The Financial Argument For General Dentistry

[Thehighwind87]

I agree that time is both good for money growth (opportunity costs) and bad for family dynamics especially for women. I've been acquainted with a few women over 40 who are hoping to start families. We all have our individual needs, passions, and ambitions. I teach my kids that money can buy choices and the more money you have, the more choices. I choose not to be a slave to money. I had a difficult relationship with my dad. He and his best friend both physicians worship money trying to impress others, etc. I can understand their perspective. In Asian, if you have no money, you're looked down upon. That is why many Asians and other similar minded immigrants in the US strive to drive fancy cars and live in fancy homes. I know I'm in the top 5% but not top 1%. We still live like we're in the bottom 50% utilizing coupons, discounts, clearance sales, and if being in the top 5% is not enough, then we're too spoiled. IMO, it is very difficult for the average young generation to reach the top 5%.



I try not to talk to OMFS outside of dentistry. For me, they seem to look down on GPs.


Where I'm located in the West Coast (PNW), it is very difficult for GPs and specialists to make good income. The exception is OMFS where there is a statewide shortage (not enough people want to commit 4 or 6 yrs). My favorite periodontist decided to quit her private practice of 15 yrs and work for a DSO. My personal GP dentist couldn't pay himself for the first 2 months after he moved to a cheaper location last fall. I will assume less expensive areas in the Midwest, the Plains and the South may have more dentist friendly income. In my area, many people are struggling to pay their living exp. My wf wants us to move out of the area (to a more expensive Asian one).

Ever thought about moving out of the US? I'm planning on potentially retiring in 5 or so years. Move the kids to singapore, and raise them there. I feel like the quality of education is much better, and it's much safer. USA is a rat race man. Always struggling to make money to...make more money to pay more...stuff...

Eventually enough is enough. Cash out, live in asia- cheaply, raise the kids, and have a good safe environment. Wife and I are really thinking about doing it- if we have enough money to survive on- which IMO, we should.

The only issue would be maybe boredom? Going from working- to not working maybe hard. But I do know american dentists that have worked in singapore, and my wife could work remote. Work at that point- wouldn't be for money- but rather fulfillment/routine. We would have enough money from practice sale/house sale/investments.

We have extended family living in singapore, and I have one friend that moved out there. IMO, the quality of life is much better.

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[Molar Whisperer]

Ever thought about moving out of the US? I'm planning on potentially retiring in 5 or so years. Move the kids to singapore, and raise them there. I feel like the quality of education is much better, and it's much safer. USA is a rat race man. Always struggling to make money to...make more money to pay more...stuff...

Eventually enough is enough. Cash out, live in asia- cheaply, raise the kids, and have a good safe environment. Wife and I are really thinking about doing it- if we have enough money to survive on- which IMO, we should.

The only issue would be maybe boredom? Going from working- to not working maybe hard. But I do know american dentists that have worked in singapore, and my wife could work remote. Work at that point- wouldn't be for money- but rather fulfillment/routine. We would have enough money from practice sale/house sale/investments.

We have extended family living in singapore, and I have one friend that moved out there. IMO, the quality of life is much better.

Moving to Asia may be a necessity for us. Wife still have her parents home in Taiwan after their passing. My kids go there every summer. The COL is way cheaper but salaries are also less and jobs are harder to find....lots of younger gen unemployment. Asian kids will blow most American kids away with their superior academic backgrounds. My Brother in law's kids were constantly studying in Taiwan while my kids are playing video games. Asia will overtake the typical American schooled work force.

Do you get bored on Saturdays? In Asia, businesses and amenities don't close like here. Many work/open 7 days/wk. There are so much to do in Asia unless you have small niche hobbies like surfing.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Moving to Asia may be a necessity for us. Wife still have her parents home in Taiwan after their passing. My kids go there every summer. The COL is way cheaper but salaries are also less and jobs are harder to find....lots of younger gen unemployment. Asian kids will blow most American kids away with their superior academic backgrounds. My Brother in law's kids were constantly studying in Taiwan while my kids are playing video games. Asia will overtake the typical American schooled work force.

Do you get bored on Saturdays? In Asia, businesses and amenities don't close like here. Many work/open 7 days/wk. There are so much to do in Asia unless you have small niche hobbies like surfing.

Well... if you move back- hopefully you are moving back with a few million in the bank accounts. I wouldn't go back with not enough.

And yes the asian quality of education is far better, and a reason why I want to send my kids back.

Saturdays- I either bike swim run play tennis etc. I have alot of hobbies. Asia is awesome in a sense you can feel safe, get a good education, eat cheap hawker food, and your money goes far. It IS A PRESSURE COOKER for alot of people though...and it is "congested." So yes its a give and take. But america? 20$ for fast food today...running the rat race...going to costco....driving everywhere...it ain't really living. It's just "surviving."

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Well... if you move back- hopefully you are moving back with a few million in the bank accounts. I wouldn't go back with not enough.

And yes the asian quality of education is far better, and a reason why I want to send my kids back.

Saturdays- I either bike swim run play tennis etc. I have alot of hobbies. Asia is awesome in a sense you can feel safe, get a good education, eat cheap hawker food, and your money goes far. It IS A PRESSURE COOKER for alot of people though...and it is "congested." So yes its a give and take. But america? 20$ for fast food today...running the rat race...going to costco....driving everywhere...it ain't really living. It's just "surviving."

I agree. My wf wants to go back to Asia. I grew up here and it is hard for me in Asia...too humid, too much people, language barrier, etc. I'm concerned my kids will not make it there. That is why many Asian parents want to send their kids here (grass is always greener on the other side of the pond)...I can't even do 5th grade Singapore Math. It's very hard to find jobs in Asia. There are a lot of unemployment for young people. I'm reading Chinese migrants coming up from Mexico to find jobs.

 

[LFA20]

Ever thought about moving out of the US? I'm planning on potentially retiring in 5 or so years. Move the kids to singapore, and raise them there. I feel like the quality of education is much better, and it's much safer. USA is a rat race man. Always struggling to make money to...make more money to pay more...stuff...

Eventually enough is enough. Cash out, live in asia- cheaply, raise the kids, and have a good safe environment. Wife and I are really thinking about doing it- if we have enough money to survive on- which IMO, we should.

The only issue would be maybe boredom? Going from working- to not working maybe hard. But I do know american dentists that have worked in singapore, and my wife could work remote. Work at that point- wouldn't be for money- but rather fulfillment/routine. We would have enough money from practice sale/house sale/investments.

We have extended family living in singapore, and I have one friend that moved out there. IMO, the quality of life is much better.

Singapore is great but their education system is ultra competitive. It’s also one of the most expensive countries to live in the world. IMO the US is way better for education since you don’t have to be super smart or attend the best universities to succeed and make decent income.

I agree with the safety aspect though and obviously it’s much better place to live in for Asians lol..

 

[D1Bound]

Moving to Asia may be a necessity for us. Wife still have her parents home in Taiwan after their passing. My kids go there every summer. The COL is way cheaper but salaries are also less and jobs are harder to find....lots of younger gen unemployment. Asian kids will blow most American kids away with their superior academic backgrounds. My Brother in law's kids were constantly studying in Taiwan while my kids are playing video games. Asia will overtake the typical American schooled work force.

Do you get bored on Saturdays? In Asia, businesses and amenities don't close like here. Many work/open 7 days/wk. There are so much to do in Asia unless you have small niche hobbies like surfing.

Taiwan is going to get "blown away," why do you want to go there?

 

[charlestweed]

I agree. My wf wants to go back to Asia. I grew up here and it is hard for me in Asia...too humid, too much people, language barrier, etc. I'm concerned my kids will not make it there. That is why many Asian parents want to send their kids here (grass is always greener on the other side of the pond)...I can't even do 5th grade Singapore Math. It's very hard to find jobs in Asia. There are a lot of unemployment for young people. I'm reading Chinese migrants coming up from Mexico to find jobs.

Please don’t ever move back. America is the land of opportunities period. I love your 4-car garage house. America’s K-12 quality of education may be inferior to other nations. But college is where the serious learning begins. College application process helps filter out the people who don’t want to go to school. There has to be a reason why people from all over the world want to come here for their college education. America wouldn’t be the world’s #1 superpower, if it had an inferior educational system. It’s a good thing that American high schools are not too competitive and difficult like in other Asian countries (including my birth country)…..so the latecomers like myself, who didn’t speak any English, had much easier time to get adjusted to the American schooling and the American way of life.

My co-resident (he’s a year below me) was born in Taiwan but he went to schools in England at a very young age so his English is perfect. His dad, who was a college professor in Taiwan, did a lot of research before he sent my friend and his siblings to study oversea. And his dad picked Australia and England because he deemed these 2 countries were clean and safe for my friend and his siblings. After earning his dental degree, my friend went to the US for his ortho training at our program. And this was when my friend realized America was truly the land of opportunities for him. After graduation, he didn’t go back to England. He moved to Washington and set up shop there. He now has like 6-7 offices. Since you are in the area, you may know who he is. This is his website: Yeh Orthodontics – Crafting beautiful smiles for all ages in the Pacific Northwest

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Taiwan is going to get "blown away," why do you want to go there?

You're absolutely right. It can get invaded at anytime. My wf is a die hard Taiwanese and is not scared...she thinks the US will protect Taiwan but it will be another Ukraine.

Please don’t ever move back. America is the land of opportunities period. I love your 4-car garage house. America’s K-12 quality of education may be inferior to other nations. But college is where the serious learning begins. College application process helps filter out the people who don’t want to go to school. There has to be a reason why people from all over the world want to come here for their college education. America wouldn’t be the world’s #1 superpower, if it had an inferior educational system. It’s a good thing that American high schools are not too competitive and difficult like in other Asian countries (including my birth country)…..so the latecomers like myself, who didn’t speak any English, had much easier time to get adjusted to the American schooling and the American way of life.

My co-resident (he’s a year below me) was born in Taiwan but he went to schools in England at a very young age so his English is perfect. His dad, who was a college professor in Taiwan, did a lot of research before he sent my friend and his siblings to study oversea. And his dad picked Australia and England because he deemed these 2 countries were clean and safe for my friend and his siblings. After earning his dental degree, my friend went to the US for his ortho training at our program. And this was when my friend realized America was truly the land of opportunities for him. After graduation, he didn’t go back to England. He moved to Washington and set up shop there. He now has like 6-7 offices. Since you are in the area, you may know who he is. This is his website: Yeh Orthodontics – Crafting beautiful smiles for all ages in the Pacific Northwest

You are right about the land of opportunity. In Asia, there are a lot of youth unemployment. It's too bad they go thru a lot of difficult schooling to be jobless. The COL in Asia is less but with fewer jobs. The jobs here are more plentiful but one can't afford a house, health ins, and student loans. Pick your poison.

 

[charlestweed]

You are right about the land of opportunity. In Asia, there are a lot of youth unemployment. It's too bad they go thru a lot of difficult schooling to be jobless. The COL in Asia is less but with fewer jobs. The jobs here are more plentiful but one can't afford a house, health ins, and student loans. Pick your poison.

I know it's pretty tough for the younger generation. Hopefully the great wealth transfer from the Boomers to the millenials in the near future will help ease some these problems for the younger generation. The Great Wealth Transfer From Baby Boomers To Millennials Will Impact The Job Market And Economy

 

[Thehighwind87]

I agree. My wf wants to go back to Asia. I grew up here and it is hard for me in Asia...too humid, too much people, language barrier, etc. I'm concerned my kids will not make it there. That is why many Asian parents want to send their kids here (grass is always greener on the other side of the pond)...I can't even do 5th grade Singapore Math. It's very hard to find jobs in Asia. There are a lot of unemployment for young people. I'm reading Chinese migrants coming up from Mexico to find jobs.

The plan would be singapore schooling- american university.

While retiring with decent savings in Asia.

Best of both worlds.

 

[AONLINE]

Where I'm located in the West Coast (PNW), it is very difficult for GPs and specialists to make good income. The exception is OMFS where there is a statewide shortage (not enough people want to commit 4 or 6 yrs). My favorite periodontist decided to quit her private practice of 15 yrs and work for a DSO. My personal GP dentist couldn't pay himself for the first 2 months after he moved to a cheaper location last fall. I will assume less expensive areas in the Midwest, the Plains and the South may have more dentist friendly income. In my area, many people are struggling to pay their living exp. My wf wants us to move out of the area (to a more expensive Asian one).

Thank you for sharing. I'm assuming you're living in either Washington or Oregon? What would you consider a good, livable income for a GP in your area? In 2023 the average associate GP income across the US is $215k, is that a livable income for the PNW area?

 

[Thehighwind87]

Thank you for sharing. I'm assuming you're living in either Washington or Oregon? What would you consider a good, livable income for a GP in your area? In 2023 the average associate GP income across the US is $215k, is that a livable income for the PNW area?

Average associate GP income? 215k? Eh...I find that hard to believe. Didn't the ADA come out and say its like 180k or even less than that?

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Thank you for sharing. I'm assuming you're living in either Washington or Oregon? What would you consider a good, livable income for a GP in your area? In 2023 the average associate GP income across the US is $215k, is that a livable income for the PNW area?

I'm licensed in both states. Livable income will vary depending on the area and your situation. I had the USAF pay my schooling ($10k per year in the mid to late 90's at a bottom 5 desirable state) so I have no student loans. We bought a house in 2003 for $460k (2640 sq ft). We lived on $180-$210k/yr (wf doesn't work). I paid off my house in 2021 thru savings, investments, and inheritance. I highly recommend your spouse have a solid income. I'm stuck doing things I don't like. I work on Medicaid pts. Since our area is pretty saturated, I learned many have to do unnecessary work to prop up their production. For assoc, that means minimal daily or monthly quotas. I wouldn't want my kids to be a dentist and practice in our location.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Average associate GP income? 215k? Eh...I find that hard to believe. Didn't the ADA come out and say its like 180k or even less than that?

Average income is so skewed. You can have very few dentists making bank and the majority of us making even at different areas. Housing varies so ridiculously. A 1500 sq ft house in Cupertino and Palo Alto CA will be $3M while my 3000 sq ft childhood house sold for $190k in $2021. Look for median income per zip code. If a young family wants a affordable home, options maybe at a rural Midwest, Plains, or Southern states. The law of economics... the cheaper the less desirable.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Average income is so skewed. You can have very few dentists making bank and the majority of us making even at different areas. Housing varies so ridiculously. A 1500 sq ft house in Cupertino and Palo Alto CA will be $3M while my 3000 sq ft childhood house sold for $190k in $2021. Look for median income per zip code. If a young family wants a affordable home, options maybe at a rural Midwest, Plains, or Southern states. The law of economics... the cheaper the less desirable.

Ya im not moving rural midwest, plains, or the south lol

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Ya im not moving rural midwest, plains, or the south lol

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[AONLINE]

Average associate GP income? 215k? Eh...I find that hard to believe. Didn't the ADA come out and say its like 180k or even less than that?

This number is from a survey conducted in 2023, link to the entire pdf can be found here: https://amplify360.com/hubfs/salary...tm_content=286949051&utm_source=hs_automation

They polled 534 dentists across the US (426 owners & 108 associates). Summary of dentists’ numbers could be found on pg 4 of the report. The average income of associate GPs is reported to be $217,867 (25th percentile is $200,000, 75th percentile is $250,000 and median is $200,000)

According to the report, “prior to calculating the income means, outliers were removed using the Interquartile Range (IRQ) method.” Of course you can choose to believe with that sample size the numbers are still skewed.

 

[Smile2thetop]

Question (going back to the topic of the discussion)

Is it possible for a GP owner to make more than a specialist by virtue of hygiene?

 

[DrJeff]

Question (going back to the topic of the discussion)

Is it possible for a GP owner to make more than a specialist by virtue of hygiene?

Anything is possible with the proper scaling of a practice size.

Now the physical and mental toll it may take on you if you need as a GP to scale big (3-4+ hygienists, working 40-50+ hours a week, 5-6 days a week, 50 weeks a year, etc) is something to factor in, especially if you plan on having a family, and more importantly being an integral part of your family over the years, is something where may come to understand that quantity of income and quality of life may be at odds at times.

I know personally having been in practice for 25 years or so now, and having both of my kids out of the house in college now, that I do wish that sometimes in the past, as my kids were younger, that I said "no" to work/professional requests at times and "yes" to family related opportunities over the years. There definitely were some family opportunities that I missed out on, and can't get those chances back, that in the big scheme of things wasn't as important to me as the work/professional opportunitues I said yes to.

Finding that balance is an important thing, and that balance will likely be different for everyone

 

[yappy]

Sometimes I think we make this too complicated.

IMO:
-Do you want to practice dentistry? If you do not then do not do it.
-Get into a reasonably priced school (<300k) or do a federal scholarship program.
-Do you like a specific specialty? If not then do not do it.
-Get the important insurance products (malpractice, disability, health, auto, term life, and umbrella).
-Save 30% of your income using the WCI "tax efficient investing waterfall". Do whatever you want with what's left but do not go into consumer debt and don't save any less.
-Be excellent & ethical in all that you do.

 

[Thehighwind87]

Sometimes I think we make this too complicated.

IMO:
Do you want to practice dentistry? If you do not then do not do it.
Get into a reasonably priced school (<300k) or do a federal scholarship program.
Do you like a specific specialty? If not then do not do it.
Get the important insurance products (malpractice, disability, health, auto, term life, and umbrella).
Save 30% of your income using the WCI "tax efficient investing waterfall". Do whatever you want with what's left but do not go into consumer debt and don't save any less.

It’s not that simple. People read about the endo thread on some dude taking home 1 mil take home on 18% overhead… and then say yup- I’ll go 700k into dentistry cuz I’ll be the one guy doing 1 mil on 18% overhead.

People never think they are average… until they actually go through it all and realize hey that 1 mil guy on 18% overhead is NOT the norm and I’m just now trudging away in big debt with no way out.

Then you mention this and people say well you suck and that won’t be me- rinse and repeat.

 

[yappy]

It’s not that simple. People read about the endo thread on some dude taking home 1 mil take home on 18% overhead… and then say yup- I’ll go 700k into dentistry cuz I’ll be the one guy doing 1 mil on 18% overhead.

People never think they are average… until they actually go through it all and realize hey that 1 mil guy on 18% overhead is NOT the norm and I’m just now trudging away in big debt with no way out.

Then you mention this and people say well you suck and that won’t be me- rinse and repeat.

Im saying to not do that.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Please don’t ever move back. America is the land of opportunities period.

These colors don’t run…

Big Hoss