Could a general dentist make the most?

[KlingonDentist]

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How Star Trek of you to be catastrophizing the health care bill...

I love Star Trek! It makes me feel good about humanity and the goal for a utopian society. Warm fuzzy feeling...

Until I woke up from my dream...everybody likes to feel happy right, once in a while.
But getting back to the real world...people need to wake up... have you?

 

[charlestweed]

What I am saying is I know plenty OMFS, perio, and endo specialists pulling down PPO fees, which are far less than you are fronting in your post. Not every specialist is living the dream, and lots of GP's are pulling in plenty. So in essence, the average income for any dentist is strictly what the individual strives to make. Intelligent business people will always do well.
Also, I would not give to much credence to any studies listing the average income of dentists. No one I know would answer these questionnaires.

Even with the fees far less (ie 50% less) than the ones I posted above, the specialists still make more per day than the GPs. The specialists can book as many patients in one day as they wish and stay home the other days….very efficient. Why treat 5 implant patients in 5 different days when you can see all of them in 1 day? The GPs, on the other hand, have to be at their office 8 hours/day, 5days/week to treat walk-ins, emergency etc. Since the specialists work fewer hours and fewer days, they have extra time to either stay home with their kids or open up another satellite office or work at different offices as associates.

My ortho fees are a lot lower than the national average….even lower than the ortho fees at Loma Linda/ USC/ UCLA ortho dept. My take home income at my private practices is still 3 times higher than my ortho associate salary at Newport Dental.

 

[btpayne13]

This is a bit off topic, but it has to do with the issue of more time spent in school for oral surgeons. I did some researching, and there's a doctor in my area that did 18 years of school after high school (including undergrad, dental school, OMFS residency, med school, general surgery residency, plastic surgery residency, and craniofacial and pediatric plastic surgery fellowship - HOLY CRAP). Isn't that overkill? Unless that's what you really want to do, that seems like way too much time in school. Would I be right in assuming that this much schooling would have you making less than a general dentist or OMFS?

Anyone?

 

[HuyetKiem]

The GPs, on the other hand, have to be at their office 8 hours/day, 5days/week to treat walk-ins, emergency etc. Since the specialists work fewer hours and fewer days, they have extra time to either stay home with their kids or open up another satellite office or work at different offices as associates.

.

Not if you have associate(s). I'm currently working only 3 days doing ortho exclusively and other 3 days on my real estate business or chilling out. My 3 other associates will take care all other GP works. Dentistry is my fifth career change and has been the best one so far in term of freedom and financial rewards.

 

[DrReo]

Not if you have associate(s). I'm currently working only 3 days doing ortho exclusively and other 3 days on my real estate business or chilling out. My 3 other associates will take care all other GP works. Dentistry is my fifth career change and has been the best one so far in term of freedom and financial rewards.

What ortho CE classes did you take while you were in DS? What ones when you left?

How did you finance a place like that? How many of your other classmates went out to purchase a group practice? What would you recommend for someone graduating deciding to follow in similar foot steps.

Thank you for your time!

 

[charlestweed]

Not if you have associate(s). I'm currently working only 3 days doing ortho exclusively and other 3 days on my real estate business or chilling out. My 3 other associates will take care all other GP works. Dentistry is my fifth career change and has been the best one so far in term of freedom and financial rewards.

True, but…..How much do pay your associate dentists? $500-600/day? For specialists, they only need 1 or 2 part time assistants. Low overhead is key. There are no lab fees for OS, perio and endo. Most ortho appliances can be made in house.

 

[HuyetKiem]

What ortho CE classes did you take while you were in DS? What ones when you left?

How did you finance a place like that? How many of your other classmates went out to purchase a group practice? What would you recommend for someone graduating deciding to follow in similar foot steps.

Thank you for your time!

I've started taking some of Dr. Rondeau seminars at the end of my 3rd yr and my 2 yrs with Academy of GP ortho in my 4th. Since graduated, I've taken several courses with Dynaflex's ed seminars, dr Dr. Gerry Samson's and few others. I have around 230 ortho CE credit hrs under my belt. I'm planning to take more advanced courses with Dr. Rondeau, Dr. Samson and some other comprehensive programs offered by the American Orthodontic Society this year and few next coming years. Regular reader of AJODO and JCO journals on my free time. I had learned lots from many awesome ortho instructors and residents during my time at Case. I was indebted to them for their help and guidance.

I have my brother help me out of purchasing the practice. He took out his home equity loan, my mom and I put our houses down as a colateral in order to get a loan from BofA. 5 or 6 of my classmates purchased a practice right after school. It was a best move for all of us.

 

[HuyetKiem]

True, but…..How much do pay your associate dentists? $500-600/day? For specialists, they only need 1 or 2 part time assistants. Low overhead is key. There are no lab fees for OS, perio and endo. Most ortho appliances can be made in house.

I'm paying them 35% of their production. I have a lab tech doing most of my fixed and removable appliances in house. I send out only to Dynaflex for their patented appliances. I just finished reading the article about The Orthodontic Sports Protection Appliance from JCO jan '10 issue. My lab tech can start fabricate them this coming week.

 

[jvanewportnews]

I've started taking some of Dr. Rondeau seminars at the end of my 3rd yr and my 2 yrs with Academy of GP ortho in my 4th. Since graduated, I've taken several courses with Dynaflex's ed seminars, dr Dr. Gerry Samson's and few others. I have around 230 ortho CE credit hrs under my belt. I'm planning to take more advanced courses with Dr. Rondeau, Dr. Samson and some other comprehensive programs offered by the American Orthodontic Society this year and few next coming years. Regular reader of AJODO and JCO journals on my free time. I had learned lots from many awesome ortho instructors and residents during my time at Case. I was indebted to them for their help and guidance.

I have my brother help me out of purchasing the practice. He took out his home equity loan, my mom and I put our houses down as a colateral in order to get a loan from BofA. 5 or 6 of my classmates purchased a practice right after school. It was a best move for all of us.

Isn't that a bit risky?

 

[HuyetKiem]

Isn't that a bit risky?

It is true. There is risk on every business decision. So glad that my family members have backed me up on every step.

 

[jvanewportnews]

It is true. There is risk on every business decision. So glad that my family members have backed me up on every step.

Yes that is very nice, and I'd hope my family would do the same.
If you don't mind me asking, how do you find enough patients to have a steady income when you start a practice from scratch or does it take months to get a steady client base?

 

[HuyetKiem]

Yes that is very nice, and I'd hope my family would do the same.
If you don't mind me asking, how do you find enough patients to have a steady income when you start a practice from scratch or does it take months to get a steady client base?

Right after taking over an existing office, I immediately terminated more than half of its undesired patients and implemented my marketing strategies which includes internal ad, billboard advertisements, community outreach programs (eg. dental hygiene presentations at local schools, voluntereering at community festivals/healthfairs...), door-to-door marketing and newspaper advertisements.

 

[coolfez]

This is a very interesting thread!

Also I was thinking, since a specialist have a lot more time off, why can't they work as an associate for another office or moonlight on the days when they don't have a lot of appointments?

Also, with all the free time, they can do other business ventures such as real estate, or teach at a college part time?

Time is money.

 

[Guy Smiley]

This is a very interesting thread!

Also I was thinking, since a specialist have a lot more time off, why can't they work as an associate for another office or moonlight on the days when they don't have a lot of appointments?

Also, with all the free time, they can do other business ventures such as real estate, or teach at a college part time?

Time is money.

Time might be money, but teaching part time at college is not.

 

[eventualOMFS]

A decent OMFS is going to make MUCH more money than a decent GP. Sure, the MOST SUCCESSFUL GP will make more money than the LEAST SUCCESSFUL OMFS. But as a rule, the OMFS will make much more money in his lifetime - even factoring in the opportunity cost of residency.

I'm curious as to how everyone has this idea that an established oral surgeon can only book enough patients to work 3 days/wk. Did you guys shadow or work with oral surgeons for which this was true?

I worked for ~4 years (during undergrad breaks) with an oral surgery practice. It was first a big 6 surgeon practice (4 partners, 2 associates) - the practice dissolved, some docs formed another group practice and one decided to fly solo. I worked with the 6 doc practice and later with the solo doc.

As a big practice, they did great, never had a problem booking patients. The surgeon who decided to go solo is doing great - busier than ever. All of the docs have always worked about 36 hrs/wk. Heavy on 3rds exos and placing implants.

Don't remember all the details from the big practice, but the solo surgeon will routinely exo 4-6 sets of 3rds under GA and place 2 implants in any given morning, then do emergencies and single LA exos in the afternoon. He is very skilled and does very well for himself, but I don't look at him as an exception to the rule - all of the OMFS in the area are big-money successful.

So again, what is prompting this idea that OS don't have enough pts? Are you talking about Southern Cal or Hawaii or Florida OMFS? While some OS is elective, much/most is not - so it's not like the economy is killing them. People are going to have their wizzies yanked regardless.

To finish my rant....ArmorShell is right. Everyone thinks they're going to be the Gordon Gecko of dentists. And it seems some priorities are misplaced here. BTPayne13, the person who started the thread, is making all of these arguments but doesn't even know what a GP is? C'mon.

To be fair, I was just as ignorant as anyone coming into dental school. Heck, my username is EventualOMFS, and I don't even know if I'll pursue oral surgery anymore, much less have a shot at getting accepted to a residency. Dental school is a humbling experience for many students...so focus on the important stuff (like knowing what a GP is....) and don't ever assume that you will be a top-1% outlier in the profession. Rant complete, back to studying.

 

[btpayne13]

BTPayne13, the person who started the thread, is making all of these arguments but doesn't even know what a GP is? C'mon.

...so focus on the important stuff (like knowing what a GP is....)

Get off my jock. I'm just a high school sophomore.

 

[dmoney2010]

Get off my jock. I'm just a high school sophomore.

I think the point that eventualOMFS was making is that you are worrying way too much about things that honestly don't make the slightest bit of difference to you as of now. If you are a high school sophomore then you should be worrying about what college you might be interested in attending. Then once you get into college you should worry about getting really good grades, getting some EC's and enjoying yourself. IF you figure out that you can succeed enough in college to be granted admission to dental school then you should focus on the DAT and schools to apply to. Then after dental school starts you should worry about getting the most out of school that you can. Then and only then should you be spending a serious amount of time considering whether you feel like going into a specialty is the right thing for you. Take this from my experience thus far... I thought high school was a joke, minimal effort was put in and I easily got A's, like 3.8 cGPA. Then I started college, it was surprising how much more difficult it was but I put my head down, took 18-19 credits a semester and will be graduating with a 3.8 ish cGPA. I havent even started dental school yet but I realize that I will be competing with all the other kids that played the same game I did in college and won. I figure Ill work my butt off and try and get to the point that I feel like I can get into a specialty program IF I feel like that is the right choice for me in the future and IF Im even smart enough to do so.
END POINT
worry about things that are important to worry about at your stage in this process. ALL practicing dentists make good money as long as they are competent. Do what suits you as a person, not what suits your wallet

 

[NonTradHopeful]

I think the point that eventualOMFS was making is that you are worrying way too much about things that honestly don't make the slightest bit of difference to you as of now. If you are a high school sophomore then you should be worrying about what college you might be interested in attending. Then once you get into college you should worry about getting really good grades, getting some EC's and enjoying yourself. IF you figure out that you can succeed enough in college to be granted admission to dental school then you should focus on the DAT and schools to apply to. Then after dental school starts you should worry about getting the most out of school that you can. Then and only then should you be spending a serious amount of time considering whether you feel like going into a specialty is the right thing for you. Take this from my experience thus far... I thought high school was a joke, minimal effort was put in and I easily got A's, like 3.8 cGPA. Then I started college, it was surprising how much more difficult it was but I put my head down, took 18-19 credits a semester and will be graduating with a 3.8 ish cGPA. I havent even started dental school yet but I realize that I will be competing with all the other kids that played the same game I did in college and won. I figure Ill work my butt off and try and get to the point that I feel like I can get into a specialty program IF I feel like that is the right choice for me in the future and IF Im even smart enough to do so.
END POINT
worry about things that are important to worry about at your stage in this process. ALL practicing dentists make good money as long as they are competent. Do what suits you as a person, not what suits your wallet

This is excellent advice for the younger people on this forum. Well said...