Covid is cooking us like a pathology resident!

[Thr0mbus]

First we will stop the economy for 2 weeks to flatten the curve. Now look where we are!! Still I read people online hoping to make their Disney trip in June or cruise in July.

Reminds me of a pathology resident! Oh the job market is bad 2 weeks in. By year 4 it is like — If I keep my mouth shut and be a “team player” I might get that 2 year fellowship combo so that I can get a job interview for a fraction of what other 5-6 year PGY’s make!!

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[KeratinPearls]

Lol the job market pops up in every thread like it or not!

 

[y2k_free_radical]

First we will stop the economy for 2 weeks to flatten the curve. Now look where we are!! Still I read people online hoping to make their Disney trip in June or cruise in July.

Reminds me of a pathology resident! Oh the job market is bad 2 weeks in. By year 4 it is like — If I keep my mouth shut and be a “team player” I might get that 2 year fellowship combo so that I can get a job interview for a fraction of what other 5-6 year PGY’s make!!

We are at the point that continued lock downs will harm more people than the virus.A consult from an academic center took an extra week because the consultant only goes to the hospital once a week because of the WUHAN virus.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Good luck making money with restaurants and stores at half capacity. We are going to be at 20 percent unemployment in this country for years. This is a total mess. I feel bad for anyone trying to enter the pathology market. The pathologist unemployment rate is going to be pretty high.

If see any rural jobs, go for it. Rural is the best.

 

[D1b()4]

If see any rural jobs, go for it. Rural is the best.

Sometimes, you sound like a broken record. There are plenty of crappy rural jobs as well.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Ain't no such thing as a crappy rural job.

Go rural....make money......create empire.....leave pathology for greener pastures

 

[Guest8]

Ain't no such thing as a crappy rural job.

If you hate rural life, all rural jobs are crappy :/

 

[path24]

In pathology the job that is available to you will decide where you live. Usually not much of a choice or in some cases no choice. Only job you can get makes the decision really easy.

Really bad time to be finishing up training.

 

[KeratinPearls]

Ain't no such thing as a crappy rural job.

Go rural....make money......create empire.....leave pathology for greener pastures

You ain’t going to create an empire when there is nothing around. The smaller population residing there probably don’t make much.

Maybe you can buy some land, but that doesn’t mean anything when there nothing going on there. What are you going to do, buy farmland and milk cows?

Remember real estate...it’s about location, location, location. Go where there are people who have spending power and who have jobs.

I interviewed for a rural job. They paid slightly higher than what I will get in a suburb of a large metropolitan city. You probably would have to pay me 100k extra to go work there.

 

[KeratinPearls]

In pathology the job that is available to you will decide where you live. Usually not much of a choice or in some cases no choice. Only job you can get makes the decision really easy.

Really bad time to be finishing up training.

Agree. You have to take whatever comes to you in Path. You can’t always be picky and choosy.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

You ain’t going to create an empire when there is nothing around. The smaller population residing there probably don’t make much.

Maybe you can buy some land, but that doesn’t mean anything when there nothing going on there. What are you going to do, buy farmland and milk cows?

Remember real estate...it’s about location, location, location. Go where there are people who have spending power and who have jobs.

I interviewed for a rural job. They paid slightly higher than what I will get in a suburb of a large metropolitan city. You probably would have to pay me 100k extra to go work there.

There is usually a town or two nearby where people need housing, food, car repair, doggy daycare, nails done etc.

I really miss line dancing. Heard some tunes on willie's roadhouse last night that made me well up.

You should have taken that rural job. I think you would have learned to love it.

 

[intern_for_life]

Is the job market really that bad? It seems like most fellows were able to find jobs paying $200k to $250k per year. Is there anyone here who couldn't land a job paying at least 150K a year? I know this is lower relative to some other fields in medicine but also not bad considering it's similar to primary care money without the added stress of patient care. Anyone want to share if this seems about right?

 

[KeratinPearls]

There is usually a town or two nearby where people need housing, food, car repair, doggy daycare, nails done etc.

I really miss line dancing. Heard some tunes on willie's roadhouse last night that made me well up.

You should have taken that rural job. I think you would have learned to love it.

it was a rural Solo pathologist Position. Not at the point Of my career to go solo yet. I can see how opening up Rural businesses may be profitable if there Is not much competition And there is demand For your biz and customers have the money to pay for it.

if it’s profitable and worth the Hassle then I can see how someone would do it. You would need good people to help manage your business especially if you don’t have the time.

 

[Guest8]

Is the job market really that bad? It seems like most fellows were able to find jobs paying $200k to $250k per year. Is there anyone here who couldn't land a job paying at least 150K a year? I know this is lower relative to some other fields in medicine but also not bad considering it's similar to primary care money without the added stress of patient care. Anyone want to share if this seems about right?

Pharmacists at CVS make $150K. If you're happy with $150K/yr after 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, and 4-5 years of path residency, then good for you. I'm sure as hell not.

 

[KeratinPearls]

The lowest I’ve heard of was 180k in private practice but you got a bonus at the end of your first year to take you to lower 200s. Another job was in 2.5 hours from a large city. Only in Path do you get paid low for working in rural or semirural areas. Let me know if I’m wrong and there are other fields that pay low for rural or semirural jobs. Another job was 190k starting for outpatient lab in FL.

 

[intern_for_life]

Pharmacists at CVS make $150K. If you're happy with $150K/yr after 4 years of college, 4 years of med school, and 4-5 years of path residency, then good for you. I'm sure as hell not.

True but there must be some reason you were drawn to path instead of other specialties. Pharmacists still deal with rude customers and $150k is their ceiling. 150k is your minimum and no customers or patients, just you and your scope till you die.

 

[intern_for_life]

True but there must be some reason you were drawn to path instead of other specialties. Pharmacists still deal with rude customers and $150k is their ceiling. 150k is your minimum and no customers or patients, just you and your scope till you die.

I’m not even going to mention the possibility of you making 250k+ after a few years experience

 

[Guest8]

I’m not even going to mention the possibility of you making 250k+ after a few years experience

I make well more than $250K. Again, not the point. The point is that many other medical fields (if not most) manage their job market far, far better than ours. The physicians in those fields went through the same essential training yet have far better prospects at the end of their training. Settling for crap pay, zero recruitment, and no ability to choose the geographic location you prefer is bad. It isn't good. We shouldn't accept it as the norm when we know how much better other fields have it. Don't settle.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I make well more than $250K. Again, not the point. The point is that many other medical fields (if not most) manage their job market far, far better than ours. The physicians in those fields went through the same essential training yet have far better prospects at the end of their training. Settling for crap pay, zero recruitment, and no ability to choose the geographic location you prefer is bad. It isn't good. We shouldn't accept it as the norm when we know how much better other fields have it. Don't settle.

Agree. We can’t be complacent. I will continue to speak up for young grads who enter what I think is a suboptimal job market.

 

[Allegri]

True but there must be some reason you were drawn to path instead of other specialties. Pharmacists still deal with rude customers and $150k is their ceiling. 150k is your minimum and no customers or patients, just you and your scope till you die.

No customers? You have a lot to learn about pathology

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

Yea, didn't CAP teach us that every number is a life?

 

[intern_for_life]

No customers? You have a lot to learn about pathology

Maybe everyone is upset about having to move to find work? IMO the primary care work is way more stressful. Length of training is shorter but the stress is way higher. If you can land a job for 200k in pathology anywhere I think it’s still not bad these days.

 

[intern_for_life]

200k is not crap pay. The pharmacist making 150k at cvs is probably also having to move to an undesirable location and he has no real way of increasing his salary in the future. A pathologist could potentially start out in the dumpster at 200k...sure he trained 5 extra years but he will also probably enjoy his work and keep working till his last breath. Most pharmacists look pretty miserable talking to rude customers and they won’t ever be able to dream of 300k/yr with experience which is definitely possible in pathology as you get more marketable. Look I wish our market was perfect as well but let’s not ignore some of the advantages we enjoy compared to other fields. Pathology is still relatively low stress compared to primary care and even pharmacy. After residency you will live a happier life as long as you’re not stressed about that extra 50k you could be making in a more stressful environment.

 

[Thr0mbus]

200k is not crap pay. The pharmacist making 150k at cvs is probably also having to move to an undesirable location and he has no real way of increasing his salary in the future. A pathologist could potentially start out in the dumpster at 200k...sure he trained 5 extra years but he will also probably enjoy his work and keep working till his last breath. Most pharmacists look pretty miserable talking to rude customers and they won’t ever be able to dream of 300k/yr with experience which is definitely possible in pathology as you get more marketable. Look I wish our market was perfect as well but let’s not ignore some of the advantages we enjoy compared to other fields. Pathology is still relatively low stress compared to primary care and even pharmacy. After residency you will live a happier life as long as you’re not stressed about that extra 50k you could be making in a more stressful environment.

This is how LOSERS think.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

It is sad pathology is being compared to freaking pharmacy.

 

[intern_for_life]

This is how LOSERS think.

I came into the field with low expectations. People made me believe there is no job out there for a new fellow. I fully expect to struggle and earn below $200k for the first few years. But I come from humble beginnings so having to relocate and earn only $200k is a blessing for me. I can see how someone who passed up radiology or other fields and dreamed of earning more can be disappointed but most people entering pathology know what they're entering.
.

 

[intern_for_life]

Some people even do a fellowship in forensic pathology which reduces pay even more...like below 150K, are they losers too?

 

[intern_for_life]

It is sad pathology is being compared to freaking pharmacy.

Yup, if we just did pharmacy we not only would have saved 150k in loans, we would work earlier and make 500k more by the time we are out of fellowship. Total of 650k deficit compared to the lowly freakin pharmacist.

 

[Thr0mbus]

Some people even do a fellowship in forensic pathology which reduces pay even more...like below 150K, are they losers too?

It is how losers think. If you make such little money, it means someone else is taking YUUUUGE ADVANTAGE of you and FLEECING YOUR PAYCHECK or your skills or BOTH.

 

[intern_for_life]

It is how losers think. If you make such little money, it means someone else is taking YUUUUGE ADVANTAGE of you and FLEECING YOUR PAYCHECK or your skills or BOTH.

anyone who went to medical school discovered this after it was too late. There are doctors in every specialty comparing their lives/incomes to teachers, businessmen, PAs. There are people just trying to control the damage and get out doing something they can tolerate for the long term.

 

[Guest8]

anyone who went to medical school discovered this after it was too late. There are doctors in every specialty comparing their lives/incomes to teachers, businessmen, PAs. There are people just trying to control the damage and get out doing something they can tolerate for the long term.

I feel like you're still missing the point. It isn't like you're getting crap pay because pathology as a field pays poorly, or pathology isn't reimbursed well by insurers. That isn't the case at all. If you're doing a full FTE worth of anatomic pathology and getting $150-200K, you're getting screwed. Likely your full FTE of work is generating between $500K-$1M in annual revenue depending on the case mix. Even subtracting overhead and other payroll staff expenses, someone else is pocketing the hundreds of thousands of dollars that aren't going to you. They are able to do so because the job market is saturated and people like yourself are more than happy to accept terrible pay with a smile, just happy to eat the table scraps. This is why big labs have been able to buy out many practices, why many private practices don't even offer partnership track (why would they have to? You'll work for free!), this is why dermatologist/GI docs/urologists can open in-office labs and pay you $10/bottle, this is why academia can offer $120K/yr "junior attending" positions. Other people are keeping the money you're earning. You're making other people rich at your expense. And they've convinced you that you're lucky to even get that crap salary. THAT is the what your acceptance of low pay means.

 

[Spikebd]

Pathologists should be supporting the radical fringe who are willing to take a stand and ask for fair professional reimbursement. Why wouldn’t they?

 

[intern_for_life]

I feel like you're still missing the point. It isn't like you're getting crap pay because pathology as a field pays poorly, or pathology isn't reimbursed well by insurers. That isn't the case at all. If you're doing a full FTE worth of anatomic pathology and getting $150-200K, you're getting screwed. Likely your full FTE of work is generating between $500K-$1M in annual revenue depending on the case mix. Even subtracting overhead and other payroll staff expenses, someone else is pocketing the hundreds of thousands of dollars that aren't going to you. They are able to do so because the job market is saturated and people like yourself are more than happy to accept terrible pay with a smile, just happy to eat the table scraps. This is why big labs have been able to buy out many practices, why many private practices don't even offer partnership track (why would they have to? You'll work for free!), this is why dermatologist/GI docs/urologists can open in-office labs and pay you $10/bottle, this is why academia can offer $120K/yr "junior attending" positions. Other people are keeping the money you're earning. You're making other people rich at your expense. And they've convinced you that you're lucky to even get that crap salary. THAT is the what your acceptance of low pay means.

Idk about less than 200k but I would definitely be happy with 250k in a rural area. I see a lot of complaints about income in pathology which might be scaring people away. I just wanted to give my perspective. The people doing primary care do a much harsher residency. A lot of times during the day they don’t even get time to eat lunch in peace and not to mention the stress of rounding and new patients and H&Ps popping out of nowhere. Why don’t we mention the good parts of pathology we all enjoy. Most pathologists enjoy a relative stress free lifestyle and have a great life outside of medicine.

 

[Spikebd]

Idk about less than 200k but I would definitely be happy with 250k in a rural area. I see a lot of complaints about income in pathology which might be scaring people away. I just wanted to give my perspective. The people doing primary care do a much harsher residency. A lot of times during the day they don’t even get time to eat lunch in peace and not to mention the stress of rounding and new patients and H&Ps popping out of nowhere. Why don’t we mention the good parts of pathology we all enjoy. Most pathologists enjoy a relative stress free lifestyle and have a great life outside of medicine.

Many of these things are true; however, there is no need to settle for less money simply because you feel like a certain amount is “enough.” Does a dermatology PA who wants to set up their own boutique cash only clinic think this way? Stand up for yourself, or at least support those who will stand up for the profession.

 

[intern_for_life]

Many of these things are true; however, there is no need to settle for less money simply because you feel like a certain amount is “enough.” Does a dermatology PA who wants to set up their own boutique cash only clinic think this way? Stand up for yourself, or at least support those who will stand up for the profession.

I would gladly support anyone standing up for the profession. Problem is, these forums do nothing but add more negativity into our profession to the point that people are completely forgetting what makes pathology better than other specialties. We always talk about needing more AMGs in the field...well how about letting them know how great the lifestyle is and how great the field is. Look at psychiatry, everyone chasing lifestyle in that field and now it’s competitive again.

 

[gbwillner]

Man the grumpy old man stink is high in here today.

First, you can compare us with anything and anyone. Some bus drivers make $80K. How is it that football players, with NO graduate training, can make $20M a year? Face it, the world doesn't value us like it once did.

Also, I believe pharmacists also have to go to graduate school to get Pharmacy degrees. And do some sort of post-training indentured servitude. So from a money and time perspective it is not such a huge difference.

Lastly, yes, we should all get reimbursed a "fair share". However, I would argue that "those people" profiting off your professional services are also bringing the work to your lap, providing you with overheard, relieving you of management requirements, paying your bills... letting you sit back and push glass. Having run my own shop, the hardest part is getting the work in the first place.

 

[Guest8]

Man the grumpy old man stink is high in here today.

First, you can compare us with anything and anyone. Some bus drivers make $80K. How is it that football players, with NO graduate training, can make $20M a year? Face it, the world doesn't value us like it once did.

Also, I believe pharmacists also have to go to graduate school to get Pharmacy degrees. And do some sort of post-training indentured servitude. So from a money and time perspective it is not such a huge difference.

Lastly, yes, we should all get reimbursed a "fair share". However, I would argue that "those people" profiting off your professional services are also bringing the work to your lap, providing you with overheard, relieving you of management requirements, paying your bills... letting you sit back and push glass. Having run my own shop, the hardest part is getting the work in the first place.

Pharmacy schooling is generally combined with college for either a 5-6 year degree. They're done at age 23 or 24. No real comparison to MDs where the minimum to be done with school is college (age 22), then med school (age 26), then a minimum of 3 years of residency for the fastest programs (Family Med, etc) but really a minimum of 4 for pathology (AP only + fellowship or 5 AP/CP plus fellowship). No pathologist could have their first real job until age 30. Very big difference.

 

[intern_for_life]

Pharmacy schooling is generally combined with college for either a 5-6 year degree. They're done at age 23 or 24. No real comparison to MDs where the minimum to be done with school is college (age 22), then med school (age 26), then a minimum of 3 years of residency for the fastest programs (Family Med, etc) but really a minimum of 4 for pathology (AP only + fellowship or 5 AP/CP plus fellowship). No pathologist could have their first real job until age 30. Very big difference.

Majority of pharmacists make less than 100k, residency pays 50k...you’ll make that difference up in a decade or less

 

[Iceman24]

Some people even do a fellowship in forensic pathology which reduces pay even more...like below 150K, are they losers too?

Some of them don't have any loans; some of them have high-earning spouses; a lot do rely on public service loan forgiveness program.
A lot of counties offer participation in state retirement/pension system.
As of today there is no real job ad for ME/FP on NAME or AAFS board offering less then 150K, in fact most of the salaries offered are higher then my co-residents who stay in academia are getting paid; even some fellowships pay 120-150K.

 

[intern_for_life]

Some of them don't have any loans; some of them have high-earning spouses; a lot do rely on public service loan forgiveness program.
A lot of counties offer participation in state retirement/pension system.
As of today there is no real job ad for ME/FP on NAME or AAFS board offering less then 150K, in fact most of the salaries offered are higher then my co-residents who stay in academia are getting paid; even some fellowships pay 120-150K.

What is a realistic salary for FP in a rural area? I guess I was misinformed.

 

[Iceman24]

What is a realistic salary for FP in a rural area? I guess I was misinformed.

Dunno what is your personal definition of rural.
Morgantown WV and Bismark ND posted 255K and 270K at some point.
However, these are salaried positions and one have better chance to get a contract with coroner jurisdictions someplace Midwest or Rockies and bill them per case if looking for a big money.

 

[Spikebd]

Man the grumpy old man stink is high in here today.

First, you can compare us with anything and anyone. Some bus drivers make $80K. How is it that football players, with NO graduate training, can make $20M a year? Face it, the world doesn't value us like it once did.

Also, I believe pharmacists also have to go to graduate school to get Pharmacy degrees. And do some sort of post-training indentured servitude. So from a money and time perspective it is not such a huge difference.

Lastly, yes, we should all get reimbursed a "fair share". However, I would argue that "those people" profiting off your professional services are also bringing the work to your lap, providing you with overheard, relieving you of management requirements, paying your bills... letting you sit back and push glass. Having run my own shop, the hardest part is getting the work in the first place.

I agree. It does take work to get the business, and I think an ideal set up is one where you have a kind pathologist who treats his fellow pathologists fairly and doesn’t take an unreasonable cut of the profits. LADoc has already said this used to be the case more often than not, but that the current political environment is a lot less collegial. Sad.

 

[Spikebd]

I would gladly support anyone standing up for the profession. Problem is, these forums do nothing but add more negativity into our profession to the point that people are completely forgetting what makes pathology better than other specialties. We always talk about needing more AMGs in the field...well how about letting them know how great the lifestyle is and how great the field is. Look at psychiatry, everyone chasing lifestyle in that field and now it’s competitive again.

The people who choose psych for lifestyle should definitely think about pathology. For a lot of med students pathology would be a perfect field. Hours are about as good as it gets in medicine (while still being busy), mostly all day-time work, rare weekend work, you get your own office, you can work hard and establish yourself as an expert, you help patients and other doctors... the list goes on. A wise med student would consider these factors. Not many med students are that wise, though.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I would gladly support anyone standing up for the profession. Problem is, these forums do nothing but add more negativity into our profession to the point that people are completely forgetting what makes pathology better than other specialties. We always talk about needing more AMGs in the field...well how about letting them know how great the lifestyle is and how great the field is. Look at psychiatry, everyone chasing lifestyle in that field and now it’s competitive again.

AMGs will go into pathology if they enjoy Pathology. Nothing is stopping them. The job market is the probably one of the main issues for why some AMGs think twice about going into Path. I’ve met AMGs during my training. They went into it and were not deterred by what people online said. They couldn’t see themselves doing anything else. The oversupply in this field will continue until something changes. Although I think the job market has improved compared to 5-10 years ago, I’m not sure it’s strong as publications have concluded. I knew of few jobs near I wanted to live although I eventually got a job. I feel I got lucky.

One can always sign onto a job and move later to a better job. My advice is to do Pathology if you enjoy it.

 

[WEBB PINKERTON]

The people who choose psych for lifestyle should definitely think about pathology. For a lot of med students pathology would be a perfect field. Hours are about as good as it gets in medicine (while still being busy), mostly all day-time work, rare weekend work, you get your own office, you can work hard and establish yourself as an expert, you help patients and other doctors... the list goes on. A wise med student would consider these factors. Not many med students are that wise, though.

My niece is a psych and never leaves the house. She makes a heck of a lot more money than a pathologist with the same years of experience.

Psych is definitely a better field at the moment, no comparison.

 

[Spikebd]

My niece is a psych and never leaves the house. She makes a heck of a lot more money than a pathologist with the same years of experience.

Psych is definitely a better field at the moment, no comparison.

I’m not here to bash psych, it’s a pretty nice job. Path isn’t as bad as SDN makes out, but the SDN crowd brings up valid concerns about $$$ and the job market and average pathologists should be glad some radicals are willing to speak out on these issues.

 

[intern_for_life]

My niece is a psych and never leaves the house. She makes a heck of a lot more money than a pathologist with the same years of experience.

Psych is definitely a better field at the moment, no comparison.

Better in what sense? Do you like yapping all day or do you prefer looking at slides? Both great fields depending on your personality. A pathologist could be miserable in psych and vice versa. I feel like a lot of the pathologists ignore that one aspect. No patient interaction can be a beautiful thing to some, priceless even.

 

[KeratinPearls]

I’m not here to bash psych, it’s a pretty nice job. Path isn’t as bad as SDN makes out, but the SDN crowd brings up valid concerns about $$$ and the job market and average pathologists should be glad some radicals are willing to speak out on these issues.

Agree valid concerns about the job market and low starting salaries.

 

[LADoc00]

We are witnessing the single greatest tranformative event in human civilization since the industrial revolution.

If you are anywhere in a large urban center still (Chicago, NYC, Boston, Baltimore, Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Miami, Houston etc), be prepared suffer on all fronts.

"Rural deluxe" isnt just a nice option now, its merely a survival plan. Im focusing purely on contracts for super remote and undesirable rural critical access hospital pathology gigs. THAT is the future, the only future I see sustainable.

 

[intern_for_life]

We are witnessing the single greatest tranformative event in human civilization since the industrial revolution.

If you are anywhere in a large urban center still (Chicago, NYC, Boston, Baltimore, Seattle, Portland, SF, LA, Miami, Houston etc), be prepared suffer on all fronts.

"Rural deluxe" isnt just a nice option now, its merely a survival plan. Im focusing purely on contracts for super remote and undesirable rural critical access hospital pathology gigs. THAT is the future, the only future I see sustainable.

That doesn’t sound very encouraging