Cost-benefit analysis: Dentistry from here on out is Bust

[jwdent]

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I'm curious if the mid levels happen how the model would work. If dentist are just going to hire dentists to preform certain procedures to increase there bottom lines without really decreasing the cost of treatment, what is the point of a mid level. Or would the mid levels work as independent practitioners in their own offices? If so I would imagine they would have to offer treatments at a reduced cost to compete with dentist. Is owning their own practice something that every mid level would want to do? And I also question the economic viability of their practices. Yes they may have less educational loans, but dental practices are expensive to run and a decent amount of revenues need to be achieved just to cover the overhead.

Also on saturation, I feel its not fair to only mention how more dental students are graduating by fail to address how population in the US continues to increase. Some states have grown by over a million people in the past decade, and the nation continues to grow. Now I do not know if the population growth will indeed offset the number of graduates, and it may be easy to just say "No it will not," but I figured I would bring it up.

 

[jpark1800]

I'm curious if the mid levels happen how the model would work. If dentist are just going to hire dentists to preform certain procedures to increase there bottom lines without really decreasing the cost of treatment, what is the point of a mid level. Or would the mid levels work as independent practitioners in their own offices? If so I would imagine they would have to offer treatments at a reduced cost to compete with dentist. Is owning their own practice something that every mid level would want to do? And I also question the economic viability of their practices. Yes they may have less educational loans, but dental practices are expensive to run and a decent amount of revenues need to be achieved just to cover the overhead.

Also on saturation, I feel its not fair to only mention how more dental students are graduating by fail to address how population in the US continues to increase. Some states have grown by over a million people in the past decade, and the nation continues to grow. Now I do not know if the population growth will indeed offset the number of graduates, and it may be easy to just say "No it will not," but I figured I would bring it up.

Mid-levels will not start their own practices. They are not the type of people. As I said earlier: The little dental therapists remind me of the buffoon cheerleader in high school that complains when she got a 50 on an algebra test, and argued foolishly with the teacher that 1+1 really can equal 3, and thinks that with her 1.0 GPA she should still get into dental school or something like that. Entitled, arrogant, lazy, and snotty. And not intelligent.

The chains will benefit from mid-levels. The chains will be able to use mid-levels freely and will use them to treat more patients at a quicker pace, with little regard for quality. This is cheaper than hiring a dentist, for the chain. Thus the chain will be able to lower its prices and negotiate with the insurance companies for exclusive contracts. Private dentists wont be able to compete. I'm sure the chains will lobby the hel.l out of Washington and say "look at us, we can provide treatment at a lower cost than the private dentists". The politicians will give them all sorts of subsidies and government contracts.

The chains will use the dentists to handle more complicated cases. The dentists wanting employment from the chains will probably have to compete with each other and see who can give the chain a lower bid for their services. The dentist that gives the lowest bid (i.e the dentist that is willing to work for the least compensation) will get the job.

I also want to bring up the point about people saying, "Oh well, chains only treat low-income people." Think of Cheesecake Factory/ Olive Garden/ Macaroni Grill, and those type of restaurants. All are relatively nice, slightly higher scale restaurants that don't cater to just poor-lower middle class people. It appeals to many people who are quite well off, and people who make a pretty darn good amount of money. These type of people are private dentists' most VALUABLE clientele. This will happen in dentistry. A new type of dental chain will emerge: One that has a better looking office with better amenities, offers slightly higher upscale cosmetic dentistry, offers spa services, etc. You get the point. Don't forget the hand behind Cheesecake Factory/Olive Garden is the same hand behind the dental chains: private equity on Wall St. This will hurt private practice dentists the most.

You will have to be creative as a private practice dentist to make a decent amount of money (ie $250K+). If you are very concerned about not being able to make enough, perhaps you should work very very very hard to get OMFS residency. OMFS will always be good. OMFS dentists will probably jump from one chain to another: Yank the thirds, make a good deal of money at one office and keep moving between the chain offices.

 

[DoeAdeer]

You will have to be creative as a private practice dentist to make a decent amount of money (ie $250K+). If you are very concerned about not being able to make enough, perhaps you should work very very very hard to get OMFS residency. OMFS will always be good. OMFS dentists will probably jump from one chain to another: Yank the thirds, make a good deal of money at one office and keep moving between the chain offices.

If you're concerned about not being able to make enough money, then consider banking, not dentistry.

 

[UltimateHombre]

There are similar "lifestyle" specialties in medicine that you should consider such as derm and ophtho... a medical degree opens up many more doors and you will have a better chance of nuking your debts. I advise you go to medical school and don't look back.... you'll be glad you did 👍.

The odds that one gets accepted to med school and then obtains high enough marks in school and on their USMLE to get into any of the ROAD specialties is pretty slim. Maybe anesthesia is somewhat realistic.... but anyone who is dead set on ROAD, should probably not enter medicine, especially from a DO program.

 

[gethscout]

The odds that one gets accepted to med school and then obtains high enough marks in school and on their USMLE to get into any of the ROAD specialties is pretty slim. Maybe anesthesia is somewhat realistic.... but anyone who is dead set on ROAD, should probably not enter medicine, especially from a DO program.

What are the odds that one gets accepted to dental school and then obtains high enough marks in school and on their NBDE to get into any of the ROAD specialties? Zero.

I've worked with many DOs in the ROAD specialties and my sister goes to NYCOM and I've been able to meet with DOs of all specialties there. Most of those I met did ACGME residencies. The trend of DOs going into highly sought after specialties is on the rise so I unequivocally disagree that chances for them are slim.

 

[UltimateHombre]

What are the odds that one gets accepted to dental school and then obtains high enough marks in school and on their NBDE to get into any of the ROAD specialties? Zero.

Yep you are correct... dentists want to be dentists... not physicians.

But if Dentistry was a specialty of medicine, it would be considered in the ROAD specialties, because of the lifestyle it affords.

I've worked with many DOs in the ROAD specialties and my sister goes to NYCOM and I've been able to meet with DOs of all specialties there. Most of those I met did ACGME residencies. The trend of DOs going into highly sought after specialties is on the rise so I unequivocally disagree that chances for them are slim.

I am very glad you have had these experiences with DO's, but your experiences are completely anecdotal and are in contradiction with MATCH statistics. Odds are hard enough to for high achieving MD's to MATCH, let alone DO's.

Also, if you are pre-med, please go troll your own forums.

 

[Smurf12]

1) stratospheric tuition and unfavorable student loans
Suck it up.
2) economic challenges on the horizon regarding the formation of a new dental auxiliary (dental therapists and advanced dental therapists)
You pay for what you get.
3) possibilities of over saturation in dentistry.
Move to China.

This was not directed to any of y'all but the op, in response to that presumptuous remark of theirs. How dare you tell me what my motive for dentistry is.

With only 1 thread, 6 post, 100+ replies, 4,000+ views, all within less than a week; therefore, I think it's safe to say, we've been had.

Look folks, let's stop worrying about the things out of our control and focus on what we can control (i.e. preparing ourselves for the upcoming interview(s)). And yes, the wait is agonizing but with the right attitude it's actually worth it.

Trust me, with only three left on the hit list ; ), the issues presented here by the op are legitimate questions and concerns y'all can bring up during your interview(s). Most likely, everyone's interviewer(s) are middle/older-aged faculty who's been in the profession for decades. I am very positive they can give you a much better conjecture on the future of dentistry with a much higher degree of confidence than us folks here on SDN.

Every schools I've been to, there's always a seminar where they go over strategies where one can overcome the 'stratospheric tuition and unfavorable student loans.' Look, just don't order a Venti at Starbucks everyday while you're in dental school (that's about over $5000, capitalization included, down the drain). You can always piggyback on your parents or spouse's health insurance plan, stay at home(if that's possible), learn to cook, and, simply, live modestly. I'm definitely sure that debt can be wiped out in no time if you just listen to what they tell you at the interview(s).

Yeah.... About the Kool-Aid. Considering I'm still a minor, I can't be on that Patrón till next year, hopefully if I get into dental school next year: )

 

[gethscout]

Yep you are correct... dentists want to be dentists... not physicians.

But if Dentistry was a specialty of medicine, it would be considered in the ROAD specialties, because of the lifestyle it affords.

I am very glad you have had these experiences with DO's, but your experiences are completely anecdotal and are in contradiction with MATCH statistics. Odds are hard enough to for high achieving MD's to MATCH, let alone DO's.

Also, if you are pre-med, please go troll your own forums.

You’re the one that interjected your OPINION about DOs. The NRMP and AOA Match reports for the past four years SUPPORT my assertion that osteopathic physicians are gaining parity with their allopathic counterparts in coveted specialties. You are flat out wrong. How can you come at someone with a misinformed response than tell them to ‘troll’ elsewhere 🙄? I'm not your huckleberry 😉! I love dentistry, too, and was ACCEPTED at NYU last year so I would like to participate if that’s okay by you. SDN started out as a DO forum, FYI.

Back to the OP: beyond ROAD (which arguably now includes EM and PM&R), if you don’t mind primary care average net income has come up over 16% (above $200K) in the last five years so it’s rapidly becoming a favorable option again (Doc Holliday can refer to MGMA and Merritt-Hawkins if he believes what I say is anecdotal). There is still a massive shortage in primary care and plenty of work and no over saturation to worry about, even with NP/PA mid-levels, and it’s the route I’m pursuing now. Pretty much every pre-dent student I know looked at medicine first so there is nothing wrong with figuring out what’s best for you. Medicine (especially primary care) may have sucked for awhile as a career choice but it’s a far better investment than dentistry is now.

Mid-levels will not start their own practices. They are not the type of people. As I said earlier: The little dental therapists remind me of the buffoon cheerleader in high school that complains when she got a 50 on an algebra test, and argued foolishly with the teacher that 1+1 really can equal 3, and thinks that with her 1.0 GPA she should still get into dental school or something like that. Entitled, arrogant, lazy, and snotty. And not intelligent.

The chains will benefit from mid-levels. The chains will be able to use mid-levels freely and will use them to treat more patients at a quicker pace, with little regard for quality. This is cheaper than hiring a dentist, for the chain. Thus the chain will be able to lower its prices and negotiate with the insurance companies for exclusive contracts. Private dentists wont be able to compete. I'm sure the chains will lobby the hel.l out of Washington and say "look at us, we can provide treatment at a lower cost than the private dentists". The politicians will give them all sorts of subsidies and government contracts.

The chains will use the dentists to handle more complicated cases. The dentists wanting employment from the chains will probably have to compete with each other and see who can give the chain a lower bid for their services. The dentist that gives the lowest bid (i.e the dentist that is willing to work for the least compensation) will get the job.

I also want to bring up the point about people saying, "Oh well, chains only treat low-income people." Think of Cheesecake Factory/ Olive Garden/ Macaroni Grill, and those type of restaurants. All are relatively nice, slightly higher scale restaurants that don't cater to just poor-lower middle class people. It appeals to many people who are quite well off, and people who make a pretty darn good amount of money. These type of people are private dentists' most VALUABLE clientele. This will happen in dentistry. A new type of dental chain will emerge: One that has a better looking office with better amenities, offers slightly higher upscale cosmetic dentistry, offers spa services, etc. You get the point. Don't forget the hand behind Cheesecake Factory/Olive Garden is the same hand behind the dental chains: private equity on Wall St. This will hurt private practice dentists the most.

You will have to be creative as a private practice dentist to make a decent amount of money (ie $250K+). If you are very concerned about not being able to make enough, perhaps you should work very very very hard to get OMFS residency. OMFS will always be good. OMFS dentists will probably jump from one chain to another: Yank the thirds, make a good deal of money at one office and keep moving between the chain offices.

Your predictions are $$$. The latest JADA had an advertisement for a job posting for new grads starting at $75k - $90k annual salary... WTF 🙄! The race to the bottom is in full effect and the market will be taking advantage of the desperation of new grads to come. Mind you we’re close to 2013 now and technically supposed to be out of the recession so this can’t be blamed on just the poor economy. With more schools announcing that they plan to open within the next two years (i.e. Marshfield Clinic, UNE, Bluefield College, etc.) this is all becoming evident.

This was not directed to any of y'all but the op, in response to that presumptuous remark of theirs. How dare you tell me what my motive for dentistry is.

With only 1 thread, 6 post, 100+ replies, 4,000+ views, all within less than a week; therefore, I think it's safe to say, we've been had.

Look folks, let’s stop worrying about the things out of our control and focus on what we can control (i.e. preparing ourselves for the upcoming interview(s)). And yes, the wait is agonizing but with the right attitude it's actually worth it.

Trust me, with only three left on the hit list ; ), the issues presented here by the op are legitimate questions and concerns y’all can bring up during your interview(s). Most likely, everyone’s interviewer(s) are middle/older-aged faculty who’s been in the profession for decades. I am very positive they can give you a much better conjecture on the future of dentistry with a much higher degree of confidence than us folks here on SDN.

Every schools I've been to, there's always a seminar where they go over strategies where one can overcome the 'stratospheric tuition and unfavorable student loans.' Look, just don't order a Venti at Starbucks everyday while you're in dental school (that's about over $5000, capitalization included, down the drain). You can always piggyback on your parents or spouse's health insurance plan, stay at home(if that's possible), learn to cook, and, simply, live modestly. I'm definitely sure that debt can be wiped out in no time if you just listen to what they tell you at the interview(s).

Yeah.... About the Kool-Aid. Considering I'm still a minor, I can’t be on that Patrón till next year, hopefully if I get into dental school next year: )

WTH…. do you talk to yourself in the mirror and fist pump every day? 20 y/o and cocky, that figures… The academics at dental schools are the LAST people anyone should confide in. Most of them sold their private practices during the boom years but go ahead and blindly trust counsel from someone whose paychecks come from directly from your rising tuition. But you're in it to win it anyways so go ahead and “please as you do”, joker 🙄. New grads are feeling the suck right now, why do you expect it to get better in four years when current seasoned dentists could hire two therapists instead of you?

 

[DaPug]

WTH…. do you talk to yourself in the mirror and fist pump every day? 20 y/o and cocky, that figures… The academics at dental schools are the LAST people anyone should confide in. Most of them sold their private practices during the boom years but go ahead and blindly trust counsel from someone whose paychecks come from directly from your rising tuition. But you're in it to win it anyways so go ahead and "please as you do", joker 🙄. New grads are feeling the suck right now, why do you expect it to get better in four years when current seasoned dentists could hire two therapists instead of you?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that (at present) there is only 1 dental therapy program in the US and it limits its graduates to practicing in MN. If that is the case, it's going to take far more than 4 years for therapists to gain any real foothold and start crowding associates out of jobs.

 

[Stacker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that (at present) there is only 1 dental therapy program in the US and it limits its graduates to practicing in MN. If that is the case, it's going to take far more than 4 years for therapists to gain any real foothold and start crowding associates out of jobs.

It only takes one domino to get the other dominoes rolling.
Right, it's the University of Minnesota that offers the DT program but DTs are allowed to practice independently in Alaska, Minnesota, and Native-American Indian reservations.
If you look at other countries' models for their use of DTs, you'll see that DTs are placed in public schools like school nurses. DTs provide free cleaning and oral health care for the children as long as they are students in school. Proponents argue that their presence and service instill good preventative personal oral health care habits in children while they're young. They have been proven to be successful in these countries but the problem is that DTs practice at level that are up to those countries' standards. The problem is that the ADA and many of us here argue that DT's are not up to the American standard of dentistry. We take great pride in being the birthplace of professional, evidence-based dentistry, the gold standard of dentistry for the rest of the world, and the paradigm for dental healthcare delivery. Even DTs have to admit that their existence lowers the standard of dental healthcare in the United States.

 

[mmmsteakdinners]

It only takes one domino to get the other dominoes rolling.
Right, it's the University of Minnesota that offers the DT program but DTs are allowed to practice independently in Alaska, Minnesota, and Native-American Indian reservations.
If you look at other countries' models for their use of DTs, you'll see that DTs are placed in public schools like school nurses. DTs provide free cleaning and oral health care for the children as long as they are students in school. Proponents argue that their presence and service instill good preventative personal oral health care habits in children while they're young. They have been proven to be successful in these countries but the problem is that DTs practice at level that are up to those countries' standards. The problem is that the ADA and many of us here argue that DT's are not up to the American standard of dentistry. We take great pride in being the birthplace of professional, evidence-based dentistry, the gold standard of dentistry for the rest of the world, and the paradigm for dental healthcare delivery. Even DTs have to admit that their existence lowers the standard of dental healthcare in the United States.

gasp!

 

[UltimateHombre]

You're the one that interjected your OPINION about DOs. The NRMP and AOA Match reports for the past four years SUPPORT my assertion that osteopathic physicians are gaining parity with their allopathic counterparts in coveted specialties.

Maybe "gaining" parity, but still not even close to parity. By looking at the statistics, one can't deny that going the DO out will hinder your chances for matching the most competitive specialties.

Total % of Students Matching, considers all pathways (NRMP, AOA, and PGY 1/2): See Attachment

Anesthesiology - 6.26% MD, 4.26% DO
Dermatology - 1.7% MD, 0.71% DO
Radiology - 5.04% MD, 2.53%
Surgery - 5.09%, 3.82%

I also feel that these numbers are still not very "fair" in the sense that DO's can match in both the NRMP and AOA, where as MD's can only apply to the NRMP. If MD's had a matching service that accepted only MD's (like the AOA), it would be an even bigger gap.

FM, IM, and EM have never really been considered "competitive" which is why they obviously have a higher percentage of DO's.

Stats not available for optho that i can find.

You are flat out wrong.

The statistics prove otherwise... unless you can provide me with different?

How can you come at someone with a misinformed response than tell them to ‘troll' elsewhere 🙄? I'm not your huckleberry 😉! I love dentistry, too, and was ACCEPTED at NYU last year so I would like to participate if that's okay by you. SDN started out as a DO forum, FYI.

I could careless if you were accepted to NYU or if SDN started as a DO forum, that doesn't change the fact that you are still trolling.

Also, i never asked you to be my huckleberry... nor do i want you to be.

 

[Stacker]

I'm still a bit hazy about when DTs are permitted to practice indirectly of a dentist's presence. I think the autonomy varies with whether they are practicing in reservations or not.

http://www.dentalboard.state.mn.us/Portals/3/Licensing/Dental%20Therapist/DTSCOPE.pdf

 

[DaPug]

It only takes one domino to get the other dominoes rolling.
Right, it's the University of Minnesota that offers the DT program but DTs are allowed to practice independently in Alaska, Minnesota, and Native-American Indian reservations.
If you look at other countries' models for their use of DTs, you'll see that DTs are placed in public schools like school nurses. DTs provide free cleaning and oral health care for the children as long as they are students in school. Proponents argue that their presence and service instill good preventative personal oral health care habits in children while they're young. They have been proven to be successful in these countries but the problem is that DTs practice at level that are up to those countries' standards. The problem is that the ADA and many of us here argue that DT's are not up to the American standard of dentistry. We take great pride in being the birthplace of professional, evidence-based dentistry, the gold standard of dentistry for the rest of the world, and the paradigm for dental healthcare delivery. Even DTs have to admit that their existence lowers the standard of dental healthcare in the United States.

But my point still stands that DTs won't have a foothold for quite a while. I was refuting the assertation that DTs would saturate the market in 4 years.

 

[Stacker]

You’re the one that interjected your OPINION about DOs. The NRMP and AOA Match reports for the past four years SUPPORT my assertion that osteopathic physicians are gaining parity with their allopathic counterparts in coveted specialties. You are flat out wrong. How can you come at someone with a misinformed response than tell them to ‘troll’ elsewhere 🙄? I'm not your huckleberry 😉! I love dentistry, too, and was ACCEPTED at NYU last year so I would like to participate if that’s okay by you. SDN started out as a DO forum, FYI.

Back to the OP: beyond ROAD (which arguably now includes EM and PM&R), if you don’t mind primary care average net income has come up over 16% (above $200K) in the last five years so it’s rapidly becoming a favorable option again (Doc Holliday can refer to MGMA and Merritt-Hawkins if he believes what I say is anecdotal). There is still a massive shortage in primary care and plenty of work and no over saturation to worry about, even with NP/PA mid-levels, and it’s the route I’m pursuing now. Pretty much every pre-dent student I know looked at medicine first so there is nothing wrong with figuring out what’s best for you. Medicine (especially primary care) may have sucked for awhile as a career choice but it’s a far better investment than dentistry is now.




Your predictions are $$$. The latest JADA had an advertisement for a job posting for new grads starting at $75k - $90k annual salary... WTF 🙄! The race to the bottom is in full effect and the market will be taking advantage of the desperation of new grads to come. Mind you we’re close to 2013 now and technically supposed to be out of the recession so this can’t be blamed on just the poor economy. With more schools announcing that they plan to open within the next two years (i.e. Marshfield Clinic, UNE, Bluefield College, etc.) this is all becoming evident.




WTH…. do you talk to yourself in the mirror and fist pump every day? 20 y/o and cocky, that figures… The academics at dental schools are the LAST people anyone should confide in. Most of them sold their private practices during the boom years but go ahead and blindly trust counsel from someone whose paychecks come from directly from your rising tuition. But you're in it to win it anyways so go ahead and “please as you do”, joker 🙄. New grads are feeling the suck right now, why do you expect it to get better in four years when current seasoned dentists could hire two therapists instead of you?

If you are this adamant on choosing a profession with the best return-on-investment, please do convince yourself and others like yourself because dentistry sure as hell doesn't want people who largely consider monetary gain as the all-encompassing decision maker for choosing this profession. The better portion of the applicant pool enter dentistry because they actually want to practice this for the rest of their lives. Good riddance.

 

[Stacker]

But my point still stands that DTs won't have a foothold for quite a while. I was refuting the assertation that DTs would saturate the market in 4 years.

Right, only the absurd and the easily-swayed believes dentistry would be a saturated field in four years. This doesn't mean that the lack of equal and high-standard care should not be addressed. This requires active participation of all dentists in organized dentistry. We are accountable for the maldistribution of dentists. We need to come up with novel ideas, through state and federal incentives, to make problematic areas more attractive areas for debt-burdened new dentists to practice in. Adding non-traditional schools, which don't possess ancillary basic-science and clinical research or specialty departments that advance the profession of dentistry, is one idea but it is far from being the most appropriate. The practice of accepting medicare and medicaid has to be made more attractive to dentists.

People criticizing and speculating the end of dentistry reflects irresponsibility and immaturity. And it sure as hell doesn't fix any problems.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1oPDFAJpKI[/YOUTUBE]

 

[gethscout]

Maybe "gaining" parity, but still not even close to parity. By looking at the statistics, one can't deny that going the DO out will hinder your chances for matching the most competitive specialties.

Total % of Students Matching, considers all pathways (NRMP, AOA, and PGY 1/2): See Attachment

Anesthesiology - 6.26% MD, 4.26% DO
Dermatology - 1.7% MD, 0.71% DO
Radiology - 5.04% MD, 2.53%
Surgery - 5.09%, 3.82%

FM, IM, and EM have never really been considered "competitive" which is why they obviously have a higher percentage of DO's.

Stats not available for optho that i can find.

The statistics prove otherwise... unless you can provide me with different?

I could careless if you were accepted to NYU or if SDN started as a DO forum, that doesn't change the fact that you are still trolling.

Also, i never asked you to be my huckleberry... nor do i want you to be.

Wow… You really have some kind of axe to grind here by steering the conversation into a classic MD/DO debate. I brought up that the OP should consider medicine and I stand by that but thanks for totally steering this thread to another topic entirely to carry on with your straw man argument.



I’d be remiss not to point out that you are acknowledging that the data you’ve provided supports my assertion that DOs are gaining parity in ‘coveted’ specialties at increasing rates than in of years past – there is full parity between MD/DO in the primary care fields and you can’t refute that. All of those percentages you’ve highlighted re: specialty match rates for DOs have been on the rise.


EM has been absolutely competitive for years and you are beyond ignorant for claiming otherwise. All EM positions this year were filled in the first round of the NRMP Match.



The TOS of this forum doesn’t forbid people with different career aspirations from contributing in other sections. You made a response directly to me and I've replied back - it's silly of you to call me out to be a troll when I never messaged you to begin with.

 

[Stacker]

Wow… You really have some kind of axe to grind here by steering the conversation into a classic MD/DO debate. I brought up that the OP should consider medicine and I stand by that but thanks for totally steering this thread to another topic entirely to carry on with your straw man argument.



I’d be remiss not to point out that you are acknowledging that the data you’ve provided supports my assertion that DOs are gaining parity in ‘coveted’ specialties at increasing rates than in of years past – there is full parity between MD/DO in the primary care fields and you can’t refute that. All of those percentages you’ve highlighted re: specialty match rates for DOs have been on the rise.


EM has been absolutely competitive for years and you are beyond ignorant for claiming otherwise. All EM positions this year were filled in the first round of the NRMP Match.



The TOS of this forum doesn’t forbid people with different career aspirations from contributing in other sections. You made a response directly to me and I've replied back - it's silly of you to call me out to be a troll when I never messaged you to begin with.

Dude who cares? We're dentists. This side of the forum could not care less about DO/MD turf wars and arguing one way won't accomplish anything, AT ALL. What do you expect to get out of this argument? Change one person's opinion? Most predental students, dental students, and dentists don't care about your opinion on this issue and using large spaces between paragraphs to make your post visually larger doesn't mean we'll take your opinion with just as much gravity.

 

[gethscout]

Dude who cares? We're dentists. This side of the forum could not care less about DO/MD turf wars and arguing one way won't accomplish anything, AT ALL. What do you expect to get out of this argument? Change one person's opinion? Most predental students, dental students, and dentists don't care about your opinion on this issue and using large spaces between paragraphs to make your post visually larger doesn't mean we'll take your opinion with just as much gravity.

Sorry about the spaces in my previous post, I didn't mean to. Anyway, I agree with you Stacker. The domino effect will occur with the mid-levels. Washington state just approved them last week so you're speculation is correct. By the way, that avatar is awesome LOL!

 

[DoeAdeer]

One last thing, stop focusing on the business of others and mind your own - you'll go far remembering that.

Bolded and underlined for emphasis

 

[HopeforDMD]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that (at present) there is only 1 dental therapy program in the US and it limits its graduates to practicing in MN. If that is the case, it's going to take far more than 4 years for therapists to gain any real foothold and start crowding associates out of jobs.

It's more about the many states that are preparing to introduce dental therapy programs. The dean of my school speculated that there would be new types of midlevels of one sort or another in most states within 10-15 years - but then again, I think my school is planning on opening a midlevel program. He might be biased.

I looked up the salary of dentists in different places with dental therapists already, and it seems they typically make around 50% of what dentists make here. That's in USD of course. That makes sense to me, since midlevels are expected to make about half a dentist's income when they are introduced.

I think if we are smart about this, we can get out from under the debt within 15 years... And if you like the job, $75,000 - $100,000 gross isn't sooo bad.

 

[thewingman]

Trying to justify a $400k debt by saying at least I will like what I am doing and will be making less money, but it is okay is not the right way of thinking about it. Dentistry is just another job - over time it will become routine. There are many other jobs out there that will make you 6 figures or more with only undergrad debt. You predents don't realize how much $400,000 really is and how much takes will take away from your income. You all should visit dentaltown to get a real world perspective.

 

[Silent Cool]

Check out my post on the other thread regarding debt and the quote I posted from a dentist in Chicago.

 

[howaminow]

It really depends. No one knows what the future might hold. For all we know they might allow bankruptcy on student loans in the future or the government might cause schools to drop their tuition, no one knows.

Every profession has people worrying. People who get MBA's have trouble finding jobs, people from big colleges with huge tuitions for a bachelors can't find jobs or find terrible paying jobs.

I know plenty of people who graduated from nursing school and pharmacy school that are having trouble finding jobs, so it is not like dentistry is the only one experiencing trouble in the future.

I was accepted into a big UC, but decided to go to a state school even though they have a bad reputation and saved loads of money. My first year my total tuition was less than 2700, next year 3100, the year after 3400, then 4000 and my final year 4600. I believe a friend of mine at UC Davis this year is paying 4000-5000 a quarter.

Yeah my school might not have much prestige as some schools, but I was a lot happier since it was not as stressful and didn't have to worry about gunners, which allowed me to have more friends instead of dealing with some jerks at UC's who think they are great just because they go to a big name school ( I say this because on my last DAT test some guy from Cal was upset I did better then him even though he went to a better school)

People could save a lot of money, but tend to do things that cost extra money that will increase there debt, by not living at home when they have a chance to, going out too much, eating out too much, partying too much or taking expensive vacations.

When the economy is in the toilet, uncertainty rises too. Just find a way to minimize debts, try to get a scholarship (I'm planning on going through the Air Force hopefully, since I'd rather have reduced my debt even if it means serving in the military), and realize everyone in this economy is facing uncertainty. Plenty of business majors each year graduate, not like having that major is a guarantee to have a successful job.

Also see if you can go to a cheaper university if it will cause no issue. My state school has a great post-bac program, especially the formal dental post-bac program, which is why i decided to go there since I know they had a well establish programmed that has many individuals get into dental school and it helped me not pay a ton in UG tuition like a lot of people.

 

[howaminow]

Also, everything in life is a risk. Sometimes you just have to take a risk to see if it pays off. Many people with high paying jobs might buy a nice house, but they might get fired and end up losing that house.

If you are just looking to find a job to live comfortable enough while working normal hours with none of these supposed 4 days only then you will be fine I believe, this is just my personal opinion.

Now if you think you will be rich driving all these great cars and huge houses, then you have another thing coming probably.

I don't mind living at home right now even though my friends have their own places because I know it will pay off in the long run. Heck I plan on living with my parents after school if I can't get a scholarship, I'm willing to let people think of less of me if it will save me money when I have debt that I need to pay off.

 

[jpark1800]

It really depends. No one knows what the future might hold. For all we know they might allow bankruptcy on student loans in the future or the government might cause schools to drop their tuition, no one knows.

Every profession has people worrying. People who get MBA's have trouble finding jobs, people from big colleges with huge tuitions for a bachelors can't find jobs or find terrible paying jobs.

I know plenty of people who graduated from nursing school and pharmacy school that are having trouble finding jobs, so it is not like dentistry is the only one experiencing trouble in the future.

I was accepted into a big UC, but decided to go to a state school even though they have a bad reputation and saved loads of money. My first year my total tuition was less than 2700, next year 3100, the year after 3400, then 4000 and my final year 4600. I believe a friend of mine at UC Davis this year is paying 4000-5000 a quarter.

Yeah my school might not have much prestige as some schools, but I was a lot happier since it was not as stressful and didn't have to worry about gunners, which allowed me to have more friends instead of dealing with some jerks at UC's who think they are great just because they go to a big name school ( I say this because on my last DAT test some guy from Cal was upset I did better then him even though he went to a better school)

People could save a lot of money, but tend to do things that cost extra money that will increase there debt, by not living at home when they have a chance to, going out too much, eating out too much, partying too much or taking expensive vacations.

When the economy is in the toilet, uncertainty rises too. Just find a way to minimize debts, try to get a scholarship (I'm planning on going through the Air Force hopefully, since I'd rather have reduced my debt even if it means serving in the military), and realize everyone in this economy is facing uncertainty. Plenty of business majors each year graduate, not like having that major is a guarantee to have a successful job.

Also see if you can go to a cheaper university if it will cause no issue. My state school has a great post-bac program, especially the formal dental post-bac program, which is why i decided to go there since I know they had a well establish programmed that has many individuals get into dental school and it helped me not pay a ton in UG tuition like a lot of people.

I am going to tip my hat off to you. You made an extremely intelligent decision to defer a big UC for a state school. You didn't let your ego or prestige get in the way of a rational decision. When I was your age, I did the complete opposite of you. I've weathered the storm fine, but I know I made a mistake.

Do not worry about reputation of your school. It will not make a difference at all, if you get a good GPA and a high DAT score. Good luck, I'm rooting for you. (Just don't apply to the same schools as me )

 

[dichloromethane]

I am going to tip my hat off to you. You made an extremely intelligent decision to defer a big UC for a state school. You didn't let your ego or prestige get in the way of a rational decision. When I was your age, I did the complete opposite of you. I've weathered the storm fine, but I know I made a mistake.

Do not worry about reputation of your school. It will not make a difference at all, if you get a good GPA and a high DAT score. Good luck, I'm rooting for you. (Just don't apply to the same schools as me )

How old are you?

 

[gethscout]

Check out my post on the other thread regarding debt and the quote I posted from a dentist in Chicago.

Could you provide a link or quote the post about what the dentist you're referring to said?

 

[jpark1800]

How old are you?

i don't know why you asked that question because there was nothing wrong with my comment

 

[Bereno]

i don't know why you asked that question because there was nothing wrong with my comment

I believe they are referring to when you said "when I was your age" in post 128 and was curious of your current age. I do not think they meant it in a derogatory way 👍

 

[Titus Times]

My school is 50K + with room and board, I lived on campus my first 3 years and I studied abroad last summer in Spain. I have a 16k per year academic scholarship, but no other financial aid, not even stafford loans. Therefore all parent plus loans, for which I am completely responsible. I make enough money to pay for my rent, but haven't had enough to start paying off my loans..all that adds up to 140K for 4 years.

Look you knew how much your school would cost before you went buddy they didnt just start upping the tuition as soon as you enrolled.

It really depends. No one knows what the future might hold. For all we know they might allow bankruptcy on student loans in the future or the government might cause schools to drop their tuition, no one knows.

Every profession has people worrying. People who get MBA's have trouble finding jobs, people from big colleges with huge tuitions for a bachelors can't find jobs or find terrible paying jobs.

I know plenty of people who graduated from nursing school and pharmacy school that are having trouble finding jobs, so it is not like dentistry is the only one experiencing trouble in the future.

I was accepted into a big UC, but decided to go to a state school even though they have a bad reputation and saved loads of money. My first year my total tuition was less than 2700, next year 3100, the year after 3400, then 4000 and my final year 4600. I believe a friend of mine at UC Davis this year is paying 4000-5000 a quarter.

Yeah my school might not have much prestige as some schools, but I was a lot happier since it was not as stressful and didn't have to worry about gunners, which allowed me to have more friends instead of dealing with some jerks at UC's who think they are great just because they go to a big name school ( I say this because on my last DAT test some guy from Cal was upset I did better then him even though he went to a better school)

People could save a lot of money, but tend to do things that cost extra money that will increase there debt, by not living at home when they have a chance to, going out too much, eating out too much, partying too much or taking expensive vacations.
QUOTE]

I agree Completely My first two years of Undergrad will be payed for entirely, ask me how that was possible. And my Last two years will be at a whooping 16k a year at my university, and mind you I could have tried to go to Duke, Wake Forest, UNC Chap, or Davidson, but why pay 25k+ a year.

And my school is not even the cheapest in my State (NC) some of these kids get this idea they must go to one of a list of about 5 top schools in state whose tution kills in order to get into Med/Dent Sorry just not the case.

 

[Silent Cool]

The odds that one gets accepted to med school and then obtains high enough marks in school and on their USMLE to get into any of the ROAD specialties is pretty slim. Maybe anesthesia is somewhat realistic.... but anyone who is dead set on ROAD, should probably not enter medicine, especially from a DO program.

Ultimate, I would agree with this. Derm and Ophtho especially are almost out of the question for a DO student. Even for top allopathic students, these fields are very competitive. There simply are not enough spots. I agree, too--don't bank on ROAD, except for anesthesia.

 

[Silent Cool]

Wow… You really have some kind of axe to grind here by steering the conversation into a classic MD/DO debate. I brought up that the OP should consider medicine and I stand by that but thanks for totally steering this thread to another topic entirely to carry on with your straw man argument.



I’d be remiss not to point out that you are acknowledging that the data you’ve provided supports my assertion that DOs are gaining parity in ‘coveted’ specialties at increasing rates than in of years past – there is full parity between MD/DO in the primary care fields and you can’t refute that. All of those percentages you’ve highlighted re: specialty match rates for DOs have been on the rise.


EM has been absolutely competitive for years and you are beyond ignorant for claiming otherwise. All EM positions this year were filled in the first round of the NRMP Match.



The TOS of this forum doesn’t forbid people with different career aspirations from contributing in other sections. You made a response directly to me and I've replied back - it's silly of you to call me out to be a troll when I never messaged you to begin with.

Yup, EM is super popular. All spots filled. Gaining parity, yes, but there is still a Bias. Definitely hard to get into the more competitive fields esp. at the higher end institutions as a DO. But things are certainly better than they used to be. The bias, however, will probably always be around somewhat.

PS: My doc growing up was a DO. Good doc.

 

[qnzbabi91]

If it is such a bust, just become part of a DMD/pHd program.

 

[Silent Cool]

Could you provide a link or quote the post about what the dentist you're referring to said?

Yup:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=13263733#post13263733

 

[NDPitch]

What I'm most worried about is the economy. If we fall hard over this debt and poor fiscal policy, I'm worried dentistry will become unimportant to the population. I worry that dental work will take a back seat in many people's lives under hard times and an even tougher economy. If that happens, then maybe dentistry will be bust?? Imagine going through that as a dentist with a ton of student loans and other expenses. Sigh. I don't know.

 

[Silent Cool]

What I'm most worried about is the economy. If we fall hard over this debt and poor fiscal policy, I'm worried dentistry will become unimportant to the population. I worry that dental work will take a back seat in many people's lives under hard times and an even tougher economy. If that happens, then maybe dentistry will be bust?? Imagine going through that as a dentist with a ton of student loans and other expenses. Sigh. I don't know.

I messaged a pathologist over on the path forum and here is what he said:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Cool View Post
LADoc,

Do yo know if current staffords and grad plus track LIBOR as well? I thought the current federal loans are fixed. I've been thinking that, over time, the only way these loans are palatable is through some significant inflation, but it sounds like that might not help at all. I can't believe how quickly these loans have soured the prospects of what were once good careers.

thanx


I havent looked at this for 10+ years but I think that most Sallie Mae loans do float on a US Rate the Fed Interbank Borrowing Rate (also called the "U.S. overnight") and most private corp loans float on the LIBOR but I could be wrong now.

Inflation would only help the US govt IF a large portion of borrowers defaulted and threatened Sallie Mae itself...which is almost guaranteed to happen.

There is a period in the next 10 years where the US and EU government go on rampant, open proinflationary rampages to destroy the value of the debt they hold. When that happens, physicians are as good as dead.

 

[thewobblytooth]

If it is such a bust, just become part of a DMD/pHd program.

lol. just don't come to UM if that's your goal. 👍

 

[Dent4GA]

Yeah, I said it. After long periods of browsing Dental Town, talking with newly minted and seasoned dentists, and running numbers and financial scenarios based on current tuition and small business loan rates, I've concluded that dentistry, as a profession, is a losing scenario save for a few exceptions. Here's why I feel this way:

1) Dentistry was a hot ticket up until 2009, just a few years post-2008 crash. Combines the loss of easy access to credit for patients / customers and the number of new grads being pumped out - hello oversaturation. Yes, the bad economy is to blame but there are long-term events that have occurred which lead to my next points. Old timers have curtailed retirement and a few recent grads I know have taken crap positions at corporate dental clinics (Aspen).

2) Dental school tuition has become obscene. If you are an OOS student or go to one of the privates (examples: Penn, NYU, BU, USC, UoP, etc.) and plan to borrow fully to fund your education then take the time to really examine what you're signing up for in light of a strong downward pressure on dentist incomes that have occurred and will probably get worse in the next decade. Borrowing $350K plus at an aggregate interest rate of over 7% (Stafford Grad at 6.8% maxes out at $224K and Grad PLUS picks up most of the rest at 7.9%) is ridiculous. Have fun paying $3K plus per month for the next 10 years.

3) The threat of mid-levels is real and it's game changing but dentistry won't be able to cope as well as medicine. Look at examples in medicine for reference (examples: CRNAs, NPs in primary care / psych, etc). Yeah, the landscape in medicine has changed because of mid-levels but, by and large, physicians still can get plenty of work even in a bad economy. Within this decade, I foresee huge expansion of the new dental therapist programs and their profession will petition for independent practice, just as NPs and CRNAs have done successfully. The private-equity corporate dental chains will take advantage of this mercilessly. Their reasoning will be: 'why hire a new dentist when you can hire three therapists to do all the bread and butter work and make a killing?'

I only really see a few exceptions to current pre-dents going all-in on dentistry who have passion for it and can't see themselves doing anything else:

1) You can overcome the tuition issue. Maybe you have a big inheritance coming your way, you get a public pay back scholarship (military, NHSC, etc), or you go to a very cheap-tuition State school (Texas).

2) You will inherit a relative's dental practice at some super low price (or at no-cost, even).

I don't mean to be "sky is falling" and Debbie Downer but I feel that dentistry, as a profession, is going bust.

I invite discussion about this - please convince me how and why I'm wrong.

The need for dental care is not ever going to decline, it is only going to increase yearly from now on out. Dentists are always going to have a role no matter what. Yes the landscape can and probably will change, but all in all the people that are committed to this profession are going to make it happen despite the odds. Yes, some will be graduating with an enormous amount of debt, but it is up to those students to manage their debt appropriately. For the most part, dental students as a whole are smart people, and the ones that figure out ways to pay off their debts quickly and in a manageable manner will be successful.

I'm pretty sick and tired of all the negativity surrounding these message boards. As medicine changes so do techniques for treating patients. It's very important to note that a changing landscape does not necessarily lead to something that will be out of control. Dentistry might not look exactly the same as our previous generations, but everyone that is committed to making a difference for our generation will make it a good one.

 

[Silent Cool]

The need for dental care is not ever going to decline, it is only going to increase yearly from now on out. Dentists are always going to have a role no matter what. Yes the landscape can and probably will change, but all in all the people that are committed to this profession are going to make it happen despite the odds. Yes, some will be graduating with an enormous amount of debt, but it is up to those students to manage their debt appropriately. For the most part, dental students as a whole are smart people, and the ones that figure out ways to pay off their debts quickly and in a manageable manner will be successful.

I'm pretty sick and tired of all the negativity surrounding these message boards. As medicine changes so do techniques for treating patients. It's very important to note that a changing landscape does not necessarily lead to something that will be out of control. Dentistry might not look exactly the same as our previous generations, but everyone that is committed to making a difference for our generation will make it a good one.

That's nice, but you also need to acknowledge that we are talking about 500-thousand dollars of debt!! Do you have any idea how much money that is? That is absurd. No generation previously ever had to deal with this. These are 30 year loans. That is INSANE. No graduating student should have to "manage" 500K of debt. Putting that on the back of students is immoral and unethical. There are students graduating from Texas schools with less than 100K of debt. Do you have any idea how different their lives and opportunities from students graduating from schools with 500K debt????

 

[deleted487471]

That's nice, but you also need to acknowledge that we are talking about 500-thousand dollars of debt!! Do you have any idea how much money that is? That is absurd. No generation previously ever had to deal with this. These are 30 year loans. That is INSANE. No graduating student should have to "manage" 500K of debt. Putting that on the back of students is immoral and unethical. There are students graduating from Texas schools with less than 100K of debt. Do you have any idea how different their lives and opportunities from students graduating from schools with 500K debt????

And I suppose the 500k schools you speak of are holding a gun to students' heads and forcing them to attend? Even among private schools, there are many that don't cost anywhere near 500k.

 

[DMDWANNABEE]

The need for dental care is not ever going to decline, it is only going to increase yearly from now on out. Dentists are always going to have a role no matter what. Yes the landscape can and probably will change, but all in all the people that are committed to this profession are going to make it happen despite the odds. Yes, some will be graduating with an enormous amount of debt, but it is up to those students to manage their debt appropriately. For the most part, dental students as a whole are smart people, and the ones that figure out ways to pay off their debts quickly and in a manageable manner will be successful.

I'm pretty sick and tired of all the negativity surrounding these message boards. As medicine changes so do techniques for treating patients. It's very important to note that a changing landscape does not necessarily lead to something that will be out of control. Dentistry might not look exactly the same as our previous generations, but everyone that is committed to making a difference for our generation will make it a good one.

That is quite a statement. It encompasses not only an affirmation that the researchers trying to reduce carries incidence will fail, but also that the average american will continue to be able to afford dental care to a similar degree as they currently do now. I'm not saying you're wrong, but a safer statement might be that demand for dental services will probably not diminish very much in the near future.

That's not really the point though. Even if demand modestly climbs in the future (it's actually dropped 15-20% since the recession, but that's no doubt temporary), supply could very well outpace it. We haven't yet felt the effect of the coming mid-levels or the influx of foreign trained doctors (gaining accreditation in the US for the first time in response to the access to care issue), to complement our ever-growing number of graduating dental students.

I agree that there will always be a need for dentists. But because that need almost certainly will not always outpace the supply of dentists (and dentist alternatives) it would probably be wise to get a relatively low-cost education. Otherwise, you had really better not be joking when you said in your interview you were there because you wanted to help people.

Or at least don't ask for a bailout just because after 20 years of busting your butt you have the net worth of a financially savy public school teacher.

 

[corymartin2012]

The two main problems are school debt and mid level providers.

First off about student debt. You need to make smart financial decisions for undergrad. 50k a year is crazy and I believe unwise unless an Ivy school. Suck it up and handle larger classes and not as great living conditions. Community colleges are cheap and if you work during school you can go debt free. Most state university flagship schools have great merit scholarships. Many of these grant good scholarships to OOS (such as my school UTD).

Mid level providers should not be a concern to anyone reading thus. Anyone reading this should by the 2023 have graduated and been in practice for multiple years. Even at this time mid level providers will still be largely misappropriated in northern and rural areas and start to maybe make an entrance into private practice ase know it after 12-18 years. Maybe. You will have to manage a great practice but you will survive.

Here's my advice:
Get out of undergrad with less than 60k debt.
Get out of dental school with less than 200k debt
Do one year residency/military/associates
Open practice in rural city of 2500-6000 people
Or open in rural community with dozens of 1200-2000 people cities nearby
Run a good practice/participate in community (thus has major impact in small towns)
Make 150k+ comfortably still.
When mid levels become big, open two/three practices, you do major work/supervise
Make killing.
Retire and golf.

Or at least that's my plan give or take.

 

[deleted487471]

The two main problems are school debt and mid level providers.

First off about student debt. You need to make smart financial decisions for undergrad. 50k a year is crazy and I believe unwise unless an Ivy school. Suck it up and handle larger classes and not as great living conditions. Community colleges are cheap and if you work during school you can go debt free. Most state university flagship schools have great merit scholarships. Many of these grant good scholarships to OOS (such as my school UTD).

Mid level providers should not be a concern to anyone reading thus. Anyone reading this should by the 2023 have graduated and been in practice for multiple years. Even at this time mid level providers will still be largely misappropriated in northern and rural areas and start to maybe make an entrance into private practice ase know it after 12-18 years. Maybe. You will have to manage a great practice but you will survive.

Here's my advice:
Get out of undergrad with less than 60k debt.
Get out of dental school with less than 200k debt
Do one year residency/military/associates
Open practice in rural city of 2500-6000 people
Or open in rural community with dozens of 1200-2000 people cities nearby
Run a good practice/participate in community (thus has major impact in small towns)
Make 150k+ comfortably still.
When mid levels become big, open two/three practices, you do major work/supervise
Make killing.
Retire and golf.

Or at least that's my plan give or take.

Good advice, and I definitely agree with being very cautious about finances, but the bolded part is very difficult (if not impossible) to do unless you're a Texas resident. The cheapest private school I applied to runs around 330k, and even a lot of state schools are over 200k.

 

[dentaldental1]

One thing that I have noticed regarding the oversupply of people in dentistry is that from talking to some students of a particular demographic at my school, is that they are not as intent about owning their own practice and they also express the idea of working short work weeks (ie. 1-3 days). As this demographic is prevalent in dental schools I wonder if it is a common trend and would maybe play to the benefit of those who aspire to own their own practice some day and work lengthier weeks?

 

[gethscout]

I also feel that these numbers are still not very "fair" in the sense that DO's can match in both the NRMP and AOA, where as MD's can only apply to the NRMP. If MD's had a matching service that accepted only MD's (like the AOA), it would be an even bigger gap.

It's amazing how fast things change. Earlier this month the ACGME and AOA announced that they will be COMBINING the Match starting in 2015 and that all residency programs will be DUALLY accredited shortly thereafter making ROAD and all other IM subspecialties even more accessible for DOs. I'll reiterate this again - your argument that one should not enter osteopathic medical training if they're interested in one of these fields is FLAT OUT incorrect.

 

[sacapuntas]

It's amazing how fast things change. Earlier this month the ACGME and AOA announced that they will be COMBINING the Match starting in 2015 and that all residency programs will be DUALLY accredited shortly thereafter making ROAD and all other IM subspecialties even more accessible for DOs. I'll reiterate this again - your argument that one should not enter osteopathic medical training if they're interested in one of these fields is FLAT OUT incorrect.

cute DO/MD debate in the pre-DENTAL forum...got nothing to do today?

 

[gethscout]

What I'm most worried about is the economy. If we fall hard over this debt and poor fiscal policy, I'm worried dentistry will become unimportant to the population. I worry that dental work will take a back seat in many people's lives under hard times and an even tougher economy. If that happens, then maybe dentistry will be bust?? Imagine going through that as a dentist with a ton of student loans and other expenses. Sigh. I don't know.

It already is. MR1990 pretty much called it and I agree that much of his/her predictions will take place if they haven't already. If there were no dental "insurance" plans hardly anyone would see a dentist and their hygienist for routine work.

 

[gethscout]

cute DO/MD debate in the pre-DENTAL forum...got nothing to do today?

Your remark is more correctly aimed at UltimateHombre. He's the shortsighted fool who brought it up in the first place in a response to me.

Shouldn't you be worrying about getting that Army scholarship in case an acceptance comes your way?

"got nothing to do today?" LOL, and what are you doing on these forums right now? 😉

 

[gethscout]

That is quite a statement. It encompasses not only an affirmation that the researchers trying to reduce carries incidence will fail, but also that the average american will continue to be able to afford dental care to a similar degree as they currently do now. I'm not saying you're wrong, but a safer statement might be that demand for dental services will probably not diminish very much in the near future.

That's not really the point though. Even if demand modestly climbs in the future (it's actually dropped 15-20% since the recession, but that's no doubt temporary), supply could very well outpace it. We haven't yet felt the effect of the coming mid-levels or the influx of foreign trained doctors (gaining accreditation in the US for the first time in response to the access to care issue), to complement our ever-growing number of graduating dental students.

I agree that there will always be a need for dentists. But because that need almost certainly will not always outpace the supply of dentists (and dentist alternatives) it would probably be wise to get a relatively low-cost education. Otherwise, you had really better not be joking when you said in your interview you were there because you wanted to help people.

Or at least don't ask for a bailout just because after 20 years of busting your butt you have the net worth of a financially savy public school teacher.

BOOM! Headshot! Pre-dents ignore this kinda stuff (aka facts and trends) until they actually get there and their "love of teeth" delusions fall by the wayside. Dentistry is similar to dermatology - it's only popular because it pays well (or so they believe). Take away the money potential and watch the dominoes fall.