you'll be spending doing your PhD (3, 4, 5 years?). It's a really long time and is not worth the time investment if you aren't going to do research. I don't know who exactly at your school you have to eventually tell the decision to (and assumingly they'll be disappointed since they made a big investment in funding you), but you have more significant circumstances with your family (I'm sorry to hear about that 🙁 ) than other people who just simply want to drop out for the heck of it. If family circumstances are a legitimate, actual reason for you choosing to not pursue research, then make that clear to the program. It's tough enough being in medical school with all that happening. They'll be more sympathetic and understanding than if you said that you knew the whole time that you didn't want to do the PhD.
 
I'm currently finishing up the 3rd year of my program (1st year of my PhD) and I'm really questioning if I still want research to be a significant part of my career. I've been questioning if I should have joined since day 1. In the past year, multiple members of my family have passed away which has pushed me further towards clinical medicine because it seems so much more tangible - maybe this is temporary?

We all think about quitting the program from time to time. I was so serious about quitting as a CD3/4 that the assistant program director thought I had actually dropped out and was surprised to still see me in the program as a CD5+. This is something you really have to decide for yourself, but it is normal to have doubts.

Additionally, I'm interested in a moderately competitive specialty - my Step 1 score is great but I worry that dropping out would be a difficult stigma to overcome.

This is unlikely to affect your residency application, assuming your clinical grades are good. Research isn't for everyone, especially most residents.
 
We all think about quitting the program from time to time. I was so serious about quitting as a CD3/4 that the assistant program director thought I had actually dropped out and was surprised to still see me in the program as a CD5+. This is something you really have to decide for yourself, but it is normal to have doubts.

I will say that this is the time when I see most MD/PhD students bail, for obvious reasons. All your med school friends are now in clinicals, often at multiple sites so you never see them. And when you do see them it's easy to think about how you're "falling behind" them. Post-Match is probably the worst. That summer after your 4th year, when everybody's gone and you're on your own? I pretty much took that summer off to be depressed.
 
I had a several somewhat catastrophic life events happen during my 1st year of grad school. I sat down and took a good look at what I was doing and really evaluated if I could be happy doing anything else with my life. I realized I was meant to be in the program, was having a hard time with these life changes, and going back to medical school wouldn't solve any of those problems.

Then I took an easier summer to rebuild my support system...meaning I went out with friends every weekend, talked to family on the phone a lot, only worked 8 hours a day, and spent a lot of time hiking with my dog. I didn't work at my usual pace in the lab but I developed a skill set for emotionally dealing with the isolation in grad school and lack of progress compared to my medical school friends that has benefitted my greatly.

What are the outcomes on a day to day basis for this decision and how will you feel about them? Are you ready to go back into a setting with little time flexibility and social interaction all day long? The nice thing about grad school is that you if you need a day off to sort through some stuff, you can take it!
 
The first two years of graduate school are often filled with doubt. I think most people consider dropping out. Most I talked to considered it seriously. Your experiments never work, your project is not solidified and seems to change from day to day based on your PI's whims, and you end up spending a lot of time reading or screwing around on the Internet because you don't have enough to do. On top of that, your classmates have all moved on with their clinicals, and your social life implodes. On top of that, you had some deaths in the family in addition to family pressure to drop out.

Advice #1: Don't listen to advice from anyone who has a vested interest in your career. That includes your family, your PI, your program director, faculty who support the MSTP, etc. Seriously, stop listening to them. They give absolutely terrible advice. Many people think very highly of their opinions and don't really care what's best for you. I once had a guy who I met for 10 mins to consider a rotation tell me that I would never be successful in science based on his gut feeling. Needless to say, I did not join his lab.

Get advice from people who truly want what's best for you. That may be a dean, it may be an experienced clinician or scientist, it may even be someone trained in helping such as a therapist or clergy. If no one comes to mind, ask the senior MSTPs who they trust. Talk to those people even if you never met them before. Truly caring people will love to help and can often help you sort out the clouded mess that is your mind. Find those people, and regardless of the outcome, keep in touch. They will be invaluable resources.

Advice #2: Decide if you love science. The MD/PhD is not for everybody. I personally think that most MD/PhDs should not even be doing it. The PhD life is a life full of failure, criticism, job insecurity, low pay, dirty politics, sociopaths, and egotistical maniacs. But it is also a promise for exciting scientific discovery. Some scientists are completely driven by that possibility despite all the downsides. If I told you tomorrow that you could never do science again, would you be truly sad, as if you lost something important in your life? Or would you feel relieved?

Advice #3: I agree with mtb103 completely. Don't be afraid to take some time off. Go on vacation. Take a leave of absence if necessary.

It will be difficult to sort of when your mind is all muddled with experimental failures, family pressure, self-doubt, fear, etc. But do some self-reflection when you feel clear minded. Think long-term how you want your career structured. Do you want to be a PI doing 80/20 science/clinical? 100% clinical? Clinical research? Industry? Consulting? Something else?
 
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Everyone wants to quit at a few points in grad school. Taking vacation weeks and getting a social life - so important in the rough times. I've booked a long weekend to visit friends spur of the moment after a disagreement with my PI. The distance and time was important. In general, I wouldn't make life altering decision with significant outside stress in your life (I was really off kilter for a bit). I tried to remember what I didn't like about med school. So much of M1/2 was don't think, memorize - and I always found that frustrating. In addition, my first year of grad school was learning all about my personal limits. The hours I can work in lab and be productive vs staying late screwing up/negating all my previous work. The mental breaks I need to take etc. This is kinda rambling, but don't make rash decisions, take care of yourself, and remember what made you apply to begin with. MD/PhD is not right for everyone. But grad school is a tough track for even the most passionate.

Oh and you're not alone: http://whatshouldwecallgradschool.tumblr.com/ and http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php
 
Everyone wants to quit at a few points in grad school. Taking vacation weeks and getting a social life - so important in the rough times. I've booked a long weekend to visit friends spur of the moment after a disagreement with my PI. The distance and time was important. In general, I wouldn't make life altering decision with significant outside stress in your life (I was really off kilter for a bit). I tried to remember what I didn't like about med school. So much of M1/2 was don't think, memorize - and I always found that frustrating. In addition, my first year of grad school was learning all about my personal limits. The hours I can work in lab and be productive vs staying late screwing up/negating all my previous work. The mental breaks I need to take etc. This is kinda rambling, but don't make rash decisions, take care of yourself, and remember what made you apply to begin with. MD/PhD is not right for everyone. But grad school is a tough track for even the most passionate.

Oh and you're not alone: http://whatshouldwecallgradschool.tumblr.com/ and http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php

👍👍👍
 
I was a straight PhD (now finishing M1). The first 2-2.5 years in grad school were tough. I believe I skipped lab for a week or two under the guise of taking a vacation because everything was failing and I didn't think I was good or smart enough to be a scientist. I eventually ended up completing the project in another 3 years while working on another risky one that yielded negative results. Think hard and access your motivations before deciding to quit. You might regret it; then again, you might not.
 
Dropped out, zero regrets, matched my #1 for residency. It was hard at the time, but overall was the right thing for me. PM'd you details.
 
I had a MS3 schedule because I was so unsure of continuing past my first year of grad school. I finished and definitely learned some valuable stuff but I have no idea if I will feel like it was the right decision for me to finish in the end.
 
I thought of quitting (both PhD and the entire MD/PhD) multiple times. I'm so glad I did not quit the PhD. The PhD will hopefully help in my residency application, gave me quite a bit of confidence to work independently, was training I actually did desire, diversifies the resume, and prevented me from having to go into an abysmal amount of debt. You can always quit, but once you quit you can't go back.
 
Whatever you decide OP, thanks for asking this question.

I'm glad to know other people struggle with this and that's its more or less par for the course.
 
I recently heard the MSTP director of UCSF at the APSA conference indicating that about 40% of students thought about quitting, most often during their 1st or 2nd year of PhD studies. However, the great majority of them stay and complete their dual-degree studies. Only 10% or less, eventually drop out of the combined degree.
 
I recently heard the MSTP director of UCSF at the APSA conference indicating that about 40% of students thought about quitting, most often during their 1st or 2nd year of PhD studies. However, the great majority of them stay and complete their dual-degree studies. Only 10% or less, eventually drop out of the combined degree.

Anecdotally, having been one, or worked with MD/PhD students at 4 different institutions in 3 different parts of the country, that number sounds about right.
 
10% is sounds right for the programs I'm familiar with. I'm interested in how he came up with the 40% number. I'm fairly certain my program considers me about as gung-ho MSTP as one can get. I definitely considered dropping out, but I never went as far as voicing these thoughts to anyone in charge or even anyone at my institution. I suspect nearly everyone has doubts/thinks about quitting, but only a fraction go as far as taking any steps or having conversations with admin about quitting.
 
It was based upon a survey of all the MSTP students at UCSF at the time (a couple of years ago). The question, if I recall correctly, was framed in these terms: "have you considered dropping out from the MSTP?, if so When, Why, and why did you stay?" Keep in mind that the survey is a self-fulling prophesy as they interviewed students within the MSTP, and not those who had quit. Nevertheless, even among completers (i.e.: MS-3/4 students), the info about why they stayed and when was this issue most relevant, is of importance.
 
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