Counseling and Residency

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Doctor4Life1769

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So, I received my contract and I read this:
"Access to appropriate and confidential counseling, medical, and psychological support services"

I'm not saying or inferring I desire counseling. However, my question is mainly for all of us: how "confidential" is this service? Could anything (within reason, I suppose) you say be fair game to send to the PD and/or hurt your chances of sticking?

I've read how PDs will often have their residents pursue in-house counseling in order to start a paper-trail; however, what if the resident voluntarily pursues this option on an as needed basis?
 
I'm probably pretty cynical about this but I would go out-of-system to see anyone for psychiatric/psychological help. I would worry about word getting around to my colleagues. Sad, but true.
 
There are employment laws that govern these types of mental health services. Unless you plan to harm someone, you can feel safe that the information you're sharing is going to be confidential.
 
There are employment laws that govern these types of mental health services. Unless you plan to harm someone, you can feel safe that the information you're sharing is going to be confidential.

Hmmm...you might want to read the story about Dr. Serrano and Johns Hopkins.

These things are *not* confidential. While it might be employment law, I have personally seen PDs demand information about residents undergoing counseling stating that it was necessary to figure out whether or not they were fit to work.

I agree with Buzz...if you need counseling, go outside the system.
 
Sadly I would concur. While many of my colleagues maintain high levels of confidentiality, within the system people socialize and being new to the system you don't know who to trust.

Damn that sounds paranoid. 😀

This is a hot topic, as mental health in physicians is a possible area of discrimination by medical boards, future employers, and the stigma continues to drive people underground. Neglecting treatment leads to morbidity, and to mortality (in various forms, not limited to alcohol/drug use, and even suicide).

Make sure you get the help you want/need, and I agree, get it from outside your university/hospital.
 
Sadly I would concur. While many of my colleagues maintain high levels of confidentiality, within the system people socialize and being new to the system you don't know who to trust.

Damn that sounds paranoid. 😀

This is a hot topic, as mental health in physicians is a possible area of discrimination by medical boards, future employers, and the stigma continues to drive people underground. Neglecting treatment leads to morbidity, and to mortality (in various forms, not limited to alcohol/drug use, and even suicide).

Make sure you get the help you want/need, and I agree, get it from outside your university/hospital.

I'm merely an un-enlightened pre-med, but even if you go outside the system, can the employer see what the patient (resident in this case) is being billed for through insurance?

I would think it's highly unethical and violates all privacy laws, but still curious.
 
I'm merely an un-enlightened pre-med, but even if you go outside the system, can the employer see what the patient (resident in this case) is being billed for through insurance?

I would think it's highly unethical and violates all privacy laws, but still curious.

Fairly certain this is not just highly unethical but highly illegal. Insurance does not disclose patient information to employers, the employer either provides the insurance policy or supplements its cost but does not have access to what you are using the information for. Your insurance account is your insurance account. This would be like an employer watching over your bank records or other private information to determine what your salary should be.
 
Fairly certain this is not just highly unethical but highly illegal. Insurance does not disclose patient information to employers, the employer either provides the insurance policy or supplements its cost but does not have access to what you are using the information for. Your insurance account is your insurance account. This would be like an employer watching over your bank records or other private information to determine what your salary should be.

Fair enough, that's what I'd assumed, thanks!
 
Fair enough... judging from the issues that arise, I agree with all of you about seeking outside sources.

I think this is important for everyone, since we read of all the horror stories involving in-house counseling services and how it can affect your climb towards the end of residency (i.e. Serrano case, and a long list of other cases I'm sure). Thanks for all of your advice.
 
definitely go outside the system. the programs are able talk to these counseling services because they may know them as acquaintances or friends or collegues, what have you. nothing is confidential. they give you a false sense of security.
 
I'm merely an un-enlightened pre-med, but even if you go outside the system, can the employer see what the patient (resident in this case) is being billed for through insurance?

I would think it's highly unethical and violates all privacy laws, but still curious.

Again, I'm cynical, but would use a fake name and pay cash if I were in therapy. The $150/hour would be worth not leaving a paper trail.

Please don't be naive and think "doctor-patient confidentiality" can't be violated or leaked.
 
I'm surprised so many posters seem quite paranoid about these services. Maybe it's just my location (LA) but in this town having a shrink is almost considered cool- everyone in Beverly Hills has one and now you can too for free as a resident...
 
I'm surprised so many posters seem quite paranoid about these services. Maybe it's just my location (LA) but in this town having a shrink is almost considered cool- everyone in Beverly Hills has one and now you can too for free as a resident...

Watch 90210 or the Hills much? 🙄
 
I'm an absolutely happy, sane, well-adjusted, perfectly content guy without a care in the world, but if the day ever came that I felt the need to see a shrink you can bet your ass that I would never ever ever ever ever EVER see someone within my own institution, or someone I knew to associate in any professional or personal way with anyone from my own institution.

It's not that I've got anything against my institution, there's just nothing good that can come of that sort of thing.

Cash to someone else, somewhere else.
 
I'm an absolutely happy, sane, well-adjusted, perfectly content guy without a care in the world, but if the day ever came that I felt the need to see a shrink you can bet your ass that I would never ever ever ever ever EVER see someone within my own institution, or someone I knew to associate in any professional or personal way with anyone from my own institution.

It's not that I've got anything against my institution, there's just nothing good that can come of that sort of thing.

Cash to someone else, somewhere else.

Its not just the doctor that can spread your business around the hospital. Put me in this camp too.
 
Don't hang your dirty laundry in your backyard.
 
Hmmm...you might want to read the story about Dr. Serrano and Johns Hopkins.

These things are *not* confidential. While it might be employment law, I have personally seen PDs demand information about residents undergoing counseling stating that it was necessary to figure out whether or not they were fit to work.

I agree with Buzz...if you need counseling, go outside the system.

Wow, the amount of paranoia in this thread is pathological.

Our program encourages people to seek counseling if needed, and we have financial incentives to have fill out a "wellness" survey and take advantage of a health coach if we want.

Say what you will about doctor-patient confidentiality, but I would like to trust my provider as much as I would like my patients to trust me.

PD *cannot* access information without your consent. Or, if there is a serious concern and you don't consent, they will at least notify you. Unless either your provider or your PD is a complete tool.

Unfortunately, there is still stigma about mental health issues for providers. But, if mental health issues are affecting your work, THAT will get around like wildfire. If you confidentially seek care (in or outside of your institution), and someone catches wind of this and spreads it around (with intent to be detrimental, not a concerned colleague), I would honestly take the issue to the PD myself as a marker of unprofessional conduct by the gossiper.
 
Wow, the amount of paranoia in this thread is pathological.

Its not paranoia if it actually happens.

Our program encourages people to seek counseling if needed, and we have financial incentives to have fill out a "wellness" survey and take advantage of a health coach if we want.

That's wonderful for you and your colleagues but you would be wise to understand that many residents do not have the same encouragement or protection.

Say what you will about doctor-patient confidentiality, but I would like to trust my provider as much as I would like my patients to trust me.

I would too.

PD *cannot* access information without your consent. Or, if there is a serious concern and you don't consent, they will at least notify you. Unless either your provider or your PD is a complete tool.

Uh huh...and if that consent is a condition of you returning to work? What recourse do you think most residents have? And do you not think, not just for a minute, that there *are* faculty members and PDs out there that get the information without your consent?

I took time off for a relatively minor event during residency; it was not forced by my program and was my choice. However, before I could return to work, the stipulation was that I was "medically cleared" and able to perform my duties. The PD absolutely had access to my medical records and demanded a letter. Fortunately, nothing damaging in the letter or the records but had there been? Who knows if I'd been allowed to return to residency.

Unfortunately, there is still stigma about mental health issues for providers. But, if mental health issues are affecting your work, THAT will get around like wildfire. If you confidentially seek care (in or outside of your institution), and someone catches wind of this and spreads it around (with intent to be detrimental, not a concerned colleague), I would honestly take the issue to the PD myself as a marker of unprofessional conduct by the gossiper.

And that is noble of you but how does that the person that was gossiped about? You've contradicted yourself here and admitted that such things DO get around, and that people DO talk about the care given to other colleagues.

It only takes one loose lipped front desk receptionist to mention that she saw Dr. Dantay at the Methadone Clinic to have your reputation bandied about the hospital. Remember its not always the health care provider who is violating HIPPA.
 
Its not paranoia if it actually happens.
"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you" :meanie: I'll give you that. It's not a perfect world. Bad s**t DOES happen at work all the time. But, I still contend that encouraging a culture where people are *afraid* to get needed help is counterproductive. Yes, we have a high stakes occupation, and it would suck to have it jeopardized by some douchebag not behaving professionally. But, I'm going to the give the majority of people the benefit of the doubt. But, if I get f****d over, I'll fight it (and yes - you can say that I'm contradicting myself, but this is from my experiences as well).

That's wonderful for you and your colleagues but you would be wise to understand that many residents do not have the same encouragement or protection.
I don't doubt that this is true. And, you are probably right that I've had the benefit of choosing a non-malignant program. It sounds like the OP is right at the beginning of their experience. I hope they choose well, and it might be good to know early on how their program actually feels about what they put in their contract. Is it just BS that is meant to give the impression of support, or do they actually back it up? Unfortunately, you, I, and the OP probably can't assess that.


Uh huh...and if that consent is a condition of you returning to work? What recourse do you think most residents have? And do you not think, not just for a minute, that there *are* faculty members and PDs out there that get the information without your consent?

I'm not saying that residents may not be coerced into signing the release. But, if the records are being accessed without your consent OR knowledge, they should be ready for possible legal repercussions.

I took time off for a relatively minor event during residency; it was not forced by my program and was my choice. However, before I could return to work, the stipulation was that I was "medically cleared" and able to perform my duties. The PD absolutely had access to my medical records and demanded a letter. Fortunately, nothing damaging in the letter or the records but had there been? Who knows if I'd been allowed to return to residency.

I, too, had to take some time off during residency for a medical leave, and also required my medical clearance from ALL of my providers (including my mental health provider). Several folks, including occupational physicians that I was rotating with and discussed things with candidly, mentioned that it would be potentially illegal for aspects of my training contract to be changed on the basis of medical leave. On the other hand, if I was found to be significantly impaired and should not be caring for patients, regardless of whether or not that fit in with my career goals, I probably shouldn't be practicing, right?

You've contradicted yourself here and admitted that such things DO get around, and that people DO talk about the care given to other colleagues.

I didn't say that such things NEVER get around. I'm said if your mental health compromises your work, that will be spread FASTER.

If someone sees you waiting in the reception area for the psychiatrist's office, that's gossip, speculation, and not really anyone's busy (but some nosy nebs will still choose to make it their business, and yeah - they could spread it around, even it's not true - maybe you were waiting for a meeting or an interview?). It might eventually permeate your entire workplace, but that's a sign of a toxic work environment to begin with (and yeah - you don't need to tell me that most hospitals are like this, I know). But, I'll bet that gossip train is a whole lot slower than the "Dr. So-and-so is incompetent" one. And, if the "rumor mill" train comes around after you've already gotten back on track, most people won't give a s**t if you're doing a good job now. (How are these train metaphors working for you?)

And that is noble of you but how does that the person that was gossiped about?

It doesn't help them, but that's not because of my actions. It's because of the other person that doesn't understand professionalism. And, by doing something about it, you are trying to make a small chip into the "unwritten curriculum" that everyone acknowledges but mostly unwilling to try to change.

It only takes one loose lipped front desk receptionist to mention that she saw Dr. Dantay at the Methadone Clinic to have your reputation bandied about the hospital. Remember its not always the health care provider who is violating HIPPA.

True enough. But, unless we're living the lives of the saints and have not a single skeleton in our closet, that's a risk that we face every day. Someone could point at a resident's facebook page and suggest that they have an alcohol problem because of "one too many pictures" that they were unwise enough to post.

I'm just arguing that, whatever the problem is (mental health and substance abuse are the points brought up so far), suggesting that people do not seek out help when it's needed is ultimately going to result in a bigger problem than "maybe the other residents are gossiping about me". And, if your PD is pulling this kind of crap, you might already be screwed and other people need to know that this stuff needs to be investigated. But for the individual, going without help has a better chance of leading to a serious negative outcome, either a professionalism issue (working impaired, stealing narcs, fraud, whatever) or worse (not excluding death).
 
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I certainly wasn't arguing (nor did I think anyone else was either) that residents with problems shouldn't get help for it. Quite the contrary.

What I and others were merely responding to was the assumption that your information would stay private within the work place. Residency can be like frickin' Peyton Place. We were merely recommending that if you need counseling one should seriously consider seeking treatment outside of the home program.

Otherwise I think were saying the same thing.
"Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you" :meanie: I'll give you that. It's not a perfect world. Bad s**t DOES happen at work all the time. But, I still contend that encouraging a culture where people are *afraid* to get needed help is counterproductive. Yes, we have a high stakes occupation, and it would suck to have it jeopardized by some douchebag not behaving professionally. But, I'm going to the give the majority of people the benefit of the doubt. But, if I get f****d over, I'll fight it (and yes - you can say that I'm contradicting myself, but this is from my experiences as well).


I don't doubt that this is true. And, you are probably right that I've had the benefit of choosing a non-malignant program. It sounds like the OP is right at the beginning of their experience. I hope they choose well, and it might be good to know early on how their program actually feels about what they put in their contract. Is it just BS that is meant to give the impression of support, or do they actually back it up? Unfortunately, you, I, and the OP probably can't assess that.




I'm not saying that residents may not be coerced into signing the release. But, if the records are being accessed without your consent OR knowledge, they should be ready for possible legal repercussions.



I, too, had to take some time off during residency for a medical leave, and also required my medical clearance from ALL of my providers (including my mental health provider). Several folks, including occupational physicians that I was rotating with and discussed things with candidly, mentioned that it would be potentially illegal for aspects of my training contract to be changed on the basis of medical leave. On the other hand, if I was found to be significantly impaired and should not be caring for patients, regardless of whether or not that fit in with my career goals, I probably shouldn't be practicing, right?



I didn't say that such things NEVER get around. I'm said if your mental health compromises your work, that will be spread FASTER.

If someone sees you waiting in the reception area for the psychiatrist's office, that's gossip, speculation, and not really anyone's busy (but some nosy nebs will still choose to make it their business, and yeah - they could spread it around, even it's not true - maybe you were waiting for a meeting or an interview?). It might eventually permeate your entire workplace, but that's a sign of a toxic work environment to begin with (and yeah - you don't need to tell me that most hospitals are like this, I know). But, I'll bet that gossip train is a whole lot slower than the "Dr. So-and-so is incompetent" one. And, if the "rumor mill" train comes around after you've already gotten back on track, most people won't give a s**t if you're doing a good job now. (How are these train metaphors working for you?)



It doesn't help them, but that's not because of my actions. It's because of the other person that doesn't understand professionalism. And, by doing something about it, you are trying to make a small chip into the "unwritten curriculum" that everyone acknowledges but mostly unwilling to try to change.



True enough. But, unless we're living the lives of the saints and have not a single skeleton in our closet, that's a risk that we face every day. Someone could point at a resident's facebook page and suggest that they have an alcohol problem because of "one too many pictures" that they were unwise enough to post.

I'm just arguing that, whatever the problem is (mental health and substance abuse are the points brought up so far), suggesting that people do not seek out help when it's needed is ultimately going to result in a bigger problem than "maybe the other residents are gossiping about me". And, if your PD is pulling this kind of crap, you might already be screwed and other people need to know that this stuff needs to be investigated. But for the individual, going without help has a better chance of leading to a serious negative outcome, either a professionalism issue (working impaired, stealing narcs, fraud, whatever) or worse (not excluding death).
 
I certainly wasn't arguing (nor did I think anyone else was either) that residents with problems shouldn't get help for it. Quite the contrary.

What I and others were merely responding to was the assumption that your information would stay private within the work place. Residency can be like frickin' Peyton Place. We were merely recommending that if you need counseling one should seriously consider seeking treatment outside of the home program.

Otherwise I think were saying the same thing.

Fair enough. Again, I think I'm spoiled, because my program provides free care in-house, so it seems like an unnecessary financial burden (again, acknowledging my N of 1 experience). I have heard the recommendation from folks here that if you were going for an acute issue that you would be worried about confidentiality, that it is better to go outside of the system. But, in that case I'm talking about severe stuff, like something requiring inpatient treatment. In that situation, theoretically anyone looking at the ward list might see your name. But, if they get caught snoping in your record, that's still serious s**t - we get regular emails about # of disciplinary actions and/or terminations of staff accessing charts inappropriately. That won't stop the speculation of why you are admitted though, if anyone browsing the roster can see.

Taking back into consideration your response and the OP's question, I still think it would be worth checking into (either directly with the program, or if you do have a trusted current resident in the program) just how serious the offer is. Meaning, is it lip service or do they actually want you to use the services available? Again, not revealing more than I already have, I have utilized the services of both a psychiatrist (whom I had since med school) and more recently, a counselor. I made the arrangements with the counselor specifically to address ways to improve my work (learning ways to be more efficient, less anxious, more confident in my choices, etc). In that regard, it was helpful that the counselor happens to work with a lot of residents, so he has a framework for offering suggestions. If I went outside, I'd probably get more generic advice with less applicability.

In some settings, though, I can definitely see using offsite services would be a reasonable option. Coping with acute, unexpected situations (loss of a loved one or a major family crisis, dealing with the emotions of work like a bad outcome on case you took personally, being victimized somehow, or just dealing with the interpersonal stress at work) where you're not expecting a huge commitment of time or money, going outside might save you some headaches. But, my experience is that counselors are like chiropractors - you might feel better for a little bit, but they're going to want you to come back early and often :meanie: (unless they are trying to help you prevent problems from coming back).
 
Wow, the amount of paranoia in this thread is pathological.

Some of us have witnessed co-workers we know and care about get needlessly burned. Sure, you can pursue the HIPAA violation, but that's not necessarily appealing because the unavoidable side effect is even more widespread attention and awareness. Or maybe there's no HIPAA violation at all, and there's no recourse.

If you've got the sense to look after yourself by seeking counseling or mental health help when you think you need it, by all means consider doing so in a way that minimizes the risk of other hassles or complications. The few $hundred out of pocket across town would be money well spent ... even on a resident's salary.

There's the utopian ideal, and then there's cold hard reality. JMHO.
 
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