Contract non renewal

[colbgw02]

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I am not sure what that means exactly. I was born in the 80's. But again I am not understanding your point. Ifyou'd like to clarify I am happy to listen. I don't like it when people make vague statements about others and generalize about others rather than being specific. And classifying millions upon milions of people (ie - people born in the 1980's) based on random statements is not wise. Individuals are individuals. Classifying people into *groups* and thinking their actions follow some sort of linear, non-logical, non thought out pattern just because they fall into *x* category is judgmental and outright silly.

It's like me saying oh yeah those baby boomers - they are destroying the economy those jerks! People are people. Realize that.

Double checks for even a hint of awareness of the irony.

Sees none.

 

[Piebaldi]

no, its like you saying all IMGs are shady and dishonest...you didn't get that? Frankly classifying the hundreds upon thousands of people, many who will be your colleagues (and even your attending in that fellowship you are soon joining)as shady and dishonest is probably the unwise move.

and mine is that generation that CBS watch seemed to forget...which is actually kinda appropriate.

I don't think that you would know who my attending will be - so again you are making statements that you don't know about. Further I never said that ALL IMGs are shady and dishonest. From my experience I have had more experiences of shadyness with IMGs than AMGs.

 

[GoSpursGo]

As fascinating as this discussion about the general shadiness of IMGs (or lack thereof) is, it's not relevant to the OP's situation. Let's please try to stay on topic.

 

[Piebaldi]

As fascinating as this discussion about the general shadiness of IMGs (or lack thereof) is, it's not relevant to the OP's situation. Let's please try to stay on topic.

Agreed

 

[Gastrapathy]

I’ve talked to my program yesterday and they told me that they discussed with their legal team how best to incorporate my request for a more lenient disciplinary action and they recommend me to go through formal appeal process. I’m thinking is it even worth appealing? as the one who took this decision of non renewal is going to be the chair of the appeal committee as per our program rules. Is it better for me to resign and look for PGY2 positions as I didn’t sign any paperwork till date.

This is a little tough to decipher. If you are asking whether you should resign rather than complete PGY-2, that is a very bad idea. At least with 2 years of GME, you are potentially able to get a license in some states: FSMB | State-Specific Requirements For Initial Medical Licensure

 

[Piebaldi]

This is a little tough to decipher. If you are asking whether you should resign rather than complete PGY-2, that is a very bad idea. At least with 2 years of GME, you are potentially able to get a license in some states: FSMB | State-Specific Requirements For Initial Medical Licensure

While that is true, these days, very few if any places would hire a person that has not completed a full residency. there is ample supply in the vast majority of places for providers. I wouldn't hire someone with just 2 years of training. Would you?

 

[colbgw02]

While that is true, these days, very few if any places would hire a person that has not completed a full residency. there is ample supply in the vast majority of places for providers. I wouldn't hire someone with just 2 years of training. Would you?

This is a bad post. For one, I reject the assertion regarding an ample supply. There are huge swaths of this country that need, I dare say are desperate for, providers. Just Google "doctor shortage". Secondly, even taken rhetorically, whether Gastrapathy would hire someone is wholly immaterial. The idea that the OP won't get a typical attending job without finishing residency is implicit and not the issue. Rather, the OP is now faced with the possibility that he/she may not get a job practicing medicine at all, a possibility made all the more likely by not finishing up the year, hence Gastrapathy's post.

 

[Piebaldi]

This is a bad post. For one, I reject the assertion regarding an ample supply. There are huge swaths of this country that need, I dare say are desperate for, providers. Just Google "doctor shortage". Secondly, even taken rhetorically, whether Gastrapathy would hire someone is wholly immaterial. The idea that the OP won't get a typical attending job without finishing residency is implicit and not the issue. Rather, the OP is now faced with the possibility that he/she may not get a job practicing medicine at all, a possibility made all the more likely by not finishing up the year, hence Gastrapathy's post.

There isn't a *doctor shortage* Certain sources say that, and that claim has been repeatedly refuted. There is a primary care shortage in certain areas of the country. Sure. With the ever increasing army of NPs and PAs, however, that need is diminishing. Many many many areas in the countries are fully saturated with physicians particularly specialists. I can't walk 2 blocks in my area without finding a myriad of specialists.
So I disagree with you regarding the physician shortage in general.
Also unless something very drastic has happened we are all entitled to our viewpoints.
It is in my opinion that it is not worth anything to complete only 2 years of training. OP will likely not get hired, and it is likely a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. Further if OP needs a visa, etc. taht will make employment options even less.
AGain I have a right to my opinion - just like you have a right to yours.
At the end of the day we are all providing our thoughts and opinions. For all we know the OP will set up a Botox clinic and make millions without finishing residency, or cure cancer or whatever. But it's all a guess.

 

[deleted480308]

Many states will give a license after 1 yr, open a cash clinic and you can charge for incompetent care

 

[Piebaldi]

Many states will give a license after 1 yr, open a cash clinic and you can charge for incompetent care

Precisely.

 

[Raryn]

Many states will give a license after 1 yr, open a cash clinic and you can charge for incompetent care

Not if you're an FMG/IMG. Then the number of states that will license you after one year of GME is down to one (Georgia)

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This thread continues to dangerously veer off the rails of professional discourse.

Hopefully back on track:

I’ve talked to my program yesterday and they told me that they discussed with their legal team how best to incorporate my request for a more lenient disciplinary action and they recommend me to go through formal appeal process. I’m thinking is it even worth appealing? as the one who took this decision of non renewal is going to be the chair of the appeal committee as per our program rules. Is it better for me to resign and look for PGY2 positions as I didn’t sign any paperwork till date.

If your program is "recommending" you go through the appeals process, what they are likely really saying is "No, we will not give you a more lenient disciplinary action, and if you want to force the issue you'll need to appeal it". I do not think they are saying "Sure, we would be happy to be more lenient, let's do this appeal thing and we'll come up with a better solution".

So, the options I laid out above are the same, with the new and serious wrinkle that you're on a J visa.

If you resign from your current position, your visa ends immediately. You must vacate the country, or obtain another visa status. This seems like a very bad idea.

If you finish the year, you likely get a 1 month grace period from your J visa. You get this grace period if you "successfully complete the program". One can argue whether completing a PGY-2 contract and not getting a PGY-3 contract counts as "successful".

The only situation where I would leave your current program before the end of the year is where you find a new PGY-2 spot who is willing to hire you immediately -- that way you transfer from one employer to another with no gap.

Completing only 2 years will be a huge problem. You'll need a J waiver to continue, getting one without completing residency will be very difficult. Even if you could get a medical license with 2 years experience, you can't work without a visa.

 

[MediCane2006]

Not if you're an FMG/IMG. Then the number of states that will license you after one year of GME is down to one (Georgia)

I mean there are worse places to live....

(But I get it’s not for everyone)

 

[doc05]

I mean there are worse places to live....

(But I get it’s not for everyone)

Worse? No. Just as bad? Yes.

 

[Mass Effect]

There isn't a *doctor shortage* Certain sources say that, and that claim has been repeatedly refuted. There is a primary care shortage in certain areas of the country. Sure. With the ever increasing army of NPs and PAs, however, that need is diminishing. Many many many areas in the countries are fully saturated with physicians particularly specialists. I can't walk 2 blocks in my area without finding a myriad of specialists.
So I disagree with you regarding the physician shortage in general.
Also unless something very drastic has happened we are all entitled to our viewpoints.
It is in my opinion that it is not worth anything to complete only 2 years of training. OP will likely not get hired, and it is likely a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. Further if OP needs a visa, etc. taht will make employment options even less.
AGain I have a right to my opinion - just like you have a right to yours.
At the end of the day we are all providing our thoughts and opinions. For all we know the OP will set up a Botox clinic and make millions without finishing residency, or cure cancer or whatever. But it's all a guess.

I'm curious where you are in training. Your view seems very skewed and not at all the norm among those of us at the end of training/job-hunting. I get no less than 10 emails a day and another 5 texts a day with various job opportunities in my specialty and that isn't counting the various industry job boards that list multiple jobs a day. There absolutely IS a need for doctors and they're not all PCPs.

To the OP, I would not resign in the middle of any year. I would see through the appeal process and finish PGY 2. I'm surprised they'd be willing to not renew you for this reason. It's ordinarily difficult to terminate/not renew a resident, but in this case, it seems they mean business.

 

[Piebaldi]

I'm curious where you are in training. Your view seems very skewed and not at all the norm among those of us at the end of training/job-hunting. I get no less than 10 emails a day and another 5 texts a day with various job opportunities in my specialty and that isn't counting the various industry job boards that list multiple jobs a day. There absolutely IS a need for doctors and they're not all PCPs.

To the OP, I would not resign in the middle of any year. I would see through the appeal process and finish PGY 2. I'm surprised they'd be willing to not renew you for this reason. It's ordinarily difficult to terminate/not renew a resident, but in this case, it seems they mean business.

I am an attending. Like I have said, my area is extensively saturated, and there are few jobs in just about every specialty, even less in small specialty fields. I don't think you read what I wrote. I never said there is no *need* for doctors I said that there isn't a *shortage* of doctors, PARTICULARLY specialists. In the area where I'm at, you can find tons of every possible specialist of any kind you could ever want. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a specialist.

In regards to your other statement regarding the OP, no, it is not surprising at all that they would not renew the OP. The OP committed a dishonest, unprofessional act. That is taken seriously in residency. It is not difficult to terminate a resident. Residents are terminated every year across the country, across hospitals and specialties for various reasons- even on this forum you can see numerous threads about residents being terminated.

 

[mvenus929]

I’ve talked to my program yesterday and they told me that they discussed with their legal team how best to incorporate my request for a more lenient disciplinary action and they recommend me to go through formal appeal process. I’m thinking is it even worth appealing? as the one who took this decision of non renewal is going to be the chair of the appeal committee as per our program rules. Is it better for me to resign and look for PGY2 positions as I didn’t sign any paperwork till date.

Talk to your GME contact outside your program. Last time I was involved with someone we were looking to terminate or out on probation, the “appeal” was basically GME coming in and seeing if the PD dotted all their i’s and crossed all their t’s. It didn’t actually appeal the decision being made, just whether or not the process was followed correctly.

So if your program is saying go through the appeals process, they’re not going to change their mind. Best start looking for a new position.

 

[rokshana]

There isn't a *doctor shortage* Certain sources say that, and that claim has been repeatedly refuted. There is a primary care shortage in certain areas of the country. Sure. With the ever increasing army of NPs and PAs, however, that need is diminishing. Many many many areas in the countries are fully saturated with physicians particularly specialists. I can't walk 2 blocks in my area without finding a myriad of specialists.
So I disagree with you regarding the physician shortage in general.
Also unless something very drastic has happened we are all entitled to our viewpoints.
It is in my opinion that it is not worth anything to complete only 2 years of training. OP will likely not get hired, and it is likely a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. Further if OP needs a visa, etc. taht will make employment options even less.
AGain I have a right to my opinion - just like you have a right to yours.
At the end of the day we are all providing our thoughts and opinions. For all we know the OP will set up a Botox clinic and make millions without finishing residency, or cure cancer or whatever. But it's all a guess.

unless , of course, they don't agree with yours...then you will basically tell them they are wrong because you disagree with them...if that is not the tone you are meaning to put out here, then you need to re-read your postings of late.

 

[Piebaldi]

unless , of course, they don't agree with yours...then you will basically tell them they are wrong because you disagree with them...if that is not the tone you are meaning to put out here, then you need to re-read your postings of late.

I am ok with other people thinking differently than me. I have no problem with that. i provide my opinion and thoughts based on my experience. others are welcome to do the same. If you note, I have not told anyone they are *wrong* but I have been told that my post is bad. Interesting.
You have your opinions and you are welcome to them. So am I.
So if you and others want to think there's a physician shortage I'm ok with that. I disagree with that statement for example. Doesn't make any of us bad people or wrong, etc.
Live and let live.

 

[Raryn]

There isn't a *doctor shortage* Certain sources say that, and that claim has been repeatedly refuted. There is a primary care shortage in certain areas of the country. Sure. With the ever increasing army of NPs and PAs, however, that need is diminishing. Many many many areas in the countries are fully saturated with physicians particularly specialists. I can't walk 2 blocks in my area without finding a myriad of specialists.
So I disagree with you regarding the physician shortage in general.
Also unless something very drastic has happened we are all entitled to our viewpoints.
It is in my opinion that it is not worth anything to complete only 2 years of training. OP will likely not get hired, and it is likely a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. Further if OP needs a visa, etc. taht will make employment options even less.
AGain I have a right to my opinion - just like you have a right to yours.
At the end of the day we are all providing our thoughts and opinions. For all we know the OP will set up a Botox clinic and make millions without finishing residency, or cure cancer or whatever. But it's all a guess.

It's complicated.

In certain markets (such as yours) there is absolutely no doctor shortage. In fact, there's a glut of doctors in say, Boston, San Francisco, Portland, parts of NYC, etc. That's why doctors in those areas make substantially less money than they would if they worked outside of them. If I moved to one of those cities, my pay would probably go down 15-20%.

And yet, there's absolutely a shortage, for primary care and for specialists, in huge swaths of the country. I could practically double my salary tomorrow if I wanted to move to rural Texas or to Wyoming.

So is there a shortage or is there no shortage? These facts are difficult to reconcile. There is certainly a maldistribution of physicians - if you were a Stalinesque central planner, you'd probably move some docs out of Manhattan to central Texas. But if we perfectly distributed all of the current physicians, would there still be a shortage?

Maybe. Every person who does that analysis gets a slightly different result, mostly dependant on what answer they want to get and the time spans you're looking at. You can look at white papers for physicians as a whole and for specific specialties to see the numbers. For example, for surgical specialties, from a report done by the government (probably as objective as you can imagine):

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...rch/projections/surgical-specialty-report.pdf

It estimates a shortage of ~10% of general surgeons by 2025 and further shortages of everything but colorectal surgery. You can read the assumptions they made in the paper itself.

I personally think we will have shortages overall and of specific specialties in general, which will be worse in places where no one wants to live. But you could reasonably argue that the overall number will be OK but poorly distributed.

Regardless though, that won't help the people of central TX.

 

[Gastrapathy]

attending or not, the overall state of physician supply and demand is irrelevant. walking away now is terrible advice and closes every door.

It just took me 30 sec to find the OP a couple jobs that sponsor and don’t require BE/BC:
Urgent Care Physician at Davita Medical Group

Urgent Care Physician at Lake Health

He needs to get a green card and work his way back in. He should be focused on finishing the year and finding a job so he can get the license rolling ASAP. He will probably have to leave and return anyway

 

[Piebaldi]

It's complicated.

In certain markets (such as yours) there is absolutely no doctor shortage. In fact, there's a glut of doctors in say, Boston, San Francisco, Portland, parts of NYC, etc. That's why doctors in those areas make substantially less money than they would if they worked outside of them. If I moved to one of those cities, my pay would probably go down 15-20%.

And yet, there's absolutely a shortage, for primary care and for specialists, in huge swaths of the country. I could practically double my salary tomorrow if I wanted to move to rural Texas or to Wyoming.

So is there a shortage or is there no shortage? These facts are difficult to reconcile. There is certainly a maldistribution of physicians - if you were a Stalinesque central planner, you'd probably move some docs out of Manhattan to central Texas. But if we perfectly distributed all of the current physicians, would there still be a shortage?

Maybe. Every person who does that analysis gets a slightly different result, mostly dependant on what answer they want to get and the time spans you're looking at. You can look at white papers for physicians as a whole and for specific specialties to see the numbers. For example, for surgical specialties, from a report done by the government (probably as objective as you can imagine):

https://bhw.hrsa.gov/sites/default/...rch/projections/surgical-specialty-report.pdf

View attachment 248465

It estimates a shortage of ~10% of general surgeons by 2025 and further shortages of everything but colorectal surgery. You can read the assumptions they made in the paper itself.

I personally think we will have shortages overall and of specific specialties in general, which will be worse in places where no one wants to live. But you could reasonably argue that the overall number will be OK but poorly distributed.

Regardless though, that won't help the people of central TX.

I think that is actually a well balanced response, and actually a good statement - there is a maldistribution of physicians for sure. I agree with you, I could make much more money if I moved to Texas, and not even in Central Texas. Although again if you look at a place like Austin it is incredibly saturated, obviously because people want to be there, and in that case I would probably make less money than I do now. So maldistribution is right.

 

[Piebaldi]

attending or not, the overall state of physician supply and demand is irrelevant. walking away now is terrible advice and closes every door.

It just took me 30 sec to find the OP a couple jobs that sponsor and don’t require BE/BC:
Urgent Care Physician at Davita Medical Group

Urgent Care Physician at Lake Health

He needs to get a green card and work his way back in.

Just because it does not say it is require does not mean that it's not. And the vast majority of jobs require residency training - a completed residency. A post frequently leaves out a lot of things. And you will notice that one of those jobs even says 1 year exp. That implies typically post grad job. The requirements in those postings are minimal, so Im sure there are more requirements than they are letting on.

I agree though that walking away now is a bad idea.

 

[Swap7]

I’ve tried to talk to my program again to discuss what would be the best course of action and she told me that appeal is the best thing to do and there might be a fair chance of reversal. They mentioned as I went there to discuss they are gonna take it as consent to appeal and start appeal process. I said okay. They mentioned that I have to put everything on paper and they told me they are gonna help me in writing it and asked me to get letters from attendings in my support. I don’t know how to take this response? How many letters would be good?

 

[Gastrapathy]

You really are argumentative. The jobs exist. He needs to find them.

 

[Piebaldi]

I’ve tried to talk to my program again to discuss what would be the best course of action and she told me that appeal is the best thing to do and there might be a fair chance of reversal. They mentioned as I went there to discuss they are gonna take it as consent to appeal and start appeal process. I said okay. They mentioned that I have to put everything on paper and they told me they are gonna help me in writing it and asked me to get letters from attendings in my support. I don’t know how to take this response? How many letters would be good?

Get as many as you can. I would be humble, and meek, and show the massive appreciation you have for the program, how much you owuld love to continue being in the program, how incredibly sorry you are for what you did, the lesson you learned, etc

 

[Piebaldi]

You really are argumentative. The jobs exist. He needs to find them.

Not sure how that is the case, but alas. Just pointing out certain things.

 

[Raryn]

You really are argumentative. The jobs exist. He needs to find them.

To be fair, as pointed out by APD, they probably don't exist if he's on a J visa. J1 waiver jobs are limited to government positions (which will typically only take board eligible folks) and a maximum of 30 people/state in underprivileged hospitals. I doubt they'd take a GP that didn't finish residency for that.

 

[Gastrapathy]

To be fair, as pointed out by APD, they probably don't exist if he's on a J visa. J1 waiver jobs are limited to government positions (which will typically only take board eligible folks) and a maximum of 30 people/state in underprivileged hospitals. I doubt they'd take a GP that didn't finish residency for that.

Why can’t he find a job that would sponsor him for a H1B? It’s going to take more than a month to get licensed so he’s headed back home either way.

OP, I really don’t know what to make of the encouragement to appeal. I feel like it’s kinda like when an impossible patient is encouraged to call the ombudsman or some similar institution. But...maybe there’s a chance so I guess it’s worth it. Your argument can’t be process or fairness related. You had no intention of working those shifts and were in another country. I suppose you could argue that this sort of use of sick time was typical back home and you didn’t expect them to be upset. It’s so egregious that you might argue that you weren’t even trying to hide it which shows you didn’t realize what you had done. Now, however, you truly understand how unacceptable it was and you agree they can not renew you over it. You would just ask that they consider whether any lesser sanction would be possible. This is most likely the end of your opportunity to practice medicine in the US regardless of whether you are fired or not renewed. You hope they could reconsider.

 

[Raryn]

Why can’t he find a job that would sponsor him for a H1B? It’s going to take more than a month to get licensed so he’s headed back home either way.

OP, I really don’t know what to make of the encouragement to appeal. I feel like it’s kinda like when an impossible patient is encouraged to call the ombudsman or some similar institution. But...maybe there’s a chance so I guess it’s worth it. Your argument can’t be process or fairness related. You had no intention of working those shifts and were in another country. I suppose you could argue that this sort of use of sick time was typical back home and you didn’t expect them to be upset. It’s so egregious that you might argue that you weren’t even trying to hide it which shows you didn’t realize what you had done. Now, however, you truly understand how unacceptable it was and you agree they can not renew you over it. You would just ask that they consider whether any lesser sanction would be possible. This is most likely the end of your opportunity to practice medicine in the US regardless of whether you are fired or not renewed. You hope they could reconsider.

Because the J1 is a visa without immigrant intent, that unless you get a waiver position you must spend a minimum of 2 years in your home country before you're eligible for an H.

 

[Swap7]

Because the J1 is a visa without immigrant intent, that unless you get a waiver position you must spend a minimum of 2 years in your home country before you're eligible for an H.

Can I work on J2 EAD

 

[Raryn]

Can I work on J2 EAD

A J-2 is the spouse/dependant of a J1. If you're on a J1 yourself, you cannot.

If your spouse is also on a J1, after your own J1 lapses (due to loss of employment) you *might* be able to get a J2 based on their visa and subsequently get an EAD, but I actually don't know if that's legally kosher if you've been on a J1 yourself. Ask an immigration attorney.

 

[evilbooyaa]

There isn't a *doctor shortage* Certain sources say that, and that claim has been repeatedly refuted. There is a primary care shortage in certain areas of the country. Sure. With the ever increasing army of NPs and PAs, however, that need is diminishing. Many many many areas in the countries are fully saturated with physicians particularly specialists. I can't walk 2 blocks in my area without finding a myriad of specialists.
So I disagree with you regarding the physician shortage in general.
Also unless something very drastic has happened we are all entitled to our viewpoints.
It is in my opinion that it is not worth anything to complete only 2 years of training. OP will likely not get hired, and it is likely a dangerous thing to do in my opinion. Further if OP needs a visa, etc. taht will make employment options even less.
AGain I have a right to my opinion - just like you have a right to yours.
At the end of the day we are all providing our thoughts and opinions. For all we know the OP will set up a Botox clinic and make millions without finishing residency, or cure cancer or whatever. But it's all a guess.

Prison medicine has generally been advertised as a place for people who have a full license (which OP should be able to obtain after completing PGY-2) without completing residency training. Same for urgent cares in non-desireable areas.

Your experience in (what I'm assuming is a non-rural area) is not par for the course.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions and you don't have to hire OP, but OP is much better off completing PGY-2 to confirm that they can get a full license (I believe some states have rules that IMGs have to complete 2 years of residency to get a full license) to keep their job options open.

This is separate from the OP's visa issues as described by aPD and Raryn

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Regarding visas:

As already mentioned, an H visa is not an option. A J-1 visa for residency includes a 2 year home residency requirement (2 yr HRR) which means you can't get a visa with any immigration potential until you return to your home country (wherever sponsored the J) for 2 years. This would exclude the OP from H, O, TN, or any other type of work visa that a physician might use. Even marrying a US citizen will not solve the problem (although in that case the visa holder can apply for a compassionate exception). Could the OP get a J waiver with only 2 years experience, perhaps in a federal prison? I have no idea, but it actually could be possible.

The OP raised the possibility of a J-2. That's actually a very possible solution to the visa part of this problem. If the OP has a spouse on a J-1, then they can switch to a J-2 because it's not a visa with immigration potential, yet allows them to work.

Regarding appeal:
I remain very confused. If your program is encouraging you to appeal and says that the decision could be changed, then why don't they just change the decision? Why bother with an appeal?
But if they really recommend it, it's weird, but I'd move forward with the appeal. Getting your job back is really the best outcome here.

 

[Piebaldi]

Regarding visas:

As already mentioned, an H visa is not an option. A J-1 visa for residency includes a 2 year home residency requirement (2 yr HRR) which means you can't get a visa with any immigration potential until you return to your home country (wherever sponsored the J) for 2 years. This would exclude the OP from H, O, TN, or any other type of work visa that a physician might use. Even marrying a US citizen will not solve the problem (although in that case the visa holder can apply for a compassionate exception). Could the OP get a J waiver with only 2 years experience, perhaps in a federal prison? I have no idea, but it actually could be possible.

The OP raised the possibility of a J-2. That's actually a very possible solution to the visa part of this problem. If the OP has a spouse on a J-1, then they can switch to a J-2 because it's not a visa with immigration potential, yet allows them to work.

Regarding appeal:
I remain very confused. If your program is encouraging you to appeal and says that the decision could be changed, then why don't they just change the decision? Why bother with an appeal?
But if they really recommend it, it's weird, but I'd move forward with the appeal. Getting your job back is really the best outcome here.

Perhaps they are simply going through the channels because they don't want any legal issues - OP did say that they consulted legal team. Every program has to have an appeal option. That's OP's opportunity to present his case obviously. I would be surprised if they said oh yeah sure you'll be all good on appeal. But they have to present it as an option for OP if he wants. I would be surprised if the decision was reversed. It seems more like simply going through the legal hoops.

 

[Mr.S]

You are in big trouble. I'm not sure we have the whole story here, but it doesn't really matter for advice going forward. SOunds like you had two breaks (perhaps a holiday break and a vacation) that were separated by a few days of work, you tried to find a way to take them off, they declined to do so, and so you just "called in sick" anyway.

Not renewing you over behavior like this is completely reasonable in my view. In fact, if they had fired you on your return, that would be justified also. You didn't show up for work. This is a job, you don't get to just not show up when its inconvenient. I might have given you a second chance, if there had been no professionalism issues at all previously (of any sort).

What's done is done, so the question now is how to move forward. I'm not completely surprised that they are "supporting" you. I've done the same for residents I've had to terminate for professionalism problems -- if I think those problems are relatively easy to fix. I doubt you would do this again.

So, options:

1. Try to get reinstated. This is unlikely to work. But, there is a small chance that they notified you of non-renewal, and are waiting to see what you do about it. Come up with a suitable remediation plan yourself, and perhaps they would consider it. "I won't do it again" isn't good enough. The worst they can do is say no.

2. Try to switch to another IM program. You can look for a PGY-3, but many programs will not take PGY-3's. There's no rule about it like there is in FM, but many programs have lots of elective time and roles with minimal supervision, and I wouldn't be comfortable bringing a resident I don't know into a PGY-3. Therefore, you're probably going to need to look for PGY-2 positions. I think this also sends the message that you're willing to repeat an entire year to make up for this error that you've made.

3. Try to switch to a different field, presumably something that requires an IM PGY-1 which you already have done.

4. Appeal it. This is very different from option #1. You would need to make a legal/process argument that you should be renewed. An example is -- how did they know you were not sick for those three days? If they demanded a doc note, do they do so of everyone? If not, that's a process violation. Even if they were super suspicious that you just took the time off, if they don't require doc notes from everyone else, they can't require one of you. Chances are you've already admitted the issue, so I don't know that this would work at all. And you're likely to burn any good will you have with your program.

You haven't mentioned if you're on a visa. That complicates things.

You sure take screwing with peoples livelihood lightly..

 

[Mr.S]

I’m a PGY2 Internal medicine resident my program is not going to renew contract for next year and they asked me to start looking for PGY3 positions. I had 1 week of vacation and then 2 weeks with 3 working days in between. So, I called in sick for those 3 days. I previously bought this issue up and asked if they can rearrange schedule but they denied my request. So, I took it personally did this mistake. My program was pissed regarding the 3 days which I called in sick. I don’t know what to do now. They mentioned that my clinical skills are so good and it’s my professional behaviour that made them to take this decision. They told me that they are willing to write me good LORs. Can anyone please let me know about my chances of getting PGY3 spot. Can I swap? I was given option to appeal but I don’t think it’s going to make any difference as my current PD told that usually they don’t reverse the decisions. Is it wise to quit and go back to my country? What are the options I have? Does talking to my program again and requesting them is going to make any difference? Are there anyone that matched after having non renewal of the contract. Any input is highly appreciated, thank you

Do you think there is ANY possibility that there may be discrimination since you ARE a foreign national?
If so contact the EEOC!
They are obligated to investigate,
That ought to get the program running around for 180 days.
you dont have to make a decision NOW.. you have 300 days i think
I would wait til they give you a good recommendation get situated in your new program then contact the Equal Employment opportunity Commission .. 😍

 

[Gastrapathy]

I can’t think of a less appropriate emoji for that terrible advice.

 

[Mr.S]

I can’t think of a less appropriate emoji for that terrible advice.

Why is it terrible advice?

 

[Piebaldi]

You sure take screwing with peoples livelihood lightly..

He did not screw with anything. OP did not take the massive gift that he got - aka - a training spot in the US, as seriously as he should have. He threw it away and lied in an unprofessional fashion because he just felt that he wanted to take more time off, and lied about being sick. Seriously?

 

[Piebaldi]

Do you think there is ANY possibility that there may be discrimination since you ARE a foreign national?
If so contact the EEOC!
They are obligated to investigate,
That ought to get the program running around for 180 days.
you dont have to make a decision NOW.. you have 300 days i think
I would wait til they give you a good recommendation get situated in your new program then contact the Equal Employment opportunity Commission .. 😍

Like Gastrapathy said this IS terrible advice and a terrible emoji
The OP - again - LIED about being sick, which is a serious violation of one of the 6 core competencies - professionalism. IT has nothing to do with discrimination. Just because he is a foreign national does not give him the right to LIE about wanting to be in his home country for longer than he is allowed. Unbelievable.
And this is why they are allowing his to appeal.

 

[mostwanted]

I think there needs to be a desperation to your apology, like your life depends on it. From reading your posts that doesn’t seem to be the case. Your best option is still to do your best to have the decision overturned.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Mr.S]

He did not screw with anything. OP did not take the massive gift that he got - aka - a training spot in the US, as seriously as he should have. He threw it away and lied in an unprofessional fashion because he just felt that he wanted to take more time off, and lied about being sick. Seriously?

You are so self-righteous. You dont know if he was sick. Its just conincidental that he wanted those days off anyway. Did you examine him? Did anyone? I still maintain report this to the EEOC! Let them investigate it and the program and see if there is discrimination. If he were a pure bred American would this have happened to him?

You have 300 d to report this program and incident to the eeoc. Seriously consider it. you have nothing tonlose at this point.

 

[Mr.S]

Like Gastrapathy said this IS terrible advice and a terrible emoji
The OP - again - LIED about being sick, which is a serious violation of one of the 6 core competencies - professionalism. IT has nothing to do with discrimination. Just because he is a foreign national does not give him the right to LIE about wanting to be in his home country for longer than he is allowed. Unbelievable.
And this is why they are allowing his to appeal.

This is not as serious as you make it out to be.

Plus you dont know that he was not sick. Nobosy does.

 

[deleted480308]

You are so self-righteous. You dont know if he was sick. Its just conincidental that he wanted those days off anyway. Did you examine him? Did anyone? I still maintain report this to the EEOC! Let them investigate it and the program and see if there is discrimination. If he were a pure bred American would this have happened to him?

You have 300 d to report this program and incident to the eeoc. Seriously consider it. you have nothing tonlose at this point.

I generally appreciate some good trolling (and this is not stellar but above average, so kudos). The problem is that it drifts from trolling into really cementing this guys destruction. He might have a chance at begging mercy or potentially getting a moderate recommendation for another program if he just wallows in apologies, begs for working off the wrong, and truly appears to "Get it". If this guy/girl rolls into what the program knows is a completely false racism accusation and brings the EEOC, he will be 100% scorched earth. He will be the topic of every private PD text group, water cooler conversation, off the record reference check talk.....finished.

I'm love russled jimmies on the interwebz, but this idiotic move is only 90% ruined their career, let's not go for 100%

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

m and see if there is discrimination. If he were a pure bred American would this have happened to him?

On the off chance this isn’t a troll post... yes. Yes it would. He lied to his program and didn’t show up to work, when he was legally obligated to do so. That is grounds for resident termination, especially if you have a prior history. We have let residents go for less.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Mr.S]

I generally appreciate some good trolling (and this is not stellar but above average, so kudos). The problem is that it drifts from trolling into really cementing this guys destruction. He might have a chance at begging mercy or potentially getting a moderate recommendation for another program if he just wallows in apologies, begs for working off the wrong, and truly appears to "Get it". If this guy/girl rolls into what the program knows is a completely false racism accusation and brings the EEOC, he will be 100% scorched earth. He will be the topic of every private PD text group, water cooler conversation, off the record reference check talk.....finished.

I'm love russled jimmies on the interwebz, but this idiotic move is only 90% ruined their career, let's not go for 100%

If you are suggesting that he is “scorched earth” for bringing this accusation and it is proven that is even worse. Retaliation for making a claim is even worse than the original discrimination claim even if its bs.Look up sheila white va burlington tante fe railroad. the supreme court made their point clear with a unanimos decision.

 

[deleted480308]

If you are suggesting that he is “scorched earth” for bringing this accusation and it is proven that is even worse. Retaliation for making a claim is even worse than the original discrimination claim even if its bs.Look up sheila white va burlington tante fe railroad. the supreme court made their point clear with a unanimos decision.

I'm aware of the case. But none of that would save their career. I'm explaining what would happen if they make up an EEOC complaint (and frankly what should happen if they make one up) as precedence implying a protection for false whistleblowers is not how it should be.

Again, your advise is really bad

 

[ThoracicGuy]

If you are suggesting that he is “scorched earth” for bringing this accusation and it is proven that is even worse. Retaliation for making a claim is even worse than the original discrimination claim even if its bs.Look up sheila white va burlington tante fe railroad. the supreme court made their point clear with a unanimos decision.

You wouldn't be able to prove the action would be the cause instead of his residency performance and issues.

Plus, any remaining good will would be gone, so forget any attempts to help him find another spot somewhere else.

Also, by the time any complaint would work its way through the system, his medical career in the US would be over.

But sure, the newly graduated anesthesia resident knows more than attendings and program directors here...

 

[Mr.S]

You wouldn't be able to prove the action would be the cause instead of his residency performance and issues.

Plus, any remaining good will would be gone, so forget any attempts to help him find another spot somewhere else.

Also, by the time any complaint would work its way through the system, his medical career in the US would be over.

But sure, the newly graduated anesthesia resident knows more than attendings and program directors here...

i told him to wait 299 days.likely he would have finished residency by then. So the retaliation would be for nil.


Everything youre suggesting is illegal