Cp Boards

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please indulge me here, but what exactly does it mean to pass one's boards? is it required to practice? get you a better salary? help you place into a fellowship? or is it just something that's nice to do, but doesn't really make a huge difference on a day to day basis? i've seen ads for jobs in various specialties saying they want a board certified/eligible physician, which makes me think that actually passing the boards is not required.

as to the original comment - yeah, that's a pretty scary-low pass rate - does anyone have info whether the pass rate is similarly low in other areas of medicine?
 
mlw03 said:
please indulge me here, but what exactly does it mean to pass one's boards? is it required to practice? get you a better salary? help you place into a fellowship? or is it just something that's nice to do, but doesn't really make a huge difference on a day to day basis? i've seen ads for jobs in various specialties saying they want a board certified/eligible physician, which makes me think that actually passing the boards is not required.

as to the original comment - yeah, that's a pretty scary-low pass rate - does anyone have info whether the pass rate is similarly low in other areas of medicine?
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You have to pass boards to practice and sign out cases, as far as I'm aware.

Internal medicine is a bit different...cuz after residency you can set up your own practice. If you didn't take or pass medicine boards, you basically advertise yourself as "board eligible" instead of "board certified".

The relatively poor pass rate for CP boards reflects the state of CP education in this country.

coyote-poop.jpg
 
Well, the timing would be right - board scores were mailed out on the 25th. The ABPath website doesn't have anything like a score summary (that I could find anyway), so perhaps it is inside info.
 
I knew when I left Tampa that I failed CP, but that clinches it.
 
simonsays said:
I knew when I left Tampa that I failed CP, but that clinches it.
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Yeah but that's what everybody says. If failure was determined by how many people think they failed it immediately afterwards, failure rate would be about 75% for CP.
 
AndyMilonakis said:
You have to pass boards to practice and sign out cases, as far as I'm aware.
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I'm pretty sure that one can signout cases as board eligible (there might be some rule about oversight or co-signing)

But think about it, you take boards in June and you don't know till august.. You might be in a job by then (if you dont do a fellowship), and should be S/O cases...

Any of the practicing docs care to verify one way or the other?
 
All someone legally needs to sign-out cases is a medical license, I think. And as far as I know, people have no trouble getting hospital privileges and being reimbursed as "board-eligible" pathologists. If you loose your board eligible status, then you probably will have trouble keeping your job, billing certain insurance companies, and getting hospital privileges.
 
torero said:
All someone legally needs to sign-out cases is a medical license, I think. And as far as I know, people have no trouble getting hospital privileges and being reimbursed as “board-eligible” pathologists. If you loose your board eligible status, then you probably will have trouble keeping your job, billing certain insurance companies, and getting hospital privileges.
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The ABP does not officially recognize the term "board eligible". If an insurance company or employer asks them for verification of your board eligibility, they dont provide anything.

There are people who *never* as far as I know become board certified but still sign out surgicals, direct CP lab and in general make more money than I do, ironically. If you stay put in your job, then maintaining is very easy. I have never heard of someone having their staff priveleges revoked for failing the boards, BUT having job mobility requires you eventually become board certified. As far as billing insurance companies, Im not aware of any issues other than you are fully licensed physician. Im fairly certain denying billing based on BE/BC status might even be illegal.

That is my take on it at least.
 
I'm not that worried about the 50% fail rate. I scored a 261 on step 1 a number of years ago, and I am sure that is the top 1% of all medical students. Surely, I haven't slipped up to the point where I am in the bottome 50% of pathologists in terms of being able to learn a body of material and then take a multiple choice test on the subjects.
 
dermpathlover said:
I'm not that worried about the 50% fail rate. I scored a 261 on step 1 a number of years ago, and I am sure that is the top 1% of all medical students. Surely, I haven't slipped up to the point where I am in the bottome 50% of pathologists in terms of being able to learn a body of material and then take a multiple choice test on the subjects.
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😴
 
dermpathlover said:
I'm not that worried about the 50% fail rate. I scored a 261 on step 1 a number of years ago, and I am sure that is the top 1% of all medical students. Surely, I haven't slipped up to the point where I am in the bottome 50% of pathologists in terms of being able to learn a body of material and then take a multiple choice test on the subjects.
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Oh yeah, sure.
Actually with Step I scores like that you can just take a pass on Path Boards. Just let them know, actually if you give them you MCAT and SAT scores, they might just start giving you those big paychecks you are wanting...

Not sure if your friend Vince Vaughn will be the one who gives them to you.
Swingers-Poster-I10134298.jpeg



That score is NOT the top 1% of medical students (maybe 2-5%) , and then you have to cut off whatever % fail, because if they never pass they aren't taking boards.
 
djmd said:
Oh yeah, sure.
Actually with Step I scores like that you can just take a pass on Path Boards. Just let them know, actually if you give them you MCAT and SAT scores, they might just start giving you those big paychecks you are wanting...

Not sure if your friend Vince Vaughn will be the one who gives them to you.
Swingers-Poster-I10134298.jpeg



That score is NOT the top 1% of medical students (maybe 2-5%) , and then you have to cut off whatever % fail, because if they never pass they aren't taking boards.
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The year I took it I think the Mean was 216 with an SD of 17, so I was for sure 2.5 units of S.D over the mean. A score of 261 5-6 years ago was for sure in the top 1% of the country. I rocked the SAT, I rocked MCAT, I rocked the USMLE exams why wouldn't I rock Path boards (or at least be better than half of the applicants)?
 
dermpathlover said:
The year I took it I think the Mean was 216 with an SD of 17, so I was for sure 2.5 units of S.D over the mean. A score of 261 5-6 years ago was for sure in the top 1% of the country. I rocked the SAT, I rocked MCAT, I rocked the USMLE exams why wouldn't I rock Path boards (or at least be better than half of the applicants)?
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I'm just amazed you didn't mention the RISE.

In actuality, I wasn't that worried when I heard the pass rate was 80%. Because knowing that there are a lot of people who have the difficulty of taking the hardest test of their life in a language other than their own, and then there are residents who attend programs where they don't see a lot of volume or get a lot of teaching. And, of course, as with everything, there are just going to be a bunch of *******es in every profession. Thus, I figured it you factored out all of those people, the pass rate was probably fairly high (thus was how I rationalized it to myself). But a pass rate of 50% suggests mere random chance rather than knowledge base.
 
yaah said:
But a pass rate of 50% suggests mere random chance rather than knowledge base.
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Yep. Welcome to the Jungle. Im so glad my lifetime AP/CP credential is sitting framed on my wall. Even if you did pass it the first time, forget passing it agin 10 years from now!
 
Shouldn't there be some sort of reasonable expectation of the ABP that a well trained, competent pathologist should be able to pass the boards with not too much difficulty?

It doesn't make much sense to me. If the purpose of the boards is to have fewer people pass, and thus decrease the # of pathologists, then the proper thing to do would be to decrease the # of residency spots, instead of making people waste 4-6 years of their lives.

If the purpose is to make sure programs are teaching the right material, then obviously this isn't happening and intervention needs to happen at a training program administration level, not at the level of the candidate.

However, if the purpose is simply to make $$$ for the abpath, this is a marvelous method.
 
yaah said:
However, if the purpose is simply to make $$$ for the abpath, this is a marvelous method.
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DING DING DING....
Give that man a prize...


Or more TV style...

Show me "Money"
FamilyFeud%20Inside.JPG

Number #1 answer!
 
yaah said:
However, if the purpose is simply to make $$$ for the abpath, this is a marvelous method.
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And let us not forget about all the Medicare money the programs would be missing out on if the number of residency spots were to dry up.
 
By some gross miscalculation on the part of the ABP, I actually passed. This makes me question the 46% statistic quoted earlier.

I did not score in the top 10th percentile on Step 1 or even close to it. To be honest, I didn't even beat the mean. I don't think the SAT's could ever be used to approximate the nightmare that is the AP/CP boards. And I didn't take the MCAT so I have no stats to contribute there. I did, however, get a Presidential physical fitness award in 6th grade, perhaps that explains it.
 
yaah said:
Maybe it was 46% of repeat test takers or something.
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That sounds more plausible, although who knows. I saw a Fred Silva lecture back in 2004 that presented board pass rate data. Failure rate first time takers was around 30%, and for second timers it is was around 50%.
 
Havarti666 said:
That sounds more plausible, although who knows. I saw a Fred Silva lecture back in 2004 that presented board pass rate data. Failure rate first time takers was around 30%, and for second timers it is was around 50%.
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I think that is ~30% for all takers and nearly 50% for repeaters.
I may try to dig that up off of the ABPs webpage..

And I did: 2001-05
Failure rates
CP Total 35.11% First timers 25.43% Repeaters 59.52%

If 46% failed CP overall that is a pretty big increase especially because there were nearly twice the number of people taking it for the first time this year...
Of course this year is the first year off the curve based pass/fail so it is possible to have a variance like that...
 
dermpathlover said:
The year I took it I think the Mean was 216 with an SD of 17, so I was for sure 2.5 units of S.D over the mean. A score of 261 5-6 years ago was for sure in the top 1% of the country. I rocked the SAT, I rocked MCAT, I rocked the USMLE exams why wouldn't I rock Path boards (or at least be better than half of the applicants)?
Click to expand...

Wow. How very impressive. Please allow me to introduce a little concept that I like to refer to as reality. I have been doing this for a while now and I know many folks who have taken the AP/CP and various subspecialty exams. I can say in all certainty that ANYONE is capable of failing this exam. It is nothing like the SAT, MCAT, or USMLE that you performed so scarry well on. This is a bear of a test, in all probablity the single hardest exam in all of medicine. I have seen incredibly bright and accomplished (far more accomplished than those above stats, btw) people fail (at least) one part of the AP/CP. Conversely, I have seen more than a few less than impresive individuals pass on their first attempt. So, please don't post your cv assuming that someone as scarry smart as you simply has to just show up and breeze right through this. You very well may be shocked.

btw, that elitist and entitled attitude won't play real well out in the real world.
 
pathdawg said:
btw, that elitist and entitled attitude won't play real well out in the real world.
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Yeah but the great thing about an attitude like that is if things go well, fine, and if things don't go well, it's a conspiracy/racism/jealousy/etc.
 
pathdawg said:
Wow. How very impressive. Please allow me to introduce a little concept that I like to refer to as reality. I have been doing this for a while now and I know many folks who have taken the AP/CP and various subspecialty exams. I can say in all certainty that ANYONE is capable of failing this exam. It is nothing like the SAT, MCAT, or USMLE that you performed so scarry well on. This is a bear of a test, in all probablity the single hardest exam in all of medicine. I have seen incredibly bright and accomplished (far more accomplished than those above stats, btw) people fail (at least) one part of the AP/CP. Conversely, I have seen more than a few less than impresive individuals pass on their first attempt. So, please don't post your cv assuming that someone as scarry smart as you simply has to just show up and breeze right through this. You very well may be shocked.

btw, that elitist and entitled attitude won't play real well out in the real world.
Click to expand...

It is not an elitist attitude. It is just one of self-confidence and not cockiness. I have consistently scored at the top of all "multiple choice" tests I have ever taken. Why would the boards be any different? It is the hardest test, but it is the hardest for everybody. Why would I go from always being in the top 2-3% to being in the bottom 30%? And it is not because I am the smartest, it is because I have a knack for multiple choice tests. Plus I am already studying for the boards and in my last year I'll study until my nuts are bloody.
 
dermpathlover said:
It is not an elitist attitude. It is just one of self-confidence and not cockiness. I have consistently scored at the top of all "multiple choice" tests I have ever taken. Why would the boards be any different? It is the hardest test, but it is the hardest for everybody. Why would I go from always being in the top 2-3% to being in the bottom 30%? And it is not because I am the smartest, it is because I have a knack for multiple choice tests. Plus I am already studying for the boards and in my last year I'll study until my nuts are bloody.
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You're a piece of work, man. Seriously, I wish you nothing but success.
 
Well, everybody here has passed CP boards so far that took it this past year. The letter doesn't include anything except "congratulations" if you passed, no score breakdown or % passing or anything.
 
yaah said:
Well, everybody here has passed CP boards so far that took it this past year. The letter doesn't include anything except "congratulations" if you passed, no score breakdown or % passing or anything.
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Eh? The letter should breakdown each CP and AP category along with a %le rank, the top being top25%le. I cant remember the exact wording, but something like:
Clinical Pathology......overall score: Highest Quartile
Red Cell Disorders......................Highest Quartile
etc. something like that anyway.

I know for a fact it used to be that way because I ran around carrying it for the longest time to punk down anyone who disagreed with my diagnoses...childish, yes I know.
 
Apparently it doesn't - isn't that weird? What people say is that it only breaks down each category with percentile if you FAIL, not if you pass. If you pass, all you get is "congratulations." I haven't actually seen a letter but I doubt people are lying to me...
 
yaah said:
Apparently it doesn't - isn't that weird? What people say is that it only breaks down each category with percentile if you FAIL, not if you pass. If you pass, all you get is "congratulations." I haven't actually seen a letter but I doubt people are lying to me...
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No way, yes there is an official appearing letter that says congrats but there is a whole packet of stuff you get. That is like 1 page of 5-6 if I remember right.
 
LADoc00 said:
Eh? The letter should breakdown each CP and AP category along with a %le rank, the top being top25%le. I cant remember the exact wording, but something like:
Clinical Pathology......overall score: Highest Quartile
Red Cell Disorders......................Highest Quartile
etc. something like that anyway.
Click to expand...
My hemepath results had the breakdown with highest third, middle third, and lowest third for each section. If you remember red cell disorders as one of the sections, you may be remembering your hemepath results.

For AP/CP boards the year before, they sent a sheet with the sections in order of what I did best. There were no indications of how I performed relative to others taking the test.
 
LADoc00 said:
No way, yes there is an official appearing letter that says congrats but there is a whole packet of stuff you get. That is like 1 page of 5-6 if I remember right.
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Well, maybe they get that later - because they haven't gotten it yet.
 
RyMcQ said:
My hemepath results had the breakdown with highest third, middle third, and lowest third for each section. If you remember red cell disorders as one of the sections, you may be remembering your hemepath results.

For AP/CP boards the year before, they sent a sheet with the sections in order of what I did best. There were no indications of how I performed relative to others taking the test.
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This is correct. When you pass, they tell you had you did on different areas relative to yourself. They do not indicate your percentile relative to the other test takers.
 
pathdawg said:
This is correct. When you pass, they tell you had you did on different areas relative to yourself. They do not indicate your percentile relative to the other test takers.
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Just to clarify, they did report by top third, etc. (tertile?), my performance relative to others taking the heme exam. Maybe they are just changing the format of the report from year to year.

So for the record, the 2004 AP/CP report only ranked sections by what I did best and what I did worst. The 2005 heme report told me how I did relative to other test takers.
 
RyMcQ said:
Just to clarify, they did report by top third, etc. (tertile?), my performance relative to others taking the heme exam. Maybe they are just changing the format of the report from year to year.

So for the record, the 2004 AP/CP report only ranked sections by what I did best and what I did worst. The 2005 heme report told me how I did relative to other test takers.
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I have seen old (10+ year old) AP/CP board letters that actually broke the score down to single percentile rankings. So things have changed and are changing over time.
 
If you passed, there are only four pages. The first one just says congrats, you were successful in the combined AP/CP exam, you are now a diplomate of the ABP. The second page is a similar letter that is addressed to whom it may concern. The third and fourth pages are just info about maintenance of certification. There is no breakdown as in past years. I don't know if this is because they changed the grading scheme. Since there is no longer a curve they may not be giving us this info as to how we did relative to others since they're not looking at that data to determine passing/failing.
 
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