Craniofacial fellowships

[Battlesign]

I know that this has been discussed in the past, but I would like new views and ideas. Things do change with time.

How many craniofacial fellowships are there around?

Which ones are good? Not which ones were traditionally good, but which ones are good today?

Any ideas of best place?

Is there a master list somewhere? I haven't seen it on any web site.

Thanks in advance.

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[LSU-Cowboy]

I know that this has been discussed in the past, but I would like new views and ideas. Things do change with time.

How many craniofacial fellowships are there around?

Which ones are good? Not which ones were traditionally good, but which ones are good today?

Any ideas of best place?

Is there a master list somewhere? I haven't seen it on any web site.

Thanks in advance.

1) BJ's in Pittsburgh
2) Posnick's in Maryland
3) Mass Gen (heard it's all research....little clinical)

They need to open one down here in the South....too cold up there in the northeast. Nothing like peelin' the bean on some FLK

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/edu.cfm?doc_id=5860#cranio

The craniofacial surgery fellowship at RCH in Melbourne takes graduates of both OMS and Plastics programs.

They have a BJ costello fellow on staff there too:
http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/staff.cfm?doc_id=7231

Other oms staff at RCH:
http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/staff.cfm?doc_id=4912
http://www.rch.org.au/plastic/staff.cfm?doc_id=4923

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

.

 

[BioABC]

1) BJ's in Pittsburgh
2) Posnick's in Maryland
3) Mass Gen (heard it's all research....little clinical)

They need to open one down here in the South....too cold up there in the northeast. Nothing like peelin' the bean on some FLK

Dr. Costello is amazing!!!

 

[IcedOMFS]

Dr. Costello is amazing!!!

I like BJs too.

 

[GatorDMD]

I like BJs too.

BJ's are in PDX and FLA also man... whats so great about them in Pitt? Does the cold air make it better?

I think craniofacial procedures are the most exciting myself... we had a cadaver course this weekend and I got to do some kick ass stuff like Le Fort III osteotomy, mid face bipartition, Cranial Vault osteotomy... like I said kick A!

 

[BioABC]

BJ's are in PDX and FLA also man... whats so great about them in Pitt? Does the cold air make it better?

I think craniofacial procedures are the most exciting myself... we had a cadaver course this weekend and I got to do some kick ass stuff like Le Fort III osteotomy, mid face bipartition, Cranial Vault osteotomy... like I said kick A!

IDK...I'm definetely biased to the one in Pittsburgh, though!

 

[Jaybe]

Does BJ's cover any other residents or is it only for OMFS??? I kinda need to know. . .

 

[scalpel2008]

Does BJ's cover any other residents or is it only for OMFS??? I kinda need to know. . .

only for oral and maxillofellatio surgery...

 

[Battlesign]

I heard that BJ is very hands on. I know that he is a great guy. What programs really see the big cases? True craniofacial cases. Not just orthognathic. I mean true craniofacial pt.?

 

[BioABC]

I heard that BJ is very hands on. I know that he is a great guy. What programs really see the big cases? True craniofacial cases. Not just orthognathic. I mean true craniofacial pt.?

I'm not being smart...I seriously want to know what the difference between orthognathic and craniofacial cases are. What is considered to be a "true" craniofacial case? Thanks!

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I'm not being smart...I seriously want to know what the difference between orthognathic and craniofacial cases are. What is considered to be a "true" craniofacial case? Thanks!

Maybe you should take a trip to your local med/dent library and do some research.

 

[tx oms]

I heard that BJ is very hands on. I know that he is a great guy. What programs really see the big cases? True craniofacial cases. Not just orthognathic. I mean true craniofacial pt.?

We's do 'em here. One next week.

 

[Antz002]

I suppose this is not quite consistent with the thread, but I'll ask it anyway.
I am interested in doing a fellowship in craniofacial surgery after maxfac, but I've been wondering what the point is when there are plastic surgeons doing the same thing. Wouldnt the ignorant public choose a plastic surgeon over a maxfac guy? Is there plenty of work for maxfac guys who subspecialize in craniofacial surgery?

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

I suppose this is not quite consistent with the thread, but I'll ask it anyway.
I am interested in doing a fellowship in craniofacial surgery after maxfac, but I've been wondering what the point is when there are plastic surgeons doing the same thing. Wouldnt the ignorant public choose a plastic surgeon over a maxfac guy? Is there plenty of work for maxfac guys who subspecialize in craniofacial surgery?

Same could be said for the public choosing a cosmetic fellowship trained ENT surgeon to do their facelift over a H/N Cosmetic PRS guy.

You can do anything you want.. just have to work hard, do good quality work, market your practice and build a referral base.

Good luck

 

[scalpel2008]

I suppose this is not quite consistent with the thread, but I'll ask it anyway.
I am interested in doing a fellowship in craniofacial surgery after maxfac, but I've been wondering what the point is when there are plastic surgeons doing the same thing. Wouldnt the ignorant public choose a plastic surgeon over a maxfac guy? Is there plenty of work for maxfac guys who subspecialize in craniofacial surgery?

I think it's much more difficult for an OMS to have a busy craniofacial practice than a cosmetic practice. The reason isn't necessarily the public, but mostly because while a cosmetics practice can be done primarily in one's private practice/surgicenter, a full scope craniofacial surgeon is part of a huge team consisting of the craniofacial surgeon, neurosurgeon, pediatrician, geneticist, audiologist, speech pathologist, pediatric dentist, orthodontist, OMS, etc. This is usually done at a hospital (usually a major children's hospital). Thats where the issue arises - politics. PRS has managed to secure the craniofacial turf especially when it comes to primary cleft repair, palate repairs, and craniosynostoses. It's not easy for OMS to get hospital privileges for full scope craniofacial surgery w/o an ACGME accredited fellowship. The OMS can find the niche in alveolar grafting, mandibular (maybe midface distraction) and definitely orthognathic surgery. This doesn't mean there aren't OMS who do it all. There are but they are few and far between and usually not in major metropolitan cities. Even in Pittsburgh, I think PRS does the bulk of the craniofacial work where BJ is.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

It's not easy for OMS to get hospital privileges for full scope craniofacial surgery w/o an ACGME accredited fellowship.

Why do you say it must be an ACGME fellowship? Why not a CODA fellowship? (especially considering that craniofacial surgery is technically already within the listed core scope of OMS).

OMS guys don't have this same problem when it comes to H/N oncology or cosmetics, then why craniofacial?


I could also give the example of the DO surgeons who completed an osteopathic surgical residency and fellowship. They may have never completed 1 day in an ACGME program yet they can get hospital privileges without problems because they've shown that their programs are of equal quality and length. I don't see how this should be any different for CODA fellowships for H/N oncology, Cosmetic, or craniofacial fellowships.

If there was any state that wasn't allowing a fully qualified (especially if the surgeon was dual qualified), fellowship trained craniofacial surgeon to have full hospital rights for craniofacial procedures.. you could probably challenge it successfully in court.

 

[scalpel2008]

Why do you say it must be an ACGME fellowship? Why not a CODA fellowship? (especially considering that craniofacial surgery is technically already within the listed core scope of OMS).

OMS guys don't have this same problem when it comes to H/N oncology or cosmetics, then why craniofacial?


I could also give the example of the DO surgeons who completed an osteopathic surgical residency and fellowship. They may have never completed 1 day in an ACGME program yet they can get hospital privileges without problems because they've shown that their programs are of equal quality and length. I don't see how this should be any different for CODA fellowships for H/N oncology, Cosmetic, or craniofacial fellowships.

If there was any state that wasn't allowing a fully qualified (especially if the surgeon was dual qualified), fellowship trained craniofacial surgeon to have full hospital rights for craniofacial procedures.. you could probably challenge it successfully in court.

i'm not saying i agree with the way things are. but there's no question that PRS has pretty good control over the full scope craniofacial turf.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

i'm not saying i agree with the way things are. but there's no question that PRS has pretty good control over the full scope craniofacial turf.

Things are changing.. especially after the precedents set for cosmetic procedures in most US states securing the right of single qualified oms guys. (even California)
If someone... especially a dual qualified, craniofacial fellowship trained oms was denied hospital privileges for procedures that are obviously within his scope. I say take the bastards to court and further our profession and specialty. There is no reason why they should be denied privileges.

The main problem as I see it with our specialty is that most oms guys may have an interest in a particular area (ie. craniofacial), but at the first sign of resistance they give up and stick to the office based 3rd molar cash cow. Its really unfortunate for us as a whole because that only reinforces the public and professional image of us as nothing but overqualified exodontists.

I think very highly of BJ Costello.. as I believe he has it right. The only way to help our specialty is to complete a fellowship and then to go into academics and start your own fellowship and build a referral base and educate the public and other medical professionals exactly what oms is capable of. As this is the only way to move forward.

 

[DNOMS]

I am looking for a facial cosmetic fellowship or a cranial facial surgery fellowship with cosmetic surgery component. Do you have any recommendation or experience to share with me?

 

[Bill E Rubin]

Does anybody have info on, or can share their experience with Ramon Ruiz's Fellowship in Orlando?

 

[Craniomaxface]

I remember reading this thread back in the old days...
Ramon's is one of three that actually does crani cases (although im sure pat ricaldes new fellowship will do them as well from what I hear). His pediatric volume is probably the best in the country (not counting pure cleft where the title goes to K Smith in Oklahoma), pretty focused. You wont be doing much else as far as general OMS. He is more hands on than others and he can be very hard to get a hold of which can be very frustrating. All that said, good fellowship.