Contrast questions

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I’m glad to see other interlaminar lovers out there. I too came out of fellowship doing 80+% TFESI, and certainly still do them, but often find myself getting more mileage out of a good paramedian interlaminar.
I get what the published data says but it’s hard to ignore the results in front of your own face. And ILESI are so fast.

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I’m glad to see other interlaminar lovers out there. I too came out of fellowship doing 80+% TFESI, and certainly still do them, but often find myself getting more mileage out of a good paramedian interlaminar.
I get what the published data says but it’s hard to ignore the results in front of your own face. And ILESI are so fast.
I did lumbar rarely until a few months ago and I'm doing more and more of them now.

The results are simply undeniable, especially for spinal stenosis patients. Much better than TFESI in my little world.
 
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Mbb with contrast- trained without. Didn’t use first few years in practice. Articles on vascular uptake rates (creating false negative response, I’m not worried about safety) and some insurance requiring it led me to change my practice. I was shocked how often the contrast did not cover the mb nerve despite textbook needle placement and bevel orientation. I don’t inject it live. Just a quick spot shot after .2-3cc injected per needle. Reposition/re-inject to ensure mb covered. If concern about allergy- I’m fine to skip it as it’s an efficacy, not safety issue.

epidural? Gets contrast. Much prefer pre-medicating over using gad. If I need to use gad it’s tfesi, not interlam. Not worth the risk of IT with gad. I’d be fine to do a lumbar interlam without contrast, not cervical.

tf vs interlam? I was probably 80 tf: 20 il in training and early practice. I’m probably around 50:50 now. One can argue the evidence and what they see clinically..... sometimes it just comes down to suboptimal result with first approach and 2nd esi is with the other. Exception for me is elderly with stenosis. It’s interlam every time. I got sick of having brief relief on bilat tf with dex. I much more consistently get a solid 3-6 months from interlam with depo. Also takes <1 min. Bilat tf with good medial flow in elderly with the usual significant disc collapse, facet hypertrophy, foraminal stenosis.... more time and discomfort for patient.

great points.

contrast with MBB is critical. Avoiding vascular uptake is nice but the biggest reason is to verify that that your medication covers the MBB. 2nd is that Medicare MBB require contrast to be paid.

Without contrast, you‘d be amazed how often you miss. I trained with the North American expert on MBB/RFA, Paul Dreyfuss, and we regularly saw patients who failed RFA after MBB, and when we reviewed the MBB images, we saw either needles out of position, no contrast, or contrast clearly not covering the MBB. Rather sad how little time many docs spend to treat the humans depending on them for pain relief.

agree with Taus on IL VS TF.
I also trained lumbar ESI 80/20 TF/IL, but I now do 30/70, (including caudals). I still start with TFESI for acute radic, but I now use ILESI or S1 vs S2 TFESI with depo as first ESI for every thing else, (stenosis, spondylolithesis with radic, recurrent radic with stenosis and/or recurrent/degenerative disc bulge).

This year, I took over the practice of a physician who retired. He was a good doc, but followed SIS protocols blindly. 95% of his lumbar ESI were TFESI with dex. Most his patients over 50 with a component of stenosis achieved great relief.....for 1-2 weeks. I repeated about 30 of those epidurals as ILESI or S1 with depo, and over 80% Of those patients still have 80% relief now 4 months Later.
 
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This thread pains me for the sole reason it violates a critical appraisal of all that is known via our literature.
as I’ve said about a hundred times.....

The literature studies were only done on acute radiculopathy, not stenosis. The pathophysiology is not the same and you canot assume that TFESI with dex is best for stenosis anymore than you can assume the best treatment for a cold works also for covid, despite them both being a coronavirus
 
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great points.

contrast with MBB is critical. Avoiding vascular uptake is nice but the biggest reason is to verify that that your medication covers the MBB. 2nd is that Medicare MBB require contrast to be paid.

Without contrast, you‘d be amazed how often you miss. I trained with the North American expert on MBB/RFA, Paul Dreyfuss, and we regularly saw patients who failed RFA after MBB, and when we reviewed the MBB images, we saw either needles out of position, no contrast, or contrast clearly not covering the MBB. Rather sad how little time many docs spend to treat the humans depending on them for pain relief.

agree with Taus on IL VS TF.
I also trained lumbar ESI 80/20 TF/IL, but I now do 30/70, (including caudals). I still start with TFESI for acute radic, but I now use ILESI or S1 TFESI with depo as first ESI for every thing else, (stenosis, spondylolithesis with radic, recurrent radic with stenosis and/or recurrent/degenerative disc bulge).

This year, I took over the practice of a physician who retired. He was a good doc, but followed SIS protocols blindly. 95% of his lumbar ESI were TFESI with dex. Most his patients over 50 with a component of stenosis achieved great relief.....for 1-2 weeks. I repeated about 30 of those epidurals as ILESI or S1 with depo, and over 80% Of those patients still have 80% relief now 4 months Later.
S1 is a pretty vascular area dude. I get vascularity there so Depo is...I don't know.
 
great points.

contrast with MBB is critical. Avoiding vascular uptake is nice but the biggest reason is to verify that that your medication covers the MBB. 2nd is that Medicare MBB require contrast to be paid.

Without contrast, you‘d be amazed how often you miss. I trained with the North American expert on MBB/RFA, Paul Dreyfuss, and we regularly saw patients who failed RFA after MBB, and when we reviewed the MBB images, we saw either needles out of position, no contrast, or contrast clearly not covering the MBB. Rather sad how little time many docs spend to treat the humans depending on them for pain relief.

agree with Taus on IL VS TF.
I also trained lumbar ESI 80/20 TF/IL, but I now do 30/70, (including caudals). I still start with TFESI for acute radic, but I now use ILESI or S1 vs S2 TFESI with depo as first ESI for every thing else, (stenosis, spondylolithesis with radic, recurrent radic with stenosis and/or recurrent/degenerative disc bulge).

This year, I took over the practice of a physician who retired. He was a good doc, but followed SIS protocols blindly. 95% of his lumbar ESI were TFESI with dex. Most his patients over 50 with a component of stenosis achieved great relief.....for 1-2 weeks. I repeated about 30 of those epidurals as ILESI or S1 with depo, and over 80% Of those patients still have 80% relief now 4 months Later.
1. "contrast with MBB is critical. "

No, it isn't.

2. "Rather sad how little time many docs spend to treat the humans depending on them for pain relief."

What a ridiculous comment. Rather sad how you actually believe your superiority.
 
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I did lumbar rarely until a few months ago and I'm doing more and more of them now.

The results are simply undeniable, especially for spinal stenosis patients. Much better than TFESI in my little world.
But according to you, your little world is irrelevant.

"This is why research is so important - To protect pts from ppl who merely trust their skills rather than adhere to best practice guidelines "

Make up your mind.
 
But according to you, your little world is irrelevant.

"This is why research is so important - To protect pts from ppl who merely trust their skills rather than adhere to best practice guidelines "

Make up your mind.
merlin_136587177_a704782c-ebb7-43fb-832e-edb9cee8c42a-superJumbo.jpg

Missed it...That's 3...

You need not involve me in your posts going further.

I can't allow you to waste my time.

My point to you was missed completely.
 
I also find that most latex allergies are actually reactions to the adhesive used and not to latex.
 
Theoretically, could using contrast increase your false positive rate by diluting and spreading your local anesthetic? If we are supposed to keep volumes to 0.5cc or less to prevent unwanted spread, would injecting even just half a cc of contrast potentially affect it?
 
Theoretically, could using contrast increase your false positive rate by diluting and spreading your local anesthetic? If we are supposed to keep volumes to 0.5cc or less to prevent unwanted spread, would injecting even just half a cc of contrast potentially affect it?
I only do 0.2-0.3 mL contrast, and the local goes in after so it shouldn’t push the local around much.
 
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A number of posts which were off-topic have been deleted. Please put people that you disagree with on ignore rather than continuing to bicker in public.
 
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“ The administration of contrast medium before administering local anesthetics is recommended to rule out vascular uptake.”

Then contrast should be used for trigger point injections, flu shots, joint injections, GONB, etc.

I don’t care what some SIS guideline says. It’s unnecessary to use contrast for a MBB.
But at least you went from “never heard of this” to not caring what the lead scientific society in Pain Medicine recommends. You have been educated.
 
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Thank you. Great example of why MBB contrast matters and why those not using it are doing their patients a great disservice.

(And apparently they also haven’t read the most definitive, level 1, papers in all of pain medicine)
No one is doing anyone a “great disservice” by not using contrast for MBB....gimme a break.
It’s not necessary.
 
the primary take home message here is: contrast should probably be used in an MBB. if it doesnt, its not the end of the world, but the shot isnt as good.

the secondary message here is: listen to your peers who have been doing this forever. we may just know what we are talking about.
 
the primary take home message here is: contrast should probably be used in an MBB. if it doesnt, its not the end of the world, but the shot isnt as good.

the secondary message here is: listen to your peers who have been doing this forever. we may just know what we are talking about.
I assume that’s directed at me-

I’ve been doing this for a while too- in various geographic locations and with a lot of different people- and I had never even heard of contrast with MBB before a few days ago. I have never seen ANYONE use it.

The real take-home lesson here is that there is more than one way to do things. Several people in this talk have agreed that contrast isn’t necessary for MBB, and it’s really not OK for people to bully others, degrade them, and use profane language because they think they’re right and everyone else is wrong.

I don’t see a role for contrast in MBB. Not using it doesn’t mean the shot “isn’t as good.”

Has anyone done endoscopic rhizotomies where you can often directly visualize the medial branch? It offers a different perspective that might be helpful to some of you. Some of you would probably benefit from working with spine surgeons to gain some better perspective on things. Something like facet blocks isn’t always black and white, like it “worked” or it didn’t.

In addition, pain is so subjective and that’s what I think makes it so difficult to quantify and make protocols in this field. The example where someone showed MBB without contrast that gave 20% relief, and then with contrast that gave 100% relief is a perfect example. I would take those percentages with a grain of salt.
 
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The real take-home lesson here is that there is more than one way to do things.
Contrast for MBB is 1000% unnecessary. I can’t believe anyone actually does this.
So which is it? We shouldn’t criticize you and bring up things like “professional society guidelines” and our experience because there’s more than one right way to do things, but we’re all doing it wrong?
 
So which is it? We shouldn’t criticize you and bring up things like “professional society guidelines” and our experience because there’s more than one right way to do things, but we’re all doing it wrong?
I don’t see a role for contrast for MBB, but I don’t see any harm in it, and I don’t care if you use it or not. Whatever floats your boat. I won’t get angry or attack anyone for doing something differently than me.
 
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every now and then ill see IA facet flow from a TFESI. you have to be pretty far off on an ILESI
 
you might think it is not necessary.

but apparently CMS thinks it is.

A hard (plain radiograph with conventional film or specialized paper) or digital copy image or images which adequately document the needle position and contrast medium flow (excluding RF ablations and those cases in which using contrast is contra-indicated, such as patients with documented contrast allergies), must be retained and submitted if requested.
 
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How does Medicare enforce that?

Is that just another little "catch me F me" they use during an audit?
 
(Sorry for rotation - my phone does that)
Same patient, about a month apart.
20% relief:
View attachment 325052

100% relief (was a lot more careful about the placement)
View attachment 325053
View attachment 325054
Thanks for the images, I am considering trying this on a few patients.

for me, I’m still leaning towards no contrast for an MBB. Just to rule out vascular uptake is not a good enough reason to use contrast, and I would think needle placement can guide you just as well as contrast spread.

frankly, if you want to see spread, you would be doing all your MBBs under ultrasound. Perhaps in the future it will be reimbursed.
 
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Thanks for the images, I am considering trying this on a few patients.

for me, I’m still leaning towards no contrast for an MBB. Just to rule out vascular uptake is not a good enough reason to use contrast, and I would think needle placement can guide you just as well as contrast spread.

frankly, if you want to see spread, you would be doing all your MBBs under ultrasound. Perhaps in the future it will be reimbursed.
“ust to rule out vascular uptake is not a good enough reason to use contrast, and I would think needle placement can guide you just as well as contrast spread.”

100% agree with this
 
“ust to rule out vascular uptake is not a good enough reason to use contrast, and I would think needle placement can guide you just as well as contrast spread.”

100% agree with this
I adjust my statement. If vascular injection is dangerous it’s a good reason, but if “lack of efficacy” of MBB is the reason, I don’t think it’s a good reason.

what are the odds of vascular uptake per needle. Do you think there would be lack of efficacy if one needle out of four is intravascular? Also, you clinical example is anecdotal, pain relief with the first block could have been less than 100% for any number of reasons unrelated to the block.
 
If anybody knows of any paper using contrast for MBB I would be interested.
 
I should do the study.... but just today I had 6 patients with multilevel mbb. All but one patient needed at least one needle adjusted to get the contrast over mbb with low volume. Again... not worried about vascular- I just like to confirm a technically successful injection and not get a false negative.
 
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I adjust my statement. If vascular injection is dangerous it’s a good reason, but if “lack of efficacy” of MBB is the reason, I don’t think it’s a good reason.

what are the odds of vascular uptake per needle. Do you think there would be lack of efficacy if one needle out of four is intravascular? Also, you clinical example is anecdotal, pain relief with the first block could have been less than 100% for any number of reasons unrelated to the block.
1. Like I said before, a MBB is a targeted glorified soft tissue injection. There’s no need to use contrast to rule out vascular uptake anymore than there is for a trigger point injection or a flu shot.
2. “pain relief with the first block could have been less than 100% for any number of reasons unrelated to the block.”
Completely agree with this. I expressed this in a comment earlier. The data isn’t something quantitative like years added to life by a chemotherapy drug- it’s what the patient said about how his back felt after the shot. There are a million other variables that you can’t control for.
 
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1. Like I said before, a MBB is a targeted glorified soft tissue injection. There’s no need to use contrast to rule out vascular uptake anymore than there is for a trigger point injection or a flu shot.
2. “pain relief with the first block could have been less than 100% for any number of reasons unrelated to the block.”
Completely agree with this. I expressed this in a comment earlier. The data isn’t something quantitative like years added to life by a chemotherapy drug- it’s what the patient said about how his back felt after the shot. There are a million other variables that you can’t control for.
Placebo-level degree of relief after the first shot, vs total relief of the patient’s presenting pain within 5 minutes of the injection after the second. That’s a hard endpoint. Will see how she does with the second MBB (and hopefully the RF) though.
 
Placebo-level degree of relief after the first shot, vs total relief of the patient’s presenting pain within 5 minutes of the injection after the second. That’s a hard endpoint. Will see how she does with the second MBB (and hopefully the RF) though.
Why bother to do 2 rounds of MBB unless required by insurance? Why put them through it? Why not just do the RF if the MBB helped them?!?
 
I should do the study.... but just today I had 6 patients with multilevel mbb. All but one patient needed at least one needle adjusted to get the contrast over mbb with low volume. Again... not worried about vascular- I just like to confirm a technically successful injection and not get a false negative.

I’m always adjusting needles. First based on a declined view and second based on contrast flow. It’s a pain in the rear and takes time. Look at a spine model and factor in the variability from person to person. The sulcus between SAP and TP is a small target and you have a tiny amount of local to hit it. It’s sooo easy to end up high on the SAP or on the TP on the first pass. Seriously, the “eye” of the Scottie dog? Wow, that’s a precise location. How many of you oblique 20 degrees and don’t adjust the tilt at every level because it takes too long and it’s “ too much radiation”. So with all of that combined you think you can be certain you hit the MB. You simply cannot. That’s ok if you don’t care what the patient reports, plan to “doozle” the results and proceed to RF. In my heart of hearts I think we would be better off skipping MBB and just do RF.
 
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I’m always adjusting needles. First based on a declined view and second based on contrast flow. It’s a pain in the rear and takes time. Look at a spine model and factor in the variability from person to person. The sulcus between SAP and TP is a small target and you have a tiny amount of local to hit it. It’s sooo easy to end up high on the SAP or on the TP on the first pass. Seriously, the “eye” of the Scottie dog? Wow, that’s a precise location. How many of you oblique 20 degrees and don’t adjust the tilt at every level because it takes too long and it’s “ too much radiation”. So with all of that combined you think you can be certain you hit the MB. You simply cannot. That’s ok if you don’t care what the patient reports, plan to “doozle” the results and proceed to RF. In my heart of hearts I think we would be better off skipping MBB and just do RF.
“ In my heart of hearts I think we would be better off skipping MBB and just do RF.”

Agreed. Axial back pain, no severe canal stenosis, doesn’t seem like SI joint? Why not just RF the worst looking facets? It’s not gonna hurt anyone and will probably help. Pretty harmless. However, someone is gonna make some comment about how it’s not harmless to denervate the mutifidi or whatever...
 
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MBB are utterly pointless and expose every single one of us to large levels of radiation over the course of a career.
 
MBB are utterly pointless and expose every single one of us to large levels of radiation over the course of a career.
Especially if you use contrast!! Just put the needles to bone, take a quick pic, and inject.

Has anyone other than me done a lot of endoscopic rhizotomies? When you can actually see the nerve, it isn’t always exactly where it theoretically should be- and it’s not worth all the effort and radiation to do the MBB as some people in this forum are describing it.
 
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Especially if you use contrast!!

My response to this is that if you must do a procedure you need to do it CORRECTLY. That requires enough time, enough imaging views and contrast.

Also no procedure is benign. As a expert witness I have seen both a spinal cord Infarct and a disastrous discitis associated with MBB both in very experienced hands.
 
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My response to this is that if you must do a procedure you need to do it CORRECTLY. That requires enough time, enough imaging views and contrast.

Also no procedure is benign. As a expert witness I have seen both a spinal cord Infarct and a disastrous discitis associated with MBB both in very experienced hands.
Read the rest of my comment. Honestly I believe that endoscopic rhizotomies helped me understand MBB/RF much better. It’s not as precise as you think it is if you’ve only ever used flouro. When you’ve done enough rhizotomies, and seen that the the nerve isn’t always exactly at junction of SAP/TP, you’ll understand why it’s not worth all the time and radiation that’s involved in doing the MBB the way you’re describing.
IMO, use AP view, identify the junction as best as possible, insert to bone, save a pic, and inject. Once you’ve done some rhizotomies you’ll also have a better feel for if you’re on the facet capsule or beneath it on the TP. There’s only so precise you can be using flouro. RF isn’t gonna hurt anyone, so if I get a good response from MBB, I do it RF.
Working with spine surgeons for a few years really helped me understand this much better, I think. MBB/RF isn’t that precise, is pretty benign, and IMO many of the people commenting here seem to be way overthinking it.
 
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