Cost of Attendance is screwing me... Can anyone help?

[spector0]

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So here's the deal. I've been offered a great spot at a great program, and I accepted the position after doing lots of homework about the financials. My wife and I are expecting in approx. 2 weeks, and have had lots of concerns about the finances. I applied for both the Graduate PLUS loan and a private grad loan. Unfortuantely, this morning I realized that the COA is totally going to screw me, no matter what.

I was wondering if anyone has any idea's for overcoming this. My biggest concern is for the first year, as my wife won't be working, but I don't want to move there, then starve (you know, more than grad students already starve, especially with a kid).

Any suggestions? I'm looking into non-school-certified loans, but haven't had much luck...

Thanks,
Spector0

 

[JeyRo]

So here's the deal. I've been offered a great spot at a great program, and I accepted the position after doing lots of homework about the financials. My wife and I are expecting in approx. 2 weeks, and have had lots of concerns about the finances. I applied for both the Graduate PLUS loan and a private grad loan. Unfortuantely, this morning I realized that the COA is totally going to screw me, no matter what.

I was wondering if anyone has any idea's for overcoming this. My biggest concern is for the first year, as my wife won't be working, but I don't want to move there, then starve (you know, more than grad students already starve, especially with a kid).

Any suggestions? I'm looking into non-school-certified loans, but haven't had much luck...

Thanks,
Spector0

Just to clarify - is this an unfunded program, or substantially unfunded?

 

[graduatingsoon]

As a general rule of thumb, you don't want to take out more $ in student loans than your expected 1st year income. This is what any financial planner will tell you and also any financially sound person. Otherwise, you are going to be at risk for not being able to pay back your loans (which do not go away with bankruptcy).

I don't know what degree you are looking at, but for clinical psychology the expected early career salaries are about 50-60K after post-doc. Therefore, you graduate school debt, including undergrad debt, should not exceed 50-60K total for all the years of school.

I don't have private loans, but I know psychology graduates who do and it is a nightmare (one has 18% interest rates) so you def. don't want to deal with those at all.

If this is not feasible for you, then you should be re-visiting whether graduate school makes sense at all, especially if you are supporting your wife and child.

Non-school certified loans are going to require excellent credit and have very high interest rates. Don't do it.

 

[graduatingsoon]

Just to clarify - is this an unfunded program, or substantially unfunded?

LOL. I think he may be talking about your favorite school, Palo Alto University, since federal loans + private loans are still not enough to finance this education. He is even looking into non-school loans!

 

[DynamicDidactic]

tough situation. can you defer enrolling for a year?

but, as mentioned, you really should not accumulate a lot of debt.

 

[JeyRo]

LOL. I think he may be talking about your favorite school, Palo Alto University, since federal loans + private loans are still not enough to finance this education. He is even looking into non-school loans!

Yeah, the private loans are probably the red flag here. My "favorite school".... yeah....😛

I would say just put off going, frankly. If the OP is taking out private loans you have a financial nightmare on your hands that even goes beyond the problems with out-of-control stafford balances, as you can't put private loans on IBR/ICR payment plans, AND you can't discharge them in bankruptcy.

 

[Rivi]

So here's the deal. I've been offered a great spot at a great program, and I accepted the position after doing lots of homework about the financials. My wife and I are expecting in approx. 2 weeks, and have had lots of concerns about the finances. I applied for both the Graduate PLUS loan and a private grad loan. Unfortuantely, this morning I realized that the COA is totally going to screw me, no matter what.

I was wondering if anyone has any idea's for overcoming this. My biggest concern is for the first year, as my wife won't be working, but I don't want to move there, then starve (you know, more than grad students already starve, especially with a kid).

Any suggestions? I'm looking into non-school-certified loans, but haven't had much luck...

Thanks,
Spector0

I would strongly consider deferring, or just not taking the position. If it were me, I would defer, and if they didn't give me that option, I would walk away from it. This is especially true if it is an unfunded professional/private school, which I have a suspicion that it is.

Are you aware of the internship imbalance? The post-doc process? Being geographically limited is something that will hurt you throughout this process.

As far as quicker programs that offer similar salaries, consider P.A. and NP schools. If I were in your position, and wanted to get done with school as quickly as possible while getting a degree that I could support a family on with a middle class lifestyle, I would lean towards NP or PA schools, personally. I would consider a doctorate in psychology only if it was funded.

 

[graduatingsoon]

I would strongly consider deferring, or just not taking the position. If it were me, I would defer, and if they didn't give me that option, I would walk away from it. This is especially true if it is an unfunded professional/private school, which I have a suspicion that it is.

Are you aware of the internship imbalance? The post-doc process? Being geographically limited is something that will hurt you throughout this process.

As far as quicker programs that offer similar salaries, consider P.A. and NP schools. If I were in your position, and wanted to get done with school as quickly as possible while getting a degree that I could support a family on with a middle class lifestyle, I would lean towards NP or PA schools, personally. I would consider a doctorate in psychology only if it was funded.

People taking out massive debt also falsely believe that they will be able to quality for public interest loan forgiveness. If the program also does not have a good APA internship rate, then the chances of getting into a position that will allow you to use the public service loan forgiveness are also low (e.g., you would be eliminated from VA/military positions without apa internship).

 

[JeyRo]

I would consider a doctorate in psychology only if it was funded.

I would even go so far as saying if you could get away with no more than (at the most) say, around 60K of debt (around the median starting salary of psychologists in the US) you should consider it. But the fact that you're considering utilizing frankly dangerous sources of credit (e.g., private loans) in order to cover the cost tells me you're looking at expected debt that's considerably higher than that figure.....

Don't do it. You've got a kid on the way, right?

 

[bmedclinic]

to clarify, I thought common belief on here was that psychologists never got to use PLSR service anyways, and it was a "real doctor" thing in the VA.

 

[Jas1360]

If you and your wife will not have an income, here are a couple possibilities during your first year.

WIC (fruits, vegetables, bread, milk, eggs, if she nurses the baby or formula if she does not nurse the baby)
Medicaid for all three of you
Food stamps

I'm not saying that you should or should not use these programs but you may qualify for them so it is worth looking into.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

to clarify, I thought common belief on here was that psychologists never got to use PLSR service anyways, and it was a "real doctor" thing in the VA.

Nope, psychologists (and pretty much anyone else working in the public/non-profit sector I believe) can qualify for public sector loan forgiveness. You might be thinking of the National Health Service Corps loan repayment programs, although clinical psychologists (and LCSWs) actually qualify for these as well.

The other thing you could be thinking of would be one-time loan repayment bonuses that the VA is able to offer (I forget their official name). While psychologists technically could receive these, they often don't, as the bonuses are used to entice people to hard-to-fill positions...none of which are usually in psychology. Thus, physicians most often seem to be able to negotiate this as part of their hiring package.

 

[JeyRo]

Nope, psychologists (and pretty much anyone else working in the public/non-profit sector I believe) can qualify for public sector loan forgiveness. You might be thinking of the National Health Service Corps loan repayment programs, although clinical psychologists (and LCSWs) actually qualify for these as well.

The other thing you could be thinking of would be one-time loan repayment bonuses that the VA is able to offer (I forget their official name). While psychologists technically could receive these, they often don't, as the bonuses are used to entice people to hard-to-fill positions...none of which are usually in psychology. Thus, physicians most often seem to be able to negotiate this as part of their hiring package.

They aren't one-time loan repayment bonuses, actually - I think the program is called SLRP and you can get up to 10K per year, lifetime maximum of 60K (I researched this and I dutifully apply for it every year now - and always get bupkis). And yes, they don't get awarded to psychologists as pretty much the hard-and-fast rule, because they're designed as retention bonuses. And, as we all know, psychologists are a cheap date and don't need retention bonuses.

 

[spector0]

I suppose I could have given a bit more information. My mistake.

Firstly, it's not PAU 😛. It is a funded program (approx 15k/year), and I have received a small fellowship. It's also an APA accredited program doing precisely what I want to do with arguably the best person doing it, with the population I want to work with (PTSD/Vets). Currently, I think the only year I really *NEED* assistance is going to be year 1, as previously mention, my wife will be home instead of working. Right now, we anticipate that as soon as he's old enough to attend daycare (next summer), she'll be able to work again, reducing our need.

Right now, I think we're in "We might be able to scrape by" territory. I'd just like to have something worked out just in case.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

They aren't one-time loan repayment bonuses, actually - I think the program is called SLRP and you can get up to 10K per year, lifetime maximum of 60K (I researched this and I dutifully apply for it every year now - and always get bupkis). And yes, they don't get awarded to psychologists as pretty much the hard-and-fast rule, because they're designed as retention bonuses. And, as we all know, psychologists are a cheap date and don't need retention bonuses.

Yep, that's exactly what I was referring to (i.e., SLRP), thanks for correcting my inaccuracies.

 

[undecidedman]

This is a bit personal, so feel free to disregard. But can I ask why you are considering this field with a family? I'm scared to death about entering this field due to the eventually payoff and i'm a single guy...if i had people dependent on me, it would stress me out to know i am getting into something that doesn't have a great payoff. Than again, I am a very undecided man.

 

[spector0]

Your definition of payoff and mine are probably very different. I'm looking at a military career doing what I feel to be critically important work.

 

[erg923]

Your definition of payoff and mine are probably very different. I'm looking at a military career doing what I feel to be critically important work.

That's great and all, but its just as competitive for these jobs as it is in the rest of the market and loan repayment is only available if you reup for a second round (assuming you were talking about going active duty by doing internship and the doing the 3 year commitment).

I would also advise that this is not a family friendly means of employment-relocations, extended overseas deployments, etc. Again, I think that's great, but I would never recommend relying on any government repayment of loans. Never. None of it is ever guaranteed and its always changing.

 

[roubs]

Your definition of payoff and mine are probably very different. I'm looking at a military career doing what I feel to be critically important work.

I would spend time googling every scholarship imaginable, there are some that are psych specific, group identification specific, I even know of one someone received that's for anyone in grad school. Then apply for WIC/SNAP.

 

[JeyRo]

That's great and all, but its just as competitive for these jobs as it is in the rest of the market and loan repayment is only available if you reup for a second round (assuming you were talking about going active duty by doing internship and the doing the 3 year commitment).

I would also advise that this is not a family friendly means of employment-relocations, extended overseas deployments, etc. Again, I think that's great, but I would never recommend relying on any government repayment of loans. Never. None of it is ever guaranteed and its always changing.

Relying on government promises to assure your well-being is at best a highly risky proposition.

 

[spector0]

That's great and all, but its just as competitive for these jobs as it is in the rest of the market and loan repayment is only available if you reup for a second round (assuming you were talking about going active duty by doing internship and the doing the 3 year commitment).

I would also advise that this is not a family friendly means of employment-relocations, extended overseas deployments, etc. Again, I think that's great, but I would never recommend relying on any government repayment of loans. Never. None of it is ever guaranteed and its always changing.

I've over 8 years time in service, including tours overseas. I know the military lifestyle, as does my wife. I am not counting on the government repaying my loans, although, if after ten years, if I haven't repaid everything, I'd welcome it as I believe military service counts as public service for the time requirement. I do not trust the government for anything long term (Which is why my retirement plan doesn't count on social security). As I've said, I'm only looking to supplement our first years income, primarily in case of emergency.

I appreciate peoples contributions to this thread. I would be lying if I said I knew everything about this transition. I have considered deferment, and even discussed it with my professor as a plan b.

Regarding my other financial plans, I'm planning to apply for the HPSP the end of my first year, as directed by AMEDD recruiting. If selected (Yes, I know that's an if), internship will be a non-issue, as will my immediate job prospects following graduation. Even if I'm not selected, I can still pursue a direct commission ending with the same benefits, sans-internship.

Again, I'm only concerned about year 1. WIC and SNAP are great ideas that I had not considered.

 

[cara susanna]

internship will be a non-issue, as will my immediate job prospects following graduation. Even if I'm not selected, I can still pursue a direct commission ending with the same benefits, sans-internship.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding or ignorant on this matter, but I'm having trouble believing this. Every clinical psych PsyD or PhD program requires an internship to graduate.

 

[spector0]

Maybe I'm misunderstanding or ignorant on this matter, but I'm having trouble believing this. Every clinical psych PsyD or PhD program requires an internship to graduate.

Sorry, that was ambiguous. The HPSP program guarantees internship at one of five military sites, then you go on to your military career. Direct Commissioning offers many of the same benefits of military service, but does not get you your internship. Either route requires an internship, as per APA requirements.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[erg923]

Sorry, that was ambiguous. The HPSP program guarantees internship at one of five military sites, then you go on to your military career. Direct Commissioning offers many of the same benefits of military service, but does not get you your internship. Either route requires an internship, as per APA requirements.

Sorry for the confusion.

The compensation and level of respect and leadership offered to psychologists in the military is impressive. So, I am wondering why there is such a retention problem and general shortage of psychologists in the service? I have been contacted numerous times by "contract companies" who serve DOD and supply psychologists to them in the civilian-contract role. A base near my home is constantly recruiting people to come there. Good salary too, If I werent trying to stay at least somewhat an academic, I'd go for it.

 

[roubs]

The compensation and level of respect and leadership offered to psychologists in the military is impressive. So, I am wondering why there is such a retention problem and general shortage of psychologists in the service? I have been contacted numerous times by "contract companies" who serve DOD and supply psychologists to them in the civilian-contract role. A base near my home is constantly recruiting people to come there. Good salary too, If I werent trying to stay at least somewhat an academic, I'd go for it.

The age at which you get licensed and eligible to be sent to overseas stations is pretty close to the age at which a lot of families start having young kids. It could also be that the demand for services just outstrips supply of uniformed providers and they've figured it's better for the budget to have a mix of military and contract civilian personnel. (Though I've heard from some contract people that they actually do better than uniformed providers, so who knows)

 

[spector0]

The compensation and level of respect and leadership offered to psychologists in the military is impressive. So, I am wondering why there is such a retention problem and general shortage of psychologists in the service? I have been contacted numerous times by "contract companies" who serve DOD and supply psychologists to them in the civilian-contract role. A base near my home is constantly recruiting people to come there. Good salary too, If I werent trying to stay at least somewhat an academic, I'd go for it.

I'd go out on a limb and suggest that most people simply aren't used to the lifestyle. I am unsure if it's a retention issue, or a demand issue.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd go out on a limb and suggest that most people simply aren't used to the lifestyle. I am unsure if it's a retention issue, or a demand issue.

I'd agree, and say it's probably a mix of both--people who are essentially scared off by the concept of joining the military, as well as those who join and then realize that it's not what they had in mind.

 

[graduatingsoon]

I'd agree, and say it's probably a mix of both--people who are essentially scared off by the concept of joining the military, as well as those who join and then realize that it's not what they had in mind.

The field is 85% female. The typical psychology graduate these days is a 30 something female. The military is not a good fit for most women, especially given the ridiculously high rates of sexual harassment that seem pretty routine. I worked with female officers in the military and the culture is pretty bad for women.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The field is 85% female. The typical psychology graduate these days is a 30 something female. The military is not a good fit for most women, especially given the ridiculously high rates of sexual harassment that seem pretty routine. I worked with female officers in the military and the culture is pretty bad for women.

I believe 85% may be a bit of an overestimate, but yes, I can also see how sex/gender would play roles in decisions to pursue military careers. Although interestingly enough, of the people I know considering such a path, it's a pretty even split (I of course realize this doesn't generalize very far).

 

[graduatingsoon]

I'd agree, and say it's probably a mix of both--people who are essentially scared off by the concept of joining the military, as well as those who join and then realize that it's not what they had in mind.

The military is also a very structured, hierarchical, and rigid organization. I think clinical psychologists are more independent minded, dislike authority, probably don't trust the government much. Plus, we are fairly liberal as a whole. I worked with military personnel and you have to be okay with following strict rules and not having much autonomy.

 

[GottaGetDone]

1) Start putting feelers out for additional gigs on campus as a TA or research assistant, including in other departments. I managed to make an extra $3000 in one year by finding something extra each semester, including during both summer sessions.
2) Does the program allow you to have additional employment? Granted, it'll be tough, but I have a friend who waited tables at a high end restaurant during grad school... she made more on the weekends there than she did from her graduate assistantships...

 

[SpiceyT]

Sorry, that was ambiguous. The HPSP program guarantees internship at one of five military sites, then you go on to your military career. Direct Commissioning offers many of the same benefits of military service, but does not get you your internship. Either route requires an internship, as per APA requirements.

Sorry for the confusion.

The HPSP program does NOT guarantee you a position at one of the five AMEDD sites. I have met many HPSP folks who have not matched in their first year applying and had to reapply for internship the following year. Even with the military, there are more applicants than spots.

 

[cara susanna]

Ugh, that's depressing.