Covering 3-4 CRNAs with SRNAs in rooms alongside them

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

ISoNitrous

Full Member
5+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2019
Messages
39
Reaction score
84
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?

Members don't see this ad.
 
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?
1:2 unless something has changed but the crnas overseeing the srna makes it interesting.

Lots of Florida’s puppy mill srna programs were run that way (1:4) with srnasin the early 2000s before they sold out.
 
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?
We don’t do it that way. Often cover 3-4 rooms (all with CRNAs) and have an SRNA in 1-2 of those rooms and bill medical direction. I would ask the consultant to justify their statement/belief with something in writing. Not just their opinion.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
We don’t do it that way. Often cover 3-4 rooms (all with CRNAs) and have an SRNA in 1-2 of those rooms and bill medical direction. I would ask the consultant to justify their statement/belief with something in writing. Not just their opinion.

Yes agree. You can cover 4 rooms with 4 CRNAs even if all 4 rooms have an SRNA with the CRNA. Did it for years.
 
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?
This is bull malarkey. Even the most conservative group I know allows this. I would ask for a real life scenario where a group was docked.
 
So OP is asking about medically directing 4 CRNAs plus a SRNA doing 4 cases? Does that mean they are medically directing 5 people? Is that where the problem lies? Interesting question.
 
I don't see how having a srna in the room WITH a crna would affect anything from a billing standpoint.

We have AA students paired with our AAs all the time. Often will have 3 AAs and each one has a student with them.
 
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?
refuse to train SRNA, respectfully, dont be a sellout
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Do you really want this headache???

Also please look at bylaws and health code

Talk to your malpractice carriers

Don’t depend on business people on how anesthesia should be run and behave in their opinion
 
Got this by email today.


“The Rule of Two



It’s easy. Both the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) have made it clear. If you, as an anesthesia teacher, are involved in even one case involving a resident or a student registered nurse anesthetist (SRNA), you cannot run more than two concurrent cases. That means, if you’re a teaching anesthesiologist, you can oversee up to (a) two resident cases, or (b) one resident case and one medically directed case, or (c) two SRNA cases, but no more. It’s the rule of two. You cannot be involved in a third case. (Yes, there is an exception, which we will get to later.) Similarly, if you are a teaching CRNA, you cannot supervise more than two SRNA cases.



Letter of the Law



Well, how do you know that picking up a third or fourth case in the teaching context is noncompliant? Beginning with the January 2010 update to the Medicare Claims Processing Manual (MCPM), Ch 12, Sec 50B, we’re told that the personally performed rate for an anesthesiologist applies where, among other things:



The physician is involved in the training of physician residents in a single anesthesia case, two concurrent anesthesia cases involving residents or a single anesthesia case involving a resident that is concurrent to another case paid under the medical direction rules.



The clear implication is that, since 2010, an anesthesiologist cannot be involved in more than two concurrent cases where even one involves a resident in order to bill the AA modifier (indicating personal performance). Where a teaching anesthesiologist is involved in two simultaneous resident cases, the anesthesiologist can bill AA for each.

In Sec 50C of that same MCPM chapter, we find the following:



The medical direction rules apply to cases involving student nurse anesthetists if the physician directs two concurrent cases, each of which involves a student nurse anesthetist, or the physician directs one case involving a student nurse anesthetist and another involving a CRNA, AA, intern or resident.



Again, the teaching anesthesiologist is limited to two cases if even one involves an SRNA. “Fine, but what about a teaching CRNA?” In a November 2009 transmittal (1859) from CMS, we read the following instruction:



[T]he teaching CRNA can be paid the full fee for his/her involvement in each of two concurrent anesthesia cases with student nurse anesthetists. To bill the base units, the teaching CRNA must be present with the student nurse anesthetist during the pre and post anesthesia care for each of the two cases involving student nurse anesthetists.



See a pattern developing? Again, the limit is two cases.



Exception to the Rule



People often talk about “the exception that proves the rule”; and, yes, there is an exception to the otherwise ironclad rule of two. But, if you look closely, it’s not really an exception. Let’s take a look at it. Both CMS and the ASA have acknowledged that an anesthesiologist can be involved in up to four “SRNA cases.” “But, you said that’s not allowed!” Yes, yes, but here’s what’s really going on with this so-called exception. You can oversee up to four SRNA rooms only where a CRNA is continually present in each of those rooms. That is, you’ve got four CRNAs with the four SRNAs. So, what’s really taking place in this scenario is the anesthesiologist is actually medically directing the four CRNAs, each of whom happens to have a student in the room with them.



So, to wind this up, we urge and adjure you to have protocols in place within your practice that will preclude, prohibit and prevent picking up a third case where any case involves a resident or SRNA (who is without a CRNA in the SRNA room). Raise this issue with your partners. Bring it up in your meetings. Train your staff. We’re asking you to toe the line on this one, because this one really matters.“
 
Had a meeting today between our group and a 3rd party who audited our billing company.
Something that came to light was that if SRNAs are involved, the anesthesiologist can only supervise 2 rooms (regardless of CRNA involvement).

I asked - if I am covering 4 rooms, all with CRNAs, can there be an SRNA in one of those 4 rooms? I was told, no, unless the CRNA is taking responsibility for "teaching" the student (which effectively means the CRNA is billing the case himself).

Does anyone have experience here that can deny or confirm this? Does the addition of a trainee LIMIT the amount of CRNAs I can medically supervise?
Why would the CRNA not take responsibility for teaching the SRNA? That should always be the case. You should have no involvement in their education.
 
Got this by email today.


“The Rule of Two



It’s easy. Both the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) have made it clear. If you, as an anesthesia teacher, are involved in even one case involving a resident or a student registered nurse anesthetist (SRNA), you cannot run more than two concurrent cases. That means, if you’re a teaching anesthesiologist, you can oversee up to (a) two resident cases, or (b) one resident case and one medically directed case, or (c) two SRNA cases, but no more. It’s the rule of two. You cannot be involved in a third case. (Yes, there is an exception, which we will get to later.) Similarly, if you are a teaching CRNA, you cannot supervise more than two SRNA cases.



Letter of the Law



Well, how do you know that picking up a third or fourth case in the teaching context is noncompliant? Beginning with the January 2010 update to the Medicare Claims Processing Manual (MCPM), Ch 12, Sec 50B, we’re told that the personally performed rate for an anesthesiologist applies where, among other things:



The physician is involved in the training of physician residents in a single anesthesia case, two concurrent anesthesia cases involving residents or a single anesthesia case involving a resident that is concurrent to another case paid under the medical direction rules.



The clear implication is that, since 2010, an anesthesiologist cannot be involved in more than two concurrent cases where even one involves a resident in order to bill the AA modifier (indicating personal performance). Where a teaching anesthesiologist is involved in two simultaneous resident cases, the anesthesiologist can bill AA for each.

In Sec 50C of that same MCPM chapter, we find the following:



The medical direction rules apply to cases involving student nurse anesthetists if the physician directs two concurrent cases, each of which involves a student nurse anesthetist, or the physician directs one case involving a student nurse anesthetist and another involving a CRNA, AA, intern or resident.



Again, the teaching anesthesiologist is limited to two cases if even one involves an SRNA. “Fine, but what about a teaching CRNA?” In a November 2009 transmittal (1859) from CMS, we read the following instruction:



[T]he teaching CRNA can be paid the full fee for his/her involvement in each of two concurrent anesthesia cases with student nurse anesthetists. To bill the base units, the teaching CRNA must be present with the student nurse anesthetist during the pre and post anesthesia care for each of the two cases involving student nurse anesthetists.



See a pattern developing? Again, the limit is two cases.



Exception to the Rule



People often talk about “the exception that proves the rule”; and, yes, there is an exception to the otherwise ironclad rule of two. But, if you look closely, it’s not really an exception. Let’s take a look at it. Both CMS and the ASA have acknowledged that an anesthesiologist can be involved in up to four “SRNA cases.” “But, you said that’s not allowed!” Yes, yes, but here’s what’s really going on with this so-called exception. You can oversee up to four SRNA rooms only where a CRNA is continually present in each of those rooms. That is, you’ve got four CRNAs with the four SRNAs. So, what’s really taking place in this scenario is the anesthesiologist is actually medically directing the four CRNAs, each of whom happens to have a student in the room with them.



So, to wind this up, we urge and adjure you to have protocols in place within your practice that will preclude, prohibit and prevent picking up a third case where any case involves a resident or SRNA (who is without a CRNA in the SRNA room). Raise this issue with your partners. Bring it up in your meetings. Train your staff. We’re asking you to toe the line on this one, because this one really matters.“
All of that to say, if the srna is NOT with a crna in the room, you're limited to 2 rooms. But if there is a crna in each room with each srna, then the whole discussion is pointless and you can run 3-4 rooms like normal and bill like normal.

I can't even imagine a role where you're letting srnas be in rooms without a crna? Wut?
 
All of that to say, if the srna is NOT with a crna in the room, you're limited to 2 rooms. But if there is a crna in each room with each srna, then the whole discussion is pointless and you can run 3-4 rooms like normal and bill like normal.

I can't even imagine a role where you're letting srnas be in rooms without a crna? Wut?
Anywhere in Houston would blow your mind then.
 
This is an interesting topic.... a bit off topic, for those of you who Medically Direct, do you come to EVERY induction and does the "presence for induction" language expects actual presence in the room during induction or immediately available. I am not asking necessarily what you actually do but how the language is interpreted.

Thanks
 
This is an interesting topic.... a bit off topic, for those of you who Medically Direct, do you come to EVERY induction and does the "presence for induction" language expects actual presence in the room during induction or immediately available. I am not asking necessarily what you actually do but how the language is interpreted.

Thanks
It clearly means actual presence because there is a separate attestation for being "immediately available". The only grey area I exploit is "emergence", because I see all my patients in PACU and they are still emerging in PACU.
 
This is an interesting topic.... a bit off topic, for those of you who Medically Direct, do you come to EVERY induction and does the "presence for induction" language expects actual presence in the room during induction or immediately available. I am not asking necessarily what you actually do but how the language is interpreted.

Thanks
We are present for every induction and push the meds. No exceptions.
 
Got this by email today.


“The Rule of Two



It’s easy. Both the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) have made it clear. If you, as an anesthesia teacher, are involved in even one case involving a resident or a student registered nurse anesthetist (SRNA), you cannot run more than two concurrent cases. That means, if you’re a teaching anesthesiologist, you can oversee up to (a) two resident cases, or (b) one resident case and one medically directed case, or (c) two SRNA cases, but no more. It’s the rule of two. You cannot be involved in a third case. (Yes, there is an exception, which we will get to later.) Similarly, if you are a teaching CRNA, you cannot supervise more than two SRNA cases.



Letter of the Law



Well, how do you know that picking up a third or fourth case in the teaching context is noncompliant? Beginning with the January 2010 update to the Medicare Claims Processing Manual (MCPM), Ch 12, Sec 50B, we’re told that the personally performed rate for an anesthesiologist applies where, among other things:



The physician is involved in the training of physician residents in a single anesthesia case, two concurrent anesthesia cases involving residents or a single anesthesia case involving a resident that is concurrent to another case paid under the medical direction rules.



The clear implication is that, since 2010, an anesthesiologist cannot be involved in more than two concurrent cases where even one involves a resident in order to bill the AA modifier (indicating personal performance). Where a teaching anesthesiologist is involved in two simultaneous resident cases, the anesthesiologist can bill AA for each.

In Sec 50C of that same MCPM chapter, we find the following:



The medical direction rules apply to cases involving student nurse anesthetists if the physician directs two concurrent cases, each of which involves a student nurse anesthetist, or the physician directs one case involving a student nurse anesthetist and another involving a CRNA, AA, intern or resident.



Again, the teaching anesthesiologist is limited to two cases if even one involves an SRNA. “Fine, but what about a teaching CRNA?” In a November 2009 transmittal (1859) from CMS, we read the following instruction:



[T]he teaching CRNA can be paid the full fee for his/her involvement in each of two concurrent anesthesia cases with student nurse anesthetists. To bill the base units, the teaching CRNA must be present with the student nurse anesthetist during the pre and post anesthesia care for each of the two cases involving student nurse anesthetists.



See a pattern developing? Again, the limit is two cases.



Exception to the Rule



People often talk about “the exception that proves the rule”; and, yes, there is an exception to the otherwise ironclad rule of two. But, if you look closely, it’s not really an exception. Let’s take a look at it. Both CMS and the ASA have acknowledged that an anesthesiologist can be involved in up to four “SRNA cases.” “But, you said that’s not allowed!” Yes, yes, but here’s what’s really going on with this so-called exception. You can oversee up to four SRNA rooms only where a CRNA is continually present in each of those rooms. That is, you’ve got four CRNAs with the four SRNAs. So, what’s really taking place in this scenario is the anesthesiologist is actually medically directing the four CRNAs, each of whom happens to have a student in the room with them.



So, to wind this up, we urge and adjure you to have protocols in place within your practice that will preclude, prohibit and prevent picking up a third case where any case involves a resident or SRNA (who is without a CRNA in the SRNA room). Raise this issue with your partners. Bring it up in your meetings. Train your staff. We’re asking you to toe the line on this one, because this one really matters.“
Here’s your answer, folks.
 
This is an interesting topic.... a bit off topic, for those of you who Medically Direct, do you come to EVERY induction and does the "presence for induction" language expects actual presence in the room during induction or immediately available. I am not asking necessarily what you actually do but how the language is interpreted.

Thanks
We are a 100% medically directed practices. Our docs are physically present for every single induction without exception. No doc = no induction and we wait until one is there (typically just a couple minutes).

It's not like induction and intubation are long drawn-out processes. It shouldn't take longer than 2-4 minutes.
 
The dirty little secret that nobody wants to talk about and why so many practices have SRNAs is...

They're free labor. Yes, you can bill using the AA modifier, meaning you collect 100% of the fee, and medically direct two STUDENT-RNAs in two rooms.

Our medically directed practice NEVER allows STUDENT-RNAs or AA-students to be in rooms on their own. There is always a CRNA or CAA in the room with them at all times.
 
They're free labor. Yes, you can bill using the AA modifier, meaning you collect 100% of the fee, and medically direct two STUDENT-RNAs in two rooms.
Bingo. Even better for the healthcare entity, they’re labor that is paying to be there. However it is explicitly spelled out in the ASA guidelines that this is not appropriate.
 
Bingo. Even better for the healthcare entity, they’re labor that is paying to be there. However it is explicitly spelled out in the ASA guidelines that this is not appropriate.


SRNAs pay a lot of money to be there. Do anesthesiologists who train SRNAs receive any money, directly or indirectly, for teaching SRNAs? Or is it more like doctors who teach medical students?
 
MDs are not required to teach SRNAs nor Residents if they don’t want to …. if the hospital you’re at wants you to, just say no. They will either accept your refusal or eventually fire you. It’s quite simple…
 
MDs are not required to teach SRNAs nor Residents if they don’t want to …. if the hospital you’re at wants you to, just say no. They will either accept your refusal or eventually fire you. It’s quite simple…
Thanks fatso.
 
SRNAs pay a lot of money to be there. Do anesthesiologists who train SRNAs receive any money, directly or indirectly, for teaching SRNAs? Or is it more like doctors who teach medical students?
SRNAs pay money for their program. Very rare for any of that money to make it's way to clinical sites. In 40+ years I've never been paid a dime for teaching anesthesia students in the OR.
 
Got this by email today.


“The Rule of Two



It’s easy. Both the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) and the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA) have made it clear. If you, as an anesthesia teacher, are involved in even one case involving a resident or a student registered nurse anesthetist (SRNA), you cannot run more than two concurrent cases. That means, if you’re a teaching anesthesiologist, you can oversee up to (a) two resident cases, or (b) one resident case and one medically directed case, or (c) two SRNA cases, but no more. It’s the rule of two. You cannot be involved in a third case. (Yes, there is an exception, which we will get to later.) Similarly, if you are a teaching CRNA, you cannot supervise more than two SRNA cases.



Letter of the Law



Well, how do you know that picking up a third or fourth case in the teaching context is noncompliant? Beginning with the January 2010 update to the Medicare Claims Processing Manual (MCPM), Ch 12, Sec 50B, we’re told that the personally performed rate for an anesthesiologist applies where, among other things:



The physician is involved in the training of physician residents in a single anesthesia case, two concurrent anesthesia cases involving residents or a single anesthesia case involving a resident that is concurrent to another case paid under the medical direction rules.



The clear implication is that, since 2010, an anesthesiologist cannot be involved in more than two concurrent cases where even one involves a resident in order to bill the AA modifier (indicating personal performance). Where a teaching anesthesiologist is involved in two simultaneous resident cases, the anesthesiologist can bill AA for each.

In Sec 50C of that same MCPM chapter, we find the following:



The medical direction rules apply to cases involving student nurse anesthetists if the physician directs two concurrent cases, each of which involves a student nurse anesthetist, or the physician directs one case involving a student nurse anesthetist and another involving a CRNA, AA, intern or resident.



Again, the teaching anesthesiologist is limited to two cases if even one involves an SRNA. “Fine, but what about a teaching CRNA?” In a November 2009 transmittal (1859) from CMS, we read the following instruction:



[T]he teaching CRNA can be paid the full fee for his/her involvement in each of two concurrent anesthesia cases with student nurse anesthetists. To bill the base units, the teaching CRNA must be present with the student nurse anesthetist during the pre and post anesthesia care for each of the two cases involving student nurse anesthetists.



See a pattern developing? Again, the limit is two cases.



Exception to the Rule



People often talk about “the exception that proves the rule”; and, yes, there is an exception to the otherwise ironclad rule of two. But, if you look closely, it’s not really an exception. Let’s take a look at it. Both CMS and the ASA have acknowledged that an anesthesiologist can be involved in up to four “SRNA cases.” “But, you said that’s not allowed!” Yes, yes, but here’s what’s really going on with this so-called exception. You can oversee up to four SRNA rooms only where a CRNA is continually present in each of those rooms. That is, you’ve got four CRNAs with the four SRNAs. So, what’s really taking place in this scenario is the anesthesiologist is actually medically directing the four CRNAs, each of whom happens to have a student in the room with them.



So, to wind this up, we urge and adjure you to have protocols in place within your practice that will preclude, prohibit and prevent picking up a third case where any case involves a resident or SRNA (who is without a CRNA in the SRNA room). Raise this issue with your partners. Bring it up in your meetings. Train your staff. We’re asking you to toe the line on this one, because this one really matters.“
Nimbus! Thanks a million. This is the most explicit explanation to say what we were doing is okay (normal 1:3 or 1:4 MD:CRNA ratio with some SRNAs in some of the rooms). Far better than the "that's what we've always done," or "that rule's stupid, we will do what we want."

I really appreciate you sharing this, and putting my mind and my partners' minds at ease. While it seemed inane that adding SRNAs to the room would decrease the amount of CRNAs I can supervise, this is golden.
THANKS!
 
Nimbus! Thanks a million. This is the most explicit explanation to say what we were doing is okay (normal 1:3 or 1:4 MD:CRNA ratio with some SRNAs in some of the rooms). Far better than the "that's what we've always done," or "that rule's stupid, we will do what we want."

I really appreciate you sharing this, and putting my mind and my partners' minds at ease. While it seemed inane that adding SRNAs to the room would decrease the amount of CRNAs I can supervise, this is golden.
THANKS!
I'm glad you got an answer. Just don't tell sevo00...he's pretty "MD solo" anesthesia.
 
Top