Continued validity of LizzyM scores?

[WedgeDawg]

Percentiles are a bit off at the high end, if you look at the bar graphs it's more like

528 - 43, 44, 45 (empty)
527 - 42 (baby bump if you zoom in and squint)
526 - 41 (first clear bump)
523, 524, 525 - 39, 40 (majority of the top half percent, no clean boundary)

not that it matters as 37+ is all statistically identically according to the wise gyngyn, but if you use this with 525+ being treated like 42+ you're going to have like 5x as many people claiming supra-90th-at-top-school LizzyMs...which may actually be an appreciable number in a place like SDN lol

Makes sense. I didn't really have any idea how to treat 523+ as they're really all the same thing, but erring conservatively might fix the disparate gpa/MCAT problem. I'll update the chart this evening and see if it makes a difference.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Lawpy]

Alright guys, I have a proposed conversion for you all. The formula is:

(GPA-1)*10 + (MCAT-500) = Score

The max score (4.0/528) comes out to 58. I've gone through and made correlates between the old LizzyM score and the new one (which can be seen in the chart below). Examples:

Old 76 (i.e. 3.8/38 or 3.9/37) is new 50. This is generally the number to shoot for for top schools.

Old 73 (i.e. 3.8/35 or 3.9/34) is new 45. This is generally a good number for mid tiers while possibly being competitive for some top tiers.

Old 70 (i.e. 3.7/33 or 3.9/31) is new 40. This is generally where a "competitive" applicant for med school falls around.

Old 67 (i.e. 3.6/31 or 3.7/30) is new 35. This is around the accepted applicant median.

Old 65 (i.e. 3.6/29 or 3.7/28) is new 30. This is highly competitive for DOs and marginal for MD.

I didn't continue my color coordination after this, but you get the idea.

This score not only is easy to calculate, but provides convenient benchmarks for comparing scores to old LizzyM scores (down by 5's from 50 for new, down by 3's from 76 for old). It does break down at the MCAT extremes, but so did the old score (45/3.1 still gave you 76, for example).

Here are some spot checks:

3.7/32 is 69 old, which should be around 39ish new. Formula gives, for 3.7/512, 39, spot on!

3.4/38 is 72 old, which should be around 43-44 new. Formula gives, for 3.4/522, 46, so it's a little high, but it's also an extreme MCAT place.

3.9/32 is 71 old, which should be around 41-42 new. Formula gives, for 3.9/512, 41, right on!

3.3/36 is 69 old, which should be about 38-39 new. Formula gives, for 3.3/518, 41, so again, a little high.

This seems to work best the more "matched" the GPA and MCAT are, and gives slight favor to higher MCAT scores at the opposing extremes, but overall should be a decent estimate.

Obviously you can make it more accurate (by doing exact percentile conversions), but that would inevitably take away the simplicity of the calculation, which is the whole point. Also, because the new MCAT has multiple scores per old MCAT score, you're going to be hard pressed to find an algorithm that perfectly fits everything.

As we move away from old MCAT scores entirely, the conversion factor equality becomes far less important, and the balance between MCAT and GPA becomes the most important thing (here GPA is weighted out of 30 while MCAT is weighted out of 28, and the overall score can go as low as -32 if you have a 468 MCAT and 0.00 GPA). One MCAT point is still equivalent to 0.1 GPA points, just like the old scale.

See what you guys think!

Ah so regardless of the MCAT scoring system, the generalized LizzyM score = 10*(GPA - a) + (MCAT - b), where a and b are correction factors adjusted for scale and to ensure GPA-MCAT equal importance. Yeah that's pretty convenient.

 

[ZedsDed]

not that it matters as 37+ is all statistically identically according to the wise gyngyn,

Is it in practice though? I have a 37, and I promise you it=/=43 in the eyes of all AdComs

 

[Lawpy]

Is it in practice though? I have a 37, and I promise you it=/=43 in the eyes of all AdComs

I think the safer statement would be anything above a 39+ is equivalent. But yeah, sadly a 37 is considered "average" for many top schools whose medians lie in 37-38 range.

 

[ZedsDed]

I think the safer statement would be anything above a 39+ is equivalent. But yeah, sadly a 37 is considered "average" for many top schools whose medians lie in 37-38 range.

Tis a sick world us premeds live in

 

[LizzyM]

Nice work WedgeDawg.

I concur!

As another aside, and in category of unintended effects, the move to psych/soc inclusion, which is leading to schools making psych and/or soc pre-req courses actually is going to give undergrads less freedom and less choice in taking a more "diverse' range of courses. Will be even harder to major in English or Philosophy or History as a double major in a science.

Did you ever think that maybe schools want to get away from double majors in science and create more space for social science and humanities majors. How can requiring a more diverse list of pre-reqs give undergrads less choice in taking a diverse range of courses? I've also heard that there might be a move toward collapsing physics and o-chem into 1 semester each to open up space for behavioral science, statistics and biochem. Of course, the chemistry and physics departments of big schools will yelp in pain because it will decrease the work loads while not reducing the number of tenured faculty they've hired to teach those courses.

 

[Lawpy]

I've also heard that there might be a move toward collapsing physics and o-chem into 1 semester each to open up space for behavioral science, statistics and biochem. Of course, the chemistry and physics departments of big schools will yelp in pain because it will decrease the work loads while not reducing the number of tenured faculty they've hired to teach those courses.

It's for the better. At least we don't have to see physics and chemistry having separate premed-only sections that unnecessarily oversimplify the concepts (*cough*algebra-based physics*cough*), while the well-rounded academic background in the social sciences is duly emphasized.

 

[Nietzschelover]

I concur!



Did you ever think that maybe schools want to get away from double majors in science and create more space for social science and humanities majors. How can requiring a more diverse list of pre-reqs give undergrads less choice in taking a diverse range of courses? I've also heard that there might be a move toward collapsing physics and o-chem into 1 semester each to open up space for behavioral science, statistics and biochem. Of course, the chemistry and physics departments of big schools will yelp in pain because it will decrease the work loads while not reducing the number of tenured faculty they've hired to teach those courses.

It's not necessarily about a double major.....every time the number of pre-req increases the available slots for courses decreases. Even if a course is collapsed with something else the trend is towards more pre-reqs, as you noted above (behavioral science, stats, preferably biostats, biochem, etc). Some other courses like genetics also are recommended. Add an intro psych and intro soc course and there just isn't much room, not to mention that those intro courses don't really do a ton in terms of increasing diversity. If I major in something like philosophy or English and by the time I do all the pre-med pre-reqs how do I have time to take courses in history, higher level social sciences/ humanities, art history, etc?? And many colleges have their own area requirements that must be fulfilled. Bottom line is that there already was very limited choice for pre-meds and now will be even less. Not to mention studying abroad.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Well those courses are now going to helpful for the new mcat - especially biochemistry.

 

[OllieDog]

*

 

[Nietzschelover]

Eh, I think you just need to be smart about your planning. I have a non-science major, take all the pre-med prerequisites INCLUDING a couple higher level bio/biochem classes, as well as the core requirements for my school and I STILL had room for 2 semesters abroad and slots open for some fun classes. And yes, I'm graduating in 4 years. Granted I had to take 1 summer school class to keep on sequence with ochem, but that's really not a big deal.

*I'm not trying to come off as some super-achiever because I'm definitely not, but with proper planning, enrolling in a wide variety of courses really is possible. I also only came in with AP credit for 1st semester English so it's not like I had 30 or even 15 credits to spare.

Then you did very well. There are a limited number of slots for courses in 4 years. For most folks who have a non-science major, the major and pre-med prereqs will take almost all of them. Especially if the pre-med reqs are increasing. The situation is perhaps marginally better at at a place like Rochester that has a "open curriculum" but even there they have cluster requirements to fulfill apart from one's major. If you added biochem, stats, genetics, intro psych and intro sociology I'd be curious to know how many truly elective slots for course you would have had. Please note that there is great variability among colleges about area requirements to fulfill.

I think @Glazedonutlove may have gotten to the heart of the matter in the post above.....whatever will help for the MCAT.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Is it in practice though? I have a 37, and I promise you it=/=43 in the eyes of all AdComs

It's all dependent on the school. A school like Temple or Penn State? Sure that general rule probably has alot of validity to it. A school like WASHU where the median Bio subsection score for years has been a 14? No a 37 is not the same as a 43.

 

[a_borgia]

.

 

[Goro]

I would so love to see these pre-reqs changed and get out of the 20th Century.

I've always maintained that Cell Bio, Biochem or Genetics should be a pre-req, and Physics dumped entirely.

I've also heard that there might be a move toward collapsing physics and o-chem into 1 semester each to open up space for behavioral science, statistics and biochem. Of course, the chemistry and physics departments of big schools will yelp in pain because it will decrease the work loads while not reducing the number of tenured faculty they've hired to teach those courses.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

It's all dependent on the school. A school like Temple or Penn State? Sure that general rule probably has alot of validity to it. A school like WASHU where the median Bio subsection score for years has been a 14? No a 37 is not the same as a 43.

I've never understood why some schools have a median MCAT in the 98th-99th percentiles...

 

[LizzyM]

I would so love to see these pre-reqs changed and get out of the 20th Century.

I've always maintained that Cell Bio, Biochem or Genetics should be a pre-req, and Physics dumped entirely.

Let's face it; physics and o-chem have been there for years as weed-outs.

 

[a_borgia]

I've never understood why some schools have a median MCAT in the 98th-99th percentiles...

Because they have the luxury of being picky? Prestige, whether we like it or not, depends a lot on having high stats, if US News and Newsweek are to be believed.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Let's face it; physics and o-chem have been there for years as weed-outs.

Isn't Ochem relevant? Knowing the chemistry of drugs could be helpful no?

Because they have the luxury of being picky? Prestige, whether we like it or not, depends a lot on having high stats, if US News and Newsweek are to be believed.

weren't you talking about the shift toward holistic review...

 

[LizzyM]

Isn't Ochem relevant? Knowing the chemistry of drugs could be helpful no?

Could what you need to know for medicine be covered in a semester rather than a year? Ditto for physics.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Because they have the luxury of being picky? Prestige, whether we like it or not, depends a lot on having high stats, if US News and Newsweek are to be believed.

You can still be very picky with a median MCAT in the 95th-97th percentile range... I don't think that small drop would impact the more stat-obsessed schools. If anything, it may actually give them a more diverse class.

 

[Lawpy]

I would so love to see these pre-reqs changed and get out of the 20th Century.

I've always maintained that Cell Bio, Biochem or Genetics should be a pre-req, and Physics dumped entirely.

Let's face it; physics and o-chem have been there for years as weed-outs.

I mean, physics has very useful applications in medicine, like in physiology and diagnostics. But the problem became very unbearable the moment when calculus was stripped out of physics and thrown out the window. That was an irritating move and unnecessarily punished the unlucky physics professors who are forced to teach the course to premeds, when they could've otherwise used their time teaching the normal, calculus-based version to engineers and physicists who do use physics in their career. That's why it's far better to dump the outdated physics prereq altogether: it did far more damage than expected and helped no one.

Same with getting rid of calculus and organic chemistry prereqs. The waste of resources is far too much.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I mean, physics has very useful applications in medicine, like in physiology and diagnostics. But the problem became very unbearable the moment when calculus was stripped out of physics and thrown out the window. That was an irritating move and unnecessarily punished the unlucky physics professors who are forced to teach the course to premeds, when they could've otherwise used their time teaching the normal, calculus-based version to engineers and physicists who do use physics in their career. That's why it's far better to dump the outdated physics prereq altogether: it did far more damage than expected and helped no one.

Same with getting rid of calculus and organic chemistry prereqs. The waste of resources is far too much.

I actually agree - the professors at my school think teaching algebra based physics especially for electricity and magnetism is more challenging than teaching calculus based.

I don't think they should get rid of ochem completely--isn't it supposed to show your problem solving skills (and it's the main weed out class)

 

[p0gono]

it did far more damage than expected and helped no one.

Physics has been all but dumped from the MCAT.

I would say 2/3 of the content they actually test in physics now (of an already very small portion of the exam) would be covered in a thorough chemistry or human physiology course.

 

[efle]

Let's face it; physics and o-chem have been there for years as weed-outs.

Aren't biochem and genetics typically also nightmare classes? And of course it seems the fairest way to weed out is by the MCAT, the only standardized barrier

 

[Goro]

For the same reasons the US Navy has the SEALs and the Army has the Delta forces.

I've never understood why some schools have a median MCAT in the 98th-99th percentiles...

 

[MSclerosis]

I mean, physics has very useful applications in medicine, like in physiology and diagnostics. But the problem became very unbearable the moment when calculus was stripped out of physics and thrown out the window. That was an irritating move and unnecessarily punished the unlucky physics professors who are forced to teach the course to premeds, when they could've otherwise used their time teaching the normal, calculus-based version to engineers and physicists who do use physics in their career. That's why it's far better to dump the outdated physics prereq altogether: it did far more damage than expected and helped no one.

Same with getting rid of calculus and organic chemistry prereqs. The waste of resources is far too much.

Agree with you.

Teaching physics without mathematics makes no sense. Without a firm understanding of linear algebra, differential equations, statistics and calculus, you cannot begin to appreciate modern physics.

I am not sure why it is in the premed curriculum either. I think anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry would be more appropriate.

 

[gyngyn]

Everything you may need to know about Physics, O Chem and calculus could be taught in a semester (arguably less).

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I always wondered why anatomy wasn't a prereq for many med schools but it is for dental

 

[Lawpy]

I actually agree - the professors at my school think teaching algebra based physics especially for electricity and magnetism is more challenging than teaching calculus based.

I don't think they should get rid of ochem completely--isn't it supposed to show your problem solving skills (and it's the main weed out class)

They're right. I tried and i couldn't do it. I gave up trying to explain E&M using only algebra because it's impossible. After all, the guy who derived the four central principles did so using integrals and vector calculus.

Ochem is good for people going into pharmacy or industry. It's more suited for chem majors who analyze a bunch of chemical structures, than for medical students who just memorize the drugs and how they work. Knowing ochem is obviously essential for drug discovery research, but that's like saying physics is essential for particle accelerator design to improve medical imaging.

Agree with you.

Teaching physics without mathematics makes no sense. Without a firm understanding of linear algebra, differential equations, statistics and calculus, you cannot begin to appreciate modern physics.

I am not sure why it is in the premed curriculum either. I think anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry would be more appropriate.

Unsure about anatomy, but biochemistry and physiology are essential/highly recommended.

To medical school adcoms, why is calculus required by many medical schools but algebra-based physics is acceptable? You would think parsimomy would be a valuable feature in medicine...

Everything you may need to know about Physics, O Chem and calculus could be taught in a semester, arguably, less.

Yeah but they are unnecessary. MCAT can cover all that, so save the tuition

Physics has been all but dumped from the MCAT.

I would say 2/3 of the content they actually test in physics now (of an already very small portion of the exam) would be covered in a thorough chemistry or human physiology course.

Good riddance.

 

[gyngyn]

I always wondered why anatomy wasn't a prereq for many med schools but it is for dental

We like to go overboard on this ourselves!

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Mcat has not dumped physics...still almost half of the ps section. (your specific exam may not have had much)

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

For the same reasons the US Navy has the SEALs and the Army has the Delta forces.

I wouldn't equate Penn and Wash U students with the SEALS and Delta Forces when compared to students from other selective schools. Are they elite? Of course. But so are the Hopkins, Duke, UCSF, and Harvard (I believe it had a 36 median in 2013) kids. I get that certain schools have the luxury of being picky and I'm not complaining about these high numbers. I just think it can get a tad excessive when it comes to the MCAT in a few cases

I mean, look at Baylor. Its students seem to do very well on their boards and its median MCAT is a few points below Penn's.

 

[steelersfan1243]

Does it not seem bothering that classes are geared towards premeds? Why must biochem II consist of memorizing useless pathways when it could be much more meaningful?

 

[efle]

I wouldn't equate Penn and Wash U students with the SEALS and Delta Forces when compared to students from other selective schools. Are they elite? Of course. But so are the Hopkins, Duke, UCSF, and Harvard (I believe it had a 36 median in 2013) kids. I get that certain schools have the luxury of being picky and I'm not complaining about these high numbers. I just think it can get a tad excessive when it comes to the MCAT in a few cases

I mean, look at Baylor. Its students seem to do very well on their boards and its median MCAT is a few points below Penn's.

Nope washu is specops compared to everyone else

 

[p0gono]

Mcat has not dumped physics...still almost half of the ps section. (your specific exam may not have had much)

I see 25% of only 1 section, right? That's 6% of the whole exam.

And going through the official guide, at least 2/3 of the *questions* they say cover physics topics were to the level that they were covered in my own chemistry and physiology courses.

For sure, I agree that the amount of physics may depend on administration, and where you can get that info depends on the college or course.

Granted, the number of topics from physics that are "fair game" haven't been cut much, but their relative importance and required depth of understanding has substantially dropped. At least from what I can tell.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Does it not seem bothering that classes are geared towards premeds? Why must biochem II consist of memorizing useless pathways when it could be much more meaningful?

well biochem is about chemical pathways in living organisms...a basic undergrad course would cover stuff like metabolism.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I see 25% of only 1 section, right? That's 6% of the whole exam.

And going through the official guide, at least 2/3 of the *questions* they say cover physics topics were to the level that they were covered in my own chemistry and physiology courses.

For sure, I agree that the amount of physics may depend on administration, and where you can get that info depends on the college or course.

Granted, the number of topics from physics that are "fair game" haven't been cut much, but their relative importance and required depth of understanding has substantially dropped. At least from what I can tell.

oh you're right! Forgot 50% was biochem now

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Nope washu is specops compared to everyone else

lol so they can raise their median to a 40 and you'd still be above it, right?

 

[efle]

lol so they can raise their median to a 40 and you'd still be above it, right?

Could they? I feel like I did the math about this with resiroth once, and and the top schools if they also wanted to keep a 3.9 median GPA would have to receive an app from every single 40+ scorer, accept basically all of them and get more than 2/3 acceptees to matriculate

 

[Goro]

Penn, WashU, Harvard (now a 37 median), Stanford, Pritzker, Cornell, U MI, Yale are all at the same level. SOCOM, as pointed out.

The other NYC titans, Duke, Vandy, NW, Pitt, Baylor, U MI, UCSD, U VA? They're the Rangers

Keck, BU, Emory, Einstein, UCLA, Hofstra (yes, Hofstra), Rochester? The Marines and Airborne.

Everyone else? Grunt infantry!

I wouldn't equate Penn and Wash U students with the SEALS and Delta Forces when compared to students from other selective schools. Are they elite? Of course. But so are the Hopkins, Duke, UCSF, and Harvard (I believe it had a 36 median in 2013) kids. I get that certain schools have the luxury of being picky and I'm not complaining about these high numbers. I just think it can get a tad excessive when it comes to the MCAT in a few cases

I mean, look at Baylor. Its students seem to do very well on their boards and its median MCAT is a few points below Penn's.

Colleges don't mind where tuition dollars come from. My wife, who has a PhD in Biochem, says that "Biochemistry is chemistry with a purpose."

Does it not seem bothering that classes are geared towards premeds? Why must biochem II consist of memorizing useless pathways when it could be much more meaningful?

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Could they? I feel like I did the math about this with resiroth once, and and the top schools if they also wanted to keep a 3.9 median GPA would have to receive an app from every single 40+ scorer, accept basically all of them and get more than 2/3 acceptees to matriculate

Oh gosh, so that's what's been keeping Wash U from that 40 median

But all jokes aside, if your math is right (and I think @mehc012 once tried to calculate this as well), it's supporting the argument that a 99th percentile median MCAT is a bit excessive.

 

[a_borgia]

You can still be very picky with a median MCAT in the 95th-97th percentile range... I don't think that small drop would impact the more stat-obsessed schools. If anything, it may actually give them a more diverse class.

There need not be an implication that a high scoring class can't be a diverse class. If 80k people take the MCAT, that's still 4k people in the top 2%, and it's impossible to claim that you cannot pick a diverse group of individuals out of four thousand students.

 

[a_borgia]

Does it not seem bothering that classes are geared towards premeds? Why must biochem II consist of memorizing useless pathways when it could be much more meaningful?

Given how many pathways come up on the MCAT, I think they're pretty useful. If you still disagree with me, pull up the wikipedia article on a pathway of your choice and see how many pathologies are directly affiliated. Knowing pathways is just as important as knowing how neurons works, or how muscles contract.

 

[efle]

Oh gosh, so that's what's been keeping Wash U from that 40 median

But all jokes aside, if your math is right (and I think @mehc012 once tried to calculate this as well), it's supporting the argument that a 99th percentile median MCAT is a bit excessive.

I once asked an ad com member here what caused them to emphasize stats even beyond the likes of Harvard and Hopkins and they said MCAT+GPA was what they'd found to be the best predictor, whatever that means...I'm guessing it means volunteering hours etc doesn't make for higher steps and more people going into competitive specialties / residencies

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Penn, WashU, Harvard (now a 37 median), Stanford, Pritzker, Cornell, U MI, Yale are all at the same level. SOCOM, as pointed out.

The other NYC titans, Duke, Vandy, NW, Pitt, Baylor, U MI, UCSD, U VA? They're the Rangers

Keck, BU, Emory, Einstein, UCLA, Hofstra (yes, Hofstra), Rochester? The Marines and Airborne.

Everyone else? Grunt infantry!



Colleges don't mind where tuition dollars come from. My wife, who has a PhD in Biochem, says that "Biochemistry is chemistry with a purpose."

So I guess by your standards, Mayo would be part of the grunt infantry and of course I'd disagree But that's cool -no pun intended

 

[p0gono]

So I guess by your standards, Mayo would be part of the grunt infantry and of course I'd disagree But that's cool -no pun intended

Mayo is a secret guerrilla squad overseen by the CIA.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I once asked an ad com member here what caused them to emphasize stats even beyond the likes of Harvard and Hopkins and they said MCAT+GPA was what they'd found to be the best predictor, whatever that means...I'm guessing it means volunteering hours etc doesn't make for higher steps and more people going into competitive specialties / residencies

Well UCSF and Hopkins do just as well with their non-stratospheric medians. Additionally, if I were the dean of a fancy institution, I'd lower the bar a notch if it meant that more students would go into primary care.

 

[Nietzschelover]

There need not be an implication that a high scoring class can't be a diverse class. If 80k people take the MCAT, that's still 4k people in the top 2%, and it's impossible to claim that you cannot pick a diverse group of individuals out of four thousand students.

How do you get 2% out of 4K from 80K?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Mayo is a secret guerrilla squad overseen by the CIA.

And Cleveland Clinic?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Given how many pathways come up on the MCAT, I think they're pretty useful. If you still disagree with me, pull up the wikipedia article on a pathway of your choice and see how many pathologies are directly affiliated. Knowing pathways is just as important as knowing how neurons works, or how muscles contract.

Haha....80+ on 80+ crime.