Considering taking the leap

[discgolfdc]

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Greetings to all. It is certainly a different world out there, this time around.

My “road to medical school” story begins at a time when a good number of people in this forum, who are just now applying to and getting accepted/rejected/waitlisted by various medical schools, were taking their first steps into kindergarten. Now that I’ve successfully made myself feel old…

In the interest of being succinct, suffice it to say that I:

• had started medical school in the Caribbean (at Ross University) in 1993, which was a huge mistake (I turned down admission to NYU’s Kriser School of Dentistry to go),
• made application (and re-application) to numerous allopathic and osteopathic schools during 1994-1998, thinking that a result of non-admission was probably a “sign from God,”
• had a number of halfway decent “connections” that I, at least, thought, at the time, would help to better my chances of admission to one or two of them,
• decided, after being treated by a chiropractor, that chiropractic would be a fantastic means of helping people in (for lack of a better expression) a “less formal” environment.

I am now a chiropractor, licensed in four states, and have been since 2003. Chiropractic is a fantastic field, but without going into the nitty-gritty, here, as to why, I am getting the itch to apply to medical schools again.

I don’t really know what applying is like out there, nowadays. Certainly, all the “online” amenities weren’t available back then (I’m starting to feel like the proverbial grandfather who tells his grandchildren about how he walked to school on tennis rackets in the snow, uphill, both ways!). The process seems to be much the same, but with more conveniences thrown in the mix.

I graduated summa cum laude, salutatorian of my graduating class, so, though really anything could happen, my application might get some consideration these days. Finally!

Here’s the thing. I’m recently married, I now own a home with my wife, and I’m faced with a considerable decision. There’s also the advent of the fact that I’ve already racked up a decent aggregate graduate loan amount.

I guess I’m reaching out to anyone who may either be in my position or know someone in my position who might have some insight as to how this all worked out for them. I understand that everyone’s circumstances are as unique as they are, so I’m just beginning to take it all in. I welcome everyone to comment on whatever happens in this thread. It should be an interesting one. I’m also open to answering any questions people have about my past experience. It sure has been a very odd road to have traveled.

Based solely on proximity, I am considering the University of Cincinnati’s College of Medicine (for allopathic) and Ohio University’s College of Osteopathic Medicine (for, well, osteopathic).

Thanks to all, and hope this thread becomes a good one!!

Dr. J. L.

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Forget it, not worth it.

 

[EvoDevo]

I've moved the thread into a (hopefully) more appropriate forum. Let me know how this works out.

 

[coffeebythelake]

What do you expect to find as a doctor that you haven't found in chiropractics?

 

[discgolfdc]

What do you expect to find as a doctor that you haven't found in chiropractics?

Not having to sell people on a philosophical construct that isn't going to gain any major steam in my lifetime and that people don't seem to want, anyway...

 

[gman33]

Can you provide some info on how much med school you completed, grades, etc?

This will need to be addressed in your application.
Why do you think you were not successful in previous attempts to gain acceptance? What do you think has changed (or still needs to change in order to succeed)?

If you provide some more details about your gpa etc, you should be able to get some more directed advice.

As to whether it's a good idea to pursue medicine at this point, only you can really answer that question. If you are not happy with your current career, then there are numerous healthcare options that may be just as fulfilling but take less time in training (PA, etc).

My advice would be to get a realistic picture of what you need to do in order to gain acceptance, and then determine how much time will be needed to complete your training as a doctor. It may turn out that it will be around 10 years before you will be a practicing physician. Depending on your age, then think about how much time you will have left to practice.

Do you think it will be worth it? If so, then by all means go for it. No sense spending your life doing something you don't want to.

Also, don't pin your hopes on 1 or 2 schools you'd like to go to. As an older applicant, and someone who hasn't gotten accepted in previous attempts you will most like need to apply very broadly. Maybe 20+ schools. Make sure you think about having to move somewhere that is less than desirable for you while you complete your education.

I hope my reply is not discouraging. Just consider what you are getting yourself into and enjoy the journey.

 

[Luxian]

Sounds like you've wanted to be a doctor for a long time! I won't address everything in your post, but just wanted to put a few ideas out there.

Med school has gotten a lot more expensive. Now instead of $50k underwater at graduation, kids are coming out with $200-300k of debt. It's basically a mortgage without the house. And given that it will take another seven years (eight if you include a year to apply) before you're a medical doctor, do you feel you will have enough of a career after that point to make it all worth while? That said, we're all non-trads on this board, so there's certainly no point at which it is too late, but it just makes for a more interesting decision.

In truth, I think none of our opinions matter very much. The most important opinion you have to get is from your wife. Will she be okay with supporting you for the time you are in school? Will she be okay with the long hours? Do you guys want to have kids, and how will that impact everything? I'm not saying you need to discuss this on forum (quite the contrary!) but you need to have some serious discussions about how much this means to you and what you are willing to give up. Only you can decide.

 

[discgolfdc]

A number of people have asked about my "previous medical school experience," so allow me to address that once and for all. I began Ross University's medical program in 1993, but was only there for about 3 weeks. I got down to this island, and once I landed, I nearly had to pick my jaw up off the floor. I was flabergasted by what I saw. Frankly, had I had the training, I'd probably have started swimming back to the States. Anyhow, I wasn't there long enough to even generate a transcript, so, for all intents and purposes, that part of my "history" is just between us. It doesn't really exist on paper. Therefore, that doesn't reflect to the schools. I won't need to "explain" why I "dropped out" of med school to any committee.

My GPA out of college was somewhere between 3.2 and 3.4 (I don't remember, it's been a while, as I've described). However, my GPA out of professional (chiropractic) school was 3.98, having graduated summa cum laude, being ranked second in my class, with membership in Pi Tau Delta honor society. This may or may not mean much to a medical college -- it all depends on whether or not they tend to express prejudice against chiropractor applicants.

Why was I not successful in my previous attempts? Keep in mind that my previous attempts took place in the mid-1990s. Frankly, to be honest, there probably wasn't anything that made me "stand out." Certainly not my GPA. I had shown double digits on one section of the MCAT, at the time, with an "N" on my writing sample. These days, it would probably not be hard to stand out on that (are people writing medical essays, nowadays, like they speak? "Yo, I'm jus' sayin' but..."). There was also the ever-present (or, should I say, perceived, at the very least) "quota" thing going on -- all those schools needed was another white male with a jewish last name (sorry, just calling it like I saw it -- no offense intended).

I'm a little older now, a little more experienced, and I have what I would call a little bit more "academic clout." Again, prejudice may simply wipe any importance surrounding that off the proverbial slate. I plan to contact some admissions offices/committees and ask them, point-blank, whether or not it would make sense to apply for consideration. These days, I have nothing to lose. At this point, it's not about the so-called "prestige," "oohs-and aahs" about becoming or being called "doctor," because, believe me, there just ain't any (maybe I'll use that word, "ain't," in my writing sample). It's about being able to augment whatever knowledge and skills I may already have with the discipline of medicine to provide for a more complete patient care model. I have some real-world experience, and I'm intimately familiar with some of the dilemmas facing the health care fields. I'm hoping that this would make for something that might warrant some "more serious" consideration from a committee. At this point, I see my knowledge and experience as being more substantial than that which one would gain from volunteering and candystriping (I've done it, and I've worked as an assistant in a number of medical disciplines, as well).

At this point, I'm just collecting information as a way to really pick up on points that, perhaps, I haven't thought of or given due consideration. You've brought up some, and I continue to welcome more and more replies. Believe me, it's helpful. I've seen replies ranging from the despondent (Pinkertinkle's "Forget it, not worth it" to someone else's "You should have no trouble, just rock your MCATs!"). I really am taking it all in. This is not my only outlet, either. I have a fraternity brother who is a D.O., and I plan on contacting him, and someone I went to chiropractic school with is now a 3rd year D.O. student at PCOM. I'm trying to be shrewd in my approach, but not overly-ridiculous to the point where I wind up in "analysis paralysis."

Thank you for your insight and concern. I appreciate it!

Dr. L

 

[discgolfdc]

Sounds like you've wanted to be a doctor for a long time! I won't address everything in your post, but just wanted to put a few ideas out there.

Med school has gotten a lot more expensive. Now instead of $50k underwater at graduation, kids are coming out with $200-300k of debt. It's basically a mortgage without the house. And given that it will take another seven years (eight if you include a year to apply) before you're a medical doctor, do you feel you will have enough of a career after that point to make it all worth while? That said, we're all non-trads on this board, so there's certainly no point at which it is too late, but it just makes for a more interesting decision.

In truth, I think none of our opinions matter very much. The most important opinion you have to get is from your wife. Will she be okay with supporting you for the time you are in school? Will she be okay with the long hours? Do you guys want to have kids, and how will that impact everything? I'm not saying you need to discuss this on forum (quite the contrary!) but you need to have some serious discussions about how much this means to you and what you are willing to give up. Only you can decide.

Well, in truth, I don't really see myself retiring, so I guess that however much of a career I'll have left might be decided by just how many people the good Lord wants me to touch. I don't know what that number is, but I have to imagine that it is larger than the number of available dollars that will be left in the Social Security system by time I'd be ready to tap into it (frankly, I don't plan on it even being there by time I hit that age) .

My wife and I do want a child, and these are all things that I am considering with her. She means the world to me, and if it were a choice between going to medical school and having her and a family, med school loses, hands down. I'd only consider going if it could be done in a manner amicable to both desires. I have to imagine it can. I could not believe that I would be the very first person to consider and successfully complete this hypothesized route.

All responses are very helpful. Please keep them coming!!

 

[notdeadyet]

Anyhow, I wasn't there long enough to even generate a transcript, so, for all intents and purposes, that part of my "history" is just between us. It doesn't really exist on paper. Therefore, that doesn't reflect to the schools. I won't need to "explain" why I "dropped out" of med school to any committee.

Uh... I don't think you "dropped out", I think you dropped out. Sounds like it was the best decision for you, but med schools will ask you point blank if you've ever been accepted to or matriculated at a medical school. Your showing up at Ross means you matriculated.

If you're going to hit this dishonestly, I sort of have to drop out from giving advice to help you slide in.

 

[gman33]

I agree with notdeadyet. You need to approach this honestly.

As for your coursework in Chiro school, med schools don't really care too much about graduate GPAs. Fair or not, this is the way the process works. It's not being predjudiced against chiro schools, it's more that grad GPAs tend to be inflated compared to UG GPAs. Your UG gpa is a little low for MD schools. With a real nice MCAT, you may be able to get some interviews.

I'd suggest getting your UG transcripts, figuring your overall and science gpa, and then determining if addtional coursework is needed to bring up your numbers. It may sound crazy to go back and take UG classes at this point, but it may be needed.

Now, if you are going to focus on DO schools, your GPA may be good enough. DO may be a good fit as you can apply your knowledge to OMM, etc.

I'd suggest contacting some of the schools directly and getting some advice.

 

[discgolfdc]

You can call it whatever you'd like to call it, if it makes you feel better, and you can "drop out" from giving any advice as you see fit. I certainly have no place discussing any form of ethics with someone whose are impeccable.

Real world counsel, though: Do be careful in passing judgment on others, especially in the area of treating patients. You have no idea concerning what they've been through more so than they do.

 

[notdeadyet]

I certainly have no place discussing any form of ethics with someone whose are impeccable.

Mine are far from impeccable, but I managed to get in to medical school without lying.

Ethics aside, there is a very practical reason for not lying. You may merrily get an acceptance to a school that then finds out you lied about previously attending medical school. Your offer is rescinded. After you've already quit your job, cancelled your lease, packed your things, etc. Bad, bad idea.

Real world counsel, though: Do be careful in passing judgment on others, especially in the area of treating patients.

Apologies if I sounded like I was passing judgement. I wasn't. I just think that lying on your app is such a bad idea that I won't give advice on how to best do it. Incidentally, I've been out in the real world for about 13 years now, so I know the score.

You have no idea concerning what they've been through more so than they do.

I'm sorry if you've had a rough life. Med schools really do take some leniency if you come from a disadvantaged background or have suffered more than your share of hard knocks. But if you're caught lying, you're gone, done, banned. That's it. Just think it over.

 

[gman33]

I'm not passing judgement. I just think it's a bad idea to lie on your application. If for no other reason than if you get caught you won't be getting into any medical school ever.

I had a few classes at one school that I wanted to "forget" about. I didn't and instead chose to do some extra work which I thought would help to offset this weakness.

 

[Luxian]

I agree with notdeadyet. You need to approach this honestly.

As for your coursework in Chiro school, med schools don't really care too much about graduate GPAs. Fair or not, this is the way the process works. It's not being predjudiced against chiro schools, it's more that grad GPAs tend to be inflated compared to UG GPAs. Your UG gpa is a little low for MD schools. With a real nice MCAT, you may be able to get some interviews.

While they may not care about the courses you took in Chiro school, they will look very highly on your ability to interact with individuals as patients in a professional manner. Don't worry about your GPA. It's not low enough to strike you off the list (I have lower and I'm getting interviews). Do emphasize your experiences. The great benefit you have now is that you have a lot to distinguish yourself from the average 23 year old bio major with a 3.8 GPA. Just apply widely (over a dozen if you really want to be sure) and apply early in the season (June for primary and August for secondaries). It all makes a difference.

 

[discgolfdc]

Well, the reason I left (dropped out of, if you prefer to hear that) Ross University was simply that they had an agreement with a number of teaching hospitals in the states whereby, after basic sciences, students would return to the states and complete their clinical (3rd/4th year) program in one of those hospitals. When I got there, it turned out that the whole U.S. clinicals thing was in jeopardy, and there was no way I was doing clinical rotations in some 3rd world country where they still performed appendectomies by nerve block. I was sure that I'd never practice in the U.S., had I completed the whole program there. I figured I was only into it enough to barely get my pinky toe wet, so I got the hell outta Dodge.

Imagine hearing that as an interviewer. I do suppose it is their right to turn me down for something over which I had no control. It's not like I gave up because I couldn't do the work. For God's sake, it was the only place that I was given an opportunity to do the work, and then I find out that going there wasn't such a hot idea (not like they'd tell me otherwise -- money talks). The U.S. schools weren't having me, probably because I was closer in likeness to the average "I don't have much to talk about" out-of-school medical applicant than I am now.

I have every confidence in my ability to do the medical school thing. Frankly, some of it, I've done. Gross is gross, biochem is biochem (Lubert Stryer was my best friend for that), things like that. Of course, where things like pharm are concerned, I've no formal training (but, thankfully, I have work experience that renders me conversational in that regard, which sets me apart from many other D.C.'s, for starts), but I did chiropractic school, and so I learned what I was supposed to learn there -- and I did it damn well. Only one person in my class bested me. The neat thing, though, was how my class worked together. Though there was competition, we all did what we could to make the playing field level. We shared our information and made it available to each other. Some did better than others.

Funny enough, in the time between my last post and now, I wrote an e-mail to the admissions committee at one of the schools I want to consider, particularly about perceived antipathies toward applicants with chiropractic backgrounds. I asked them to shoot straight...

"And, if I may be so bold, before considering the issue of any 'politically correct' or 'canned' reply, I wholeheartedly ask that you suspend such judgment and simply tell me 'like it is,' even if it's ugly. I'm a grown-up, and I can take it -- regardless of the outcome."


They actually responded. They told me that they have a "holistic" evaluation system, so they don't "label" their applicants. Now, if ever there was an ambiguous reply, that seems like it -- they may not want to out-and-out tell me, "get lost." Of course, that wouldn't be the PC thing to do, but I'd rather they did, if that was their true sentiment.

Who knows? I have time to consider all this, and nothing's for sure just yet. I think that some people get into it for the right reasons, and some for the wrong reasons. I believe that my experiences have helped me to fashion a direction along this path for more right reasons than wrong (if any). Believe me, as I said, there is no glory in being called "Dr. _____________." It gets old. Quick. It's not a prestige thing at all. I promise you all that.