Cost of living in Europe VS. USA

[deleted390966]

Can anybody chime in about the cost of living in EU countries VS. the USA? It intrigues me because I've heard from my acquaintances that physicians in the EU make only ~70,000 euro/year but they can afford, for example, houses that are two to three times as big as a house that costs $350k in the US. I know they don't have student loans like we do in the US but still, it makes me think that the cost of living in the EU is way less expensive than in the US... or am I wrong about the numbers? Hope to learn the facts from you!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[escapelle]

Oh yes, you got the numbers right. It is very expensive to live in Europe, especially in some parts like the Balkans where I am from. Here is almost impossible to afford a house like that for whole working period in life, so...sad but true.

 

[RangerBob]

I think in general European cities are more expensive than American cities when it comes to cost of living. I don't know about the cost if you're out in the country though. I think it depends on what markets you're comparing--are you comparing the cost of a home in NYC or SF to the middle of nowhere in Eastern Europe, or are you comparing Omaha to Paris/Stockholm/Berlin/etc? I know here in the US, I can buy a home where I am in the midwest (not Chicago, but still a good sized metropolitan area) for about a fourth to a fifth the cost of a comparable home in the SF Bay Area.

As far as students in the EU--they're not necessarily debt free. There was a recent article/study on Sweeden that mentioned their students borrow on average about a third as much as US students (despite tuition being free in Sweeden), which was a problem considering their cost of living was higher than in the US and their expected earnings were quite a bit lower (even before their extremely high tax rate--out there they "work Monday through Thursday afternoon for the government coffers and the other day and a half for themselves"). That was a surprise to me because I always thought most Europeans (especially in Scandinavia) graduated without any debt of any kind. Still, they do have a remarkable quality of life (unless you're an immigrant)

 

[deleted390966]

Your post is intriguing: If their cost of living is more expensive than the US AND their earning is lower, how do they manage to have a great quality of life? Of course I'm only comparing comparable cities (I'm not comparing NYC to a rural village in Europe, for example).

About student debts, I find that most EU universities cost little to nothing (if anything, they cost up to $1000/year - except the UK, which is almost as expensive as the US)...

 

[TexasPhysician]

EU in desirable countries has a higher cost of living.

 

[RangerBob]

Your post is intriguing: If their cost of living is more expensive than the US AND their earning is lower, how do they manage to have a great quality of life? Of course I'm only comparing comparable cities (I'm not comparing NYC to a rural village in Europe, for example).

About student debts, I find that most EU universities cost little to nothing (if anything, they cost up to $1000/year - except the UK, which is almost as expensive as the US)...

Taxes, and all the government-paid benefits that those bring (Scandinavian countries are the perfect examples of "welfare states"). As a whole, many European societies have decided to distribute their wealth around much more equally. There are obviously pros and cons to this.

In general, if you are lazy, you will have a better qualify of life in socialist European countries. But if you're hard working there's little incentive to work hard and accumulate wealth only to fork most over to the government/everyone else, which is why people with a more entrepreneurial spirit will have a better quality of life in the US (maybe not better qualify of life necessarily, but more money and in theory a better opportunity for a better quality of life). It's all relative--I don't think either system is inherently better--some are better for certain populations (Scandinavia is very homogenous--and they will admit quite boring...) and others better for other populations.

The issue is some European countries go a little too far and essentially incentivize laziness. Greece would be a prime example--sure, they had a great quality of life, but is it sustainable? I don't think the younger generation in Greece will have much quality of life burdened by all the debt of their parents/grandparents. The US maybe goes too far in the other direction--we all know how unequal society here is.

Personally, I don't see the point of accumulating massive amounts of wealth. I think the goal in life is to learn to be happy with what you have, and make your society better. I think Europeans generally have the better mindset when it comes to their focus on enjoying life. Earn enough to live on and have your needs and most of your wants met, and you'll be happy. If the same can be said for most of your countrymen, then you have a rather pleasant and "rich" society, in my opinion. Making that concept sustainable is pretty tough--without the oil wealth I doubt Scandinavia could do it.

I think if you mix the American mentality of hard work (which isn't quite the same mentality as it was in the past--but it's still better than in most other countries) with the European focus on quality of life and not just accumulation of wealth, you'd get quite a nice society. Maybe it wouldn't be a world power, but it'd be one where most people are quite happy with their lives and feel like their hard work still pays off, but that there's a better safety net for those who need it (obviously a delicate and debatable topic...)

Maybe Canada, eh?

 

[solitarius]

On balance, I'd still take the USA over Europe any day.

It's hard to categorize Europe as one entity as there are really many distinct sub-cultures. Unless you want to move to a potentially unstable country, I think the only viable countries are the UK, Germanic, or northern European countries.

How many people have real exposure with Scandinavian culture? Socialism works there because the population size is manageable, the people are socialized to share with the greater whole, and there existed a groupthink conformist culture long predating socialism. Scandinavians keep close social circles, which makes their society incredibly anti-social and boring. The extent to which the government and community there plans people's overall lives is immense, and the extent to which they educate and socialize their citizens into a dominant ideology from which no dissent is even tolerated borders on a new age totalitarianism. I'd be willing to bet Germany isn't to far off from this either.

Individuality is frowned upon there, and quips about personal freedom/prerogative are universally scorned. Even acting differently or voicing your disagreement will get you weird stares. That's a tough adjustment for any born-and-bred American. It's probably easier for Europeans to immigrate to America than vice-versa given that Americans are more social, more accepting of foreigners, and more tolerant of differences.

 

[boanssi]

Cost of living is obviously higher in the US. Let me give you something to think about:

- How much does it cost to attain an university degree? In most European countries tuition is either free (Scandinavian countries) or costs no more than 1000 euros/year. I'll finish med school in two years with zero debt. How many of you can say the same?
- Americans, as everyone knows, spend way more than any European citizen on healthcare. For instance, a trip to the ER is either free or very cheap (<50 euros) in most places in Europe, whereas in the US the same may cost several hundred dollars, because americans physicians order too many diagnostic exams and bill you for everything. And no, health outcomes in the US ARE NOT better than those in Europe.
- How many vacations days do Americans have? What about parental leave? Sick leave?

I could go on.

And the individualty/opression argument the above user stated is pure bull****.


5th year med student in Europe.

 

[RangerBob]

Tuition is in fact free in Scandinavian countries, but most Scandinavian students borrow money for living expenses. I read in a recent new article (NOT Fox news, but feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong) they actually average about a third of the debt as US students. But one thing to consider is US salaries are higher on average, and taxes much lower.

Personally I'd actually prefer to start my life with less money owed even if it meant less profit later in life, so I don't actually think that's a bad thing, but you can't quite say tuition is actually free--someone's paying for it (society, oil money, etc.)

Cost of living is sort of relative. If you're middle-class or wealthy you're likely better off in the US, financially-speaking, because you give less money to the government and most US cities are more affordable than European ones. If you're poor you're probably much better off in Europe because most Western European countries have better social safety nets. Unless you're an immigrant--while there's still quite a bit of tension between ethnic groups in the US, it's worse in Europe (especially Scandinavia). One of my friends from college is Asian and was born/raised in France and the French gave her and her sister a really hard time. Everyone just assumed they were Chinese even though anyone with any knowledge of Asian races could clearly tell they were Southeast Asian. If you're Arab and/or Muslim then you're really considered an outsider. The English tended to be the most open-minded towards other cultures in their experience. Scandinavia was probably the worst for them--but honestly that's also to be expected in such a small and homogenous culture. If you go to the mountains of Idaho you'll experience fairly similar mentalities towards "outsiders."

I won't disagree about the cost of healthcare here, vacation days, leave, etc. We already know most of Western Europe does much better in all those areas--Europeans have decided they're willing to pay taxes for those things for the common social good. In the US we are far more individualistic and fairly resistant towards raising taxes and expanding social welfare programs/benefits. We generally believe we should keep most of what we earn. It's not exactly the most Christian/charitable of philosophies (there's some irony here considering how religious the US is and how non-religious Europe is), but it's just the general mindset of Americans.

And we never claimed health outcomes were better over here--it's fairly common knowledge they're comparable. We're working on those issues, sort of. But the healthcare system we have is the one we have--we're trying to make it better (though we can't agree how), and until then we will keep treating all our patients as best as we can.

 

[deleted390966]

AFAIK, dorm and housing in EU cost only 1/3 of what it costs in the US. My friend in Vienna (a big metro) only pays €300/month for his dorm room; another friend in France pays €190/month for hers, while in the US, we pay $700+ in an average city.

Yes, taxes are lower in the US. However, Americans have to pay for healthcare insurance and student loan debt of $100k+ (with federal interest rate of ~7% or higher for private loan!), which limit our living quality substantially.

PS: Luckily I "only" have ~$16,000 from undergrad due to scholarship, or else I would have had 10x that amount for an UNDERGRAD education.

 

[RangerBob]

AFAIK, dorm and housing in EU cost only 1/3 of what it costs in the US. My friend in Vienna only pays €300/month for his dorm room; another friend in France pays €190/month for hers, while in the US, we pay $700+.

Yes, taxes are lower in the US. However, Americans have to pay for healthcare insurance and student loan debt of $100k+ (with federal interest rate of ~7% or higher for private loan!), which limit our living quality substantially.

I can't argue with that. I wish I only had $100k in loans. And unfortunately how much our debt impacts our quality of life is generally not something that really hits us until after we've borrowed all the money and start repayment. Then we realize how much more effort we should've put into going to an in-state school, keeping our living expenses down, and/or getting a degree in a field that will actually give you a decent salary. But none of those are things the average senior in high school thinks about. Or even the average college student when they are applying to medicals school. I think the US does its students a great disservice by saddling us with debt at the start of our lives. My dad went to a state school and worked in the summer and a little bit during the school year and he paid all his expenses that way. There'd be almost no way to do that currently, unless you held a full-time job during the school year.

Still, like I said before--we're stuck with the current system until we change it. Eventually student loans will be a big enough hot-button issue that both parties will have to address it because we'll be a big enough voting-block. It's clearly a topic that needs addressing--we're all in debt, and tuition is even more unaffordable. It's clearly not sustainable (not unlike our healthcare system).

 

[deleted390966]

Nah, nobody is even acknowledging the "student loan bubble" so the situation is unlikely to change in the near future: http://goo.gl/OM4t3P
And there is too big of a consequence of defaulting on your student loan so nobody is going to "protest" that way, either.

 

[RangerBob]

Nah, nobody is even acknowledging the "student loan bubble" so the situation is unlikely to change in the near future: http://goo.gl/OM4t3P
And there is too big of a consequence of defaulting on your student loan so nobody is going to "protest" that way, either.

True--but I think at some point in the next 10-30 years our financial aid system will be forced to be revamped somehow. I highly doubt the student loan bubble will prompt any action for at least 10-15 years. But it'll happen at some point--whether it benefits us (or anyone) will have to be seen at that point. Though I'd wager no one will benefit...

 

[LADoc00]

Pay for physicians in general across the EU is crap but you still might pull down a living wage in some of the countries, especially with a sweetheart gig, which as a foreigner is simply out of the question. This is also followed up by a generally much higher cost of living aside from some notable exceptions (former Eastern Europe/Spain/Portugal).

If you absolutely have to live in the EU and practice medicine, count on a relatively frugal lifestyle with a spouse who also works. Simply put, you WILL have a lower standard of living.

I have several friends in Europe from my grad school days and their pay levels range IMMENSELY. A very small number make 400,000 Euros/yr while other make less than 80,000 Euros....same specialty too! Really bonkers, but in my field that is case in the States as well!

 

[Mad Jack]

Your post is intriguing: If their cost of living is more expensive than the US AND their earning is lower, how do they manage to have a great quality of life? Of course I'm only comparing comparable cities (I'm not comparing NYC to a rural village in Europe, for example).

About student debts, I find that most EU universities cost little to nothing (if anything, they cost up to $1000/year - except the UK, which is almost as expensive as the US)...

Most housing in the EU is substantially more expensive than in the United States, for substantially smaller properties. They also have far less friendly terms for mortgages, requiring down payments that, in some countries, are up to half the cost of the house you want to buy. Physicians don't have a quality of life that is comparable to their American counterparts from a consumerist standpoint, but they tend to be happier due to lower working hours, greater protections afforded to them by the government in the form of malpractice etc, and far better benefits such as time off and retirement that are provided by the government. This varies greatly by country though.

 

[doc05]

Americans are more social, more accepting of foreigners, and more tolerant of differences.

sorry, I had to laugh when I read that.