Counseling PhD

[tshielad]

A lot of the forums seem to talk about whether or not a Clinical PhD is worth it and it seems to go back and forth. But I am interested in Counseling PhD programs and I am wondering if people who choose to go into those programs find it worth it? And why they chose Counseling over Clinical?

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[shutterbug433]

The debate between counseling and clinical really depends on which team you play for I'm in counseling psychology, and I appreciate a holistic perspective of the individual, and areas like vocational psychology that are unique to counseling psychology. Find out more information at this link: http://www.div17.org/students_differences.html

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Although theoretically there are differences between the degrees, they are more alike than different. Both clinical and counseling degrees are licensed as psychologists. There is no difference in licensure. Therefore, job opportunities are similar.

Best,
Dr. E

 

[G Costanza]

I agree with Dr. Eliza. Both programs employ the scientist/practitioner model. IMHO- Clinical leans towards the scientists while counseling leans towards the practitioner. Both are capable of either though. What is interesting is that it's usually very clear what side of the fence you are on just based on personality.

 

[annieEEG]

Sorry if this has been answered, but do VA Medical Centers hire Counseling PhD graduates or solely Clinical PhD's and PsyD's? I was wondering if a Counseling PhD would put me at a disadvantage for this career track.

 

[GoPokes]

Sorry if this has been answered, but do VA Medical Centers hire Counseling PhD graduates or solely Clinical PhD's and PsyD's? I was wondering if a Counseling PhD would put me at a disadvantage for this career track.

A Counseling PhD (in my limited experinece/knowledge) would not put you at a disadvantage at all. At one of the Counseling Ph.D. programs I was just accepted to, many of the students have done externships/gotten internships/ found jobs with the VA.

 

[busybusybusy]

A lot of the forums seem to talk about whether or not a Clinical PhD is worth it and it seems to go back and forth. But I am interested in Counseling PhD programs and I am wondering if people who choose to go into those programs find it worth it? And why they chose Counseling over Clinical?

I absolutely love my Counseling Psych program! I applied to and was accepted to both Clinical and Counseling programs, ultimately I chose Counseling partially because I felt my mentor's research interests were a perfect match for mine. I go to a very clinical-esque Counseling program, but the main differences I see in my training versus friends who are in Clinical programs is that there is more of a focus on the individual as a whole opposed to the diagnosis an individual has in my program. Also, in clinical programs there seems to be more focus on abnormal psychopathology, whereas in my program it is more balanced. These are just my experiences, but in my opinion if you're looking at Counseling programs and want something that sounds similar make sure you're looking at Counseling Psych programs that are in Psychology departments, not Education departments - those generally tend to be less clinical-esque. When it really comes down to it though, you have to fit with the professor an the program.

Sorry if this has been answered, but do VA Medical Centers hire Counseling PhD graduates or solely Clinical PhD's and PsyD's? I was wondering if a Counseling PhD would put me at a disadvantage for this career track.

Absolutely not, my program has a great relationship with a local VA.Wwe do practicum there, one of our students is on internship there currently and the internship training director is a graduate of our program.

 

[tshielad]

For those that have or are in a Counseling PhD program why did you go into it? (especially if it is focused more on the individual which I am interested in) I keep hearing it's not worth it unless you want to teach or become a researcher.

 

[busybusybusy]

For those that have or are in a Counseling PhD program why did you go into it? (especially if it is focused more on the individual which I am interested in) I keep hearing it's not worth it unless you want to teach or become a researcher.

I think you may be thinking of Counselor Ed programs, Counseling Psych programs qualify you for the same experience and license as someone with a Clinical Psych degree.

You can read about the differences in these two threads:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=883408

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=853150

 

[tshielad]

No I'm talking about a Counseling Psychology PhD. I am not sure if it is worth getting however. Currently I am in a Masters Mental Health Counseling Program. I am interested in working with victims of trauma. While I am somewhat interested in research I am not sure if getting a PhD is worth the time and money when I primarily want to practice therapy.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

No I'm talking about a Counseling Psychology PhD. I am not sure if it is worth getting however. Currently I am in a Masters Mental Health Counseling Program. I am interested in working with victims of trauma. While I am somewhat interested in research I am not sure if getting a PhD is worth the time and money when I primarily want to practice therapy.

It's not. If you want to be a therapist, there is no reason to get a Ph.D.

 

[Zebra F701]

While it might be necessary to think about these market-based cost/benefit analyses regarding choice of program, it seems that this forum neglects the factors of passion, curiosity, and vocation. A PhD or PsyD may not be "financially responsible," but I think it sets one up to be an expert in the field and is a great option for the would-be therapist if only because it requires more practica, coursework, and dedication. I believe that if, with and MA or LCSW you would be an excellent therapist, then with a PhD you will only get better. Don't let the cynicsm and narrow-mindedness of this forum get you down. And frankly, I think all this worry about job security upon graduation is a function of entitlement and fear.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

While it might be necessary to think about these market-based cost/benefit analyses regarding choice of program, it seems that this forum neglects the factors of passion, curiosity, and vocation. A PhD or PsyD may not be "financially responsible," but I think it sets one up to be an expert in the field and is a great option for the would-be therapist if only because it requires more practica, coursework, and dedication. I believe that if, with and MA or LCSW you would be an excellent therapist, then with a PhD you will only get better. Don't let the cynicsm and narrow-mindedness of this forum get you down. And frankly, I think all this worry about job security upon graduation is a function of entitlement and fear.

The reason the forum frequently recommends against obtaining a doctorate when the primary goal is therapy is that such a goal often (although not always) goes hand-in-hand with a lack of interest in other areas that are crucial to PhD/PsyD training, such as research, supervision, and program development. This is why the second question usually asked after, "do you only want to conduct therapy" is, "do you have any interest in research?"

There's nothing necessarily wrong with an individual pursuing a doctorate if the primary goal is therapy; it's not the most efficient or cost-effective route, but it happens. However, the problem comes in when these individuals then eschew the other areas opened up by doctoral training (mentioned above), and instead opt to take low-paying positions marketed as being for a psychologist OR social worker, for example. This devalues the field, and the degree, as a whole.

 

[tshielad]

While it might be necessary to think about these market-based cost/benefit analyses regarding choice of program, it seems that this forum neglects the factors of passion, curiosity, and vocation. A PhD or PsyD may not be "financially responsible," but I think it sets one up to be an expert in the field and is a great option for the would-be therapist if only because it requires more practica, coursework, and dedication. I believe that if, with and MA or LCSW you would be an excellent therapist, then with a PhD you will only get better. Don't let the cynicsm and narrow-mindedness of this forum get you down. And frankly, I think all this worry about job security upon graduation is a function of entitlement and fear.

Thanks. That's why I keep going back and forth about it. I feel like I would more efficient in therapy. There already are not that many African-Americans in the field and getting my PhD would make it even and more useful in helping clients especially since I want to work more the immigrant population.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

While it might be necessary to think about these market-based cost/benefit analyses regarding choice of program, it seems that this forum neglects the factors of passion, curiosity, and vocation. A PhD or PsyD may not be "financially responsible," but I think it sets one up to be an expert in the field and is a great option for the would-be therapist if only because it requires more practica, coursework, and dedication. I believe that if, with and MA or LCSW you would be an excellent therapist, then with a PhD you will only get better. Don't let the cynicsm and narrow-mindedness of this forum get you down. And frankly, I think all this worry about job security upon graduation is a function of entitlement and fear.

I think you have a good point, as the entitlement aspect is very prominent around these parts. However, there are many quality routes to becoming a premier therapist that do not involve the indoctrination into academia (teaching, research, administration) that the PhD involves. If one is solely interested in becoming a clinician, the argument for getting the PhD really only becomes about the label and the degree. To me, that seems entitled--to feel the need to have a degree and a label in order to validate what one does, when really they mean nothing. The time that is put into training to be a therapist ends up being equal when you consider the number of years, time in training, and amount/quality of supervision, whether it is post-masters or during doctoral training. The extra education and experiences involved in getting a PhD become superfulous if therapy is the eventual goal, especially nowadays when so many excellent therapists specialize in their respective areas with masters-level training! Even going into administration and supervision, for many, does not mean going beyond the masters.

Again, I get what you are saying and it's really about what you want to do. I, myself, am finishing my masters but I do not want to be solely a clinician, and for this reason I am going on to pursue a doctorate. If I did want to be a therapist only, there would be no point in all of that extra time in school.

 

[Zebra F701]

Pursuing a PhD to feel validated is about a lot of things (privilege, insecurity, etc...and I'm as guilty as the next person), but it certainly isn't about entitlement.
As for extra education and experiences being "superfluous," think about that for a moment.

Peace.

 

[paramour]

Way back when, I applied to primarily clinical programs with a smattering of counseling programs here & there. I landed in a clinical program, which was fine with me as I preferred clinical. However, my university also houses a counseling program, and I have taken elective coursework there (as well in the department of family sciences, i.e., where the marriage & family therapy folks go). I have enjoyed the coursework in these other departments. It certainly provides me with another perspective and even more alternatives in which to frame conceptualizations (as well as training opportunities that I would not receive in my own department).

These counseling (and other) electives have been nice breaks over the years. However, I honestly believe that I would drive myself batty if I was in one of those departments 100%. The students are "different." The background is "different." Everything is . . . somehow different. Different not in a bad way. Just as in it's a unique flavor that it's something you're not used to, something interesting that you like it but not that you want all the time because it can be too overbearing/overwhelming if you have too much of it because you prefer something else most of the time.

[I hope that makes sense! I'm certainly not trying to offend any counseling folks here! The students in the counseling dept always seem so much happier than our department (and never stressed!). ]

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I honestly believe that I would drive myself batty if I was in one of those departments 100%. The students are "different." The background is "different." Everything is . . . somehow different. Different not in a bad way. Just as in it's a unique flavor that it's something you're not used to, something interesting that you like it but not that you want all the time because it can be too overbearing/overwhelming if you have too much of it because you prefer something else most of the time.

[I hope that makes sense! I'm certainly not trying to offend any counseling folks here! The students in the counseling dept always seem so much happier than our department (and never stressed!). ]

What are you talking about, exactly? Can you use some different vocabulary, besides "different"? You are talking about counseling psychology PhD programs, right?

It's been my experience, as a self-proclaimed equal-emphasis researcher-clinician, that the research-oriented folks tend to look down on the more practice-oriented folks. It happens in my current department, where I am getting a masters in clinical psychology, but there is also a masters program in counseling in the education department--our department says, with an obviously patronizing tone, that "over there" the counseling folks are, "[pause] Nicer. It's just 'nice' over there [snicker]." Now, that is strictly counseling and not counseling psychology, but I've also seen it within psychology where the experimental folks talk down about anyone who does clinical work. It's like this hierarchy, that has been defined by people in research mind you, that says they're better than everyone else because they do research and don't get all soft and mushy with people. I get that sense from your post. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I think your experience is an obvious and common conforming and identification with the group that you've been accepted and accustomed to. Perhaps if you joined a counseling psych program you'd feel much different, as you have no way of knowing how you'd be if you were in any of those departments. Again, we identify with what we know and convince ourselves that what we're doing is best.

 

[GoPokes]

I seem to find (in my limited experience) that counseling phd programs housed in psych departments tend to be incredibly similar to clinical phd programs. Can't really speak for the counseling programs in the Education departments but I'm sure they aren't too different either.

 

[4410]

I seem to find (in my limited experience) that counseling phd programs housed in psych departments tend to be incredibly similar to clinical phd programs. Can't really speak for the counseling programs in the Education departments but I'm sure they aren't too different either.

I agree as many counseling psychology programs students and clinical psychology program students take the same courses and are in the same department. The EdD doctoral degree in counseling is often in the Education Department and tend to be more directed towards individuals who already have their LPC but are wanting to have the doctoral degree to work in academia as faculty for counseling programs. UNT has a doctoral degree in counselor education that allows for LPC licensure but not psychologist licensure.

UNT has a clinical psycholoy and a counseling psychology program in the psychology department that are both APA accredited and many are accepted to VA internships. I did a practicum with a female in the counseling psychology program and she indicated that they had very similar courses except the counseling psychology students did not have a projectives assessment course whereas the clinical psychology students did have a projectives assessment course.

To some extent it is a "buyer beware" as some students do not seem to know the difference between doctoral level counseling programs and doctoral level counseling psychologist programs. Some programs are now marketing themselves as combined-scientific programs where you have emphasis in clinical, counseling, and school psychology and you may not choose your area of emphasis until your second or third year in the program, but you are able to qualify for licensure in any of the three areas once you have completed your intenship and degree.

 

[paramour]

What are you talking about, exactly? Can you use some different vocabulary, besides "different"? You are talking about counseling psychology PhD programs, right?

It's been my experience, as a self-proclaimed equal-emphasis researcher-clinician, that the research-oriented folks tend to look down on the more practice-oriented folks. It happens in my current department, where I am getting a masters in clinical psychology, but there is also a masters program in counseling in the education department--our department says, with an obviously patronizing tone, that "over there" the counseling folks are, "[pause] Nicer. It's just 'nice' over there [snicker]." Now, that is strictly counseling and not counseling psychology, but I've also seen it within psychology where the experimental folks talk down about anyone who does clinical work. It's like this hierarchy, that has been defined by people in research mind you, that says they're better than everyone else because they do research and don't get all soft and mushy with people. I get that sense from your post. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, I think your experience is an obvious and common conforming and identification with the group that you've been accepted and accustomed to. Perhaps if you joined a counseling psych program you'd feel much different, as you have no way of knowing how you'd be if you were in any of those departments. Again, we identify with what we know and convince ourselves that what we're doing is best.

<sigh> I knew someone would take offense. No, I was not being patronizing or attempting to rank this program as beneath mine. Different strokes for different folks and all that.

Oops! I used different again. (Sorry, it was late last night, and I'm severely sleep-deprived. )

This is a counseling psychology program (housed within "counseling, adult and higher education"--so they sort of lump stuff together); they have both a master's degree option (which is where most of their students fall) and a PhD just many of us.

Many of the students I have encountered would likely be considered a "lower caliber" graduate student and would not survive 1 year in our program, if they were even offered an interview into our program (and many of them have admitted as such in our conversations). This has nothing to do with ranking or "we're better than you." I am referring to their low scores on all tests, low GPAs, lack of research, lack of experience in absolutely anything. However, these particular students are also primarily the ones in the master's program, so this likely makes sense why they're not in a doctoral program. Their master's students are allowed to complete the program on a part-time basis (many of them work outside the university), so they regularly take a considerable amount of time to complete the 2-year degree. They have other responsibilities (I again empathize with this because I've been in that boat), so, again, this is understandable. The program's doctoral students (the few I've had the privilege of running into over the years) seem to be equally prepared & trained for client work--but since you mention experimental/research work, I really am uncertain whether they receive quite the same level of research/stats experience that is drummed into us from day one. I think that some of the education/training they receive is inferior to ours, and I think that some of their education/training is comparable to ours. On the other hand, I think that they far outshine our program in providing certain clinical services (that are not even touched on in our dept much to many students' dismay). I think that they do far better interacting with our general university & community population regarding issues of diversity (our dept "tries," but, in the end, I think they're merely paying lip-service to the idea). If I were required to receive any type of therapeutic services (outside of assessment because they don't seem to do any), I would probably prefer to receive them from students in the counseling psych program (master's/doctoral). I think their students and their supervisors actually put more stock into the work itself, actually care about what they are doing, and what they can do to improve themselves and help work with their clients rather than tell their clients what to do.

I actually was going to address your second point in my original post (buuut it was late and I was trying to go to bed early for once!). Maybe I would believe differently had I initially gone into a counseling program from the very beginning. FTR, I do not believe as if I *fit* personally with most of the folks in my department. I get along better with the folks (students/professors) in the counseling dept. It is the background (e.g., theory, concepts, views, perspectives) from which one is working. It is the types of issues that one typically encounters in these settings. It is these differences to which I referred to that are "different" that I like and that I enjoy to some extent, and why I continue to pursue coursework in these depts, but I could not continue working in these areas all of the time. It is entirely too mentally draining for me. It would "drive me batty." And I knew this from the beginning prior to applying to programs, so I "fell into" the right program for me. My research interests are ultimately what made the decision for me, as I looked for programs (clinical/counseling) in these specific areas. I don't find (many) individuals in counseling in these areas.

There are students (and professors) in our program who probably do consider the counseling program as a rank lower than us, which I would consider pretty darned interesting at the present time as their match rate was higher than ours this year. Many do have the attitude you described, but they are a heck of a lot more direct about it. There have been a few other students who went to take coursework in the counseling dept; they typically withdraw from the class within a day or two. It's beneath them (of course, I suspect it's partially too much work for them because these classes tend to require more submitted classwork than ours). Upon hearing that I'm taking a class in x, y, or z--and it's in the counseling dept--I've had professors, including our DCT, ask me why I'm taking coursework "over there" <gasp!>. I consider the whole darned split fairly ridiculous. Heck, we just started sending one of our students to do an external practicum over there--so they must be pretty damned good if they're helping train us now!

I know my thoughts are jumbled and rambling around (doing too many things at once!), but I hope this helped clarify your questions.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

No, I didn't take direct offense, it just smelled of previous stuff I have heard before, so I begged for clarification--which you did, and I appreciate that. Everything you said about your department makes a LOT of sense and I can relate to it. It disappoints me to no end. It also saddens me. Mostly because I really want to go into a more research-heavy program, but I am unable to because my GRE/GPA doesn't match up and my clinical experiences have "tainted" me as a clinically-focused person. Can't we all just get along? That's all I'm saying. I do appreciate your perspective.

 

[paramour]

Whew! I know that I can stick my foot in my mouth at times (I'm just that flexible! Er, & not on top of things at times unfortunately). I also tend to have some opinions that are not too popular around my dept (or around others in general). Buuut, this was not one of those times where I was *trying* to be difficult.

I agree that it would be oh, so nice if we could get along. <cue the violins> I also suspect (and admit) that if I had not repeatedly exposed myself to the counseling department and its resources, then I, too, may very well hold similar opinions to some of those in my dept. I hope that the environment is changing (albeit slowly) with at least one of our students being trained there each year as of this year. Students are now jumping at the opportunity (although I also suspect that there may be other factors at play here, but I will take it if they are exposed to something positive in turn). There has been a recent push for students to take at least one course in particular by one specific professor in the dept. No one (other than myself) has yet to do so, but I have been trying to talk about it to the junior students in our dept so maybe in the upcoming years.

Although I would agree with you that most folks consider our counseling students more practice than research-oriented, I would not immediately eliminate yourself for a research program if that is where you wish to go. Yes, there may be some of the larger names you (or many of us) may have slim chances of attending. But even with some of the clinical programs or the heavier research programs, there are students who tend to focus on nothing but their clinical work. We have many students who come in with a considerable amount of clinical-ish work, although they are still required to have research experience in addition to this. Some professors undoubtedly will focus more on the research experience and not blink twice at any clinical experience, whereas others may take it into consideration. It really depends on the program, the professor, etc. If you're interested in a research program, try for research programs. Just be prepared to have some research experience when you apply! I don't know your scores, but there are variations across programs and even within programs. If you locate specific programs/professors of interest, you could always contact them prior to the application cycle to briefly introduce yourself, express your interest, and ask not only if they are accepting students for the upcoming year but if your scores, experience, etc. would be considered (or whether you should move along... )

 

[Psychadelic2012]

If you're interested in a research program, try for research programs. Just be prepared to have some research experience when you apply! I don't know your scores, but there are variations across programs and even within programs. If you locate specific programs/professors of interest, you could always contact them prior to the application cycle to briefly introduce yourself, express your interest, and ask not only if they are accepting students for the upcoming year but if your scores, experience, etc. would be considered (or whether you should move along... )

Been there, done that--all of it. I have a TON of research experience--a masters thesis and my own self-designed study (along with two up-and-coming first-name pubs), plus a lot of varied volunteer time. I can no longer afford to volunteer my time on other people's research projects and/or invest my own money in traveling to locations to conduct research (I've done all of that). Yet, the only bites on my applications are from counseling psych programs that are much more practice-focused. I am only speculating as to why, but my 60-credit masters degree and 1.5 years of clinical experience make me a less-than-stellar research-focused candidate, I know (I have baggage and I am not as competitive for funding with that degree). Oh well. I know I will be supported to pursue research where I go (and I'll publish, so I know I'll be competitive for academic jobs), I'm just tired of the stigmas.

 

[busybusybusy]

Just so no one gets confused that joining a Counseling Psych program is easy...

I'm in a Counseling Psych program, which is housed in a Psych Dept. (I do think this makes a difference from those housed in Ed depts.), and we do ALOT of research. In my first year, I'm almost ready to propose my thesis, working on an manuscript, presented at a regional conference and recently got a poster accepted at APA. So please don't anyone think that Counseling programs do less research.

We have a Clinical program also in the dept. and although I would absolutely say that we are more practice oriented then they are, I would not say we are less resarch oriented than they are. We take the same research and stats classes that they do - with them. I don't feel that there is an attitude of superiority from their students, although I haven't interacted with their faculty much so not sure about that. We go through the same thesis and dissertation processes that they do, but we get much more hands on clinical interaction that they do, we've already started working with clients (in the first year) and they have not. The only main difference I have seen between my program an the clinical one is the view of the patient. In Counseling there is much more of an integrative view, looking at the patient as a person with an enviornment as opposed to the Clinical program which IMO looks more at the patient as a diagnosis.

TBH I feel that we are much more well rounded students and our stats (match rate, EPPP pass rate) support this. I really think it depends on what program you go to, but if someone is interested in Counseling Psych (as opposed to Counselor Ed or Clinical programs) I don't want them thinking that all programs have less research productivity or are "touchy-feely" - that is definitely not how I would characterize my program.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think what might've happened is that at some point in the past, counseling programs were perhaps less-stringent with respect to admissions requirements. I've heard faculty and other graduate students mention this, although I have no idea how long ago that was, or how accurate the sentiment is.

Regardless, especially over the past decade, the line dividing the two types of programs seems to have become exceedingly blurred both in terms of training experiences and admissions stats. I don't have any direct experience with counseling students or programs, so I can't speak to the overall "feel" of the area, but I do know that just based on what I've seen here, the two (clinical and counseling) seem to much more alike than they are different.