Converting CPAP for PPV

[PlayToWin]

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So, our hospital has many CPAP machines laying around doing nothing. We are starting get low on ventilators and some do our anesthesia machines maybe used as well. I was reading that CPAP machines can be used for use with ETT. Does anyone understand the gas flow of CPAP machines and how they can be used for invasive ventilation .


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[PainDrain]

So, our hospital has many CPAP machines laying around doing nothing. We are starting get low on ventilators and some do our anesthesia machines maybe used as well. I was reading that CPAP machines can be used for use with ETT. Does anyone understand the gas flow of CPAP machines and how they can be used for invasive ventilation .


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Since many cpap machines lack the ability for supplemental o2 it is difficult to rig them for PPV. You need a valve to add in o2 and dial to a specific FiO2 and also you need to be able to program a RR since the idea behind a cpap is that the patient triggers a breath and the machine is simply reacting by giving continuous PP. Also, in ARDS you need PEEP which cannot be provided by a CPAP machine unless you can rig a valve somewhere into the system.

 

[woopedazz]

Since many cpap machines lack the ability for supplemental o2 it is difficult to rig them for PPV. You need a valve to add in o2 and dial to a specific FiO2 and also you need to be able to program a RR since the idea behind a cpap is that the patient triggers a breath and the machine is simply reacting by giving continuous PP. Also, in ARDS you need PEEP which cannot be provided by a CPAP machine unless you can rig a valve somewhere into the system.

I'm confused. You sound like you're talking about BiPAP?
And CPAP and BiPAP can both provide PEEP?

 

[chocomorsel]

I'm confused. You sound like you're talking about BiPAP?
And CPAP and BiPAP can both provide PEEP?

By virtue of the fact that you’re providing continuous positive pressure throughout inspiratory and expiratory cycle you are providing PEEP.
So yes you are correct.

 

[chocomorsel]

So, our hospital has many CPAP machines laying around doing nothing. We are starting get low on ventilators and some do our anesthesia machines maybe used as well. I was reading that CPAP machines can be used for use with ETT. Does anyone understand the gas flow of CPAP machines and how they can be used for invasive ventilation .


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Never heard of this, but based on how it’s used non invasively, you should be able to use it invasively but only if the patient can trigger their own breath.

They are assistive devices and although I am not an expert on CPAP machines, they aren’t meant to work in a patient with complete respiratory failure that requires the machine to do all the work as in the machine triggering the breaths. They have limited capabilities.

So really you won’t be able to get any more benefit by sticking a tube in the person and rigging it to the CPAP machine, besides the lack of aerosolization of the virus particles.

 

[PlayToWin]

Yes I made a mistake. I mean Bipap.


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[vector2]

Never heard of this, but based on how it’s used non invasively, you should be able to use it invasively but only if the patient can trigger their own breath.

They are assistive devices and although I am not an expert on CPAP machines, they aren’t meant to work in a patient with complete respiratory failure that requires the machine to do all the work as in the machine triggering the breaths. They have limited capabilities.

So really you won’t be able to get any more benefit by sticking a tube in the person and rigging it to the CPAP machine, besides the lack of aerosolization of the virus particles.

Many modern bipap machines (at least in the hospital, don't know about home ones) have backup PPV in case the patient goes straight apenic or below a threshold RR, so essentially a lot of them can do PCV or SIMV

 

[PainDrain]

I'm confused. You sound like you're talking about BiPAP?
And CPAP and BiPAP can both provide PEEP?

By virtue of the fact that you’re providing continuous positive pressure throughout inspiratory and expiratory cycle you are providing PEEP.
So yes you are correct.

I guess I did describe bipap didn’t I?