Constant Change: Only Certainty in Oz

[Insider]

One thing seems certain: these schools are all constantly in a state of flux. Always changing their "marketing". With new ones cropping up all the time.

Note: ACER is a little like OPEC. Some years the schools cooperate; some years they cheat on the cartel (which has its consequences). Same UNCERTAINTY goes for their policies, curricula, internship, Australian immigration (which in the case of doctors is more or less, depending on the moment in time, directed by the medical colleges and the schools).

PGY1 and PGY2 are different here. There are lots of internships at non-teaching hospitals! The primary role of the intern and JMO1 (the next year) is to fill "workforce" needs. Not really any standards or expectations. Internship and JMO1 (in addition, internationals often have to do a JMO2 in order to get any sort of sponsorship for PR but it depends on the state and numerous other factors which evidently can not be predicted in advance) are like limbo years. You are not a student but you are not "training" in any sort of "specialty". They call it "prevocational" and your duties are probably quite similar to student "clerkships" in the US. Thus, you are generally PGY3 or even PGY4 before you can start specialty training! Note: you can not start training in many specialties unless you have PR/citizenship which of course depends on the policies at any given moment. Little to do with your performance. And of course, there is the 10 year moratorium -- you can not get a Medicare number for TEN years after you get residency/citizenship or start internship whichever comes LATER. The exception, of course, being the dreaded rural leftovers. You haven't seen real rural until you've been to Oz. (In both 3rd and 4th year, we are forced to spend a month in these places -- which vary from fantastic to grim in terms of both education and living conditions. Check with each school.) PR is just the first hurdle!

If you are at all interested, apply and see what happens. It's very straight forward. But unpredictable. Nothing to lose, though. But be prepared to tolerate enormous uncertainty from start to finish.

For internationals in Oz, nothing is for sure. Tons of anecdotal info flying around but nothing solid. The system begs manipulation. But, it is also very manipulating of internationals. Never take anything for granted. Maintain a healthy skepticism through out.

Good luck to everyone!

PS:There ARE people who finish these programs in December and start residency in the Canada or the US the following summer. However, they don't seem to be the majority of North American international students! (That's an understatement!)

PPS: Carib for more certainty; Oz for a helluva adventure.

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[pitman]

Insider, I agree with much of what you say, though to a much lesser degree.

Keep in mind that it's the individual states that dictate most of the policy that will affect you throughout your training. the only national policy change of significance in the past few years has been the addition of docs on the skilled jobs list (a move that helps int'l students stay).

You're in NSW, right? that state has had some wicked changes to internship placement policy and the such recently i think. it's also the state that most docs want to go to (i.e., greater Sydney), and thus must be rather restrictive/protective. not that other states couldn't make similar changes, but there's not much reason to assume they will.

-pitman

 

[Insider]

There are a lot of rumors flying around in regard to immigration.

Here is the SOL list for the medical profession. I don't see how this relates to international students. Yes, they want doctors -- who are fully qualified. "Board certified" somewhere. This would not appear to be of any help to current or recent international students!

Occupation ASCO code
Professionals
Medical Practitioner - General Medical Practitioner 2311-11
Medical Practitioner - Anaesthetist 2312-11
Medical Practitioner - Dermatologist 2312-13
Medical Practitioner - Emergency Medicine Specialist 2312-15
Medical Practitioner - Obstetrician and Gynaecologist 2312-17
Medical Practitioner - Ophthalmologist 2312-19
Medical Practitioner - Paediatrician 2312-21
Medical Practitioner - Pathologist 2312-23
Medical Practitioner - Specialist Physician 2312-25
Medical Practitioner - Psychiatrist 2312-27
Medical Practitioner - Radiologist 2312-29
Medical Practitioner - Surgeon 2312-31
Medical Practitioner - Specialist Medical Practitioners (not elsewhere classified) 2312-79

 

[pitman]

Not sure what your point is here -- again, the only national "trend" has been to make it easier to stay as a doctor, not harder. Any perceived chaos/"flux" would be at the State level, and NSW is known to be a beoch. What you're saying is equivalent to telling ppl who want to come to the US to be a doc will face enormous uncertainty as policy is in a flux, yada yada.

 

[Insider]

Not sure what your point is here -- again, the only national "trend" has been to make it easier to stay as a doctor, not harder.

As far as I can tell, there is simply NO "trend" that makes it "easier" for international students to stay and train in Australia. Period. Where are you getting your information? Immigration policy is making it easier for fully qualified specialists to immigrate.

Australian immigration policy applies to all states. The specialty colleges are national (some AUS/NZ). With the exception of getting an internship and perhaps staying on as an RMO (a dead end), it's not a state matter. Furthermore, there is very good reason to expect it to become much more difficult for international students to get internships. Schools have been forced to increase their intakes recently and new schools are opening.

While such talk of "easier" immigration may serve the schools well, it is a disservice to students. Yes, I have been offered sponsorship for PR following internship. (Wouldn't necessarily trust them to deliver, though.) However, this is of little value to me without any chance for speciality training. There ARE foreign doctors with PR/citizenship but without speciality qualification working in AUS as "hospitalists" -- what amounts to permanent junior medical officers (what they call "prevocational", here). I do not know if this is currently an option. In any case, I doubt it's what most international students have in mind as a career.

Victoria is generally regarded as the hardest state for internationals to get internships, then Queensland. In the last couple years, NSW international students who want internships in NSW have been placed. With increased numbers of graduates forecasted in all of these states, it seems likely that international students will have increasingly diminished chances for internship. The last couple years were probably the best for international students seeking an internship in Australia.

 

[pitman]

As far as I can tell, there is simply NO "trend" that makes it "easier" for international students to stay and train in Australia. Period. Where are you getting your information? Immigration policy is making it easier for fully qualified specialists to immigrate.

um...I've been refuting your claim of a trend in the other direction. Think it through.

Australian immigration policy applies to all states. The specialty colleges are national (some AUS/NZ). With the exception of getting an internship and perhaps staying on as an RMO (a dead end), it's not a state matter. Furthermore, there is very good reason to expect it to become much more difficult for international students to get internships. Schools have been forced to increase their intakes recently and new schools are opening.

we've been discussing change, and as far as change is concerned, either there's the nat'l skilled jobs list change (which certainly doesn't support your argument), or changes at the state level. Prognosticating doesn't prove your point, and my refutations of it need not prove the converse.

Victoria is generally regarded as the hardest state for internationals to get internships, then Queensland. In the last couple years, NSW international students who want internships in NSW have been placed. With increased numbers of graduates forecasted in all of these states, it seems likely that international students will have increasingly diminished chances for internship. The last couple years were probably the best for international students seeking an internship in Australia.

1) Hmm, the last couple of years were "best", so now you're just complaining about...your predictions?
2) If you consider Queensland as one of the hardest, then you have no argument left

Sure, with new schools comes the concern that int'ls will be screwed in the next few years. But then just say that's your concern and discuss that, and steps the States are or will or could take to fix or exacerbate the problem (e.g., Queensland increases in intern slots). Would be far more credible, and productive.

 

[Insider]

The important message is do your own research. Gather evidence. Talk to experts on the matter. Some statements on this board may help you formulate questions or raise concerns. The stuff on this board pertaining to the current Australian situation is mostly just rumor, much of it recycled (and even embellished) from previous posts.

 

[pitman]

Yes, I completely agree.

And come here to visit the schools you think you might be interested in, at LEAST so you can look around and speak to the int'l student reps and/or a dean or two. That helped me a lot and swayed me towards my school.

-pitman