Cornell Vs. NC State Vs. UPenn

[doscar3]

My plan is to become an exotic companion animal and small animal veterinarian. I’m still waiting for some decisions but I like to plan ahead… can anyone from these schools speak for program opportunities to work with exotics? Or which would be “best”? Thank you!

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[JaynaAli]

Go to NCSU if those are your options.

Cost of attendance at NCSU is like 215k for OOS since you can get residency after the first year. And it’s under 200k if you're already an NC resident.

For comparison, I just checked the schools websites and Cornell is 284k for IS and 368k for OOS. Penn is 368k for IS and 398k for OOS.

I assure you, as someone who has graduated and been working for quite some time now, there is nothing that Cornell and Penn would provide you over NCSU that is worth spending that extra $153,000-183,000 MORE. (Or even 70k more if your IS is Cornell.) Where you went to school doesn’t matter that much once you’re out working. The “name” and “prestige” doesn’t mean annything to the vast majority of people…and even if it did, it certainly isn’t worth paying hundreds of thousands more. You’ll be a vet at the end regardless so set yourself up for success and go to the cheapest school. There’ll be plenty of opportunities for learning, even if you have to arrange some yourself. The best school is usually the cheapest school. Talk to some recent grads who have student loans and I bet all of them would leap at an opportunity to suddenly have 70-184k less in loans (which is actually way more of a difference than that when you factor in accrued interest and total repayment costs). And even if you aren’t taking loans because you have family help or something, why would you make someone pay so much extra when there is a much more affordable option? And even if Cornell and Penn offer scholarships, I seriously doubt they’re enough to bring the price down anywhere close to the cost of NCSU.

 

[deleted1197566]

Wow first of all congratulations! those are all amazing options.

This is going to be provably different than most of the advice you receive on here but if I was truly in your position I would choose Cornell or UPenn. You have been accepted to the best of the best Ivy League veterinary schools in the country that very few have the honor to be accepted to. To carry the title of where you went to vet school for the rest of your life would be such a privilege and truly a great stepping stone for the future. The previous comment has made solid assumptions about the the cost of attending both schools however, I would encourage you to go where you would feel most happy.

I have good friend is a current vet student a Cornell and has absolutely adored it. I have heard similar things about UPenn. While NC State is a great school I am not 100% sure it is as well respected as the others. I would also pay attention to where you want to live for the next 4-5 years, This could be a great opportunity to live somewhere big like New York and have the opportunity of a lifetime.

Despite what others will say on here like "always go with what is cheapest", life is very short and it is so worth taking those big leaps sometimes and go where you truly feel the most drawn and like you would have the best experience. As an exotic/gp vet you will make good money and so I would not make your decision fully off of what is the cheapest.

Best of luck with your decision <3

 

[vampyrica]

Wow first of all congratulations! those are all amazing options.

This is going to be provably different than most of the advice you receive on here but if I was truly in your position I would choose Cornell or UPenn. You have been accepted to the best of the best Ivy League veterinary schools in the country that very few have the honor to be accepted to. To carry the title of where you went to vet school for the rest of your life would be such a privilege and truly a great stepping stone for the future. The previous comment has made solid assumptions about the the cost of attending both schools however, I would encourage you to go where you would feel most happy.

I have good friend is a current vet student a Cornell and has absolutely adored it. I have heard similar things about UPenn. While NC State is a great school I am not 100% sure it is as well respected as the others. I would also pay attention to where you want to live for the next 4-5 years, This could be a great opportunity to live somewhere big like New York and have the opportunity of a lifetime.

Despite what others will say on here like "always go with what is cheapest", life is very short and it is so worth taking those big leaps sometimes and go where you truly feel the most drawn and like you would have the best experience. As an exotic/gp vet you will make good money and so I would not make your decision fully off of what is the cheapest.

Best of luck with your decision <3

While I understand where you are coming from, I do have a question. Is an additional $100k+ of debt worth the “clout”? Assuming they would have to take out loans for this.

(If they are having their education privately funded or have savings to pay and money isnt an issue, then yeah I would agree to go wherever they want at that point).

 

[Cowsrcool]

. Is an additional $100k+ of debt worth the “clout”?

the answer is NO! I have friends who have attended both institutions and have mixed opinions. Regardless of academic status of a university, you are getting a DVM. UPENN particularly is a debt hole some may never climb out of. I have a friend who dropped out of UPENN bc she hated it so much and another who is currently suffering at Cornell bc she hates their PBL learning style. Many people DO enjoy these institutions but to generalize and say bc they are ivys that they are subsequently the easy choice is just incorrect. I’d also argue I’ve heard much better and “prestigious” things about NCSU’s program😂. All that being said I think the debt is a HUGE consideration. When you are practicing and getting jobs, nobody truly cares where you went to school. A DVM is a DVM at the end of the day.

 

[Cowsrcool]

Id also like to add that going into GP is not a guarantee for high salary to pay off those loans. Especially when we look forward 10-15 years, many are projecting salary cuts as there are so many new schools opening to add more saturation to the job market. And it’s no hate if you want to attend an Ivy! But I do think debt should always be a consideration when deciding, regardless of what kind of practice you plan to do

 

[battie]

No one cares where your DVM (or VMD) comes from. The ivy league prestige doesn't extend to their veterinary programs in the sense of the education or reputation being better.

In addition on the debt: my sister's life insurance policy paid for 4 semesters (out of 10) and my great grandfather left his great-grandkids money that I saved/invested to pay for 2 semesters of vet school. I only took loans out for 4 semesters. On the 10 year plan, I'm paying 1400/month in loans, 550 of which is just interest. This is because I repeated first year and went out of state. That's 17% of my yearly income as an ER vet (hourly in Denver).

The extra debt is *never* worth it. You know what I could do with 1400/month? Retire at 45 or 55.

 

[supershorty]

the answer is NO! I have friends who have attended both institutions and have mixed opinions. Regardless of academic status of a university, you are getting a DVM. UPENN particularly is a debt hole some may never climb out of. I have a friend who dropped out of UPENN bc she hated it so much and another who is currently suffering at Cornell bc she hates their PBL learning style. Many people DO enjoy these institutions but to generalize and say bc they are ivys that they are subsequently the easy choice is just incorrect. I’d also argue I’ve heard much better and “prestigious” things about NCSU’s program😂. All that being said I think the debt is a HUGE consideration. When you are practicing and getting jobs, nobody truly cares where you went to school. A DVM is a DVM at the end of the day.

No one cares where your DVM (or VMD) comes from. The ivy league prestige doesn't extend to their veterinary programs in the sense of the education or reputation being better.

In addition on the debt: my sister's life insurance policy paid for 4 semesters (out of 10) and my great grandfather left his great-grandkids money that I saved/invested to pay for 2 semesters of vet school. I only took loans out for 4 semesters. On the 10 year plan, I'm paying 1400/month in loans, 550 of which is just interest. This is because I repeated first year and went out of state. That's 17% of my yearly income as an ER vet (hourly in Denver).

The extra debt is *never* worth it. You know what I could do with 1400/month? Retire at 45 or 55.

Just retweeting both of these excellent posts.

No one cares about where your degree comes from. It is certainly not worth thousands of dollars more. Go to the least expensive option you have.

 

[Mythical]

I have good friend is a current vet student a Cornell and has absolutely adored it. I have heard similar things about UPenn. While NC State is a great school I am not 100% sure it is as well respected as the others. I would also pay attention to where you want to live for the next 4-5 years, This could be a great opportunity to live somewhere big like New York and have the opportunity of a lifetime.

Sure, if you don’t mind a 5 hour one-way commute to Ithaca

 

[JaynaAli]

No one is saying Penn or Cornell are bad schools by any means or that grads aren’t capable, respected, or happy with their choice. But what we are saying is that it’s not worth thousands and thousands of dollars more for a name no one cares about after you graduate. That’s why I said talk to people who are graduates and actively paying back their loans…reality is different when you’re actually paying vs when you’re an idealistic prevet and vet student.

 

[supershorty]

I have good friend is a current vet student a Cornell and has absolutely adored it. I have heard similar things about UPenn. While NC State is a great school I am not 100% sure it is as well respected as the others. I would also pay attention to where you want to live for the next 4-5 years, This could be a great opportunity to live somewhere big like New York and have the opportunity of a lifetime.

Sure, if you don’t mind a 5 hour one-way commute to Ithaca

@Mythical I almost spit out my coffee laughing at this, you nearly owed me a new laptop screen

 

[Cowsrcool]

No one is saying Penn or Cornell are bad schools by any means or that grads aren’t capable, respected, or happy with their choice. But what we are saying is that it’s not worth thousands and thousands of dollars more for a name no one cares about after you graduate. That’s why I said talk to people who are graduates and actively paying back their loans…reality is different when you’re actually paying vs when you’re an idealistic prevet and vet student.

This! I didn’t mean to insinuate many students are unhappy there, just that sometimes the “prestige” of an Ivy doesn’t always come with a perfect experience. Regardless of that I’d never sacrifice the possibility of getting out of debt by attending one of these schools vs one that offers me the ability to pay of my loans within my lifetime 😭

 

[battie]

the ability to pay of my loans within my lifetime 😭

The big point here is that students who take on any amount of debt don't have their lifetime to pay it off. At least when the loans are directly discharged by the feds. We all only get up to 20 or 25 years to pay off the loans. Every student should know that. At the end of the loans, the IRS will come knocking for the gift tax. So that extra 100k in loans can end up being a 30k+ IRS tax bill in 20-25 years too (without accounting for accruing interest).

 

[Cowsrcool]

The big point here is that students who take on any amount of debt don't have their lifetime to pay it off. At least when the loans are directly discharged by the feds. We all only get up to 20 or 25 years to pay off the loans. Every student should know that. At the end of the loans, the IRS will come knocking for the gift tax. So that extra 100k in loans can end up being a 30k+ IRS tax bill in 20-25 years too (without accounting for accruing interest).

Yikes that’s embarrassing that I truly didn’t know that 🥴 extra emphasis on choose the cheaper option

 

[battie]

Yikes that’s embarrassing that I truly didn’t know that 🥴 extra emphasis on choose the cheaper option

I would argue the majority of veterinarians don't truly realize this tbh based on posts I would see in non-financial Facebook pages. The vast, vast majority of students don't know this at all.

 

[Mythical]

@Mythical I almost spit out my coffee laughing at this, you nearly owed me a new laptop screen

Heh heh… you got it! 😉

Anecdote that is admittedly a small sample size but gives you an idea of how these schools are perceived within the world of vet med, or at least how they were perceived 2 years go:
Of the people in my class (2023) who applied to rotating internships, no one applied to Penn, one person applied to Cornell, EVERYONE applied to NCState… AND ranked it first.

I totally get that the outside world (esp family and friends) buys into the whole Ivy League/big name = “best” thing, but please listen to the wisdom shared by the veteran vets (vet vets?) above.

 

[deleted1197566]

Depending on whether you are allowed to establish in state residency at nc state after the first year or towards the end of the second year, here are the estimated tuition costs for each school for 4 years.

I would really suggest talking to the veterinarians you know in real life. I LOVE SDN and the people on here but it can be a bit of an echo chamber like most things online. I think to get the best idea of who has your best interest it might be best to talk to those veterinarians and family you have in person. If you have family helping you out financially or have savings I would not let the cost be the ONLY determining factor when it comes to picking what school you like.

Regardless where you choose, congratulations on coming this far!

 

[battie]

but it can be a bit of an echo chamber like most things online.

On a technical level for the definition of "echo chamber"? Yeah, I'll give you that when it comes to choosing where to go. Essentially every single veterinarian on this site says to go to the cheapest school and we do purposely, arguably aggressively, argue against taking on excessive debt without exception.

In the *spirit* of the term "echo chamber"? Meh, not so much. The spirit of the term was bourne out from describing people who purposely avoid cultural or political opinions outside of those they believe in and limiting their exposure to outside ideals.

Recommending to pre-vet students that taking an extra 80-120k in loans before interest accrual isn't purposely avoiding other cultural ideals; it's sound financial advice. If you went to a fiduciary (completely outside of the culture of vet med, so not even someone like Tony Bartels) with the same exact question, they would give the same exact answer.

I get that you get out point as far as the finances. I'm responding specifically to the use of the term "echo chamber" for this specific point.

 

[JaynaAli]

No matter where you choose to go and what you’re willing to spend, do keep in mind that interest accrues on your balance even when in school. And this is advice for all the prospective students, not just OP. I’m bringing it up since details of repayment and forgiveness are confusing and often not understood by prospective students. I know I didn’t understand it well until later.

If you do need to borrow the entire cost of attendance (because it’s not just tuition, there are fees and housing and you also need food and health care), you may be borrowing $400,000 to attend Penn, but at an 8% (ish) interest rate you’re going to accrue like 80,000 in interest during school (source for the math: the vin student debt repayment tool), which will capitalize when you enter repayment. And yes, maybe you can reduce costs by finding cheap housing or only eating ramen packets, but it’s still going to cost to exist as a human. Cornell’s 370ish total cost of attendance balance they have posted in their website will accrue like 70-75k of interest while you’re in school. Even the 215k NCSU COA will accrue 40-45k in interest before you even graduate. The interest is what’s killer and it accrues even faster at higher balances. A 212k loan accrues $47 interest per day during repayment. 400k accrues $88 every day. Yes, there’s income based repayment to make things more manageable month to month, but the way things currently stand, the amount forgiven at the end of the 20-25 year repayment period is counted as income on your taxes, so the more that’s forgiven the higher your “income” looks on paper and thus the more you need to have saved to cover your tax burden that year 20-25 years down the line.

Things looked more optimistic with the SAVE repayment plan limiting interest from running away from you, but that’s being litigated and isn’t expected to survive the litigation and new administration. I absolutely hope there’s some interest reform and we don’t have the horrible interest rates we currently have or that what is forgiven isn’t counted as taxable income someday, but all we can do is make recommendations and plan based on what we have now.

 

[Cowsrcool]

I’d argue someone who is close to you but tells you it’s “ok” to take out 400k+ in loans does not have your best interests at heart. Just from personal experience my mentor (whom I ADORE with my entire heart) graduated from veterinary school 30+ years ago and bless him but he has no idea about the current situation of loans and debt and how much schools cost. He told me to “follow my heart” which would have taken me 400k in the debt hole. For me, websites like SDN have opened my eyes to the truth of debt and loans bc I had nobody being honest about it in my personal life except 1 or 2 vets i worked with but not super closely. Just anecdotal info but OP keep your options open and good luck!

 

[deleted1197566]

but it can be a bit of an echo chamber like most things online

By saying it can be a bit of an echo chamber I only meant it as having small aspects of: an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered.

All I'm saying is no one here knows your financial situation or where your family is or where you get in-state tuition so talk to those that do know these things for advice as well!

For most people NC State would be the best/cheapest choice, but if that isn’t the school for you that is also okay!! Don’t be scared off from a choice that may be a better fit for YOU (financially, emotionally, or mentally) <3

 

[vampyrica]

View attachment 396637

Depending on whether you are allowed to establish in state residency at nc state after the first year or towards the end of the second year, here are the estimated tuition costs for each school for 4 years.

I would really suggest talking to the veterinarians you know in real life. I LOVE SDN and the people on here but it can be a bit of an echo chamber like most things online. I think to get the best idea of who has your best interest it might be best to talk to those veterinarians and family you have in person. If you have family helping you out financially or have savings I would not let the cost be the ONLY determining factor when it comes to picking what school you like.

Regardless where you choose, congratulations on coming this far!

What are your sources for these numbers? I have not seen these numbers anywhere. Cornell and Penn are not schools you can obtain IS residency at after a year so all tuition costs will be OOS.

Directly from the UPenn website, a non-resident's tuition and required fees is $297,104 and that is just the required expenses. For a resident, it is $257,104 of required billed expenses by the school UPenn COA (2024-2025). This does not include what the interest would be on these numbers. These are the raw numbers.

For Cornell, the tuition for a non-resident is $64,042 per year (2024-2025), with $660 worth of fees which I am unsure if it is to be paid each year. Assuming it is $660 per year worth of fees, tuition for a non-NY resident is $258,808. For a NY resident, assuming $660 of those fees per year, it is $174, 432 Cornell COA (2024-2025). Once again, the raw numbers.

As for NC State, which DOES allow IS tuition after one year of attendance, IS tuition (2024-2025, raw) is $100,968. I did not see any other mandatory fees in their breakdown but I want to assume there are some there. For non-residents, you would pay one year OOS tuition and then 3 years IS for a total of $133,004 (if you switch your residency). If you would not be interested in gaining residency or domicile in NC, you would pay 4 years OOS tuition which is $226,928. Again, all raw numbers and these don't include any other mandatory fees as they are not outlined on their website NC State COA (2024-2025).

 

[deleted1197566]

What are your sources for these numbers? I have not seen these numbers anywhere. Cornell and Penn are not schools you can obtain IS residency at after a year so all tuition costs will be OOS.

Directly from the UPenn website, a non-resident's tuition and required fees is $297,104 and that is just the required expenses. For a resident, it is $257,104 of required billed expenses by the school UPenn COA (2024-2025). This does not include what the interest would be on these numbers. These are the raw numbers.

For Cornell, the tuition for a non-resident is $64,042 per year (2024-2025), with $660 worth of fees which I am unsure if it is to be paid each year. Assuming it is $660 per year worth of fees, tuition for a non-NY resident is $258,808. For a NY resident, assuming $660 of those fees per year, it is $174, 432 Cornell COA (2024-2025). Once again, the raw numbers.

As for NC State, which DOES allow IS tuition after one year of attendance, IS tuition (2024-2025, raw) is $100,968. I did not see any other mandatory fees in their breakdown but I want to assume there are some there. For non-residents, you would pay one year OOS tuition and then 3 years IS for a total of $133,004 (if you switch your residency). If you would not be interested in gaining residency or domicile in NC, you would pay 4 years OOS tuition which is $226,928. Again, all raw numbers and these don't include any other mandatory fees as they are not outlined on their website NC State COA (2024-2025).

Here are also the sources for my numbers. As I previously stated, I am using tuition costs alone. They are simple calculations. This does not include fees.

Also, as I stated previous "Depending on whether you are allowed to establish in state residency at nc state after the first year or towards the end of the second year, here are the estimated tuition costs for each school for 4 years."

There are two numbers for NC State is because the first number is what you would be able to get if you establish residency after one year and the second number is if you established residency after 2 years. Many students struggle to get In-State Tuition at NC State after the first year alone which is why included that second number.

Yes I am aware that you cannot establish residency in Cornell or UPenn.

 

[deleted1197566]

Here are also the sources for my numbers. As I previously stated, I am using tuition costs alone. They are simple calculations. This does not include fees.

Also, as I stated previous "Depending on whether you are allowed to establish in state residency at nc state after the first year or towards the end of the second year, here are the estimated tuition costs for each school for 4 years."

There are two numbers for NC State is because the first number is what you would be able to get if you establish residency after one year and the second number is if you established residency after 2 years. Many students struggle to get In-State Tuition at NC State after the first year alone which is why included that second number.

Yes I am aware that you cannot establish residency in Cornell or UPenn.


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Hope this helps!

 

[mkg323]

Current Penn student here (although not exotics focused). Penn got rid of their in-house exotics department during Covid and is instead partnered with a local exotics/small animal practice which offers an elective rotation. there are certainly current students that are exotics focused, but they have had to find their own outside opportunities to further their education. I know for a fact NC State has a high exotic caseload, and I've heard nothing but great things about not just the school in general but also the hands-on opportunities 4th years are given in clinics. It is a very well regarded school in the vet field, and frankly if I had gotten in there I would have gone in a heartbeat over Penn. Raleigh is also a great place to live!

 

[chimmerchammer]

I'm a current student at Cornell and I would recommend staying away from our exotics department in its current state. Do not be drawn to Cornell or UPenn over any sense of "prestige".

 

[pp9]

Wow first of all congratulations! those are all amazing options.

This is going to be provably different than most of the advice you receive on here but if I was truly in your position I would choose Cornell or UPenn. You have been accepted to the best of the best Ivy League veterinary schools in the country that very few have the honor to be accepted to. To carry the title of where you went to vet school for the rest of your life would be such a privilege and truly a great stepping stone for the future. The previous comment has made solid assumptions about the the cost of attending both schools however, I would encourage you to go where you would feel most happy.

I have good friend is a current vet student a Cornell and has absolutely adored it. I have heard similar things about UPenn. While NC State is a great school I am not 100% sure it is as well respected as the others. I would also pay attention to where you want to live for the next 4-5 years, This could be a great opportunity to live somewhere big like New York and have the opportunity of a lifetime.

Despite what others will say on here like "always go with what is cheapest", life is very short and it is so worth taking those big leaps sometimes and go where you truly feel the most drawn and like you would have the best experience. As an exotic/gp vet you will make good money and so I would not make your decision fully off of what is the cheapest.

I am super late to this thread, but this might be some of the worst advice I've ever read.

You're right that life is short, but it also gets pretty miserable when you're suffocating in debt. Life gets even shorter for some people as a result. This isn't a wild trip to Target where you spent $200 on random stuff because yolo. This is you telling someone to go into what could possibly end up being $600,000+ in total debt (probably a conservative number) because 'life is short, do something crazy.'

Also, 'good money' is pretty subjective. Vets do not make 'good money' considering the debt they are in. I could get an RN degree in a fraction of the time it took me to get my DVM, and for a fraction of the cost, and make more money than a GP vet considering all of the opportunities available to nurses these days. MDs/DOs graduate with similar debts as DVMs and, for the most part, are able to pay their loans back relatively quickly without utilizing repayment programs. Now *that's* good money. There are physicians in our MD/DO threads talking about how they paid off $350k in loans in under 2 years, or paid off their loans before they even finished their residency. Crazy.

I'm a current student at Cornell and I would recommend staying away from our exotics department in its current state. Do not be drawn to Cornell or UPenn over any sense of "prestige".

Honestly, no one should be going to a specific school because they are interested in zoo/exotics (unless it's your IS anyways), or avoiding a specific school because it doesn't have zoo/exotics.

In all reality, you will interact with the exotics service for a very scant amount of time in your four years of school. If you end up at a school without an exotics service, set up relevant externships like everyone else does and get the real world experience you'll use in practice. You don't need to go to a school with an exotics service to be an exotics vet.