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Cost-benefit analysis: Dentistry from here on out is Bust
Started by MR1990
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***This does not represent any of my views personally or politically.***
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM
Thought it might be relevant to your post.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A75KERKwEQM
Thought it might be relevant to your post.
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lol this guy...
I can't decide if it's confidence or arrogance, but I like it.
I worry about this off and on, but if you think about it, we'll probably all be ok. If you want respect, job security and $$$, go with medicine... If you want an easy job, to start earning 3 years earlier, and like the idea of doing technical work, go with dentistry. No need to fret - Just dodge the debt baby! 👍
But for the more ambitious dental student.... Someone on here mentioned that those of us that charted a low-debt path might just be able to take advantage of the guys 300K+ in the hole - maybe the midlevels too. I mean, couldn't we pretty easily set up medicaid mills too? Then force the high-debt dentists and midlevels to work on our medicaid patients fast and hard? Then the entrepreneurial dentist could sit back and do the interesting (and FFS) cases while taking 80% of Dr. Roseman/LECOM/USC's collections. And because the indebted guy IS licensed, you could even extend work hours and days without actually having to stay at the office. Just schedule the all crap cases in the late afternoon and then leave.
I'm taking the more optimistic outlook now. There will be some winners some losers in dentistry now - so be one of the winners.
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My school is 50K + with room and board, I lived on campus my first 3 years and I studied abroad last summer in Spain. I have a 16k per year academic scholarship, but no other financial aid, not even stafford loans. Therefore all parent plus loans, for which I am completely responsible. I make enough money to pay for my rent, but haven't had enough to start paying off my loans..all that adds up to 140K for 4 years.
No offense, but i don't see how ANY undergraduate degree would ever be worth that amount of money, regardless of institution.
It's called being dumb.
Hahaha. Too funny. Too funny. May I borrow that soap box of yours? I promise to return it promptly to the Feminist Majority Foundation, right after my wife makes me a sandwich on it.
Or not. Our flagship state school comes out to a little more than 25K a year after room and board. All financial aid is granted on a need-based and not merit-based basis, so unless your family is in dire need of federal and state contribution, costs will come to just about 100K after four years without factoring in loan interest. The Ivy Leagues clock in at around 50K per year without aid, the same as Berkeley or UCLA for out-of-state students. 140K is not an unreasonable figure at all in today's times, considering all things.
Wow 140k for an undergrad degree is reasonable? I'm glad I do not know you lol. That's the same as saying a 90K Honda civic is reasonable.
140k for a bachelors is some heavy stuff, unless your parents are footing the bill.
But no one in their right minds would buy a 90K Honda Civic. There are plenty of students who consistently pay that amount or more every year for an undergraduate education. Costs are ballooning and they are out of control. It is a difficult burden to bear but it is the reality of the situation. We are not discussing private liberal arts colleges or OOS institutions - like I said, our flagship state school estimates 100K at the end of four years, and state schools are amongst the most frugal options out there. Of my high school friends, who all chose very diverse institutions, I don't know a single one who is getting away with less than that number unless their family's income meets the requirements for need-based aid, in which case they are attending for less or even for free.
wow my 4 years was 53K including living expenses and was paid for in cash. You have been robbed.
I feel like we are attending university in two different centuries. Either that, or you went to community college or lived at home, or you received financial aid, or were fortunate enough to live in a state where higher education is heavily subsidized by taxpayer money. If that is the case, then congratulations, I think you are very lucky, but I think you should realize that your situation may not be the norm. Not a single public school in my state has an estimated expense of less than 23K/year after room and board. If I have indeed been robbed, then this theft must be nearly pandemic.
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i think you should realize your situation is not the norm. University of Wisconsin is not a community college FYI lol.
Well, I'll assume you're talking about the flagship Wisconsin (so Madison, then), in which case your school website is still giving me 23K/year as an estimated cost. So I'm still under the impression that a student at your school who does not qualify for merit-based or need-based aid will pay around that amount. Which was... basically the entire tenet of my stance, that it isn't uncommon for undergraduate educations to be costly too. So I'm not even sure if we're arguing about the same thing anymore.
P.S. And it would have been entirely feasible for you to attend a community college for part of your education before transferring. That comment was not a knock on your school.
I can understand why you might think that 140k for an undergraduate is overpriced, as you paid 53k for your entire schooling, but I think that you are overreacting and there is no reason to be condescending.
I did not have the fortune of being able to pay for my schooling in cash, or living in a state where the public schools are halfway decent. University of Wisconsin at Madison is a great school and you are fortunate to have that as an option. Personally, it was very important for me to receive an education at a small school where I would be able to participate in class and have a relationship with my professors; this wouldn't have been possible at my state schools. I have not had a class with more than 40 students and my average class size is about 25.
IMO, calling someone stupid because of what they paid for school is a very reductionist statement. I think you should try to consider someone's circumstances before passing judgement. I am glad that you could fund your education for 53k, but in my circumstances I would have paid over 100k for a state school in which I would have been in lecture halls with over 300 students. I would choose my school all over again if I had the chance.
I'm not trying to defame you or anything, but certain state universities are reckless. In california, (the most recklessly financial state in the Union) the students have to pay 100K to attend their public university. It is sad.
That is still ridiculous and irresponsible to take all that out in loans...
Biggest problem is room and board!! Most of my state universities cost around 10K of tuition alone per year.
I will graduate with very little debt.... The biggest secret to reducing debt in undergrad is working and obtaining scholarships. I worked 30-40 hours every week of my undergrad career, which usually netted me in the ball park of 20-30K per year. That covered all of my living expenses, plus a little tuition. Then my work usually had tuition reimbursement of sorts in the arena of 2-4K per year, so that chipped away a little more. Then my junior and senior year i applied to every scholarship i could find and that got me another 5K a year.
Paying over a 100K for an undergraduate degree is crazy, no matter how you slice the pie, but even more especially if its from a state university. Don't blame it on not qualifying for grants... Either get good grades and get scholarships or work as many hours as you possibly can. Preferably both!
sorry fellas i paid a bit over $8k for my bachelors undergrad. I also feel like my bachelors isnt worth anything either... I cant imagine what you guys feel like paying $50k and over. I mean lets be real.. what can someone with a bachelors do now a days? Manage a few teenagers at a drive through mcdonalds?
Sure. Different people have different ways of managing debt. But we are not debating how to best approach that situation. We are discussing what an undergraduate education can cost overall. No matter who pays for it, or how, or over the course of whatever number of years, there is still a final cost at the end of the day, right?
My education cost ~26k total for all 4 years for me. I think students need to be sensible with their school choices. Idiot high school counselors love pushing students to these pricey colleges with nice dorms and extravagance, and they are only there to deceive students. Students should always choose their state school if they want to do a healthcare field, and it's always a good idea to go to a community college for a year to save thousands $$$
Now there are some universities that have good connections with their alumni, so people who graduate from these colleges are almost guaranteed good, high paying jobs ($100k+) with only a bachelors, taking out some debt for those schools is worth it.
Just curious. Since the topic is the true cost of schooling, how many of these low tuition numbers are quoted without consideration of financial contributions from outside sources - e.g. federal or state grants or loans, scholarships, family support, work study, jobs, etc? Remember that we're talking about total estimated cost and not necessarily debt after graduation. If you gave a number before these sources were factored in, did your fellow peers pay approximately the same amount regardless of family income, and if that is the case, what types of institutions did you attend?
Bingo on the comment about considering choosing a state school if considering pursuing a healthcare field.
Bingo on the comment about considering choosing a state school if considering pursuing a healthcare field.
Dayum... you must be a gangster.
I'm curious as well.
I pay ~3-4k per year for my undergrad education, but that's mostly, if not all, apartment living costs, but I have grants and scholarships. It really puts me at ease that I won't have to pull out loans for dental school AND for my undergrad education. Without the financial aid, I am guessing that many students pay ~8-10k per year. I go to a public university though with roughly 26k students.
so "talking to dentists", browsing an internet forum and running numbers on your laptop suddenly makes you an expert on dental economics?
the US is recovering from the worst recession since the Great Depression, you really think dentistry is the only profession affected by this? go talk to any small business owner, newly graduated lawyer, business major, engineer etc and ask them how the last few years has been...
the truth is starting a business or finding a job in a down economy is hard, but there will still be people doing well...if you are passionate about the profession, like working with people and can manage your own practice reasonably well you will do fine as a dentist...
haha nah, I don't have grillz or any bling bling
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Do as you please, by all means. I'm not trying to dissuade anyone. This is speculative discussion about the viability of dentistry in light of 1) stratospheric tuition and unfavorable student loans 2) economic challenges on the horizon regarding the formation of a new dental auxiliary (dental therapists and advanced dental therapists) and 3) possibilities of over saturation in dentistry.
You're accusing me of wanting to line my pockets for the very reasons everyone else, including you, is interested in dentistry as a career. You may as well go accuse other hard working medical, law, and graduate business students for wanting to line their pockets, too. Forgive me for wanting to work hard and make a comfortable living at it.
Not an expert, obviously. Just someone looking at all the angles before taking the plunge. I agree with you about the down economy affecting nearly everyone and that passionate dentists will do well. All that aside, it's hard to ignore that a larger proportion of incoming dentists will struggle with big student debt and decreased reimbursement due to competition with dental chains / mid-levels / their peers. I can see the plus side to those going in now if debt can be alleviated heavily but dentistry is ripe for being commoditized - private-equity chain expansion is a bigger problem than dental schools squeezing their students' loan capacity dry. Mid-levels are just fuel added to the fire.
jpark,
I applaud you for not being afraid to face criticism for speaking your opinion and bringing up that issue. It's been a topic in medicine, as well. Take a look at this article from NY Times.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html?scp=1&sq=sibert&st=cse
I understand where you are coming from, but i don't consider "living expenses" as the "cost" of school. I consider tuition, books, laptop, etc as the "cost" of school. I can understand taking out loans for tuition only, but it just doesn't make sense to take out loans for living expenses. There are too many other options.
Tuition is not optional, but living expenses are, you don't have to live on campus and eat their food. Either live at home, get scholarships, or work, but don't take out loans for living expenses. I would also argue that scholarships are not a way of relieving debt, but rather cutting the actual cost of tuition. When they give you free money toward tuition, that doesn't cost you anything.
Either way... best of luck and good for you for pursuing higher education. Sorry it cost you so much!
living expenses are part of the total cost of attendance thus cost of you education. Not sure how you came to the conclusion that living expenses are optional lol.
I think he was trying to say that you would have benefited from having a side job to cover rent, food, and utilities. You can do that easily in undergrad, but unfortunately it doesn't really float in dental school.
My comment is is NOT offensive nor is it highly sexist. Sure there are exceptions, but most women do not want to invest the time in starting their own practice. Why don't you take the time to look at the surveys that are out there?
'Is Opting Out the New American Dream For Working Women' - 84% of working women told ForbesWoman that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to. Approximately half of working moms agree their overall happiness would increase if they didn't work.
There are plenty of articles out there backing up what I said.
"Why do you think that Obama is attempting to pass acts that ensure women are paid equally?"
This is hilarious. You think Lilly-Ledbetter was about equal pay lol
Paycheck Act is trial lawyers' payday - "The Ledbetter Act was a gift to trial lawyers, not women, who are less likely to be hired once bundled with potential lawsuits."
I am commenting on trends that I see. This has been discussed on SDN before you even created an account, and nobody took quite the uproar. Here is the thread and here is a quote from that thread:
" Females in dental school. Females are just as capable as doing everything a male can, but females, in general, don't want to own their own practice as much as males. They would prefer to raise a family and "work for someone else". They have every right to do this, but they will provide a large supply of workers for corporate offices and group practices."
I know more women are entering the field, I am aware of that lol. So are the dental chains. And believe me whether you or I like it, they will not pay you as much. This is supply and demand and capitalism. NOTHING ELSE. I am not holding a grudge against women and I never said I resent women working as dentists.
I noticed in your original post you deleted the part that said I was just concerned about money. No I am not. I am concerned about patient care. Why don't you talk to doctors at hospitals and why don't you talk to dentists at Dental Chains and see what they think. There is a Senate judicial investigation into the unethical conduct of dental chains.
I am very comfortable with that post I made and I am very confident that I respect women completely. So for you to try to paint me as a male chauvinist who dislikes women, is laughable.
In closing:
Blaming the prince of the fools [Obama] should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince. The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."
Do you actually have proof that shows most female dental graduates/dentists do not want to open their own practices or are you just going to claim you're right with no evidence? The Forbes Survey and random quote from a new graduate tell me nothing. If you would like to present evidence that female dental school graduates/dentists do not want to open their own practices, go ahead and do so, but don't delude yourself into thinking you've proven your point.
This article is BS. Expressing intolerance for *people* who would like to take a break from their career for a certain timeframe in order to be able to have a better work-life balance creates negatives for the entire society. With the way some males on SDN talk, you'd think that they wanted to go back to a time period when most medical/dental/optometry/pharmacy students were by and large male.
I really dislike it when people define success based on the status quo of the current patriarchal system. Sometimes in these discussions, people go as far as to say that if women want to pursue health-related careers, they shouldn't have children. I'd like to know what Dr. Sibert thinks of that.
I understand and agree.
Thanks for clarifying my ramblings and i agree with you. Having a side job is very easy to do in undergrad... different story when you are taking 20-30 credits of hard sciences in dental school per semester.
Sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for your response. My point in addressing that issue was to point out that expense is very relative. The estimated sticker price of many state schools (including room and board) across the country, and certainly most of the ones in my state which I am most familiar with, clock in at approximately 25K/year - this number is even higher for states like California. And this is only considering state schools, the colloquial bargains of higher education, not their more expensive private counterparts. This number may be reduced significantly, to only several thousand or even nothing if the student in question is receiving financial aid or scholarships, but that varies from person to person.
For the school that I am attending, I am paying the full amount because my family does not qualify for financial aid, while my closest friend is attending free of charge thanks to need-based aid. I have other friends attending top-notch private institutions at 55k/year (!!!), and know others at that same school who are paying half or nothing because of their family income. The actual amount I owe is very manageable thanks to a part-time job, family contributions, and scholarships, so I won't be like swimming in ridiculous debt when I graduate, but that doesn't negate the full sticker price of the school, which can vary greatly for even two people attending the same institution based on financial background, amongst other things. If your family is poor, you pay much less, or even nothing. If your family is rich, then most likely the tuition is not a problem. The real problem lies with the awkward space of the upper-middle class, who do not benefit from a heavily subsidized education and yet are a little ways away from being able to shrug off the costs. TL;DR - the cost of higher education is complex and depends on a variety of factors. I'm not here to argue whether the extra debt is worth it or great alternatives or how to best pay it back, which would be highly dependent on the situations of each individual person and their family, but it seems narrow-sighted to boil every high-debt situation down to "Oh. Should have gone somewhere cheaper" because the circumstances are in actuality much more complicated than that.
What I'm looking for is a story of someone that went 400k or more into debt, and made it out alive to tell everyone about it. Unfortunately that doesn't really exist yet, because we are the only people in this situation. Anyone that could tell you about paying a huge amount of student loan debt down most likely went to school some time ago when prices weren't as high, and thus they had less debt.
That's what's so unnerving. It's a big question mark - and no one knows if you can go to NYU and then specialize, finance it all, and still have a life that's not crippled by debt. Although I lean towards the "not possible" side of things in that scenario.
That's what's so unnerving. It's a big question mark - and no one knows if you can go to NYU and then specialize, finance it all, and still have a life that's not crippled by debt. Although I lean towards the "not possible" side of things in that scenario.
It's like having a second mortgage. I'm sure people do it, but it's probably very hard. Maybe if these people lived off of their spouse's salary after graduation or even moved back in with their parents or and therefore could use all of their earnings to pay back their loans, they would be able to do it in 5-6 years or so, but I'm sure most people don't have that luxury. Then again, this might fall under your definition of being "crippled with debt."
Same here. I basically have no in-state option and my GPA is low so I'm hoping to get high DAT scores and an acceptance somewhere. I like your optimism, though. We will all make it through. Since you have a spouse, hopefully he can carry most of the financial burden of your living expenses and most of your salary can go toward paying the debt. That way you can get it paid off faster and won't accrue as much interest.
I sat here for 10-15 minutes, trying to find something to flame about.... sadly.... I couldn't.
There is alot of truth in whats posted.
Ultimately, heres the bottom line. Will you be driving expensive cars, with a house on a lake? and a car for every person in your family thats older than 16? No
Will you be able to EASILY generate 100k a year (yes even with a 400k+ debt on next to 8% interest rate)? Yes you will.... It isn't the best/most ideal situation, but a dentist with a good head, sensible business skills, and a little bit of luck, should be able to double-to-triple that income 10-15 years later. Considering your dentistry career is going to last 20-30+ years... I still think its a good investment
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I agree that tuition is absolutely ridiculous right now for dentistry, but it is not anymore ridiculous than most other degrees that enable you to make a 6 figure income...Check the prices of law schools, business schools etc on a per year basis they are just as expensive as dental school...and if debt really concerns you there are plenty of scholarships that will fully pay your tuition (HSPS, NHSC, IHS) in exchange for a few years of paid service
Private equity dental chains cater to low income markets and those who do not have dental insurance...They are no more a threat to the dentist targeting the mid to high end market as the local supercuts is to a high end salon...Choosing a dentist is about trust and the educated patient is willing to pay more for a service where they won't get ripped off or seriously injured which many of these dental chains are notorious for...I suggest you watch the PBS documentary "Dollars and Dentists" to learn more about these chains...even with the recent rise of these chains, solo practitioners still make up nearly 70% of dental offices...
Yeah the midlevels are definitely a threat to associate dentists, but at the same time they can help increase the bottom line and the efficiency of a dentist owning a thriving practice...instead of paying an associate 150-200k, the practice owner can just hire a midlevel for 60-70k (im assuming)...Realistically the threat of midlevels seriously encroaching on our business is at least 10 years away if not more...there is a single school in the entire country training a class of 15 per year and they are licensed only to work in the state of Minnesota...To really make an impact on dentistry, not only do they need to pass laws in every state allowing them to work, they also need to build and establish training programs in those states at a time when state budget deficits are at record highs. In addition to that they actually need to have enough applicants to make funding these programs worthwhile...
So yeah I wouldn't say the sky is falling just yet...Going into dentistry is not easy money these days by any means, but it certainly is not dead either...Like any profession out there it is highly competitive and yet the ones who are good at it will still do well...
cost of dentistry: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=941500
1) stratospheric tuition and unfavorable student loans
Suck it up.
2) economic challenges on the horizon regarding the formation of a new dental auxiliary (dental therapists and advanced dental therapists)
You pay for what you get.
3) possibilities of over saturation in dentistry.
Move to China.
I was thinking this as well. I thought it might actually be advantageous, since I don't see mid-levels becoming a threatening population until at least 10-15 years from now. At this point, I'll be debt free and hopefully owning a practice. If I set up practice in a populated area, I might be able to buy two small practices on the outskirts of town, and just staff mid levels there. They could churn out easy procedures and I could swing out once in a while to perform more serious procedures. I could make a killing if I had 3 mid levels churning out fillings all day if their salary was 75k....
...I should probably focus on getting accepted first.
OK...move to China? 🙄 GTFO! People, ignore this kool-aid sipping IDIOT.
To MR1990:
It looks like you're also looking at medicine and got a decent MCAT score. No problem considering your options... everyone should. I had a similar dilemma and was dead set on attending NYU's dental school last year but the debt situation there is stupid silly... twice as much as a typical medical school (MD and DO) and I'm coming in with $40K in debt from undergrad. I deferred and I'm applying to DO schools now even with a rushed MCAT score that was good enough to get me into a Caribbean program (I'm not going though). There are similar "lifestyle" specialties in medicine that you should consider such as derm and ophtho... a medical degree opens up many more doors and you will have a better chance of nuking your debts. I advise you go to medical school and don't look back.... you'll be glad you did 👍.
