Cornell and PBL

[researchvet]

Hey there-- I just found out that I was accepted to Cornell and I was hoping that I could get some feedback from those of you who went to the school since they instituted the PBL curicculum. How did you like it? If you are someone who does well with more traditionally based presentations of material (ex: lectures) did you find it difficult to alter your learning style? Two of the vets with who I currently work both said that they did not like the PBL curriculum and that they felt like there wasn't enough direction and focused learning. They went on to say that they felt they had to put in more hours to learn basic information, etc etc. They also both said that they thought the clinics were amazing. I'm going to visit the school but I was hoping to hear more thoughts from those who are in/have graduated from the program. Thank you for your thoughts!

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[Furball]

i'm a first year at cornell now. personally i thought i would enjoy the problem based learning a little more than i did during "block I." I miss it now though, sitting through hours and hours of genetics/cell bio/ pathology lectures. . .

the main difference from more traditional lectures, etc. is that you don't really ever get to hear the information like you would in a lecture, and i think its a little more difficult to predict what you will be responsible for since you don't get the lecture notes, lecture, etc. Most of the tutors are good about helping your group direct your studies/research to what's important.

How long ago did the vets you know attend? I feel like its well established now and most of the instructors have bought in and get the system whereas when it was new it may've been more difficult.

Overall you definitely have to adjust, but everyone is in the same situation and generally helps each other out with finding the best sources and sharing info.

good luck

 

[hoodle]

i'm a first year at cornell now. personally i thought i would enjoy the problem based learning a little more than i did during "block I." I miss it now though, sitting through hours and hours of genetics/cell bio/ pathology lectures. . .

Thanks for explaining, Furball.... so, does that mean that you have LESS PBL after "block 1"? How does this work? I'm pretty excited about cornell, and I come from a liberal arts college with lots of "seminars" - less than 10 people in a room, reading papers, arguing about things, etc. I think my seminar experiences might make PBL seem less foreign, although sometimes I have been so frusturated with my seminar I could scream... which seems like a bad prognostic for a veterinary education entirely of small groups!

 

[Furball]

After Block I you get a short break from PBL, but you still get small groups to go over assignments and discuss concepts in Block II. We go back to PBL for
blocks 3 & 4. During the accepted students session you get a "mock" tutorial group so you can get an idea.

There wasn't any yelling and screaming in my groups. . . everyone is going to have their own dynamic though. They are still a little different from seminars b/c you are learning basics like anatomy or physiology, so you're not arguing over the minutiae of a paper, there is a clear correct answer, for the most part, you just have to figure out who knows it.

 

[hoodle]

They are still a little different from seminars b/c you are learning basics like anatomy or physiology, so you're not arguing over the minutiae of a paper, there is a clear correct answer, for the most part, you just have to figure out who knows it.

That's very interesting, and clearly different from seminars as I know them! Did you think the mock PBL session at the Info Session was representative of the actual experience? What have you thought about Cornell in other ways - other students, facilities, professors, evaluations, caseload, exposure to interesting situations, research, etc? Anything you want to say, I want to hear

 

[BlueCheeseToo]

Anything you want to say, I want to hear

Me too!

I spoke to a few people who go to Cornell now, they really feel that they benefit from PBL. They've told me that it teaches you to "think like a vet," presumably you already have a good degree of background in your area of interest, and so learning to think like a vet should be your main goal. Evidently Tufts has a similar style of teaching although they seem to use it to a lesser degree.

Initially my top choice was Tufts because I'd like to get more involved in wildlife medicine. Cornell was a very close runner up. I spoke to Dr. Flo Tseng (wildlife rehabbers may be familiar with her, she was at the 2007 NYSWRC conference), and asked her about attending Tufts as opposed to Cornell, where I'll have in-state tuition. As a student Dr. Tseng was accepted to Tufts, she turned them down and attended Cornell... she now works at Tufts' wildlife center. She advised that I should attend Cornell, as the difference in price does not correlate with a significant difference in education. That was enough to convince me (unless Tufts wants to give me in-state tuition)!

 

[Angelo84]

Me too!

I spoke to a few people who go to Cornell now, they really feel that they benefit from PBL. They've told me that it teaches you to "think like a vet," presumably you already have a good degree of background in your area of interest, and so learning to think like a vet should be your main goal. Evidently Tufts has a similar style of teaching although they seem to use it to a lesser degree.

Initially my top choice was Tufts because I'd like to get more involved in wildlife medicine. Cornell was a very close runner up. I spoke to Dr. Flo Tseng (wildlife rehabbers may be familiar with her, she was at the 2007 NYSWRC conference), and asked her about attending Tufts as opposed to Cornell, where I'll have in-state tuition. As a student Dr. Tseng was accepted to Tufts, she turned them down and attended Cornell... she now works at Tufts' wildlife center. She advised that I should attend Cornell, as the difference in price does not correlate with a significant difference in education. That was enough to convince me (unless Tufts wants to give me in-state tuition)!

Just thought I'd chime in here. I debated going to Cornell (was accepted off the waitlist) and ended up at Tufts because I feel it has a better balance of lecture and PBL. We get enough PBL to learn to think like a vet (which I really like) but the course information is presented in lecture (it may overlap with the PBL case which reinforces the material) so you don't have to figure it out on your own. Now please return to discussing Cornell I just thought I'd give my persepective.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I imagine the efficacy of PBL depends on the course also. An anatomy course taught PBL would be near impossible, and I dare say you would miss out on a lot of detail that you otherwise would have been forced to learn in lecture, and it would be very difficuly to keep up solo. It is such a quagmire of info that I think you need the direction.

However, in, say, Bacteriology (parts of my Bacti course were taught PBL) I found it very useful - how to diagnose, what is most likely, how to collect a sample properly, what to do do if X or Y shows up....etc....

 

[Furball]

Well, our first anatomy course is combined with embryology and imaging and is PBL. While we are taking it, we have a one credit clinical course going on, but that's it. I think working through the cases, and having to figure out all the structures that are possibly involved, where they came from, what they look like on radiographs, CT, etc. makes the course a bit more engaging than a standard lecture. The clinical overlap also makes it almost like a foreign language immersion course, which is pretty helpful.

That said, our 2nd round of anatomy, which is more specific to the track you're interested in, is coming up soon and is lecture based, so I guess I'll find out soon enough. I think our applied anatomy is not PBL, but idk off the top of my head.

In terms of "figuring it out on your own." We're not exactly thrown to the wolves. The dissection guide we have is pretty comprehensive and serves as a backbone of the info we'll be responsible for. There are tons of faculty members willing and able to help anyone who seeks it. Further, I really think that having to find and process the information somewhat independently allows you to learn it in a more personal and significant way than regurgitating lecture notes, but whatever.

Thinking like a vet, to me, is more than just differentials and sample collection. It is facing a new problem, knowing how to find applicable resources, making sense of them, and then applying them to the situation. That, to me, is the value of PBL.

Lastly . . in regards to this question
"what you thought about Cornell in other ways - other students, facilities, professors, evaluations, caseload, exposure to interesting situations, research, etc? Anything you want to say, I want to hear"

I think its best to make most of those decisions for yourself when you come to visit. You'll get to see the facilities, meet and hang out with students, meet a few professors, etc. I'm not much of a research person at all, but there are plenty of opportunities from what can tell. Evaluations, if you mean exams, seem fair to me, though some of my classmates may disagree.

 

[BlueCheeseToo]

The dissection guide we have is pretty comprehensive and serves as a backbone of the info we'll be responsible for.

Are there any books you worked with this year & are fairly sure they'll be using again next year? Yes I'm a geek, if you thought they were really worthwhile, I'll order them early & look at them over the summer...

I think its best to make most of those decisions for yourself when you come to visit.

Anyone else planning on attending the Feb 1 & 2 session? If so, I'll see you then.

 

[Furball]

I'm pretty sure the only "required" text for Block I is Wheater's Histology. . . Otherwise most veterianary anatomy books would be good if you wanted to go over some things over the summer. "Big" Miller's and "Little" Miller's aka Miller's Anatomy of the Dog by Evans and Guide to the Dissection of the Dog by Evans and DeLaHunta are both fairly popular. Unless you find a good deal, or are unavailable to find the books any other way, you may be better served waiting to buy the books from upperclassmen trying to unload them. often older versions or hand-me-downs are available at or below the cheapest price you'll see on amazon, etc.

Any text you'll need is available in multiple copies in the vet library as well, so buying books isn't really all that necessary unless you can only study/read at home in complete solitude, or only do work after the hours of like ten or eleven or whenever you can convince them to keep the library open till.