COVID19 and Residency Interviews 2020-2021

[radsisrad]

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Are med students excited about the possibility that you will not be forced to spend thousands of dollars on flights and hotels for the upcoming interview season?

Our program is considering the strong possibility that in-person interviews will not be a reasonable expectation this fall.

 

[throwaway1000000]

That would be pretty sweet.
I think a nice system to save money would be a 2 tier process where you do a first set of interviews through skype/telephone and then programs select their favorite candidates for an in-person interview. Basically like a real job interview. Sure this has its own set of problems but will save lots of money

 

[macbookproretina]

No. I would be extremely disappointed if I couldn't go see the programs in person. If I can't see the area, speak with residents, see the facilities, I don't know how I could make a fully informed decision.

 

[habibimarwan]

No. I would be extremely disappointed if I couldn't go see the programs in person. If I can't see the area, speak with residents, see the facilities, I don't know how I could make a fully informed decision.

Much better to skip, they say same things "no over-working, friendly staff, good teaching, good benefits, city has good things to do". Facilities dont matter any.

I like no travel idea.

 

[medstar11]

I am very much torn on this idea. Yes I would LOVE to save thousands of dollars I would've spent on residency interviews but on the other hand, I am applying to programs in areas I know little about so the trip would've been really helpful. I also don't feel like you can get a good vibe over a skype/facetime/zoom interview like you can in person.

 

[Dantrolene FC]

If that happens, you should interview at as many programs as possible. I mean, why not? I’d do 40 interviews if I could.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I worry being a DO applicant will hurt me an order of magnitudes more this cycle than it already would have.

 

[mehc012]

Hmm...as someone who just finished an ERAS cycle and is gearing up for another one this next season, I'm personally invested in both.
Logistically, it makes sense to do remote interviews. But part of what sold me on individual programs was the resident interactions. I'm afraid I would miss some of the red flags I saw this past season.

I think I'd still prefer in-person, but I suppose I won't be disappointed if it goes virtual.

 

[yeet]

Will programs interview more ppl if we move to Zoom interviews?

 

[Dantrolene FC]

Will programs interview more ppl if we move to Zoom interviews?

You have to assume so. If they interview more people, then you have to do more interviews. It's one big game. Do as many interviews as possible.

 

[Scrubs101]

Im perfectly fine in person, but painfully awkward over skype/facetime/zoom/any form of video chat. Please for the love of god no.

 

[libertyyne]

Any day I dont have to wear pants is a good one.

 

[aSagacious]

I may be in the minority, but I think it's likely that travel restrictions will be relaxed by the late summer (or fall at the latest)

 

[macbookproretina]

I may be in the minority, but I think it's likely that travel restrictions will be relaxed by the late summer (or fall at the latest)

That's not an unreasonable take, but would residency programs want med students flying from all over the place potentially bringing in COVID to the departments? Who knows

 

[Mass Effect]

I may be in the minority, but I think it's likely that travel restrictions will be relaxed by the late summer (or fall at the latest)

Has very little to do with travel restrictions.

I feel for you guys, I really do. This is a nightmare. But I don't think any hospital will allow med students to hop-scotch across the country from hospital to hospital. It's just not smart.

 

[aSagacious]

That's not an unreasonable take, but would residency programs want med students flying from all over the place potentially bringing in COVID to the departments? Who knows

Yes, because my hope is that people realize that the virus will be nearly ubiquitous at that point. We already have 500,000 confirmed cases in the US, with the total number of cases likely at least 10 times that amount. This represents about 1% of the population. By my back-of-the-envelope calculations based on the Hopkins data it'll be 3x the current amount 1 month from now and 7x the current amount 2 months from now (beginning of June).

 

[radsisrad]

I may be in the minority, but I think it's likely that travel restrictions will be relaxed by the late summer (or fall at the latest)

This might be the case. But programs must factor in worst-case scenarios. We are not sure that it will be reasonable to expect in-person interviews for all applicants.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Application numbers are going to go through the roof this year if in-person interviews get cancelled. Especially with the extra 3-5k we would have used for away rotations and travel to spend on our application.

 

[Porky_Pork_Chop_05]

Any thoughts on how much program directors will ask about/stress what we did during the crisis to "help out"? Not sure if I feel bad that I'm just studying for CK and not helping; or how much i'm negatively impacting my app lol

 

[pillowsnice]

Any thoughts on how much program directors will ask about/stress what we did during the crisis to "help out"? Not sure if I feel bad that I'm just studying for CK and not helping; or how much i'm negatively impacting my app lol

I'm doing the same. Other classmates are volunteering the life out of them. I've felt like this time alone has actually allowed me to re-energize after finishing clinical year as I am able to make my own schedule and overall just taking a BREAK from anything clinical. Do what you need to do, but I feel like studying for CK is a good enough answer.

 

[efle]

I wonder if we should be worried about the personalities of our co-residents.

Interview impressions are the #1, #2, and #3 factor in rank list order for a reason (no I am not exaggerating). I worry that interviewing over Zoom is going to lose most of the filter for the psycho/annoying/rude/whatever. Same thing with potential aways/auditions and other LoR issues. This cycle is def gonna favor the people who are better on paper

 

[aldol16]

Interviews and ERAS will almost certainly be moved back. Whether they'll do interviews in-person or not is anyone's guess but I'm guessing that it'll have a lot to do with whether we see a second-wave of this thing in the fall and/or if we get better data on the case fatality rate and how effectively the current and proposed measures are working.

Interview impressions are the #1, #2, and #3 factor in rank list order for a reason (no I am not exaggerating). I worry that interviewing over Zoom is going to lose most of the filter for the psycho/annoying/rude/whatever. Same thing with potential aways/auditions and other LoR issues. This cycle is def gonna favor the people who are better on paper

Away impressions are #1, 2, and 3. Interview impressions come after. Now you've removed both of these from the equation. I'm not sure it'll favor kids who are better on paper though. It'll almost certainly favor kids from top schools or with connections to make phone calls for them.

 

[efle]

Interviews and ERAS will almost certainly be moved back. Whether they'll do interviews in-person or not is anyone's guess but I'm guessing that it'll have a lot to do with whether we see a second-wave of this thing in the fall and/or if we get better data on the case fatality rate and how effectively the current and proposed measures are working.



Away impressions are #1, 2, and 3. Interview impressions come after. Now you've removed both of these from the equation. I'm not sure it'll favor kids who are better on paper though. It'll almost certainly favor kids from top schools or with connections to make phone calls for them.

I'd consider your school and who writes you letters to be part of your on-paper appeal. I'm thinking about those classmates with great scores, grades, and who kissed all the right asses, but that you'd never want to have as a coworker for the next 3+ years! Instead of a pre interview dinner and drinks and full interview day, now they just have to pretend to be normal/enjoyable for a 40 minute zoom call.

 

[longhaul3]

It would suck to miss out on in person interviews, but for surgical fields you have about 10 interviews with 2 interviewers in each room all asking why this specialty and what questions you have. If they let you prerecord your canned answers that you can screen over zoom, that would be beautiful.

Send out recordings answering the annoying stuff that get repeated hundreds of time during the interview season and have the interviews be conversational

This would be great, but most surgeon interviewers are terrible interviewers and would probably still fall back on the same questions. And there would be more time for the famous "what questions can I answer about the program?"

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Not going to lie, I think no in person interviews hurts DO's far more than no aways (as much as that hurts in and of itself). The interview was one last way to overcome biases and convince a program that it would be worth it to take a chance on you and put you higher on the rank list. Maybe I'm just pessimistic but I don't see the same outcome coming out of a Zoom interview in my closet lol.

Hopefully putting a good app on paper with some good LOR's (even if they are all from in house) is enough. It just sucks to have been on track to have the kind of chance you've been working towards for 3 years and then have it blown up by this kind of event.

 

[aldol16]

I'd consider your school and who writes you letters to be part of your on-paper appeal. I'm thinking about those classmates with great scores, grades, and who kissed all the right asses, but that you'd never want to have as a coworker for the next 3+ years! Instead of a pre interview dinner and drinks and full interview day, now they just have to pretend to be normal/enjoyable for a 40 minute zoom call.

I would say that even the majority of those people can feign being nice through a single interview day and social. I doubt that very many people get screened out for that specific reason at that stage. At least with aways, they would have to pretend for a month. Even then, it's hard. Because remember, these are the same people who by your definition were able to feign being nice to get excellent clinical grades.

 

[NontradICUdoc]

Will programs interview more ppl if we move to Zoom interviews?

Not necessarily. Programs need to take into account the availability of the faculty. Just because the person is not directly in front of you does not mean that the program will spend less time with each applicant to get more applicants. While it does take out the tour portion of the day, some programs such as mine, invite the applicants to the noon conferences so that they can see the kind of didactics we offer.

Remember, it is not just whether or not you like the place or it has a good name, but will they teach you to be a good physician in your future. Will the program prepare you for the subspecialty you are interested in.

The residents that give you the tour, are instructed to be 100% honest with the applicants. Programs that have something to hide is not a program you should consider. They tend to be malignant. We do not coach the residents to say anything. In fact, I do not even know which resident is doing the tour until the morning of the interviews and by the time those tours start, I am in the middle of interviewing the first or second group of applicants.

No matter how the interview is performed, always be 100% on top of your game. Dress to impress. Be prepared. Don't have your coffee next to you and then drink from it during the interview. And just in case, wear a nice set of pants. You may accidentally get up from your chair and show that you were wearing a nice top and have shorts or underwear on as well. That would be embarrassing and may be the death knell for that program.

 

[aSagacious]

Don't have your coffee next to you and then drink from it during the interview.

Is this faux pas? I do this all the time during Zoom meetings. And at interviews in real life...

 

[Smurfette]

Is this faux pas? I do this all the time during Zoom meetings. And at interviews in real life...

It is if you slurp.
I don't find sipping something while zooming or whatever a faux pas if it's a casual or normal work event.
I wouldn't drink a beverage on a video interview, but if I was offered a beverage at an in-person interview, I wouldn't be afraid to take a sip. But that's in part because an in person interview is a lot longer and with more extraneous meetings/tours/travel/etc. throughout the day whereas calling for a finite, planned period of time offers more ability to eat and hydrate when convenient off-screen.

And definitely wear pants with a suit. You never know if you are risking an embarrassing moment.

 

[aSagacious]

Paper just came out of Stanford confirming what we all thought. The number of actual cases is ~50-85x the number of confirmed cases. Few disclaimers: this was performed in Santa Clara County (high prevalence area) and testing has become more available since late February.

Looking at today's estimate of 750,000 confirmed cases and multiplying by the low-end estimate of 50-fold there may be 37.5 million actual cases (>10% of the US population). The authors' estimates for population prevalence were 2.5-4.2%.

I interpret this favorably, as it means we're farther along riding this out than previously thought and we're well on our way to exhausting the number of residual potential vectors.

 

[echidna001]

As someone who just went through the interview season, I think no in-person interviews would be extremely detrimental. Sure, it would save a lot of money, which is nice. But I had several programs that looked great on paper (including some of the top 10's) that really rubbed me the wrong way on interview day. I don't think I would have been able to get as good of a feel online and would have ranked these programs higher if it weren't for my interactions with residents at the pre-interview dinner and on interview day. My rank list really took that "interview day feel" into account. Plus, certain cities/towns sounded cool online but when I went to visit them, I realized they were not places I'd ever want to live. I also had some other programs that I thought I'd be less impressed with but left interview day absolutely loving. So I really think you need to go to truly know! I'll be really sad for the rising 4th years if they don't get to experience this. 🙁 If not, hopefully you at least get a match day and graduation!

 

[longhaul3]

As someone who just went through the interview season, I think no in-person interviews would be extremely detrimental. Sure, it would save a lot of money, which is nice. But I had several programs that looked great on paper (including some of the top 10's) that really rubbed me the wrong way on interview day. I don't think I would have been able to get as good of a feel online and would have ranked these programs higher if it weren't for my interactions with residents at the pre-interview dinner and on interview day. My rank list really took that "interview day feel" into account. Plus, certain cities/towns sounded cool online but when I went to visit them, I realized they were not places I'd ever want to live. I also had some other programs that I thought I'd be less impressed with but left interview day absolutely loving. So I really think you need to go to truly know! I'll be really sad for the rising 4th years if they don't get to experience this. 🙁 If not, hopefully you at least get a match day and graduation!

I agree. When I went through the application and interview season I threw a few apps out there on a whim based on location and clinical reputation. Ended up absolutely loving one of them, matched there, and couldn't have been happier. I probably would not have considered ranking it even in my top 5 if I hadn't interviewed there in person.

Up until interview season you can really only have a sense of 3-4 programs max, depending on how many aways you do. Visiting them for an interview isn't a perfect way to get to know them, and interview season gets really tiring after a while, but it's worth it to get a sense of which programs might fit you best.

 

[bananafish94]

Call me a hopeless optimist but I still think interviews are going to happen. We’re past the peak now and it seems like the vast majority of states are handling this very well and erring on the side of caution with social distancing mandates. Interviews aren’t until November at the earliest, assuming nothing gets pushed back which it very well may. Some specialties don’t even interview until January and February.

 

[Mass Effect]

Paper just came out of Stanford confirming what we all thought. The number of actual cases is ~50-85x the number of confirmed cases. Few disclaimers: this was performed in Santa Clara County (high prevalence area) and testing has become more available since late February.

Looking at today's estimate of 750,000 confirmed cases and multiplying by the low-end estimate of 50-fold there may be 37.5 million actual cases (>10% of the US population). The authors' estimates for population prevalence were 2.5-4.2%.

I interpret this favorably, as it means we're farther along riding this out than previously thought and we're well on our way to exhausting the number of residual potential vectors.

Except that the research we have shows those who with mild cases (and likely those asymptomatic), may not be immune. I don't think any of us are going to know how this shakes out until it actually does.

 

[Mass Effect]

Call me a hopeless optimist but I still think interviews are going to happen. We’re past the peak now and it seems like the vast majority of states are handling this very well and erring on the side of caution with social distancing mandates. Interviews aren’t until November at the earliest, assuming nothing gets pushed back which it very well may. Some specialties don’t even interview until January and February.

Not sure we're past the peak. The rate of increase isn't so high in the hotspots and NYC's numbers are finally stabilizing. This isn't the case for other hotspots as far as I know. The south and midwest likely haven't hit their peak yet (though they likely will soon with states opening up).

 

[aSagacious]

Except that the research we have shows those who with mild cases (and likely those asymptomatic), may not be immune.

Oh interesting. I hadn't heard that. Do you happen to have a source?

 

[Mass Effect]

Oh interesting. I hadn't heard that. Do you happen to have a source?

It was all over the MSM last week. Google it. It's research out of China. Hopefully we'll have some research out of Italy soon.

 

[aSagacious]

It was all over the MSM last week. Google it. It's research out of China. Hopefully we'll have some research out of Italy soon.

I believe intuitively that some persons with mild exposures may be insufficient to elicit a meaningful immune response. It will be interesting as we gather more data to quantify that. You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but I don't believe a single piece of "data" coming from China. 😉

 

[Mass Effect]

I believe intuitively that some persons with mild exposures may be insufficient to elicit a meaningful immune response. It will be interesting as we gather more data to quantify that. You'll have to pardon my skepticism, but I don't believe a single piece of "data" coming from China. 😉

It's all we've got right now and it makes sense.

 

[libertyyne]

It was all over the MSM last week. Google it. It's research out of China. Hopefully we'll have some research out of Italy soon.

Except that the chinese rate of reinfection was .01 and even that is questionable because they were clinically diagnosing people with covid and not running pcr. So it is possible those people who got "reinfected" never really had it to begin with.

Edit: The WHO said we dont know how long the immunity is going to last, not based on any data, but rather theoretically.

 

[Dro133]

A couple of relevant studies:

- Plasma was collected from 175 patients who had recovered from mild symptoms of SARS-Cov-2 and levels of neutralizing antibody was measured. Of these, 10/175 patients had neutralizing antibody levels below the detection of the investigators' assay (source).

- Here's one that sounds promising to me, although it wasn't done in humans. Rhesus monkeys were infected with SARS-CoV-2, and after symptoms were alleviated and tested positive for antibody, were re-challenged with the same dose of SARS-CoV-2. Virological, pathological, and radiological findings for SARS-CoV-2 were all negative at 5 days post-reingection (source).

Both studies were cited by this Nature News article.

 

[KnuxNole]

Our hospital system is expecting lockdown until July/August at a bare minimum, we still have covid meetings daily and they are expecting a “surge” this week or next week

I think programs are gonna lean more hesitantly on in person interviews for now. Hopefully things can get back to normal soon but doubtful before fall. I’m still bummed having to wait till 2021 for concerts and sporting events.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's research out of China.

Anything coming out of China isn't worth the price of the paper it was printed on.

 

[aldol16]

Paper just came out of Stanford confirming what we all thought. The number of actual cases is ~50-85x the number of confirmed cases. Few disclaimers: this was performed in Santa Clara County (high prevalence area) and testing has become more available since late February.

Looking at today's estimate of 750,000 confirmed cases and multiplying by the low-end estimate of 50-fold there may be 37.5 million actual cases (>10% of the US population). The authors' estimates for population prevalence were 2.5-4.2%.

I interpret this favorably, as it means we're farther along riding this out than previously thought and we're well on our way to exhausting the number of residual potential vectors.

Several problems with that study, one of them being possible selection in recruitment (the problem with any convenience sample).

Even if we take it at face value, 2-4% is not as high as one would like. It means that a very large chunk of the population is still susceptible. It does mean that the case fatality rate is much lower than originally thought, which is always a good thing as that will have implications for re-opening the economy. I would, however, love to see some SIR model output using the updated numbers.

 

[medstar11]

So another large aspect for interview season will be traveling. With all of the airlines significantly cutting the number of flights how does everyone think this will affect interview season? Will it cost more than previous years? Will it make it harder to go to multiple interviews due to access of flights especially for people wanting smaller community programs?

 

[watermelon master]

So another large aspect for interview season will be traveling. With all of the airlines significantly cutting the number of flights how does everyone think this will affect interview season? Will it cost more than previous years? Will it make it harder to go to multiple interviews due to access of flights especially for people wanting smaller community programs?

useless speculation

 

[Mh0311]

If there’s a second wave (do you guys think it’s likely?) it’ll coincide directly with interview season wouldn’t it

 

[kb1900]

Anything coming out of China isn't worth the price of the paper it was printed on.

Except that even for infection control policies our hospitals needed a week+ of HCWs grtting infected to upgrade from surgical mask/droplet precautions to N95/airborne etc. There was a massive host of covid infection control literature published January - March from other countries that wasn’t even considered “worth reading” until it was. Every single policy at every level from local hospital to national that currently exists has lagged by weeks to months for no good reason.


I personally think the bias against China is part of the problem in the US; it created the need to reinvent the wheel every single step of the way - some of that is warranted but we should steer towards the overly cautious side of things in that scenario.


I still remember posting in my class GroupMe about alibaba’s very thorough covid handbook and questioning why we were still on rotations in NYC early March and was told “that’s just Chinese propaganda” and “of course they just want to sell face masks”.....Now we have the feds confiscating imported/hospital acquired foreign ppe and auctioning it back to hospitals. We have hospital admin trying to make a full “Covid clean/contaminated” overhaul of the hospital areas 1 month into this thing

/end rant

 

[libertyyne]

Except that even for infection control policies our hospitals needed a week+ of HCWs grtting infected to upgrade from surgical mask/droplet precautions to N95/airborne etc. There was a massive host of covid infection control literature published January - March from other countries that wasn’t even considered “worth reading” until it was. Every single policy at every level from local hospital to national that currently exists has lagged by weeks to months for no good reason.


I personally think the bias against China is part of the problem in the US; it created the need to reinvent the wheel every single step of the way - some of that is warranted but we should steer towards the overly cautious side of things in that scenario.


I still remember posting in my class GroupMe about alibaba’s very thorough covid handbook and questioning why we were still on rotations in NYC early March and was told “that’s just Chinese propaganda” and “of course they just want to sell face masks”.....Now we have the feds confiscating imported/hospital acquired foreign ppe and auctioning it back to hospitals. We have hospital admin trying to make a full “Covid clean/contaminated” overhaul of the hospital areas 1 month into this thing

/end rant

I think there is a lot to be learned from the chinese experience about early shutdown, and subsequent return to normal, heck even the basic science work and procedures. However , i would question mortality and infection data , because not quesitoning it doesnt correspond with the fact that the ruling party will supress information that makes them look bad.

 

[kb1900]

I think there is a lot to be learned from the chinese experience about early shutdown, and subsequent return to normal, heck even the basic science work and procedures. However , i would question mortality and infection data , because not quesitoning it doesnt correspond with the fact that the ruling party will supress information that makes them look bad.

No doubt we should question the data - the acts of suppressing loud doctors speaks for itself. But questioning it is better than turning a blind eye to it during a global pandemic where they have the most information. if anything we should be pressuring them to share what they know and have both independent ID docs and third party organizations (like the WHO) audit that info