Contacting program directors after the match

[Sbunny86]

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Hey I wanted to know what is the etiquette for contacting a program director after the match for a program you haven't matched into. I ranked the program number one and didn't get it (although I'm happy with where I matched) but I was surprised because the interview went well and the PD and all the chiefs were saying they hoped to seem me next year. I wanted to email the PD to let them know that I ranked them number one, was surprised that I didn't get in, and wanted to know what about my application/interview didn't work for them and what I could have improved on. I also want to send this on the off chance I wanted to transfer (doubtful) and mostly because I'm considering going their for a possible fellowship/attending position after the residency. I just don't want to come off as petty, trying to give them a hard time, or putting them in an awkward situation. Any advise and comments, especially from any PD's reading this, would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

Dude, let it go. You matched somewhere you're happy, it's enough.

 

[Rippey]

u didn't get in because they liked the other people they interviewed more than you

obviously

hence the match

agree with the above

let it go

 

[doverseer]

I can see it now...

Applicant: What could I have done to improve my chances?
PD: Um...be better.

 

[wannabeOBGYN]

I can see it now...

Applicant: What could I have done to improve my chances?
PD: Um...be better.

Actually I think it'd be more like this:

Applicant: What could I have done to improve my chances?
PD: *no response* *adds name to list of annoying applicants to ignore for fellowship*

 

[mlw03]

Hey I wanted to know what is the etiquette for contacting a program director after the match for a program you haven't matched into. I ranked the program number one and didn't get it (although I'm happy with where I matched) but I was surprised because the interview went well and the PD and all the chiefs were saying they hoped to seem me next year. I wanted to email the PD to let them know that I ranked them number one, was surprised that I didn't get in, and wanted to know what about my application/interview didn't work for them and what I could have improved on. I also want to send this on the off chance I wanted to transfer (doubtful) and mostly because I'm considering going their for a possible fellowship/attending position after the residency. I just don't want to come off as petty, trying to give them a hard time, or putting them in an awkward situation. Any advise and comments, especially from any PD's reading this, would be appreciated.

Thanks

Agree with the others. If you do email the PD, you will do the bolded things. What possible good could sending the email do at this point in time?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If you ask in a professional, polite way, it's possible you could get some helpful feedback. As mentioned in this thread, you don't want to come across as whiny, or angry. Statements like "we would love to see you here" are meaningless pleasantries. People didn't mean anything by them.

Chances are, feedback you get will be useless. I'll bet the answer to any query is "We had a very competitive year. We enjoyed meeting you, and would have loved to have you part of our program. However, it just turned out that we matched higher on our rank list this year".

 

[Functional]

Hey I wanted to know what is the etiquette for contacting a program director after the match for a program you haven't matched into. I ranked the program number one and didn't get it (although I'm happy with where I matched) but I was surprised because the interview went well and the PD and all the chiefs were saying they hoped to seem me next year. I wanted to email the PD to let them know that I ranked them number one, was surprised that I didn't get in, and wanted to know what about my application/interview didn't work for them and what I could have improved on. I also want to send this on the off chance I wanted to transfer (doubtful) and mostly because I'm considering going their for a possible fellowship/attending position after the residency. I just don't want to come off as petty, trying to give them a hard time, or putting them in an awkward situation. Any advise and comments, especially from any PD's reading this, would be appreciated.

Thanks

Radiology is a very small world in academics. I wouldn't say anything.

 

[KingLear]

I too want to contact the places that interviewed me. My thing is that I didn't match and I was hoping to get some constructive advice from these PDs. I interviewed at 10 places and ranked them all. I have some serious deficiencies in my record but I feel like they were adequately addressed in my PS. All my invites came with full knowledge of the problems I had during school. They were willing to look past those things to interview me but when it came time to match: no dice. I'm left wondering if I ****ed up the interview. I think I interview well. Or did the committee hate me? I'm still upset about this.

I really want to know what I might have done wrong. I want to ask the PDs this without being either accusatory or whining.

 

[deleted103644]

You may have gotten interviews despite your red flags, but they probably still pushed you further down the rank lists of these programs. I'd guess in your case asking for advice may be alright, I have to imagine most PDs have some sympathy and will offer some advice if you ask politely.

 

[Law2Doc]

I too want to contact the places that interviewed me. My thing is that I didn't match and I was hoping to get some constructive advice from these PDs. I interviewed at 10 places and ranked them all. I have some serious deficiencies in my record but I feel like they were adequately addressed in my PS. All my invites came with full knowledge of the problems I had during school. They were willing to look past those things to interview me but when it came time to match: no dice. I'm left wondering if I ****ed up the interview. I think I interview well. Or did the committee hate me? I'm still upset about this.

I really want to know what I might have done wrong. I want to ask the PDs this without being either accusatory or whining.

If you didn't match I think it's reasonable to find out what you could do better. It's really not that many months before you have to start applying all over again. If you matched like the OP, however, I think it just comes off petty.

 

[Mattchiavelli]

agree that sending makes you look petty. If you're in a residency, how is feedback on residency interviews going to help you?

 

[berger911]

I too want to contact the places that interviewed me. My thing is that I didn't match and I was hoping to get some constructive advice from these PDs. I interviewed at 10 places and ranked them all. I have some serious deficiencies in my record but I feel like they were adequately addressed in my PS. All my invites came with full knowledge of the problems I had during school. They were willing to look past those things to interview me but when it came time to match: no dice. I'm left wondering if I ****ed up the interview. I think I interview well. Or did the committee hate me? I'm still upset about this.

I really want to know what I might have done wrong. I want to ask the PDs this without being either accusatory or whining.

regardless of what they say (i will find out in a few months) i am convinced that most programs have a pre-rank list based on numbers and other criteria before the interviews. the interview can only help you slightly or really hurt your chances if you prove to be socially inept. there are plenty of people with an absolute lack of personality in my program that matched at top places. i also interviewed with many people, including group interviews, that were socially awkward and yet they still matched at the top of their list. programs want numbers. unless you really blow them away (if possible) a great interview will only move up you a few spots in their "pre-interview rank list." if you had red flags it's very likely that you may be low on their rank list to begin with. it's a very annoying process but just like med school, they want the numbers. they want the high step 1s and the AOAs to buff up their residency directory. of course there may be brilliant applicants with very down-to-earth personalities but that is not the common trend in the field of medicine and when it comes down to it, it's always safer to go with the AOA and 260. i also think that the things they say won't make a difference (2nd looks, writing letters of intent) really do make a difference.

 

[Sbunny86]

If you ask in a professional, polite way, it's possible you could get some helpful feedback. As mentioned in this thread, you don't want to come across as whiny, or angry. Statements like "we would love to see you here" are meaningless pleasantries. People didn't mean anything by them.

Chances are, feedback you get will be useless. I'll bet the answer to any query is "We had a very competitive year. We enjoyed meeting you, and would have loved to have you part of our program. However, it just turned out that we matched higher on our rank list this year".

Thanks to everyone for their replies. I'll admit that the original post did have a bit of venting to it but I guess a little more information might help and maybe add a little more transparency to the situation. The program that I matched at (compared to my first choice) is a larger program almost 3x the size, located in a busy major metropolitan area, and generally viewed as more competitive than my first choice. That one was smaller, rural, and generally seen as less competitive. Both are university programs though and I picked the smaller one because I wanted a smaller program and a more rural setting (my med school being in a more urban setting) for a different patient population. My step scores weren't amazing (although my roommate was in the 250's for step one so I use that as a bar for amazing) but they were decent and I have a good amount of research/extracurricular activities. That's probably why I was so puzzled when I did not match there and wanted some more info on why.

I was mostly hopping to find a way to keep in contact with the PD from my top choice so that it might help me out when I apply for fellowships/attending positions. If anyone has any advise for just ways to keep in contact without looking petty/arrogant/angry and possibly be harmful for fellowships (which was a good point that I didn't think of "wannabeOB"), it would be greatly appreciated. Also I had a very good rapport with one of the chiefs there that will be doing a fellowship (which I am interested in) at the same institution, would it be a good idea to keep in contact with him?

Thanks in advance for all you advise and help

 

[Law2Doc]

...

I was mostly hopping to find a way to keep in contact with the PD from my top choice so that it might help me out when I apply for fellowships/attending positions. If anyone has any advise for just ways to keep in contact without looking petty/arrogant/angry and possibly be harmful for fellowships (which was a good point that I didn't think of "wannabeOB"), it would be greatly appreciated. Also I had a very good rapport with one of the chiefs there that will be doing a fellowship (which I am interested in) at the same institution, would it be a good idea to keep in contact with him?

Thanks in advance for all you advise and help

honestly asking a PD or chief why they didn't rank you highly is possibly the worst way to "keep in contact". Figure out other means. Each specialty of medicine is a relatively small world, and there are probably countless opportunities to find an excuse to touch base with them with respect to committees, talks, research and other topics that are unrelated to matching.

 

[atsai3]

I too want to contact the places that interviewed me. My thing is that I didn't match and I was hoping to get some constructive advice from these PDs. I interviewed at 10 places and ranked them all. I have some serious deficiencies in my record but I feel like they were adequately addressed in my PS. All my invites came with full knowledge of the problems I had during school. They were willing to look past those things to interview me but when it came time to match: no dice. I'm left wondering if I ****ed up the interview. I think I interview well. Or did the committee hate me? I'm still upset about this.

I really want to know what I might have done wrong. I want to ask the PDs this without being either accusatory or whining.

There is a false gospel being preached on SDN that if you get an interview, from that point onward the slate is wiped clean and everyone has an equal shot at getting ranked. That's really not true. If you had "serious deficiencies" in your application, no way is a residency applicant review committee simply going to overlook them. Your deficiencies may not have been serious enough to get you dinged for an interview, but it appears that they were serious enough to have prevented you from getting seriously ranked.

 

[Law2Doc]

There is a false gospel being preached on SDN that if you get an interview, from that point onward the slate is wiped clean and everyone has an equal shot at getting ranked. That's really not true. If you had "serious deficiencies" in your application, no way is a residency applicant review committee simply going to overlook them. Your deficiencies may not have been serious enough to get you dinged for an interview, but it appears that they were serious enough to have prevented you from getting seriously ranked.

Meh, there are definitely residencies out there which interview very selectively and depending on people's impressions on interview day or the preinterview dinner, you could move dramatically up or down on the rank list. I've now seen a number of cases where folks who were amazing on paper were ultimately ranked really low, if at all, based on the fact that they didn't impress in person. By the same token I've seen PDs take a chance on folks with slightly lower numbers because the fit seemed otherwise very good. I thus suggest that the gospel is not false, just probably overplayed. If you get an interview, you have an opportunity to impress, and if you do, you might find your way high enough onto a match list that if a few borderline people ahead of you choose other places, you can match. That being said, the more serious the deficiencies, the more you are going to have to blow the interview out of the water and connect with multiple people in the program in a solid way. But yeah, I know several people who on paper probably don't belong where they matched, but then you talk with them in person and you get a sense of how they pulled it off. You don't hire someone for their resume, you hire them because they are the right person for the job. It's as true in residency as it is in the private sector. The resume sometimes has to be good enough to get your foot in the door, but once it's in, the rest is up to you.

 

[deleted103644]

Meh, there are definitely residencies out there which interview very selectively and depending on people's impressions on interview day or the preinterview dinner, you could move dramatically up or down on the rank list. I've now seen a number of cases where folks who were amazing on paper were ultimately ranked really low, if at all, based on the fact that they didn't impress in person. By the same token I've seen PDs take a chance on folks with slightly lower numbers because the fit seemed otherwise very good. I thus suggest that the gospel is not false, just probably overplayed. If you get an interview, you have an opportunity to impress, and if you do, you might find your way high enough onto a match list that if a few borderline people ahead of you choose other places, you can match. That being said, the more serious the deficiencies, the more you are going to have to blow the interview out of the water and connect with multiple people in the program in a solid way. But yeah, I know several people who on paper probably don't belong where they matched, but then you talk with them in person and you get a sense of how they pulled it off. You don't hire someone for their resume, you hire them because they are the right person for the job. It's as true in residency as it is in the private sector. The resume sometimes has to be good enough to get your foot in the door, but once it's in, the rest is up to you.

I'm of the camp that for the majority of programs, interviews can only hurt your application. They're mainly there to weed out the wackos who can put together a good resume.

A few programs state explicitly that they disregard everything except the interview once you're invited. Some even go as far as to blind the interviewers to your stats. Unless a program does something like this, I'd assume everything in your application still counts for ranking, and even with these programs I'm suspicious that your board scores and grades probably still count.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm of the camp that for the majority of programs, interviews can only hurt your application. They're mainly there to weed out the wackos who can put together a good resume.

A few programs state explicitly that they disregard everything except the interview once you're invited. Some even go as far as to blind the interviewers to your stats. Unless a program does something like this, I'd assume everything in your application still counts for ranking, and even with these programs I'm suspicious that your board scores and grades probably still count.

Everything counts, but at many many places the weight of the interview day/dinner is a lot bigger than you give credit. I've seen folks who were weeded out who definitely weren't wackos, just mildly annoying or abrasive in person. And I've seen people who were very affable in person get a nice boost on the rank list. I've seen folks who got such rave reviews from the residents (few of whom ever see the numbers) that they got ranked to match even though on paper they reportedly weren't as impressive as some others. So yeah it matters a lot more than you give credit. Wait until you see the other side of the process when you are in your (advanced) program in a couple of years. You'll see that your vote (yay or nay) matters to the PD a bit more than a few extra points on a Step 1 score.

 

[deleted103644]

Everything counts, but at many many places the weight of the interview day/dinner is a lot bigger than you give credit. I've seen folks who were weeded out who definitely weren't wackos, just mildly annoying or abrasive in person. And I've seen people who were very affable in person get a nice boost on the rank list. I've seen folks who got such rave reviews from the residents (few of whom ever see the numbers) that they got ranked to match even though on paper they reportedly weren't as impressive as some others. So yeah it matters a lot more than you give credit. Wait until you see the other side of the process when you are in your (advanced) program in a couple of years. You'll see that your vote (yay or nay) matters to the PD a bit more than a few extra points on a Step 1 score.

Maybe wacko was too strong a term. 🙂 Yes, annoying people get weeded out too - anyone who might be a pain to work with for a few years.

Positives can come through in interviews too, but I'd argue they're still far less common than the negatives. And mainly come into play if you're ridiculously good looking.

 

[gutonc]

I was mostly hopping to find a way to keep in contact with the PD from my top choice so that it might help me out when I apply for fellowships/attending positions.

The amount of influence that the IM PD will have over fellowship/hiring decisions ranges from minimal to non-existent. And the influence they will have is mostly going to be in a bad way. If you want to go to that other institution for fellowship, you're better off establishing a relationship with the sub-specialty division, either the PD or a faculty member by doing an away elective there sometime during 2nd year, or by doing some research there.

 

[DrAwsome]

There is a false gospel being preached on SDN that if you get an interview, from that point onward the slate is wiped clean and everyone has an equal shot at getting ranked. That's really not true. If you had "serious deficiencies" in your application, no way is a residency applicant review committee simply going to overlook them. Your deficiencies may not have been serious enough to get you dinged for an interview, but it appears that they were serious enough to have prevented you from getting seriously ranked.

I personally disagree with this. I have been pretty much told this by PD's at major academic centers-that once you get an IV, scores don't really matter, it's mostly the interview that matters. Given that the stats are good for the program if they give you an interview, it comes down to-is the applicant a good fit!? I think it makes sense-if they thought that your app was terrible, why would they bother giving you an IV? They have tons of apps to choose from, particularly in competitive specialties.

In less competitive specialties, I think it's even more forgiving! So if you don't have the greatest application and you have a great interview, I think you are more likely to be taken at that program over someone with better stats who did not interview as well.

 

[deleted103644]

I personally disagree with this. I have been pretty much told this by PD's at major academic centers-that once you get an IV, scores don't really matter, it's mostly the interview that matters. Given that the stats are good for the program if they give you an interview, it comes down to-is the applicant a good fit!? I think it makes sense-if they thought that your app was terrible, why would they bother giving you an IV? They have tons of apps to choose from, particularly in competitive specialties.

In less competitive specialties, I think it's even more forgiving! So if you don't have the greatest application and you have a great interview, I think you are more likely to be taken at that program over someone with better stats who did not interview as well.

Less competitive specialties are often just looking for a warm body from a US medical school that won't murder them in the call room while they sleep.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

I'd be happy to disagree with your disagreeing!

Look, every program is going to do things differently. And, the effect of an interview on ranking is probably going to matter more in a smaller program that ranks less candidates (where each spot up or down on the rank list means more). Also, it will depend upon the competitiveness of the field and the program. If it's a really competitive field, then everyone has stellar board scores, research, etc. A Step score of 270 isn't really any "better" than a 255, when it comes down to being a doc. So, the interview tends to mean more,

I tend to group applicants into 5 or so groups based on the strength of your application. Interview results then help determine where, within your group, you will be ranked. A bad interview can drop you completely off the list, regardless of which group you started in. A good interview can move you up one group. No hard and fast rules here, and there are always exceptions. But suggesting that all is forgiven once you are invited to interview is unlikely to represent what happens at the majority of programs.

Or maybe not. I can only speak for myself.

 

[Chakrabs]

I personally disagree with this. I have been pretty much told this by PD's at major academic centers-that once you get an IV, scores don't really matter, it's mostly the interview that matters. Given that the stats are good for the program if they give you an interview, it comes down to-is the applicant a good fit!? I think it makes sense-if they thought that your app was terrible, why would they bother giving you an IV? They have tons of apps to choose from, particularly in competitive specialties.

In less competitive specialties, I think it's even more forgiving! So if you don't have the greatest application and you have a great interview, I think you are more likely to be taken at that program over someone with better stats who did not interview as well.

Depends on the specialty. For neurosurgery where there are only about 2 spots per program the interview plays a huge role and your application is mainly for screening purposes. They're going to be spending tons of time with you so they want to make sure you click with the rest of the team. There is little room for error as one bad resident can really bring down the entire service. For IM specialties, where you'll be shuttling around from rotation to rotation every month it doesnt have nearly the same importance and with so many applicants, grades/scores/application are far more meaningful in the final rankings.

 

[atsai3]

A bad interview can drop you completely off the list, regardless of which group you started in. A good interview can move you up one group. No hard and fast rules here, and there are always exceptions.

This is more or less what happened at our program, except that I rarely observed stellar interviews move anyone up very far.

 

[Law2Doc]

...A Step score of 270 isn't really any "better" than a 255, when it comes down to being a doc. So, the interview tends to mean more,

... A bad interview can drop you completely off the list, regardless of which group you started in. A good interview can move you up....

this. I've seen tons of people move each direction. You app and numbers really just get you through the door.