Crickets Chirping, What To Do?

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NotTheApplicant

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Hi. I'm posting on behalf of my spouse, who's busy at work. I'm hoping for some feedback I can pass on to him. So, I'll get right to it.

My husband is a US citizen who completed undergrad in the US, but we currently live in Alberta, Canada (and this is where he went back to school to do his pre-med prerequisites).

His stats:
MCAT: 37S
If I recall correctly his total GPA was 3.59, but his science GPA is more like a 3.95
His ECs could have been a little bit better, but they're not bad, and include shadowing, working with handi-capable individuals, volunteering, working in a research lab, etc.

He applied to the following schools (all of which his LizzyQ score listed as a high chance except Mayo, which was his long-shot school):

Wright State University (secondary complete in August)
University of Cincinnati (secondary complete in September)
University of Toledo (secondary complete in October)
Northeastern Ohio University (secondary complete in September)
Rush (secondary complete in October)
Loyola (secondary complete in September)
Rosalind Franklin (secondary complete in September)
Commonwealth Medical (decided not to submit the secondary)
Jefferson (secondary complete in September)
Mayo (requested letters of references, but rejected pre-interview - no biggie, we expected that would likely happen)
University of North Dakota (decided not to submit the secondary)

He also applied to the University of Calgary (interview was last week, notifications aren't until May 15th).

We had hoped, with completing his applications at a decent time, that we'd hear from some schools before December. No luck. But, all right. So we waited until after the holidays (under the assumption that not many invites would go out during the exam/holiday season). But now, it's the last day of February, and still...nada.

According to the Cinci thread, the school is informing applicants that any invites from here on out are for the alternate list only. And according to the Loyola thread, anybody who hasn't heard by today is not getting an interview.

Basically, we're totally baffled that he hasn't heard ANYTHING from anyone but Mayo. So my questions are these:

Were we totally crazy to think he was a competitive applicant?

Could living in Canada be affecting how his application is being treated? Like I said, he is a US citizen, but perhaps he's being treated like an international applicant?

At this point, with two schools being completely hopeless and the clock quickly running down, is there any harm in calling or e-mailing the remaining schools just to check in? He hadn't previously even considered doing that because, well, it seems like a really obnoxious thing to do and we both figured we just needed to be patient. But now it almost seems like we were too patient. Is it normal for somebody with his stats to not get a single II?

Do you have any other relevant thoughts/advice?

This is his first time applying to US schools (he applied to Calgary the last two years, got an II the first year, and no II last year). But we have family in the US, and the Canadian schools are very difficult to get into (you have to be the best of the best to be accepted outside your province of residence and our province only has two schools).

Thanks in advance for any feedback (especially regarding whether contacting schools would negatively impact his chances).
 
This is puzzling to me. I guess he is being treated like an international applicant due to doing his pre-med classes in Canada but I wouldn't have thought that would have happend if he had US citizenship.

Has he tried calling any of the US schools and speaking to one of the deans about what is snagging his application? He should be pretty competitive based on his stats as far as I can tell.
 
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Sending LOIs to the schools really can't hurt... I would definitely do it if I were him. I'd also be preparing to reapply--there's no excuse for him not to apply early next time (especially at mayo, where they seem to operate earlier in the cycle than everyone else). Applying earlier, broader, and to more schools will almost definitely result in a good cycle next year assuming the rest of his application is solid.
 
I think this sounds curious to me as well. The stats are sick, so I'm kind of at a loss. It could be the international thing. I wonder if you listed a US state of residence or have proof of residence and applied to schools within that state... how would he not be accepted at one of those?

Good luck
 
What was his MCAT breakdown? It could be possible that he was screened out due to a low score on a section.
 
He did not complete his undergrad in the United States.

That is his problem.

Very few schools will even look at students who did undergrad outside of the US, regardless of that person's citizenship status.

He needs to apply to schools in Canada.
 
CrimsonKing said:
He did not complete his undergrad in the United States.

That is his problem.

Very few schools will even look at students who did undergrad outside of the US, regardless of that person's citizenship status.

He needs to apply to schools in Canada.
Click to expand...

He DID complete his undergrad in the States. He went back to school just for pre-reqs because he decided to pursue medicine (his degree was in film).
 
NotTheApplicant said:
He DID complete his undergrad in the States. He went back to school just for pre-reqs because he decided to pursue medicine (his degree was in film).
Click to expand...

In all honesty, it's probably a good idea to contact the schools he applied to and ask how they view applicants in his position. You might want to post what you find out here though, because it could potentially help other applicants in his position in future cycles.
 
Wolverine Fan said:
It's not normal for somebody with his stats to not get a single II, but there are a few problems with his application. He applied to only a handful of schools, and his secondary application submissions made his application somewhat late in the cycle. Furthermore, the schools he applied to normally attract average applicants. Schools may not have seriously considered his application because they assumed he'd go elsewhere. If he had only applied to the top schools, I assume he'd have at least a few more invitations than he does now.
.
Click to expand...

Wow, schools actually make assumptions like that? A few of those he picked just to have more chances, but largely those are the schools he actually wants to go to (especially Wright State, though they tend to favor Ohio residents).

We thought 11 schools was a pretty good number (our bank account certainly took a beating with that many applications). To how many different programs do most people apply?
 
sinombre said:
In all honesty, it's probably a good idea to contact the schools he applied to and ask how they view applicants in his position. You might want to post what you find out here though, because it could potentially help other applicants in his position in future cycles.
Click to expand...

Will do! 👍
 
The problem is he didn't apply to enough schools. Besides Mayo, he completed an application at 9 schools. Many of which are public (Wright, Cinci, Toledo, NEO) or receive tons of applications and are not really good safety schools despite lower stats (rosalind franklin).

If you're thinking about LOI, Wright State and Rush do not accept them.
 
I wonder, do you know if his LORs were good? Sometimes even one bad letter of recommendation can hurt an applicant's chances, unfortunately.
 
An MD Hopeful said:
I wonder, do you know if his LORs were good? Sometimes even one bad letter of recommendation can hurt an applicant's chances, unfortunately.
Click to expand...

He is 99% certain they were very good. I think one of his professors even told him he was worried it was too positive and that somebody might think he was just being overly-generous.
 
MedPR said:
If you're thinking about LOI, Wright State and Rush do not accept them.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the head's up! I passed that along and he's going to try to call and see if they have anything to tell him.

Wright State is one of his top choices. :/
 
So strange. His stats should make make every school either a safety (unless they are very unfavorable to OOS applicants) or competitive (with a solid shot at a top 10, but that's a crap shoot no matter what the stats).
 
LOIs this late might be a little meaningless, since by the time it is written/sent/read, most of those schools will have already done interviewing.

Great MCAT score, but I agree that doing the pre reqs in Canada changes things. I'm pretty sure he is NOT treated as an international though.


If I were him I would get ready to reapp. Pick a better range of schools and send LOIs if you don't hear by December
 
NotTheApplicant said:
Thanks for the head's up! I passed that along and he's going to try to call and see if they have anything to tell him.

Wright State is one of his top choices. :/
Click to expand...

Quite honestly his stats are probably too high for Wright.
 
Like others have posted, I would call each of the schools to ask what was wrong with his application. Are you sure that each school marked his app as complete? He wasn't missing a letter from someone?
That's odd that he didn't receive more II's... I'd call the schools.
Good luck to him! :luck:
 
All right, I've got a bit of an update:

So, he called during his lunch break and here's what he found out:

WSU basically just told him he's SOL. They're done, and they aren't going to bother looking into any issues with the application. So, that really, really sucks because it was his #2 choice and my #1 pick (not that I get to decide for him of course, seeing as I'm not the one who's actually going to be going to med school).

Cincinnati said they will look into it and e-mail him.

Toledo said he *is* being treated as a US applicant, though OOS of course. They also said they will continue extending II though the end of April.

Northeastern also said that he's being treated as an OOS-US applicant and they are offering interviews through the end of March.

Loyola said the last invites are going out on Monday.

Jefferson didn't answer, so he left a message.

I'm heartbroken over WSU (not only because I feel bad for my husband, but also because that school would have had us 20 minutes away from our family). MedPR, could you explain to me why would a school reject somebody for having high stats? I'm not sure I see the logic in that sort of thing so I'd be curious to understand how that benefits the school.

I'm off to post in the school specific threads for Northeastern, Toledo and Loyola with the info about how much longer they're giving II.

And I just want to express my gratitude for how many people have added their thoughts so quickly to this thread. We're really grateful for all the feedback and insight we can get.
 
Most USMD applicants apply to a huge number of schools, so "lower tier" schools such as Wayne State actually receive tons of applications from high stat applicants that are simply using them as a "safety." Wayne State could theoretically accept all of these high stat applicants, but these applicants would go on and matriculate at different schools anyway. So they tend to accept applicants with stats not too far out of their range, hoping to increase their "yield".

One way round this is to show that even though your stats are much higher than the matriculant average, the school is still one of your top choices. This can be done through a well written secondary, LOI's or maybe even early decision programs.
 
jorgediaz said:
Most USMD applicants apply to a huge number of schools, so "lower tier" schools such as Wayne State actually receive tons of applications from high stat applicants that are simply using them as a "safety." .
Click to expand...

Wright State actually, not Wayne. 🙂 And WSU won't accept LOI anyhow, not that it matters at this point.

Thanks for the explanation though. I guess that's a cultural difference between the US schools and Canadian schools then. There are so few schools here and so many hopeful applicants that all the schools can afford to only take the very strongest applicants. I know, from their admissions blog, that Calgary has been adjusting their process repeatedly over the last three cycles because the applicant numbers keep increasing while, this year at least, the seats available actually decreased (due to a very stupid decision on the province's part to cut funding - despite our shortage of physicians in Alberta). :smack:

It didn't even cross our minds (until he went so many months without a peep from the American schools) that the US programs would do it any differently. If he has to reapply, I guess we'll know better. Not sure what we could do about WSU though...if they won't take LOI, how are we supposed to let them know that, um, HECK YES, he actually wants to go there.
 
NotTheApplicant said:
Wright State actually, not Wayne. 🙂 And WSU won't accept LOI anyhow, not that it matters at this point.

Thanks for the explanation though. I guess that's a cultural difference between the US schools and Canadian schools then. There are so few schools here and so many hopeful applicants that all the schools can afford to only take the very strongest applicants. I know, from their admissions blog, that Calgary has been adjusting their process repeatedly over the last three cycles because the applicant numbers keep increasing while, this year at least, the seats available actually decreased (due to a very stupid decision on the province's part to cut funding - despite our shortage of physicians in Alberta). :smack:

It didn't even cross our minds (until he went so many months without a peep from the American schools) that the US programs would do it any differently. If he has to reapply, I guess we'll know better. Not sure what we could do about WSU though...if they won't take LOI, how are we supposed to let them know that, um, HECK YES, he actually wants to go there.
Click to expand...

I think it's worth trying to contact them somehow to try and express interest, even if their policy is that they don't take pre-interview LOIs. Especially at this point in the cycle.
 
sinombre said:
I think it's worth trying to contact them somehow to try and express interest, even if their policy is that they don't take pre-interview LOIs. Especially at this point in the cycle.
Click to expand...

Well, like I said, this cycle is over for WSU. They pretty much told him "we're done, too bad, we aren't going to bother answering your question" when he called. But if he has to reapply next cycle, I guess he'll just call them as soon as his secondary is complete?
 
NotTheApplicant said:
Wright State actually, not Wayne. 🙂 And WSU won't accept LOI anyhow, not that it matters at this point.

Thanks for the explanation though. I guess that's a cultural difference between the US schools and Canadian schools then. There are so few schools here and so many hopeful applicants that all the schools can afford to only take the very strongest applicants. I know, from their admissions blog, that Calgary has been adjusting their process repeatedly over the last three cycles because the applicant numbers keep increasing while, this year at least, the seats available actually decreased (due to a very stupid decision on the province's part to cut funding - despite our shortage of physicians in Alberta). :smack:

It didn't even cross our minds (until he went so many months without a peep from the American schools) that the US programs would do it any differently. If he has to reapply, I guess we'll know better. Not sure what we could do about WSU though...if they won't take LOI, how are we supposed to let them know that, um, HECK YES, he actually wants to go there.
Click to expand...

Yep. Out of curiosity, what is the # applying and the # accepted for Canadian schools? And do the better students typically stay in Canada or prefer to come State side (or does it depend)?

I guess the schools here are invested in the candidates they interview since there is the opportunity cost of time and the interview spot. So it makes sense they want applicants who will consider matriculating even if they get multiple acceptances.
 
NotTheApplicant said:
Well, like I said, this cycle is over for WSU. They pretty much told him "we're done, too bad, we aren't going to bother answering your question" when he called. But if he has to reapply next cycle, I guess he'll just call them as soon as his secondary is complete?
Click to expand...

Ahh, I see. Well I would definitely make sure he conveys his interest in attending that school in the secondary itself. That would accomplish the same thing without potentially ruffling any feathers.
 
jorgediaz said:
Yep. Out of curiosity, what is the # applying and the # accepted for Canadian schools? And do the better students typically stay in Canada or prefer to come State side (or does it depend)?

I guess the schools here are invested in the candidates they interview since there is the opportunity cost of time and the interview spot. So it makes sense they want applicants who will consider matriculating even if they get multiple acceptances.
Click to expand...

"In 2009, there were 10,945 applicants in Canada for 2,865 places available, meaning that roughly 26% of applicants gain admission to at least one medical school."

(http://www.themsag.com/canadian-medical-school-statistics/cat_17.html)

And I'm fairly certain that most top students stay in Canada, unless they want a research career. Unlike the current situation in the US, the majority of Canadian med schools are considered of a high level and relatively equivalent, so people tend to cherry-pick less. Also, it can be a huge administrative mess to go to the US for training and come back.
 
jorgediaz said:
Yep. Out of curiosity, what is the # applying and the # accepted for Canadian schools? And do the better students typically stay in Canada or prefer to come State side (or does it depend)?
Click to expand...

Well, for Calgary:

I don't know how many total applicants they had this cycle. Last year it was 1728, and I know it went up this year. But I can't find the exact number.

There were 1309 files that went to full review. 205 were from OOP (out of province) applicants. They invited 122 OOP applicants and 518 IP applicants for interviews for a total of 640 interviews.
They have 155 seats available (down from 170 last year).

I think most students here would prefer to get in here. And if you're in Ontario, you have better chances (since they have the most schools in their province). Albertans, for example, have only two IP schools (University of Alberta which is in Edmonton and the University of Calgary). Apparently there are some concerns with the number of students leaving Canada so they can study medicine: http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/story/2011/02/22/canadian-students-medicine-overseas.html

The most interesting tidbit from that article is:
The survey suggested these students opt to study overseas because they have decided they would not be accepted into medical school in Canada, or would rather not wait several years through repeated attempts. It is not uncommon in Canada to apply to medical school two or three times before being admitted. The acceptance rate for first-time applicants in Canada is under 30 per cent. In the U.S. the success rate is 44 per cent.
Click to expand...

The multiple application attempts has definitely proven true for my poor husband. This is his third Canadian application cycle. Last year he didn't even get invited to interview at Calgary (though he did the year before). It's especially hard to bear as a non-trad student with a family (our daughter is 4 and our son is due at the end of April). IF he gets into Calgary (which is a year-round, three year program instead of four years), and IF he decides to stick with family medicine (he recognizes he may change his mind once he gets more exposure to other specialties), our daughter will be nine before he's done with residency. The financial burden of multiple applications is also a huge source of stress for both of us.

You can see all the Calgary stats for last year's cycle here: http://www.ucalgary.ca/mdprogram/files/mdprogram/Reference Stats 2012.pdf

Page 2 has some of the more interesting stats.

Basically the Canadian schools anticipate that some students will turn them down for another school...but instead of NOT interviewing all the qualified applicants to combat that, they over-extend acceptances. They've figured out how many people to expect will decline the acceptance, so they send out about that many extra letters of acceptance, and then pull from the wait-list if they end up with more declines than that.
 
Doudline said:
"In 2009, there were 10,945 applicants in Canada for 2,865 places available, meaning that roughly 26% of applicants gain admission to at least one medical school."

(http://www.themsag.com/canadian-medical-school-statistics/cat_17.html)

And I'm fairly certain that most top students stay in Canada, unless they want a research career. Unlike the current situation in the US, the majority of Canadian med schools are considered of a high level and relatively equivalent, so people tend to cherry-pick less. Also, it can be a huge administrative mess to go to the US for training and come back.
Click to expand...

Ah, Glad somebody else had the exact numbers on that. I couldn't find them for some reason. Guess I wasn't using the right search terms.
 
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