Counseling Psychology Job Market

[treecity]

In looking at doctoral programs, I find that my research interests would match with faculty in both counseling and clinical psychology programs. I understand that counseling psychology programs differ from clinical psychology programs in that they tend to focus on vocational issues and focus less on behavioral medicine. Despite the programmatic differences, I feel that I would be comfortable in both clinical and counseling programs.

That said, I'm wondering about differences in the job market for clinical and counseling candidates. I read through many of the previous threads on this board and arrived at the following list of pros/cons to a counseling psychology PhD (as compared to a clinical PhD) with respect to the job market:

Pros:
+ More frequently employed in university counseling centers

Cons:
- Less frequently employed in hospitals
- Less flexible academic employment (clinical PhDs may be employed by psychiatry depts.)
- Fewer counseling psychology programs than clinical programs (therefore fewer faculty openings)

I am clearly missing the full picture, so I am appealing to the forum for help. In general, how available are jobs for counseling psychology graduates (as compared to clinical psych PhDs)? I am specifically interested in the academic job market, as a tenure track position is my ultimate aspiration.

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[G Costanza]

I think if you are strickly limited to a university setting, and you don't mind either clincial or counseling pscyh (Although I think there are many more differences than you mentioned), I would suggest clinical. There will be many more clinical psych academic job openings just based on the larger number of clinical programs.

Now you didnt't ask about this but I would spend more time learning the difference between clincal and counseling psych. In my experience, it would be unusual that someone would be just as happy in either type. I might start with this article and go from there

http://www.csun.edu/~hcpsy002/Clinical Versus Counseling Psychology.pdf

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I was the same way. I threw out over a dozen applications to a combination of programs and ultimately the schools that thought I was the best fit accepted me--counseling psych. My impression is that these programs were more mature, accepted more students with masters degrees, were focused more on health, adults, and social justice, and were much more flexible. At first glance, it seems that they are more practice-focused and steered towards university counseling center practice, but really there are opportunities to do SO much more. A student in these programs can make it whatever they want it to be--granted, it's not handed to you, but it does seem more suited to the older student with credentials under their belt already (which is me). I know students and graduates that are academics (and it's more open in counseling psych because it can include masters programs in counseling) doing both research and teaching, working in prisons/jails, focusing on assessments, and working in private practice, VAs and hospitals.

So, my advice is to just apply and see where the wind takes you. It is my firm conviction, after two years of applying, that you don't pick the school--they pick you. See who thinks you are best for them.

 

[busybusybusy]

I think that it depends on the program you go to. For instance in my Counseling Psych program we do quite a bit of behavioral medicine, so many of our graduates are in VAs and Hospitals. My recommendation is to see which programs match your research interests (regardless of if it's Clinical or Counseling) and then see where their graduates work, where their 3rd and 4th year students do externships and internships, and then see which are most appealing to you. In my experience talking to practitioners in the field, once you're out and graduate there isn't a ton of difference in where you can work based on the degree you get, it's more about your prior experiences and internship.

As far as trying to get tenure track jobs I don't think that there is much of a difference btw the two fields. There are more clinical programs, but like was mentioned above you need to look at Counseling Psych MA/MS programs. Also, don't necessarily limit yourself bc right now you may be focused on a TT career but a lot can change during your doctoral work. I've seen multiple students start out wanting to go TT and then end up loving clinical work and vice versa.

 

[aagman01]

I believe it really depends on the type of program and the training opportunities you avail yourself of. At my internship, there were students from all 3 areas (counseling, clinical, and school) at a medical setting. I believe sub-fields of psych are definately blurring - my suggestion is to look for fit among faculty rather than solely counseling or clinical (unless you have clear aspirations for one field or the other).

I think if you are strickly limited to a university setting, and you don't mind either clincial or counseling pscyh (Although I think there are many more differences than you mentioned), I would suggest clinical. There will be many more clinical psych academic job openings just based on the larger number of clinical programs.

Now you didnt't ask about this but I would spend more time learning the difference between clincal and counseling psych. In my experience, it would be unusual that someone would be just as happy in either type. I might start with this article and go from there

http://www.csun.edu/~hcpsy002/Clinical Versus Counseling Psychology.pdf

 

[treecity]

Now you didnt't ask about this but I would spend more time learning the difference between clincal and counseling psych. In my experience, it would be unusual that someone would be just as happy in either type. I might start with this article and go from there

This is certainly good advice. I've encountered documents like the one you provided, and I've also re-read the 'counseling vs. clinical' section of the Insider's Guide many, many times. At this point, my interests lean more towards counseling psychology. Perhaps this is because I read Carl Rogers' "On Becoming a Person" after taking my first psychology class... For those of you on the forum who chose between counseling and clinical psychology, what were some of the variables you weighed when deciding?

I am left with the impression (which seems to be the consensus of the board) that fit is important above all else. It sounds like fit includes program philosophy and research fit along with various intangibles, all of which can be ascertained during the interview.

My research interests lie in suicide and self-harm prevention. I can imagine myself fitting well with some of the big names in clinical psychology (Joiner, Nock, Halloway, Jobes), but I would also be excited for the opportunity to work with counseling psychology faculty (Rogers, Wong, Mallinckrodt). Should I feel comfortable applying to both counseling and clinical psychology programs? Does anyone have experience interviewing with faculty and both types of programs? If so, did you broach the subject of applying to programs of each type?

 

[joverlin]

I was the same way. I threw out over a dozen applications to a combination of programs and ultimately the schools that thought I was the best fit accepted me--counseling psych. My impression is that these programs were more mature, accepted more students with masters degrees, were focused more on health, adults, and social justice, and were much more flexible. At first glance, it seems that they are more practice-focused and steered towards university counseling center practice, but really there are opportunities to do SO much more. A student in these programs can make it whatever they want it to be--granted, it's not handed to you, but it does seem more suited to the older student with credentials under their belt already (which is me). I know students and graduates that are academics (and it's more open in counseling psych because it can include masters programs in counseling) doing both research and teaching, working in prisons/jails, focusing on assessments, and working in private practice, VAs and hospitals.

So, my advice is to just apply and see where the wind takes you. It is my firm conviction, after two years of applying, that you don't pick the school--they pick you. See who thinks you are best for them.

Hello, you said, "it's more open in counseling psych because it can include masters programs in counseling"... Does this mean it is a perfectly valid consideration I am making in completing my CACREP-accredited M.S. in Mental Health Counseling from Capella University (3.9 GPA) and then switching to a PhD in Counseling Psychology from Fielding Graduate University (the only APA-accredited university recognized by my state, according to some research)... I ask because I have heard differing stores that, "You need to have gotten your master's in Psych to get a doctoral in Psych."

Thank you in advance for any guidance on this. I am interested in Carl Rogers, as well, and existential approaches to counseling, so this is why Counseling Psych seems the best fit for me as well; however, advisors at Capella have discouraged me saying I should not "switch" to psych after studying counseling, as the two are so different.

It sounds like our paths are similar. What are your thoughts and experience with this subject?

joverlin

 

[aagman01]

Do yourself a favor if you want to actually have growth opportunities and put yourself in the best position to actually enjoy a successful career........avoid Capella and Fielding and similar such programs.

 

[therapist89]

Hi all,

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was curious about if anyone has any thoughts to add to this conversation, especially now that a couple of years have passed. At this point I want to secure a TT academic position after grad school. I've received interviews from clinical and counseling psych Ph.D. programs, and while I recognize I may not get actual offers, I want to be prepared to ask the right questions during these interviews. There is one counseling psych program in particular that I'm really into: the program emphasizes diversity/social justice, my potential PI publishes a lot and her research interests align very closely with mine, there are multiple people I could see myself collaborating with, etc. The school also has a pretty reputable clinical program, so I think if I worked hard I could secure clinical experience with more severe populations.

My main question: is there anything about getting a Ph.D. in counseling psych that would make getting a TT job more difficult? I'm not really interested in securing a slot at the most research powerhouse-esque clinical programs; I'm more so looking toward getting a position at a decently-reputable liberal arts college. I feel like I've been conditioned to perceive the clinical Ph.D. as more prestigious, but this counseling psych program has a very similar acceptance rate to the most competitive clinical programs, is in the top five counseling psych programs by rankings (which I know aren't that helpful), the students publish and have gotten academic positions, etc. Any thoughts or recommendations or questions to ask during the interviews would be much appreciated.

 

[deleted343839]

My main question: is there anything about getting a Ph.D. in counseling psych that would make getting a TT job more difficult?

Strictly speaking, no, but you need to aim high to get just about any tenure track position. Many clinical PhDs are in the running for those same SLAC jobs. So whether you attend a clinical or counseling program, you need to publish, develop a strong research focus, and ideally get some sort of funding.

During interviews you'll need to find out how the program helps prepare students for the academic job market. Learn how common it is for graduates to take TT jobs (1 every cohort or so would be a good sign). Ask about internal and external research funding opportunities. Also ask about opportunities to teach independent courses, which SLACs will care more about. Most importantly, learn about your prospective PI/mentor's record of preparing students for academic jobs (some are better at this than others).

 

[StellaB]

There is very high variability between counseling programs. The one I attended is really counseling in name only; nearly all faculty were clinical psychologists and we did heavy assessment across the lifespan, with lots neuropsych and serious mental illness stuff in our department clinic. I am currently at a forensic hospital. Some counseling programs (pm me if you want more info) are closer to clinical than others, but generally the boundaries between them are not huge anymore, so long as the program is housed in the psychology department and not the education department.

I applied to both clinical and counseling and chose my program based on fit and funding (I have no student debt; definitely worth the willingness to go to a counseling program). Things to consider: the license is the same, which is all most employers will care about. But at the same time, the name is different so some internships will care. My internship options were definitely limited due to many training directors at forensic sites having the inaccurate assumption that counseling psych isn't essentially the same thing at many programs.

Just my two cents!

 

[therapist89]

Thank you for your thoughtful and kind responses, MamaPHD and StellaB! I really appreciate them.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I recommend looking over the current job ads for TT positions to get a better sense. Check out Higher Ed Jobs or the psychology job wiki.

I say there is a great deal of similarity between the two but when you are on the market Counseling programs prefer a Counseling Psych doctorate and Clinical prefer Clinical. Now, there are plenty of people working in each others department but there is a preference. Additionally, there are more clinical programs than counseling so, do the math. Also, Counseling tends to be more likely a School of Education program while Clinical is usually in LA&S (again, not exclusively but likely). As I am learning from my current job, School of Ed does things a little differently than A&S.

But most importantly, a lot changes during graduate training and career goals are often likely to change. My advice is to choose the program that is the best fit and not worry about the job at the moment. Stay away from debt and be in a supportive environment. Those factors are going to lead to the best outcomes.

 

[therapist89]

Hi all,

Thank you for your advice, I really appreciate it. DynamicDidactic, I've really taken what you've said to heart and am almost certain that I will attend the counseling psych ph.d. program, even after interviewing at some of the top-ranked clinical programs in the country. I know I shouldn't be too bogged down in thinking 5-7 years down the line, but one concern I have with a counseling psych ph.d. is that it seems like most counseling ph.d. programs are in the midwest or the south, and I'm more interested in living on the coasts. Is it silly of me to take this into consideration even when my career direction could very well change? Or that I could find other academic positions that are not necessarily in counseling psych programs?

 

[calimich]

It's definitely possible to accomplish what you're looking for with a midwest-based counseling psych degree. I had similar ideas when I was looking at schools and picked the program and advisor partially based on their nation-wide connections. My advisors helped me make connections outside the region throughout grad school; internship also helped. One of the nice things about counseling psych is that its relatively small size makes it easy to make connections. I'd suggest getting involved early in Division 17, APAGS, and attending regional conferences to begin networking.