CPOE Problems

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Sparda29

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So now that my hospital finally has CPOE, I've noticed some changes.

We don't get calls from nurses looking for missing meds anymore, just messages on the CPOE system. However, a lot of nurses seem to think that we are the tech support for the hospital. "I don't see the order on my MAR, what should I do, etc."
 
"I don't see the order on my MAR, what should I do, etc."

Better get used to it, earn some social capital and help them through it.

"Can you retime my dose? It turned red on my MAR" is my favorite.
 
I would if I could, I just know how to look up labs, notes and enter/verify orders.

you can't modify administration times on there? you should be able to.

docs order abx's all the time and inadvertently have them start at the next standardized Q12h dosing time when they really want them given now.
 
You should be able to retime things for your standard admin times. Just do one time dose and then time for next admin time.

Don't you have a CPOE help desk/IT person for your transition?!
 
Don't you have a CPOE help desk/IT person for your transition?!

Silly lea, that's pharmacy's job! :laugh:

In all seriousness, at my hospital we had IT support when CPOE first began, but that didn't last very long. It seems like whatever help they gave the MDs and RNs in learning CPOE went in one ear and out the other - two years after we implemented CPOE, I'm still getting people who don't know which field is the dose field or who put one set of instructions in the "frequency" field and another in the comments. :bang:

Retiming meds is something that pharmacy should be allowed to do, and like everyone else I'm surprised they haven't shown you how. What computer system do you guys use, Sparda?
 
Wait, why should you retime the dose? If the nurse delivers it very late, it should reflect that on the MAR, shouldn't it? Like, this was due at 9 but hung at 10:30...that is important to know as opposed to "actually due at nine, retimed for 10:30, hung at 10:30".
 
Silly lea, that's pharmacy's job! :laugh:

In all seriousness, at my hospital we had IT support when CPOE first began, but that didn't last very long. It seems like whatever help they gave the MDs and RNs in learning CPOE went in one ear and out the other - two years after we implemented CPOE, I'm still getting people who don't know which field is the dose field or who put one set of instructions in the "frequency" field and another in the comments. :bang:

Retiming meds is something that pharmacy should be allowed to do, and like everyone else I'm surprised they haven't shown you how. What computer system do you guys use, Sparda?

Actually we can retime meds, just checked today.
 
Wait, why should you retime the dose? If the nurse delivers it very late, it should reflect that on the MAR, shouldn't it? Like, this was due at 9 but hung at 10:30...that is important to know as opposed to "actually due at nine, retimed for 10:30, hung at 10:30".

Agreed. Nurse do this because they were late on giving meds and want to cover their butts or else they get in trouble with their boss.

Was pt off the floor? Pharmacy didn't send meds on time? That's reasonable to retime. But if the nurses just forgot or got lazy, you shouldn't cover their mistakes. Not good for the patients nor the pharmacy operations.

Note that CMS expects hospitals to have a list of time critical medications that needs to be given within a 30 minute window. And the timeliness of administration is supposed to be evaluated.
 
Silly lea, that's pharmacy's job! :laugh:

In all seriousness, at my hospital we had IT support when CPOE first began, but that didn't last very long. It seems like whatever help they gave the MDs and RNs in learning CPOE went in one ear and out the other - two years after we implemented CPOE, I'm still getting people who don't know which field is the dose field or who put one set of instructions in the "frequency" field and another in the comments. :bang:

Retiming meds is something that pharmacy should be allowed to do, and like everyone else I'm surprised they haven't shown you how. What computer system do you guys use, Sparda?

We had a ton of extra IT help for about a month after our new system. I feel like everyone has gotten the basics except the providers. I don't know if they didn't get the help, didn't ask questions, or didn't listen when IT/pharmacy told them the right way, but it's frustrating. I still play nice and politely explain the right way every time, but man.. if everyone else can get it, why can't physicians? It really isn't that hard.

As for retiming meds, we evaluate if it's appropriate or not. Nursing has the ability to retime x1, otherwise it has to be done by pharmacy. If it's appropriate we will. If it's just because, we won't. Not to say we won't retime things to make it easier for nursing. If it's impossible to give something at the scheduled time because of other things going on, that's reasonable. If it's because you don't feel like doing it then, too bad.

Nurses are your best friends and worst enemies in a hospital. Take care of them and they'll take care of you. My job is 100x easier because I help my nurses but I will never do something unreasonable and I'm not afraid to say no. When I say no, they don't argue. When I insist on looking into something more, they understand. This is because I've proven that I listen to them and don't take anything lightly. Even if it isn't exactly my job, it's better to provide the simple IT support than to send them to IT who won't understand. I prove my worth, patient gets the care they need.

Anyway... time to get off my soapbox.
 
Note that CMS expects hospitals to have a list of time critical medications that needs to be given within a 30 minute window. And the timeliness of administration is supposed to be evaluated.
I thought I heard that this was changed because it lead to people rushing and more errors were made? I can definitely see how it could be hard to do a med pass for an entire unit between 7:45 and 8:15.
 
We had a ton of extra IT help for about a month after our new system. I feel like everyone has gotten the basics except the providers. I don't know if they didn't get the help, didn't ask questions, or didn't listen when IT/pharmacy told them the right way, but it's frustrating. I still play nice and politely explain the right way every time, but man.. if everyone else can get it, why can't physicians? It really isn't that hard.
.


When our hospital system started doing e-scripts, I was scheduled for a 30 minute "training session" that was located in a separate building (away from my office or any clinical sites). They scheduled it on a day that I had to round in the ICU in the morning and had a full clinic in the afternoon (so I had to round in the ICU, run to this off-site to do my 30 minute training (it was raining that day), then run back to my clinic site so I can start seeing patients). And the training session was a generic training session, not geared towards providers (so the part that I actually had to know was in the last 5-10 minutes). Would have stayed to try it out in the simulated training session - but I was already running late.

And that training session was 2 months before it went live.

And the day it went live - well, there was one IT person in clinic (to answer any questions the nurses/physicians had). The problem was that he wasn't in the rooms - just in our coffee break room, waiting for us to come to him for issues. For the most part, since I'm part of this younger generation, it was easy to figure out. But the older docs (in their 50s-80s) had a lot of trouble (they're the one who type with one fingers, and still dictate their notes). While most features can be self-learn, there are others that are not intuitive unless someone points them out to you. Fortunately our e-script ordering system is similar to our CPOE system so I didn't have trouble. But at my hospital (where there are lots of students, residents, and fellows), some of the attendings don't even know how to enter orders since they are used to having the fellows/residents do it for them ... and suddenly you're asking them to enter e-scripts. It was a big learning curve for a lot of them.

So when our facility started to e-prescribe, it was 2 months since I've had my "training session" which I honestly don't remember. In the meanwhile, I had to do other mandatory stuff (training on how to initiate our new alcohol CIWA protocol on the computer, corporate HIPAA annual training and recertification, renew my ATLS, BLS, and ACLS (they all expired around the same time 😡 ) . I'm sure the pharmacists in my area went crazy the day that our e-prescribe went live.

And that's just e-prescribing. Going from paper order to CPOE - I'm sure that was a bigger shock and a bigger learning curve (and knowing administrators, training of providers on using CPOE was probably not well thought out, and just added onto the schedule of an already busy schedule)


*at another hospital (a community hospital), there are many provider groups contracted to work at this hospital (I think Internal Medicine has 4 different groups working at this hospital). Each groups have their own physicians/PAs/NPs. So they're having trouble getting all the providers in all the groups to use the EMR that they just implemented. (the hospital can't really threaten the groups since they are private groups with privileges at the hospital and they want these groups to admit their patients to their hospital (and do procedures at their hospital) and not send patients to the competing hospital system across town - so if they crack down too hard or make it too difficult, these groups can just switch their affiliation and send their patients elsewhere). It's all local politics (and money).

Anyway, just a perspective on why it is difficult for some providers to use CPOE. (at the VA, it takes a few days to get used to their CPOE system because it's not the most user friendly system, and different from what I'm used to, so I have to relearn and retrain my mind when I'm at the VA and I'm ordering stuff)
 
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When our hospital system started doing e-scripts, I was scheduled for a 30 minute "training session" that was located in a separate building (away from my office or any clinical sites). They scheduled it on a day that I had to round in the ICU in the morning and had a full clinic in the afternoon (so I had to round in the ICU, run to this off-site to do my 30 minute training (it was raining that day), then run back to my clinic site so I can start seeing patients). And the training session was a generic training session, not geared towards providers (so the part that I actually had to know was in the last 5-10 minutes). Would have stayed to try it out in the simulated training session - but I was already running late.

And that training session was 2 months before it went live.

And the day it went live - well, there was one IT person in clinic (to answer any questions the nurses/physicians had). The problem was that he wasn't in the rooms - just in our coffee break room, waiting for us to come to him for issues. For the most part, since I'm part of this younger generation, it was easy to figure out. But the older docs (in their 50s-80s) had a lot of trouble (they're the one who type with one fingers, and still dictate their notes). While most features can be self-learn, there are others that are not intuitive unless someone points them out to you. Fortunately our e-script ordering system is similar to our CPOE system so I didn't have trouble. But at my hospital (where there are lots of students, residents, and fellows), some of the attendings don't even know how to enter orders since they are used to having the fellows/residents do it for them ... and suddenly you're asking them to enter e-scripts. It was a big learning curve for a lot of them.

So when our facility started to e-prescribe, it was 2 months since I've had my "training session" which I honestly don't remember. In the meanwhile, I had to do other mandatory stuff (training on how to initiate our new alcohol CIWA protocol on the computer, corporate HIPAA annual training and recertification, renew my ATLS, BLS, and ACLS (they all expired around the same time 😡 ) . I'm sure the pharmacists in my area went crazy the day that our e-prescribe went live.

And that's just e-prescribing. Going from paper order to CPOE - I'm sure that will be a bigger shock and a bigger learning curve (and knowing administrators, training of providers on using CPOE was probably not well thought out, and just added onto the schedule of an already busy schedule)


*at another hospital (a community hospital), there are many provider groups contracted to work at this hospital (I think Internal Medicine has 4 different groups working at this hospital). Each groups have their own physicians/PAs/NPs. So they're having trouble getting all the providers in all the groups to use the EMR that they just implemented. (the hospital can't really threaten the groups since they are private groups with privileges at the hospital and they want these groups to admit their patients to their hospital (and do procedures at their hospital) and not send patients to the competing hospital system across town - so if they crack down too hard or make it too difficult, these groups can just switch their affiliation and send their patients elsewhere). It's all local politics (and money).

Anyway, just a perspective on why it is difficult for some providers to use CPOE. (at the VA, it takes a few days to get used to their CPOE system because it's not the most user friendly system, and different from what I'm used to, so I have to relearn and retrain my mind when I'm at the VA and I'm ordering stuff)


This is one thing I hate about my hospital. The only residents here are orthopedic surgery residents. I'd rather deal with clueless residents and veteran hospitalists all day instead of private practice *******s who once they leave the building are almost impossible to get a hold of, and when you do get a hold of them, they want you to just keep everything the way they ordered it.
 
I've built relationships with a bunch of physicians and they've given me implicit license to "do whatever i need to do to fix it" so I set the level a bit higher as to when I page them.

Operationally, physicians with privileges that come in only every so often start mucking things up (lots of therapy duplication that i can't "just fix") and it's a pain to contact them because they have a different paging service (via their offices) and nurses are calling us wondering where orders are.

That's an easy answer though...hands are tied, paged the MD/DO, bug us later. But it's bad for patient care.
 
When our hospital system started doing e-scripts, I was scheduled for a 30 minute "training session" that was located in a separate building (away from my office or any clinical sites). They scheduled it on a day that I had to round in the ICU in the morning and had a full clinic in the afternoon (so I had to round in the ICU, run to this off-site to do my 30 minute training (it was raining that day), then run back to my clinic site so I can start seeing patients). And the training session was a generic training session, not geared towards providers (so the part that I actually had to know was in the last 5-10 minutes). Would have stayed to try it out in the simulated training session - but I was already running late.

And that training session was 2 months before it went live.

And the day it went live - well, there was one IT person in clinic (to answer any questions the nurses/physicians had). The problem was that he wasn't in the rooms - just in our coffee break room, waiting for us to come to him for issues. For the most part, since I'm part of this younger generation, it was easy to figure out. But the older docs (in their 50s-80s) had a lot of trouble (they're the one who type with one fingers, and still dictate their notes). While most features can be self-learn, there are others that are not intuitive unless someone points them out to you. Fortunately our e-script ordering system is similar to our CPOE system so I didn't have trouble. But at my hospital (where there are lots of students, residents, and fellows), some of the attendings don't even know how to enter orders since they are used to having the fellows/residents do it for them ... and suddenly you're asking them to enter e-scripts. It was a big learning curve for a lot of them.

So when our facility started to e-prescribe, it was 2 months since I've had my "training session" which I honestly don't remember. In the meanwhile, I had to do other mandatory stuff (training on how to initiate our new alcohol CIWA protocol on the computer, corporate HIPAA annual training and recertification, renew my ATLS, BLS, and ACLS (they all expired around the same time 😡 ) . I'm sure the pharmacists in my area went crazy the day that our e-prescribe went live.

And that's just e-prescribing. Going from paper order to CPOE - I'm sure that was a bigger shock and a bigger learning curve (and knowing administrators, training of providers on using CPOE was probably not well thought out, and just added onto the schedule of an already busy schedule)


*at another hospital (a community hospital), there are many provider groups contracted to work at this hospital (I think Internal Medicine has 4 different groups working at this hospital). Each groups have their own physicians/PAs/NPs. So they're having trouble getting all the providers in all the groups to use the EMR that they just implemented. (the hospital can't really threaten the groups since they are private groups with privileges at the hospital and they want these groups to admit their patients to their hospital (and do procedures at their hospital) and not send patients to the competing hospital system across town - so if they crack down too hard or make it too difficult, these groups can just switch their affiliation and send their patients elsewhere). It's all local politics (and money).

Anyway, just a perspective on why it is difficult for some providers to use CPOE. (at the VA, it takes a few days to get used to their CPOE system because it's not the most user friendly system, and different from what I'm used to, so I have to relearn and retrain my mind when I'm at the VA and I'm ordering stuff)

Thanks for this post. The physicians at my hospital are terrible with using CPOE, so it is good to hear about it from another perspective.
 
I've built relationships with a bunch of physicians and they've given me implicit license to "do whatever i need to do to fix it" so I set the level a bit higher as to when I page them.

Operationally, physicians with privileges that come in only every so often start mucking things up (lots of therapy duplication that i can't "just fix") and it's a pain to contact them because they have a different paging service (via their offices) and nurses are calling us wondering where orders are.

That's an easy answer though...hands are tied, paged the MD/DO, bug us later. But it's bad for patient care.

Our hospital has a policy for pharmacists to immediately DC duplications.
 
I thought I heard that this was changed because it lead to people rushing and more errors were made? I can definitely see how it could be hard to do a med pass for an entire unit between 7:45 and 8:15.

What I said was the change. It used to be that all meds were supposed to be given in 30 minutes, but as you mentioned, they found nurses were cutting corners and jeopardizing patient safety to meet the deadline. So CMS relaxed the rules.

Now only the medications on the "time critical" list and given more often than q4h need to be given within the 30 minutes.. This change happened back in 2011-12 time frame, and I helped working on at my place. Most hospitals should have that done by now.
 
Anyway, just a perspective on why it is difficult for some providers to use CPOE. (at the VA, it takes a few days to get used to their CPOE system because it's not the most user friendly system, and different from what I'm used to, so I have to relearn and retrain my mind when I'm at the VA and I'm ordering stuff)

That makes sense. I do understand that there are a lot of factors that contribute, and I really only notice the issues in the midst of my busy day. I have commented to some of the providers and nurses I work with when I notice they're doing something well. I just get frustrated when I know I've told someone the same thing multiple times a day for a couple weeks, and then hear "no one ever told me this." Of course, some people don't do well with change and others really struggle with technology. And as much as it feels like it's only providers, there are nurses and pharmacists who struggled with the change too.

Overall, I'm really impressed with how well everyone picked up a new system. I just wish that people who haven't would realize that it isn't just that "this system sucks" and would ask for help. I'd rather tell you first than fix a mess later.
 
Our hospital has a policy for pharmacists to immediately DC duplications.

I will DC straight duplications, but when an intensivist orders lipitor 20 and then a cardiologist comes along and orders lipitor 80 and blows through the clinical decision support popup...sorry i know we all have bigger fish to fry but unless i've talked to you before, i will not necessarily assume the specialist's orders supersede that of the first physician.

Same with PPI & H2RA's...you pick one, you're the prescriber.
 
We use McKesson - if you retime a med with out software it has to generate a new label and will no longer scan appropriately.

So. Obnoxious.
 
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