Corporate Dentistry is the Devil and the Profession is Dead..or is it?

[Stanelz]

Now that I have click baited you into this post I just wanted to share my experience with corporate dentistry from a corporate dentistry assistant for the last year and a half since it has been painted in such a negative light on this forum.

Take my thoughts lightly as I am an assistant and cannot speak for doctors but I work in an office where the doctors have become like family to me and share EVERYTHING with me as far as running the practice, finances, staff issues, etc.

Here are some common misconceptions:

1. Corporate dentistry makes you lose complete control

There are two forms of corporate dentistry one type (Option 1) is where you are a pog in the system. You are paid by the day and you make a set amount of money per day with potential bonuses. The second type (Option 2) is something like comfort dental in which you buy into the practice similar to buying a mcdonalds or subway franchise. You own this practice, do all of the hiring, ordering, etc but the upside over private practice is that you are part of a larger "community" so when you order supplies it is cheaper, when you send labs its cheaper, when you need help you can ask other members of the community in a sense.

Why is this advantageous? Option one gives you no responsibility other than the work you put out, You are not responsible for ordering or hiring or anything of that nature, you come to work and you get paid just like any other job. Options two gives you the private practice feel with cheaper overhead and free publicity.

Why is this disadvantageous? You are never fully in control. Option 1 you have no control over anything. Option two you do not control pricing and due to pressure from the bosses you cannot have super fancy equipment and pay your employees top dollar to keep them around leading to high turn over rate. A lot of employees find this as an avenue to start their career as an RDA or front office to gain experience and then move on.

2. Corporate dentists do not make as much as private owners

This is not necessarily true and I want to be careful how I answer this misconception without disclosing private information that I have received. Option one you are paid like an employee a set amount and you may receive a bit more due to experience and what you produce but you are basically locked in for the most part but if you don't want to deal with anything outside of normal hours then its still a great option. Option 2 you can make as much as you can produce because you own the practice. Google the average dentist salary, go ahead, do it. Comfort dental doctors (option 2 type) make way way more than that. How do I know this? don't ask... you'll have to take my word for it and know that I would not make a post like this if I didn't know that information.

Advantages: Option 1 you worry about nothing and make more than the average person still. Option 2 you control how much you want to make based on how hard you wanna work with usually a never ending supply of new patients due to promotions given to the public by your corporate bosses.

Disadvantages: You don't get to set prices unless its a lower price.

3. The scheduling sucks

This is partly true. Corporate office tend to be open M-Sat for extended hours but typically are not working all day. I can't speak for option one here but with my office we are open Mon-Fri 7:30am-7:30pm and Sat 7:30AM-1:30PM. The doctors and staff typically work M-F for 6 hours and around 2 Saturdays a month which sounds terrible but its really not that bad since you are only working 6-7 hours at a time.


4. Corporate dentistry will give the community bad service due to high volume and the product is not as good

"There's more than one way to skin a cat" some people are very particular about how their fillings look and about how long they have to wait. These people are willing to pay the upgrade fee to go private practice. Generally about 50% of people (Statistically) just care about pricing and proximity. I have never seen my bosses do anything unethical. Are their fillings textbook beautiful? no but their patients don't care when they are half the price of private practice. Customers at a corp know what they are signing up for generally and usually no one is disappointed because the doctor will solve their problem for a low cost.

Why is this advantageous? As a corp dentist you are expected to do ethical dentistry but you are not expected to create the most beautiful products. That means you don't have to sit there with a shaping instrument for 20 minutes per filling. Generally just bulk fill, contour the top slightly, check the bite, and move on.

Why is this disadvantageous? You are DEFINITELY busy..well only if you want to make money. You can deny patients if you want or refer them out. You will not have time to sit around and twittle your thumbs like some practice owners but you will constantly be getting better with every patient which is key when you first start as a new dentist. In a corp setting you will absolutely have more patient flow so it will be busier but you will make less per patient.

5. Corporate dentistry does not offer you the ability to grown clinically

This is false but can vary depending on your specific corp. I have one boss that does bread and butter dentistry and he is comfortable with that. I have another boss that does everything from bread and butter to implants, bone grafts, alveoplasty, sinus lifts, lateral sinus lifts, full bony extractions w/comp, veneers, you name it he does it.

6. You can't have a relationship with you patients

At a corp there is no one breathing down your throat telling you to keep going and going. You can pause and build relationship with your patients especially in option 2. In options 2 you get to run the practice as if it is your own so you will always see the same patients and get to build relationship with them

7. You have to pick one or the other

When you start your own practice, it does not necessarily mean you cant work corp. You can do both to supplement your income while you are in the building phase of your practice.


A few really great things about corporate dentistry for new dentists:

1. You will be busy which will build your speed as a new dentist. NO ONE leaves dental school with great speed, I don't care where you went. Corporate will throw you into the real world real quick and humble you.

2. Corp is your chance to mess up. Now obviously you don't want to mess up but as a new dentist you will make mistakes FOR SURE. Why not make those mistakes at a corp and let the corp get a bad name rather than having the reputation of your practice on the line. Corp is not a license to be careless but there is less pressure when you make mistakes.

3. You don't know how to run business likely. Spend some time in a corp to get an understanding of how to run a business, ask questions to office staff, spend time investing in interacting with your assistants and learning how to take care of orders and miscellaneous things without having to constantly worry about overhead.

4. Build up your communication and social skills. Lets face it, most dentists got to where they are because they are smart not because they are the most social people. Add in some pressure of selling dentistry and its easy to come off awkward and weird to patients at first. Practice at a corp instead of rubbing people the wrong way at your own practice only to lose that patient forever.

4. In a corporate setting generally you are not the only dentist present. I'd rather get stuck in a situation and ask for help from a coworker with more experience that might know how to help me out than try to tackle it on my own and have to refer out. This especially helpful with extractions and it not only sucks to have to refer out things you want to try but it sucks even more and is embarrassing when you try and fail miserably and have to refer out after starting.


There is so much more I could say but I'll leave it there for now and add as you guys ask questions.


EDIT: This post is not intended to convince anyone that corporate dentistry is the future and that everyone should be a corporate dentist and that it is the greatest thing to happen to dentistry but rather shed some light on a topic that many have already made up their minds on without any research. I am not an expert and do not claim to be one.

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[Stanelz]

@2TH MVR feel free to add anything of note having gone through both im sure you have much more things to say that I have no idea about

 

[schmoob]

Now that I have click baited you into this post I just wanted to share my experience with corporate dentistry from a corporate dentistry assistant for the last year and a half since it has been painted in such a negative light on this forum.

Take my thoughts lightly as I am an assistant and cannot speak for doctors but I work in an office where the doctors have become like family to me and share EVERYTHING with me as far as running the practice, finances, staff issues, etc.

Here are some common misconceptions:

1. Corporate dentistry makes you lose complete control

There are two forms of corporate dentistry one type (Option 1) is where you are a pog in the system. You are paid by the day and you make a set amount of money per day with potential bonuses. The second type (Option 2) is something like comfort dental in which you buy into the practice similar to buying a mcdonalds or subway franchise. You own this practice, do all of the hiring, ordering, etc but the upside over private practice is that you are part of a larger "community" so when you order supplies it is cheaper, when you send labs its cheaper, when you need help you can ask other members of the community in a sense.

Why is this advantageous? Option one gives you no responsibility other than the work you put out, You are not responsible for ordering or hiring or anything of that nature, you come to work and you get paid just like any other job. Options two gives you the private practice feel with cheaper overhead and free publicity.

Why is this disadvantageous? You are never fully in control. Option 1 you have no control over anything. Option two you do not control pricing and due to pressure from the bosses you cannot have super fancy equipment and pay your employees top dollar to keep them around leading to high turn over rate. A lot of employees find this as an avenue to start their career as an RDA or front office to gain experience and then move on.

2. Corporate dentists do not make as much as private owners

This is not necessarily true and I want to be careful how I answer this misconception without disclosing private information that I have received. Option one you are paid like an employee a set amount and you may receive a bit more due to experience and what you produce but you are basically locked in for the most part but if you don't want to deal with anything outside of normal hours then its still a great option. Option 2 you can make as much as you can produce because you own the practice. Google the average dentist salary, go ahead, do it. Comfort dental doctors (option 2 type) make way way more than that. How do I know this? don't ask you'll have to take my word for it and know that I would not make a post like this if I didn't know that information.

Advantages: Option 1 you worry about nothing and make more than the average person still. Option 2 you control how much you want to make based on how hard you wanna work with usually a never ending supply of new patients due to promotions given to the public by your corporate bosses.

Disadvantages: You don't get to set prices unless its a lower price.

3. The scheduling sucks

This is partly true. Corporate office tend to be open M-Sat for extended hours but typically are not working all day. I can't speak for option one here but with my office we are open Mon-Fri 7:30am-7:30pm and Sat 7:30AM-1:30PM. The doctors and staff typically work M-F for 6 hours and around 2 Saturdays a month which sounds terrible but its really not that bad since you are only working 6-7 hours at a time.


4. Corporate dentistry will give the community bad service due to high volume and the product is not as good

"There's more than one way to skin a cat" some people are very particular about how their fillings look and about how long they have to wait. These people are willing to pay the upgrade fee to go private practice. Generally about 50% of people (Statistically) just care about pricing and proximity. I have never seen my bosses do anything unethical. Are their fillings textbook beautiful? no but their patients don't care when they are half the price of private practice. Customers at a corp know what they are signing up for generally and usually no one is disappointed because the doctor will solve their problem for a low cost.

Why is this advantageous? As a corp dentist you are expected to do ethical dentistry but you are not expected to create the most beautiful products. That means you don't have to sit there with a shaping instrument for 20 minutes per filling. Generally just bulk fill, contour the top slightly, check the bite, and move on.

Why is this disadvantageous? You are DEFINITELY busy..well only if you want to make money. You can deny patients if you want or refer them out. You will not have time to sit around and twittle your thumbs like some practice owners but you will constantly be getting better with every patient which is key when you first start as a new dentist. In a corp setting you will absolutely have more patient flow so it will be busier but you will make less per patient.

5. Corporate dentistry does not offer you the ability to grown clinically

This is false but can vary depending on your specific corp. I have one boss that does bread and butter dentistry and he is comfortable with that. I have another boss that does everything from bread and butter to implants, bone grafts, alveoplasty, sinus lifts, lateral sinus lifts, full bony extractions w/comp, veneers, you name it he does it.

6. You can't have a relationship with you patients

At a corp there is no one breathing down your throat telling you to keep going and going. You can pause and build relationship with your patients especially in option 2. In options 2 you get to run the practice as if it is your own so you will always see the same patients and get to build relationship with them

7. You have to pick one or the other

When you start your own practice, it does not necessarily mean you cant work corp. You can do both to supplement your income while you are in the building phase of your practice.


A few really great things about corporate dentistry for new dentists:

1. You will be busy which will build your speed as a new dentist. NO ONE leaves dental school with great speed, I don't care where you went. Corporate will throw you into the real world real quick and humble you.

2. Corp is your chance to mess up. Now obviously you don't want to mess up but as a new dentist you will make mistakes FOR SURE. Why not make those mistakes at a corp and let the corp get a bad name rather than having the reputation of your practice on the line. Corp is not a license to be careless but there is less pressure when you make mistakes.

3. You don't know how to run business likely. Spend some time in a corp to get an understanding of how to run a business, ask questions to office staff, spend time investing in interacting with your assistants and learning how to take care of orders and miscellaneous things without having to constantly worry about overhead.

4. Build up your communication and social skills. Lets face it, most dentists got to where they are because they are smart not because they are the most social people. Add in some pressure of selling dentistry and its easy to come off awkward and weird to patients at first. Practice at a corp instead of rubbing people the wrong way at your own practice only to lose that patient forever.

4. In a corporate setting generally you are not the only dentist present. I'd rather get stuck in a situation and ask for help from a coworker with more experience that might know how to help me out than try to tackle it on my own and have to refer out. This especially helpful with extractions and it not only sucks to have to refer out things you want to try but it sucks even more and is embarrassing when you try and fail miserably and have to refer out after starting.


There is so much more I could say but I'll leave it there for now and add as you guys ask questions.

Great post!

 

[DKB15]

I was a dental assistant for Aspen and everything you have said is 100% TRUE.
I had an OM that screamed produce produce produce!
A patient would come in for a free screening and leave with a SRP done, 3 fillings, 2 extractions on an already busy schedule the same day.

 

[2TH MVR]

It takes a rare person to perform the same type of quality dentistry regardless of how you are being remunerated financially. I'm guilty myself. Many years ago .... my ortho practice was 90% FFS and 10% managed care plans. I was paid full boat for my FFS patients and a lesser amount for the PPO/HMO patients. I always seemed to work harder on my FFS patients. They paid me more and I felt that they deserved the best quality ortho care I could deliver. FFS patients were the patients I wanted in my practice .... therefore you worked harder (better quality) to impress both the patient and the referring GP.

Now Corp dentistry. As OP mentioned bravely. The dental work is adequate, but not perfect given the lesser time to perform the procedure and the lesser fee. The problem here as I see it ..... is that if all you do is "adequate" treatments .... over time .... your definition of "adequate" will likely encompass lesser and lesser ideal outcomes. Small open margin, overhangs, lack of interprox contact, etc. etc. As a GP you are rewarded for speed and the number of restorations you can put out. In most situations speed does not equate to quality. That's reality.

The other issue I see is if the Corps are all about "adequate" dentistry ..... then why don't they advertise that way? Of course they don't. They lead the public to believe that they offer the same quality treatment you find in "most" private offices at affordable prices. And lets be real. There are just as many private practices that perform less than ideal dentistry. Probably more.

I work Corp as an Orthodontist. Previously I practiced privately for the last 26 years. I needed a change. I wanted to slow down and work PT. My ego prevents me from working for another Ortho, Pedo, or GP. Therefore I chose the Corps. I consider myself to be a better than average ortho. I replaced an Ortho who had worked at that Corp every day since he graduated from Ortho. 8-9 years. I referred to him as an institutionalized corporate dentist/ortho. Not to disparage his treatment, but it was obvious to me that over time .... he lost interest in providing quality orthodontic treatment. As a life long Corp employee ... he had no one to critique his tx outcomes, so over time ... his definition of "adequate dentistry/ortho" became less and less.

Maybe I'm naive, but I'm working hard for my patients. I have pride in my work regardless if the patient or anyone else notices. My work defines me. Yes ... my environment is not conducive to quality outcomes, but I'm making it work.

Corp dentistry is a business that is 100% committed to run like a business. Private practice is less of a business. When business interferes with medical/dental care whether in Corp or Private .... this is where all the grey areas start.

 

[I-hate-alginate]

I was a dental assistant for Aspen and everything you have said is 100% TRUE.
I had an OM that screamed produce produce produce!
A patient would come in for a free screening and leave with a SRP done, 3 fillings, 2 extractions on an already busy schedule the same day.

Isn't that what many private practices do too? I see and hear plenty of stories. Unethical dentists! They are everywhere unfortunately.

 

[doc toothache]

Hook, line and sinker.
For an assistant, you appear to be privy to a great deal of personal/private information. Your post is very scripted and the corporate heads should certainly be proud of you. Although you have some erroneous information on option 1 regarding the salary basis, it has not worked very well for corporate dentistry due to the high turnover over rate of the practitioners. Option 2, was an ingenuous way to increase the retention rate of the practitioners. After forking over 200-300K into buying a piece of the pie, practitioners are less likely to leave. What some practitioners see in terms of tx planning/fees and costs for services rendered coming from corporate dentistry does not support the claim of lower costs to the patients, albeit the special offer of $39 for exam and x-rays (bitewings). Buying "cheaper" doesn't always translate into buying quality instruments/dental supplies nor does it suggest that the lab work is necessarily up to par. Whether or not corporate dentistry wipes out the private practices around the country remains to be seen. That will likely be a function of how demanding present and future patients are going to be.

 

[DKB15]

Isn't that what many private practices do too? I see and hear plenty of stories. Unethical dentists! They are everywhere unfortunately.

Yeah but giving that treatment to 10+ 20-25 years olds weekly is a bit too much and raises suspicions.

 

[MaxAnn]

Corporate dentistry really is a joke. The companies put any Walmart/Taco Bell manager they can find and put them in charge of the clinics or worse make them regional managers. All they know how to do is push numbers, snarl at doctors, and demean staff. Patients hardly ever see the same dentists because the turnover rate is 40-50% at those corporate "McDental" offices. Do yourself a favor and work somewhere else because you'll only be schooled in over/same day treatment and never grow clinically.

 

[2TH MVR]

I've worked both sides of the private/Corp office aisle. 26 years of private practice and now .....a little over a year in Corp. In private practice .... I felt the SAME way towards the Corps as most of you. I justified my poor feelings towards Corps mostly because of the young, inexperienced dentists (most of you) and older dentists (myself) who typically work at these Corps. Young dentists with no experience and/or speed who are mostly using the Corp job as a temporary means to pay their bills until something better comes along. And us older guys looking to work PT with little to no stress.

As for the revolving doors .... that's what you get when you hire young, slow, inexperienced dentists. For a young dentist ...a Corp job is mostly a TEMPORARY job until you find a real job or own your own practice. This attitude makes up for MOST of the dentist turnover in these Corp offices. Lets face it. As a young dentist .... your dream is practice ownership. But reality is that most of you will need a job. Corps are hiring. You're not overly happy to be at a Corp, but it's a job. Bottom line: your attitude at the Corp is less than ideal.

I work in a Corp office that sees low income patients. These patients have neglected their dental health. They walk in a Corp office and of course ... the diagnosis and TP is going to be involved. Mostly from the patient's dental neglect. This is no different from a private practice. Most private practices will milk that patient for everything they can treat BEFORE referring that patient to a specialist (if needed). I've seen so much dentistry that has reinforced a pre-existing malocclusion.

The real reason for hating Corp is economic reality. Corp practices are eroding profits from private practice.

 

[Stanelz]

I've worked both sides of the private/Corp office aisle. 26 years of private practice and now .....a little over a year in Corp. In private practice .... I felt the SAME way towards the Corps as most of you. I justified my poor feelings towards Corps mostly because of the young, inexperienced dentists (most of you) and older dentists (myself) who typically work at these Corps. Young dentists with no experience and/or speed who are mostly using the Corp job as a temporary means to pay their bills until something better comes along. And us older guys looking to work PT with little to no stress.

As for the revolving doors .... that's what you get when you hire young, slow, inexperienced dentists. For a young dentist ...a Corp job is mostly a TEMPORARY job until you find a real job or own your own practice. This attitude makes up for MOST of the dentist turnover in these Corp offices. Lets face it. As a young dentist .... your dream is practice ownership. But reality is that most of you will need a job. Corps are hiring. You're not overly happy to be at a Corp, but it's a job. Bottom line: your attitude at the Corp is less than ideal.

I work in a Corp office that sees low income patients. These patients have neglected their dental health. They walk in a Corp office and of course ... the diagnosis and TP is going to be involved. Mostly from the patient's dental neglect. This is no different from a private practice. Most private practices will milk that patient for everything they can treat BEFORE referring that patient to a specialist (if needed). I've seen so much dentistry that has reinforced a pre-existing malocclusion.

The real reason for hating Corp is economic reality. Corp practices are eroding profits from private practice.

Random question, what do you think of the future of ortho? How have you seen in change over the years with corps rising. To my understanding, this is not the first "corp scare" in recent decades.
Now that I have started dental school and see people "gunning" for top ten class spots to specialize in ortho I wonder if its even worth it. Personally I am interested in endo but I just wonder how ortho has changed from a seasoned orthodontists perspective so its the most gunned after speciality in dental school. Was it hard to specialize in ortho for you? Did you have to be top 10 of your class like they claim now?

 

[2TH MVR]

Random question, what do you think of the future of ortho? Ortho has been under attack from saturation, Corps, and technology allowing non-orthodontists to do orthodontics (rather poorly with no real understanding that moving teeth is not just "moving teeth". There will always be a need for orthodontists to treat complex cases (orthognathics, cuspid impactions, extractions, dentofacial orthopedics. Reality is that Ortho now is not as good economically as it once was. How have you seen in change over the years with corps rising. To my understanding, this is not the first "corp scare" in recent decades. When I 1st practiced ... there was little to no Corp practices. The Corp offices add to the saturation issues. I can assure you that the Corps are also worried about competition. The Corps are competing with other Corps.
Now that I have started dental school and see people "gunning" for top ten class spots to specialize in ortho I wonder if its even worth it. Personally I am interested in endo but I just wonder how ortho has changed from a seasoned orthodontists perspective so its the most gunned after speciality in dental school. Its a great profession. The procedures are not as stressful as most general procedures. Patients want what I can do for them and they can see the results directly. Pretty hard to "oversell" orthodontics in the Corp arena. People come in wanting straight teeth. I sleep very well with my ethics intact. I also make more money than my general dentist colleagues in Corp. I made substantially more money at the peak of my private practice career than most general dentists.Was it hard to specialize in ortho for you? I was lucky and fortunate to get accepted to a stipend paying residency. I was not the best or the brightest student, but I consider myself talented in the fine art of wire bending which seems lost on most younger orthos. Did you have to be top 10 of your class like they claim now? Yes. Again .... I was lucky. But I did enough.

 

[MaxAnn]

Corporate dentistry is real $hit $how. Most if not all of the corporate managers have little to no respect for docs largely b/c they weren't bright enough to get into dental school to begin with. It sounds childish but it's just as much a reality as corporate digging into the profits of private offices. Most of the dental work at corporate offices is of poor quality and everyone knows this.

 

[2TH MVR]

And yet .... Corp offices continue to grow every year. Why is that? Is it because the number of low dental iq patients continues to increase? Why do Corps flourish? Whose representative of this poor quality? Could it be those new grads with no vested interest in being there? Or is it the older dentists that have lost some of their abilities?

I'm not defending Corps. I despised them like everyone else. Just curious.

 

[Rumple]

Here we go again...... dental assistant, about to start D1, giving information about practicing dentistry in a corporate office. Basing such information on his time at ONE corporate office. Glad doctoothache graced us with some real world insight.

Get back to us when they slam you with 5-6 columns, and pay you 130k base. There’s a reason they have such a bad reputation.

 

[Stanelz]

Here we go again...... dental assistant, about to start D1, giving information about practicing dentistry in a corporate office. Basing such information on his time at ONE corporate office. Glad doctoothache graced us with some real world insight.

Get back to us when they slam you with 5-6 columns, and pay you 130k base. There’s a reason they have such a bad reputation.

thanks for the condescending response. I appreciate your opinion.

While it is true that you will be slammed, it does not mean you will only make a small income. My bosses, in my (small) sample size were each making well over 130k and they did not feel that they were being taken advantage of except on a few small things. Life is what you make of it, both in practice and outside

I am not saying that I will personally pursue corporate but just trying to create a discussion because there are many people who have more experience than me that could input great thoughts.

 

[queenki]

When you start your own practice, it does not necessarily mean you cant work corp. You can do both to supplement your income while you are in the building phase of your practice.

How do you do both?

 

[schmoob]

How do you do both?

Working corps to make up for lack of revenue while the practice grows.

 

[Pearl E. White]

Working corps to make up for lack of revenue while the practice grows.

Does working both allow for a full schedule? More than 40 hours per week?

 

[Stanelz]

Does working both allow for a full schedule? More than 40 hours per week?

typically you would work part at both a few days at each practice, of course you would be working weekends to supplement most likely

 

[DreamChaser01]

This is very very sad what this profession has come to. The crushing amount of student loan new dentists graduating with will take a very long time and living like a college student lifestyle to pay it off or be forgiven (if this program still going to exist in the next few years). Most new grads coming out of school end up working in corp dental offices run by office managers with GED or some bs business degree telling them "you are not producing enough compare to the last doc that were here a year ago, better start diagnosing". On top of lower reimbursement rate from insurance companies every year you are working more to make the same or less.

 

[Stanelz]

The way I see it, there will always be something to complain about or see negatively in any situation. Even if corporate dentistry wasnt a thing, we would be complaining about something else. Corporate dentistry is not the end of the world and I feel like most of our issues with it are because we feel entitled because we have worked so hard to become dentists and think everything should be handed to us. That may have been the case in the past but its time to wake up and realize that you are actually going to have to work harder to make your money. Is corp ideal? no but its likely hear to stay and to me it does not make dentistry a bag gig by any means.

I mean at the end of the day you can look at all the negatives or realizes that no matter happens to dentistry, you will always be living a comfortable life making well over 100K working 40-50 hours a week which is more than what 90% of the population can say.

Let me remind you guys that our MD/DO brethren who work 60-80 hours a week have it much worse than us, to them, our complaints about corporate dentistry are foolish.

 

[DreamChaser01]

90% of population also don't have $500k student loan w/ a 7% interest rate.

 

[Stanelz]

90% of population also don't have $500k student loan w/ a 7% interest rate.

100% have a choice

 

[ncide]

From a financial side, corporate dentistry is not a wise decision. Low pay, no tax benefits from owning a business, no equity building, and limited control over staff and workspace.

When the corporate regional managers come to give talks at your school, don't drink the Kool-aid.

 

[LFA20]

From a financial side, corporate dentistry is not a wise decision. Low pay, no tax benefits from owning a business, no equity building, and limited control over staff and workspace.

When the corporate regional managers come to give talks at your school, don't drink the Kool-aid.

You make more as an associate compared to corporate??

 

[Stanelz]

From a financial side, corporate dentistry is not a wise decision. Low pay, no tax benefits from owning a business, no equity building, and limited control over staff and workspace.

When the corporate regional managers come to give talks at your school, don't drink the Kool-aid.

idk man, theyre bringing us a lot of koolaid right now haha

 

[2TH MVR]

Look. No one is telling you YOU HAVE TO WORK FOR THE EVIL CORPS. It's just an option. For a new dentist .... not a bad temporary situation till you get on your feet. If you can find that ideal Associateship .... do that instead. Ownership is the goal if that is important to you. Some may find that the complexities of owning their own practice does not sit well in their lives. Then Associateships, Corps, public health, academics, etc etc are available.

You can't compare working at a Corp vs. owning your own business. Working at a Corp or any other job as an employee is what a vast majority of people do. They work as employees. ALL employees complain about their jobs. Don't want to complain about your job? Then be an owner and plan to deal with all your employees complaining about their jobs. Fun times. Been there. Done that. 🙂

Corps will keep growing whether you like it or not. Right or wrong. Spewing out how terrible they are isn't going to change the momentum they have. The current market (the every day patients) are the real driving force behind Corps. Corps wouldn't exist if there wasn't demand for their services.

btw: most of the patient complaints regarding Corps is their billing practices. Corps treat billing like all major business institutions. People will always have excuses for not paying their bills.

 

[ncide]

You make more as an associate compared to corporate??

General dentists with 10+ years of experience would make $120k at the corporation I worked at.

Damn right they don't have a fair salary. The general dentists owners near me average 300-400k according to the CPAs who help manage their finances.

You won't find that salary in the military. You won't find that salary for most people working for corporations. Don't sell yourself short.

You get many tax exemptions working as an employer with a business in the USA. Your payments into your practice builds equity that you can eventually sell for a healthy sum. You decide who works for you instead of having a manager doing monthly reviews on your work performance, or a having the navy tell you where to live.

Take control of your life. That's why you chose to be a dentist.

 

[LFA20]

General dentists with 10+ years of experience would make $120k at the corporation I worked at.

Damn right they don't have a fair salary. The general dentists owners near me average 300-400k according to the CPAs who help manage their finances.

You won't find that salary in the military. You won't find that salary for most people working for corporations. Don't sell yourself short.

You get many tax exemptions working as an employer with a business in the USA. Your payments into your practice builds equity that you can eventually sell for a healthy sum. You decide who works for you instead of having a manager doing monthly reviews on your work performance, or a having the navy tell you where to live.

Take control of your life. That's why you chose to be a dentist.

Uhm, I wasn't asking if an OWNER makes more than an associate/military dentist... Of course as an owner you will always make more, but it is not as easy as you think to get there NOWADAYS. You'll find out when you get out of school...

Also, I am not sure why any general dentists with 10+ years of experience would want to take $120k pay at a corp. Even my friends make more than that with 0 years of experience..

 

[753698]

Let me remind you guys that our MD/DO brethren who work 60-80 hours a week have it much worse than us, to them, our complaints about corporate dentistry are foolish.

Well then let me remind you that most of those MD/DO brethren who work 60-80 hours per week also take home more than 500K+ per year. I say this because most of the specialties working those hours are surgical, like ortho and neuro, and those specialties easily clear well over half a million a year. Don't believe me? Check out MGMA which lists physician salaries. The average for Ortho and Neuro are 600k+ and if you are in a rural area etc. you will easily clear $2MM+ a year.

How does that even compare to working 40-45 hours a week at corporate dental office and earning $150K, especially since for that same 150K you will be working crazy hard, overtreating, burning through tons of patients per day etc.

The only way that a dentist can compare to medicine is in private practice. In private practice in fact, you could work 35 hrs a week, treat less patients per day (and not overtreat) and still take home 250-300K. Lot less in office stress and much higher income for the price of managing your own business (which isn't even a bad thing).

Personally, I would rather be a private practice dentist than an employee physician. But if I had to choose between being an employee dentist and and employee physician working the same hours, I don't know how anyone in their right minds would choose dentistry over medicine, unless you have a fetish for teeth. I mean it's not even realistically comparable. Atleast as a physician in a hospital you don't have to worry about meeting quotas like a dentist will in a corp.

 

[2TH MVR]

Funny how Corp threads bring out the most emotion in people.
I've been on both sides of that fence (private practice and Corp). I also just had a conversation with my brother in law who is a Pain MD for a large privately owned group regarding this very topic.

1. Yes .... ownership in dentistry is the way to go. BUT. Simply being an OWNER does not automatically mean that you will be on easy street. It's been said over and over that you need to have some business acumen and the williness to work MORE than 40 hrs per week to succeed. In private practice (PP) .... I was the 1st one at the office and the last one to leave. YOU are responsible for EVERYTHING regardless if it was your fault or not. You will be writing checks for EVERYONE and you will be the LAST one to get a check. When business is good. Things are good. When things are bad .... YOUR check gets smaller. Every month .... you will have that ever increasing overhead monster to feed regardless how you did that month. For some .... they enjoy this challenge and thrive. Not so for others. I've seen many GP offices struggle and they never attained the wealth that I did. They lived what I would consider an average income life.

2. I know many GPs and Specialists that make more than 120K at a Corp. Same situation exists in the Corp. The "gunners" with the business attitude and gunner mentality will thrive in Corp and make more than the average dentist in private. I replaced a "seasoned" ortho at the Corp that I work for. He worked 6 days a week. His numbers were shocking. His take home was exceptional. His take home was no different than what I made owning two separate private practices. There are outliers in every industry. Same for dentists in Corp or Private.

3. Corps pushing for production? Guess what? The same occurs in the Private practices. That's how you pay your bills. Just imagine the new grad with large DS debt, home mortgage, credit card debt, financed private practice debt, overhead in the office, lease, rent, etc.etc. Trust me. You will be looking at EVERY new patient as a gold mine and potential revenue. You cannot escape that ever looming need to make money when you diagnose that new patient for procedures. How about staff bonuses to bring in more production. No different than Corp. Corp has alot of employees to pay.

4. My MD brother in law just told me that he is discouraging his kids into pursuiing medicine. Why? LIFESTYLE. He works ALL THE TIME. His group accepts medicaid and he told me that he essentially is doing the work for free. BUT .... the amount of paperwork due to the opioid epidemic has quadrupled. He is at the office 5 days a week seeing patients EVERY 15 minutes ALL day. He's an MD seeing patients like a factory and some of you are complaining about Dental Corp factories. In the past he would have to stay after work and spend 4-6 hours filling out all the forms and documenting. He finally hired a "scribe" who follows him all day and does all the patient documentation. He works in a large group practice as an Owner, but he is still considered an employee. He only gets a couple of weeks off a year. He's not complaining about the $$$$. It's the amount of time and the stress on the job. Guess what he is suggesting his kids pursue? Orthodontist. 🙂

New grad with plenty of energy? Great. Start or buy a practice. IN A RURAL AREA. In saturated areas ... the pie of new patients can only be split into so many pieces and the Corps will be fighting over those pieces. Eventually the big Corps will buy out or force out the little Corps. It's already happening.

 

[Wingie]

Dentistry is becoming more like the pharmacy industry:

New Aspen Dental Office Opens in Collaboration with Walgreens - News - aegisdentalnetwork.com

 

[Stanelz]

the amount of paperwork due to the opioid epidemic has quadrupled. He is at the office 5 days a week seeing patients EVERY 15 minutes ALL day. He's an MD seeing patients like a factory and some of you are complaining about Dental Corp factories. In the past he would have to stay after work and spend 4-6 hours filling out all the forms and documenting.

This is a huge very true point. The paper work is crazy in medicine, I actually used to be a scribe. The amount of paperwork and unsatisfying small busy tasks is enough to make you go crazy.

I will add this also. Even though my sample size is very small (maybe 20-30 physicians and around 10 dentists)
Almost every physician told me to pursue dentistry over medicine and that if they could do it over again they would have done something else.
EVERY dentist I have asked said they would choose their profession over again 1000X over

 

[Cthuluhoop]

This is a huge very true point. The paper work is crazy in medicine, I actually used to be a scribe. The amount of paperwork and unsatisfying small busy tasks is enough to make you go crazy.

I will add this also. Even though my sample size is very small (maybe 20-30 physicians and around 10 dentists)
Almost every physician told me to pursue dentistry over medicine and that if they could do it over again they would have done something else.
EVERY dentist I have asked said they would choose their profession over again 1000X over

That is true for me as well, every dentist i spoke to said they would pursue dentistry again. However, most made it clear they wouldn’t at the current price of most dental schools. So I don’t think that’s a fair statement to make

 

[738177]

That is true for me as well, every dentist i spoke to said they would pursue dentistry again. However, most made it clear they wouldn’t at the current price of most dental schools. So I don’t think that’s a fair statement to make

If you're going to a 400k-500k+ dental school, financially speaking, your life would be similar to a retail optometrist or a pharmacist. That's something to think about. The ROI basically works out to be the same.

 

[Stanelz]

That is true for me as well, every dentist i spoke to said they would pursue dentistry again. However, most made it clear they wouldn’t at the current price of most dental schools. So I don’t think that’s a fair statement to make

Hows it not a fair statement to make. I never said it was true for ever dentist just like your statement isnt. Just an observation

 

[Mr. Thirsty]

There is a place for corporate dentistry because of the massive amount of debt that most students are taking on now. The truth is that there are not many other options for a new grad. You can associate with an owner, but only so many owners are hiring associates in locations that new grads want to move too. There are also retired doctors that want to still work part time, and corporate provides that flexibility for them. Unfortunately at this point corporate dentistry is needed, and that need has been created mostly by the profession itself.

When I was in dental school many of my colleagues drank the koolaid. Many of my classmates said that they have no desire to own a practice. They don't want to deal with the headaches of practice ownership. Perhaps their perspective will change once they have been in the corporate mill long enough.

If corporate dentistry isn't your cup of tea, then you should just do your time and get out. Start your own practice in a rural area. Keep your overhead low and start a 150-200K practice. Make sure you have room to expand when needed. Work for corporate part time and your own practice part time until it grows. Yes, you will have to work some Saturdays 🙂.

 

[753698]

There is a place for corporate dentistry because of the massive amount of debt that most students are taking on now. The truth is that there are not many other options for a new grad. You can associate with an owner, but only so many owners are hiring associates in locations that new grads want to move too. There are also retired doctors that want to still work part time, and corporate provides that flexibility for them. Unfortunately at this point corporate dentistry is needed, and that need has been created mostly by the profession itself.

When I was in dental school many of my colleagues drank the koolaid. Many of my classmates said that they have no desire to own a practice. They don't want to deal with the headaches of practice ownership. Perhaps their perspective will change once they have been in the corporate mill long enough.

If corporate dentistry isn't your cup of tea, then you should just do your time and get out. Start your own practice in a rural area. Keep your overhead low and start a 150-200K practice. Make sure you have room to expand when needed. Work for corporate part time and your own practice part time until it grows. Yes, you will have to work some Saturdays 🙂.

I agree, corporate dentistry is needed. But I hope it doesn't expand and turn dentistry into Walmart dentistry. I'm fine with corporate dentistry taking a 20-30% market share, but if it encompasses over 80% then I believe the whole dental profession will be severely devalued. Why? Because it seems to be a race to the bottom.

Lowering prices constantly, which devalues the procedures dentists perform.

Quality of care will obviously be lower if you are burning through 25+ patients per day as opposed to a more modest 10 patients a day in private practice where you can give each patient a great experience.

And lets be honest with ourselves, do you really think those big corporate CEO's give a crap about the lowly dentist working for them? All they care about is hoarding money. Do these private equity groups care about how great a filling is, or how well a crown fits? No they only care about the exorbitant amounts of money in their pockets.

They always told us go to school so you don't end up a burger flipper, but a dentist in this scenario is just a glorified burger flipper, who does the hard labor so the guys up top can benefit.

I'm not a dentist, but I can see where this profession is headed. The more support these corporate groups get, the bigger they get. And the bigger they get the stronger they get and they have much more power within the economy. They can quite literally eradicate private practice dentistry with their power.

Did you really spend 8 tough years becoming a dentist so you could make money for your corporate boss and not give the quality of care you envisioned giving when you shadowed the established private practice dentist in your undergrad years? I feel most people went into or are going into the dental profession so that they can make an impact in their community, build their legacy (their practice), and retire knowing they built something great which serviced the community for 30+ years, rather than knowing their entire legacy was working at a corporate mill for 30+ years.

 

[2TH MVR]

Again ... I've been on both sides of this argument. Everything is going Corporate. Medicine is already there. Rural areas are the least impacted areas for private practice dentistry. But even those areas are not immune to Corporate in the long run.
You bring up the low prices and poor quality of Corp. Why not bring up Invisalign? It's Corporate. It allows tons of patients to be treated at a relatively low price (Direct Smile Club, et al). Everyone whether "qualified" or not is "treating" their patients with aligners. Dentists on every block are embracing invisalign.

I can tell you that the quality of your treatment will depend on YOU. Yes .. you have to be fast. But as many have said .... just being fast does not mean poor quality. My treatment in the Corps is NO DIFFERENT than when I practiced privately. My ideals are still the same.

I brought this up before. Can't just place blame on the BIG CORPS. Look at all the smaller private practices running their practices like small Corps. GP and pedo offices with visiting specialists. Sounds like a Corp scenario to me. Just a smaller version. You think these visiting, employed specialists or GPs at these smaller group practices have the SAME vested interests as compared to their OWN private practice? Hell no. It's just a job ..... like a Corp job.

Do you buy stocks? Investments? If so .... you are investing in GROWING CORPORATE AMERICA. Some would say that the younger generation is driving this Corp movement due to the need for on-line EVERYTHING.

Large numbers of patients going through Corp, low fees? Look at the successful, outlier dentists/specialists on this board. Pretty sure they see more than 10 patients a day. High producing practices see a large number of patients. Yes ... there are some niche small practices that do well on low patient numbers, but those are pretty rare.

Again. Medicine is already there. MDs are mostly employees. Not all, but most. Even the MDs that belong to privately held large group practices are essentially employees within their group.

I'm not pro Corp. I despised them just like everyone else when I was in private practice. But reality is the Corps are here to stay. Your energy would be better served if you developed a strategy to work WITH Corp (i.e @charlestweed et al) or practice where no one wants to practice (rural).

 

[753698]

Again ... I've been on both sides of this argument. Everything is going Corporate. Medicine is already there. Rural areas are the least impacted areas for private practice dentistry. But even those areas are not immune to Corporate in the long run.
You bring up the low prices and poor quality of Corp. Why not bring up Invisalign? It's Corporate. It allows tons of patients to be treated at a relatively low price (Direct Smile Club, et al). Everyone whether "qualified" or not is "treating" their patients with aligners. Dentists on every block are embracing invisalign.

I can tell you that the quality of your treatment will depend on YOU. Yes .. you have to be fast. But as many have said .... just being fast does not mean poor quality. My treatment in the Corps is NO DIFFERENT than when I practiced privately. My ideals are still the same.

I brought this up before. Can't just place blame on the BIG CORPS. Look at all the smaller private practices running their practices like small Corps. GP and pedo offices with visiting specialists. Sounds like a Corp scenario to me. Just a smaller version. You think these visiting, employed specialists or GPs at these smaller group practices have the SAME vested interests as compared to their OWN private practice? Hell no. It's just a job ..... like a Corp job.

Do you buy stocks? Investments? If so .... you are investing in GROWING CORPORATE AMERICA. Some would say that the younger generation is driving this Corp movement due to the need for on-line EVERYTHING.

Large numbers of patients going through Corp, low fees? Look at the successful, outlier dentists/specialists on this board. Pretty sure they see more than 10 patients a day. High producing practices see a large number of patients. Yes ... there are some niche small practices that do well on low patient numbers, but those are pretty rare.

Again. Medicine is already there. MDs are mostly employees. Not all, but most. Even the MDs that belong to privately held large group practices are essentially employees within their group.

I'm not pro Corp. I despised them just like everyone else when I was in private practice. But reality is the Corps are here to stay. Your energy would be better served if you developed a strategy to work WITH Corp (i.e @charlestweed et al) or practice where no one wants to practice (rural).

But that's what's bad isn't it. Dentistry is headed towards medicine, and that's not a good thing that's a bad thing. All the benefits dentistry had over medicine will be gone.
Autonomy- gone
Being an employer instead of an employee- gone
Building your own practice- gone
Freedom of schedule- gone
Practicing the way you want to practice- gone

Dentistry is just poor mans medicine at this point.
Realistically, if dentistry went corporate what advantage does it have over medicine?

And yes I agree everything in America is going corporate/has already gone corporate. But that doesn't mean we have to let dentistry go the same route. We as dentists control our own destiny. We can refuse to work at corporate, to stop them from growing.

I mean what's in it for the dentist in a corporate scenario, other than not having to manage a practice (which isn't even a bad thing imo)
Plus how bad will it feel to be employed by that business major who didn't have to struggle through school like us dentists did. All we are doing is making money for them, no? Just think about it, MVR. Your boss didn't have to go through the struggle you did to become an orthodontist, yet he is enjoying taking a chunk from your production, probably working less than you do too, and doing less meaningful work.

It's just principle for me, I don't want to be an employee making profits for someone who never worked as hard as I did in my life. That's one of the reasons I was drawn towards dentistry in the first place. The thing about most corporate jobs is that you are always paid less than what you are worth, so that the people at top can make huge financial gains. If corporate CEO's started paying their employees fair wages then they wouldn't have nearly as much money in their own pockets. Even as a dentist in corporate, surely you will be producing way way way more than they will be paying you, so that majority of that money is pocketed by the guys at the top. I can't stand that structure personally.

Also I think your experience is different MVR since you are an orthodontist, and you probably don't have to meet any drill and fill/crown quotas. I've read so many bad stories of GP's in corporate who just don't enjoy their experience there.

And I know for many corporate is sometimes necessary because there aren't always other jobs and buying a practice is difficult. But also maybe dentists need to stick together and make sacrifices to make sure our profession doesn't get taken over by big corporate giants.

 

[2TH MVR]

Look. I'll be the 1st to admit that dentistry would be better without Corps. But you make no reference regarding the smaller Corps I mentioned. These individuals are doing the same thing as the larger Corps, but on a smaller scale. Does that help dentistry? I mean ... let's be honest here. Those small practices hiring specialists are just trying to increase their revenue ... not help their patients. It's a business decision. It's puts money into their pockets. So ... in this dream world .... lets eliminate all the big CORPS and the smaller private GP and Pedo offices that hire outside specialists as a revenue producer.

Yes ... we all went into dentistry for the autonomy. I bought into a partnership and eventually bought the entire practice. I then started 3 other practices from scratch. Bought a building to house one of the practices. I'm well aware of the business aspects of starting and running a successful ortho practice. I've enjoyed my life immensely until the economics of practicing in a SATURATED urban area became more difficult with more headaches. In the early 90's ... the Phx area was not saturated. In my 50's I decided it was time for a change. Not interested in teaching. Not interested in working for another dentist. Ideally I would have purchased or started a small ortho practice in a RURAL area with no Corp stuff. I would have enjoyed that. Butttttttt. My lovely wife likes living in N. Scottsdale. I do to. Hard to give up fine dining, all the professional sports teams, golf, nice year round weather, etc. etc. So .... sold the practices and got a Corp job. Do I like it? Yes and no. Nothing is perfect. The worst part is not being able to hire the right team members.

It's give and take. You're young and full of energy. You want the ideal private dental practice. Your chances of being successful will be better if you go rural. If you decide to go into a saturated area .... it will be much more difficult due to all the competition. Remember? The patient pie can only be divided so many times.

So ... the dream of owning your own practice is alive and well. Just be smart. Graduate with less debt. Go to a nice rural area and enjoy the awesome profession that dentistry is. Stay away from the **** show in the saturated areas.

 

[Cthuluhoop]

But that doesn't mean we have to let dentistry go the same route. We as dentists control our own destiny. We can refuse to work at corporate, to stop them from growing.

Unfortunately, corporate is necessary most of the time these days. Many of us future dentists don't have a choice but to work for a corporate office for X amount of years after graduation depending on what school you went to and what your loans are. You won't be getting a practice loan with $500k in student loans until after a few of years of solid production under your belt.

So I wouldn't blame dentists for going corporate, blame the dental schools that force our hand with insane tuition increases

 

[charlestweed]

And yet .... Corp offices continue to grow every year. Why is that? Is it because the number of low dental iq patients continues to increase? Why do Corps flourish? Whose representative of this poor quality? Could it be those new grads with no vested interest in being there? Or is it the older dentists that have lost some of their abilities?

I'm not defending Corps. I despised them like everyone else. Just curious.

Patients seek treatments at corp offices because don’t have any choice. Most private dental offices don’t accept their HMO plans and medicaid. Yesterday at a corp, I saw a young kid, whose older brother had ortho tx at a private ortho office. The mom brought this kid to see me at the corp because she switched to HMO and her older son’s private orthodontist office doesn’t accept HMO.

Another reason is patients want conveniences. Corp offices attract more patients because they have extended office hours and they are also opened on Saturdays. Many patients prefer the weendend appointments and don’t mind the long wait time because they don’t want to miss work/school. If patients need to see a specialist (endo, ortho, perio, or OS), they don’t have to drive to another office because the corp offices hire in-house specialists.

My mom chooses CVS pharmacy over a private pharmacy store because CVS has late and weekend hours and they also charge her lower fees…..ie zero copay for her Lipitor.

 

[charlestweed]

General dentists with 10+ years of experience would make $120k at the corporation I worked at.

Damn right they don't have a fair salary. The general dentists owners near me average 300-400k according to the CPAs who help manage their finances.

You won't find that salary in the military. You won't find that salary for most people working for corporations. Don't sell yourself short.

You get many tax exemptions working as an employer with a business in the USA. Your payments into your practice builds equity that you can eventually sell for a healthy sum. You decide who works for you instead of having a manager doing monthly reviews on your work performance, or a having the navy tell you where to live.

Take control of your life. That's why you chose to be a dentist.

These dentists are content with this low salary because they know themselves.....they have been out for 10+ years and still don’t have enough confidence in themselves to either ask for a raise or to start their own offices. If they were good, the corp would have already promoted them to a managing dentist position. They work at corp offices probably because private office owners don't want them either. Not all dentists are created equal. Some dentists have better clinical and business skills than others.

 

[charlestweed]

Unfortunately, corporate is necessary most of the time these days. Many of us future dentists don't have a choice but to work for a corporate office for X amount of years after graduation depending on what school you went to and what your loans are. You won't be getting a practice loan with $500k in student loans until after a few of years of solid production under your belt.

So I wouldn't blame dentists for going corporate, blame the dental schools that force our hand with insane tuition increases

The reason why many new grads get jobs at the corps is these jobs are readily available everywhere. Unlike private practice owners, corp offices welcome new grads and don’t require work experience. Another reason is corp offices offer more work days (5-6 days/week) and more patients to keep their associate dentists busy. Some private practices don’t have enough patients and only hire part time associate dentists. And the third reason is some corp offices offer benefits such as 401k, malpractice insurance and CE classes etc.

I’d rather work with a corp’s boss, who has a HS diploma, than with a boss, who is an orthodontist and has different treatment philosophy/style than mine. Working at the corp office, I have full autonomy in treatment decisions. I diagnose and treatment plan all cases and not have to consult with any orthodontist boss above me.

 

[753698]

Look. I'll be the 1st to admit that dentistry would be better without Corps. But you make no reference regarding the smaller Corps I mentioned. These individuals are doing the same thing as the larger Corps, but on a smaller scale. Does that help dentistry? I mean ... let's be honest here. Those small practices hiring specialists are just trying to increase their revenue ... not help their patients. It's a business decision. It's puts money into their pockets. So ... in this dream world .... lets eliminate all the big CORPS and the smaller private GP and Pedo offices that hire outside specialists as a revenue producer.

Yes ... we all went into dentistry for the autonomy. I bought into a partnership and eventually bought the entire practice. I then started 3 other practices from scratch. Bought a building to house one of the practices. I'm well aware of the business aspects of starting and running a successful ortho practice. I've enjoyed my life immensely until the economics of practicing in a SATURATED urban area became more difficult with more headaches. In the early 90's ... the Phx area was not saturated. In my 50's I decided it was time for a change. Not interested in teaching. Not interested in working for another dentist. Ideally I would have purchased or started a small ortho practice in a RURAL area with no Corp stuff. I would have enjoyed that. Butttttttt. My lovely wife likes living in N. Scottsdale. I do to. Hard to give up fine dining, all the professional sports teams, golf, nice year round weather, etc. etc. So .... sold the practices and got a Corp job. Do I like it? Yes and no. Nothing is perfect. The worst part is not being able to hire the right team members.

It's give and take. You're young and full of energy. You want the ideal private dental practice. Your chances of being successful will be better if you go rural. If you decide to go into a saturated area .... it will be much more difficult due to all the competition. Remember? The patient pie can only be divided so many times.

So ... the dream of owning your own practice is alive and well. Just be smart. Graduate with less debt. Go to a nice rural area and enjoy the awesome profession that dentistry is. Stay away from the **** show in the saturated areas.

I thought GP's hired specialists in office to make it easier on their patients, so they could get their procedures in house. Maybe I'm just naive haha.

Also I see your point about why you chose to work in corporate. Could you go into more detail about what happened with the saturation? Did more ortho clinics open near you and start stealing your patients, lowering your referral base etc., yet overhead stayed the same?

And do you think this oversaturation problem will fix itself? By that I mean with the whole student loan bubble thing will there be less dentists graduating in the future?

 

[753698]

Unfortunately, corporate is necessary most of the time these days. Many of us future dentists don't have a choice but to work for a corporate office for X amount of years after graduation depending on what school you went to and what your loans are. You won't be getting a practice loan with $500k in student loans until after a few of years of solid production under your belt.

So I wouldn't blame dentists for going corporate, blame the dental schools that force our hand with insane tuition increases

Yeah I understand, even I might have to work corporate for a year or two to get really high production totals to apply for a large practice loan. It seems as an associate at a private practice it is really difficult to have high production totals since the main dentist probably takes all the $ cases.

 

[753698]

Patients seek treatments at corp offices because don’t have any choice. Most private dental offices don’t accept their HMO plans and medicaid. Yesterday at a corp, I saw a young kid, whose older brother had ortho tx at a private ortho office. The mom brought this kid to see me at the corp because she switched to HMO and her older son’s private orthodontist office doesn’t accept HMO.

Another reason is patients want conveniences. Corp offices attract more patients because they have extended office hours and they are also opened on Saturdays. Many patients prefer the weendend appointments and don’t mind the long wait time because they don’t want to miss work/school. If patients need to see a specialist (endo, ortho, perio, or OS), they don’t have to drive to another office because the corp offices hire in-house specialists.

My mom chooses CVS pharmacy over a private pharmacy store because CVS has late and weekend hours and they also charge her lower fees…..ie zero copay for her Lipitor.

Hmm, could this convenience issue be solved by expanding a solo practice to a small group practice, by rotating in specialists as MVR had mentioned above, and also having associates work those extended hours/Saturdays when you are not in the office? Maybe give the associate a bonus for working Saturdays since most people won't want to I'm guessing.

 

[753698]

I’d rather work with a corp’s boss, who has a HS diploma, than with a boss, who is an orthodontist and has different treatment philosophy/style than mine. Working at the corp office, I have full autonomy in treatment decisions. I diagnose and treatment plan all cases and not have to consult with any orthodontist boss above me.

Wouldn't you rather own your own practice than work for a corp boss with a HS diploma. This goes back to that saying that goes like "The people who got straight C's in college employ the people who got straight A's in college"
Seems unfair doesn't it?

I mean I see your point about not wanting to work for another orthodontist, that makes sense, but why would you want to work for a dude using private equity investments to hoard money?

Even if I made less money and had more headaches, I would rather work for myself just based on principle.