CRNA scuffle

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eddieberetta

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Check out http://orlando.bizjournals.com/orlando/stories/2003/03/17/story6.html .

I think it's hilarious that CRNA's, having been made almost totally independent in some states, have failed to actually deliver on anaesthesia care in underserviced areas (surprise! they like to work in cities too)...but are more than willing to fight tooth and nail against other practitioners such as AA's.

They have the audacity to argue is that AA's will threaten public safety, and that they don't have rigorous enough training and experience! But they are silent on who's going to provide the care in low-renumeration areas.

Give me a break! 🙄

I'm actually a soon-to-be rads resident in Canada so I don't pretend to know all the issues. (We don't have CRNA legislation here, but resp therapists seem poised to fill the void). However, I think organized anaesthesiology will have to consider carefully which type of non-physician provider to support (not whether ). It seems that AA's want to work with BC'd anesthesiologists -- I think it will be easy to sell this concept to the public and in the long run beneficial for the profession.

Thoughts?
 
I agree. I do not know all the fact myself. However, if I ever have to go under the knife I want a board certified AMD to be there...NOT a CRNA.
 
That statement shows just how uneducated you are!
 
Originally posted by meandragonbrett
That statement shows just how uneducated you are!

exactly, to whom are you directing this reply towards?? who exactly are you?? are you a disgruntled CRNA?

I am simply stating my opinion. Am I not entitled to do so? I would rather have someone who has completed medical school and an anesthesiology residency accreditted either by the ACGME or AOA to put me under during surgery. I have nothing against nurses who decide to become certified in anesthesia. I think it's great. However, I don't want any of them near me during surgery if I am the patient...I'll take the AMD/DO...that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it
 
Thanks for posting the article eddieberetta. Ironic that the nurse anesthetist quoted in the article suggested that surgery will be more harzadous under anesthesiologist assistant's care. A recent poster presentation at ASA Annual Meeting in Orlando found that office based anesthesia provided by nurse anethetist is associated with more morbidity and is less cost effective than with a MDA. Moreover, a friend in private practice with all MDs in his group recently told me that 90%+ of the cases presented at M&M at his hospital are CRNA cases.

This all boils down to economic. No one likes competition. And with an AA making 100K without the hassle of nursing school and the requisite 1-2 years in the ICU, the competition will be stiff. I know for a fact that the ASA is trying to promote AAs to weaken nurse anesthetist's position that they can practice independently. However it pans out in the future, I believe, after working with many CRNAs in the OR, that no mid-level provider can adequately replace a well-trained anesthesiologist. My preference is to work with AAs than with CRNAs, as the latter are often very arrogant and think they know it all. It is precisely this arrogance that is harmful to patients.

Just as you cannot speak of ice to a summer insect, you can not speak of ocean to a well frog. A little Taoist food for thought for our nursing friend meandragonbrett. 😀
 
Jason,
I don't believe I stated that I was talking about your opinion of CRNAs. And no, I'm not a disgruntled nurse anesthetist.
 
while the battle lines are clearly drawn between CRNA's and anesthesiologists (there really shouldn't be such controversy as it draws away from what's important--patient care!), there are a couple of important points to remember:

1) anesthesiologists are the ones predominantly responsible for the amazing improvements in anesthetic care in the past 20 years. it is the basic and clinical research which has come out of this nation's academic centers that has made having surgery quite safe today. Continuing advancements in anesthesia care will continue to come from anesthesiologists, as physicians are equipped with the educational background for this task.

2) when things go badly in the OR, who is called? answer:
ANESTHESIOLOGIST! Other than in an emergency or underserved scenario it is ridiculous to have CRNA's operating on their own. There are many skilled CRNA's out there who do wonderful work, but the bottom line is that it's inappropriate and dangerous to leave intra and post-operative care solely in the hands of nursing. There is no field of medicine where nurses do not operate with the input of physicians.
 
BTW- I am neither Pro-CRNA nor Pro-MDA. I am Pro-Anesthesia Team Approach.
 
Pro-Anesthesia Team approach? 😕 😕


what the hell is that mean?
 
Hi everyone, thanks for your comments. If there is really any question about who meandragonbrett is, this should help refresh our memories:
Meandragonbrett (10-17-2001 11:43 PM): I plan on going to nursing school and then going on to get my masters w\a focus on Nurse Anesthesia so I can become a CRNA.
and
Meandragonbrett (02-22-2002 12:26 AM): I just wish the MDA's would grow up and realize that somebody else can do the same thing as them for cheaper.
Guess what our friend thinks of AA's
Meandragonbrett (11-24-2001 05:39 AM): Would you really want somebody with NO Critical Care or Trauma Experience watching you while your unconcious? I don't think so. I wouldn't have an AA work on me. I would have a CRNA if they had one.
hehe, it's just like in the article 😉 Okay, now I'll lay off meandragonbrett -- he has a history of spamming the forums with pages and pages of CRNA tripe literally copied and pasted off the web when he gets flustered.

It certainly makes sense to me that non-physician health care workers given the responsibility to make medical decisions should function under the supervision of a licensed physician (in this case an anesthesiologist -- the argument that the surgeon can supervise is spurious as he is busy operating). No other health care worker is trained to the same standard as MDs in the diagnosis of disease, physiology and treatment. However, it is clear that CRNAs do not want to work under physician supervision, and they are doing everything in their power to de-couple themselves and compete with MDAs for anesthesia services.

This is why I think MDAs should consider working with AAs. The arrangement of a physician extender working under a BC'd specialist makes sense to me and I bet will sit well with the public. In the long run MDAs should perhaps stop "backing up" CRNAs when things go wrong -- if they want to be independent, let them.
 
I'm not really clear on this one, so please enlighten, who is responsible if a CRNA screws up, who gets sued and do they require medical liability insurance the same way other practitioners do?

If so, considering their educational deficiencies are their insurance rates as high as they should be?😕
 
Eddie, a little too much time there? 😀 Here lately I have been seriously considering going the Medicine route instead of the nursing route. In response to Cajun, the names that are in the chart is the one who can be :hung out to dry." If there is an anesthesiologist "Supervising" the case, they are liable as well. I've been in the OR for three years and the CRNAs here do heads, hearts, necks, outpts, transplants, etc. In fact, they aren't required to have anesthesiologist supervision. I am surprised by that because this is a large private hospital of 2000 beds and over 70 ORs. I've never seen a clash b\t a CRNA and a MDA on the clinical level, only political. In my opinion it's more on a political level As far as malpractice is concerned, I don't know. Most anesthesia groups will pay your malpractice as a benefit of working for them.
 
hehe meandragonbrett -- I couldn't let ya get off THAT easily 😛 !!

As for the liability issue, I have heard that CRNAs do in fact cost their institution a higher amount in liability (than MDA) and that that amount is reduced if they are supervised by an MDA, however I don't know for sure...

Any practitioner who is unsupervised is basically on their own as far as I know.

BTW, on a practical note, I would seriously consider the AA route over CRNA. I don't know of any faster way to make a sure-fire 100K per year!
 
From meandragonbrett: "Eddie, a little too much time there? Here lately I have been seriously considering going the Medicine route instead of the nursing route. "

And from meandragonbrett's website:

http://crnaguy2b.blogspot.com/

"I can't wait till august! I'm excited and ready to get this started! I've been contemplating the CRNA V MD thing again today...I'm thinking that I'll prepare myself for either route by going to nsg school and take the required pre-reqs for med school. Then make my decision later. Does this show my habit of procrastination? hehe!"

"Sitting here tonight I've started tyoing with the idea of CRNA V MDA again. It happens every couple months. I mostly ignore it. I know I'd be happy as a CRNA and that I'd be happy as a MDA. So why do I keep runnign that through my brain? Although I do want to be doing the anesthesia instead of supervising it. That's why I'm going to go the CRNA route, and not to add that I have no desire to be a physician! "

Gee, for someone who vacillates so much between medicine and nursing, I would really suggest you go the nursing route. (You said it yourself, you would rather do than supervise/think/take responsibility)...

You really can't be that committed to medicine with statements like that...

BTW, there is a world of difference between nursing school and medical school. Most people don't just waltz into medical school as easily as nursing school as you plan it. The decision to enter medical school is actually not up to you.

-TRG

😉
 
The health system's of the countries I'm familiar with (UK/Can/Aus), none of them have anything similar to a CRNA. From what I've gleaned from this board, CRNA's can practice with or without supervision, depending on the state. My question is, in the states where they can practice independently, say an MDA moved into town, and setup practice and now the community is serviced by an anaesthesiologist, does the CRNA have to work under the MDA or can he/she continue in direct competition to the MDA as an independent practitioner? What is their relationship like in other parts of that same state? In states that do not allow unsupervised practice, are CRNAs employees of MDAs, are they employees of the hospital or independent contractors? Thanks for any help in clarifying things.
 
In agreement with gasxchange....

I think most CRNAs do not realize that if "anesthesia" (the technical aspects of delivering anesthesia) had not become "anesthesiology" (the practice of medicine), we would still be giving patients ether!

There is a role for both doctors and nurses in patient care. But nurses and doctors are different breeds of people. CRNAs, no matter how "special" they think they are, are still just like other nurses. They view their patient care as jobs, i.e. doing their 8-hour shifts, clock in and out, and go home.

Doctors don't operate by the time clock, practice medicine, conduct research, train residents/students/fellows, run departments within medical schools, write the textbooks that both MDAs and CRNAs read, and master the current literature. In every arena - from the medical wards to the OR - nurses administer the meds and do their jobs as a direct result of clinical investigations by physicians.

If all the anesthesiologists in this country suddenly vanished, does anyone really think CRNAs could continue the incredible advancements in patient care? Would CRNAs start conducting anesthesia research when their shifts are over? Would they completely write a new Miller? Would they become the only nurses to run an academic department within a medical school? I doubt it. These are all aspects of any specialty that nurses generally have no interest in being a part of. Nurses are doers, while doctors are thinkers. As much as CRNAs may try to fight supervision, all throughout nursing school and their 2 years of critical care, what do they do? Take orders from physicians. It's part of the job description of being a nurse and it's kind of hard to discard that mentality - no matter what type of nurse. You don't become a nurse expecting to practice independently. Most don't want that responsibility. This is why there will always be a need for MDAs and MDOs.

I know I'm making sweeping generalizations, and some will choose to flame, but this is just based on my own observations and experiences.
 
I was hoping one of my American colleagues would help answer Pill Counter's question, but since there are no takers I will have a go at it. (I consider myself something of an American-in-training -- all our rads residencies make us ABR - eligible so I'm looking forward to starting my private MR clinic in Florida. How does "Luxury Imaging" sound? 😀 But I digress...) Anyway, In states without supervision, CRNAs can practice fully autonomously. This means that they can perform anesthesia without supervision, including intubating, epidurals, giving relevant meds etc. etc. etc. but generally not activities like pain clinics and acute pain services.

If an MDA comes to town, the CRNA will obviously be competing with the MDA for provision of services. As I mentioned, the hospital very well may try to make the CRNA work under the MDA for insurance purposes, but the CRNA will often try to fight it.

In other parts of the same state, some CRNAs will work under anesthesiologists, based on hospital policy. CRNAs can bill independently for their procedures (first medicare and then ins companies followed suit) and hence do not need to work under an MDA. In most cases, they work for the hospital so they are rarely an "employee" of the MDA in any event.

I have painted a bleak picture, but in reality market forces tell the real stories. Despite the presence of CRNAs, anesthesiologist salaries are huge today, in the solid 2-300k range. This implies that anesthesiologists provide value to the healthcare enterprise (no surprise, only a really poor hospital would want anything but an MDA involved in complex cases). The only place where competiton seems to have hit MDAs hard is in provision of e.g. anesthetic in private offices/clinics -- a previously lucrative gig now overrun with CRNAs.
 
Originally posted by trg2002

BTW, there is a world of difference between nursing school and medical school. Most people don't just waltz into medical school as easily as nursing school as you plan it. The decision to enter medical school is actually not up to you.

-TRG

😉 [/B]

NO WAY!! Are you serious? There's a difference?
 
Originally posted by -=UberSharky=-
Pro-Anesthesia Team approach? 😕 😕


what the hell is that mean?

Think about it real hard. I'm sure you can figure it out.
 
Hey meandragonbrett.... this site is called medstudents.net not nursingstudents.net. (i.e. for medical students) :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I love it when you get pissed off...... just like the good old days.
 
Originally posted by drfeelgood

I love it when you get pissed off...... just like the good old days.

I don't believe I ever said or hinted that I was pissed off....you're reading into it way too much! 😀
 
I'm slightly appalled by the immaturity shown on this subject. I'll be honest, I'm going to apply for the CRNA program in the future. Why? Beause quite frankly I'm too old to go to med school. Fifteen years ago, absolutely but not now. I have no desire now nor in the future to practice independently (as a CRNA) because I completely respect the fact that the anesthesiologist has years of education and experience beyond me.

While I respect the education and years of residency that an MD possesses, they are bound by human limitations. We all make mistakes and there's always a bad apple in the bunch to ruin it for the rest.

Bottom line, everyone on the healthcare team need to respect each other and work together. I don't care if the person next to you is the linen lady - respect her because she provides basic services that others take for granted. If it's the nurse, respect him/her because they may catch things that you miss. Even if it's the janitor - please respect them for what they do - not their education level. Humility goes a long way.

I for one would feel much more comfortable having someone to look to for guidance and support in my field. If that's an anesthesiologist, than so be it.

A Minnesota hick
 
Yesterday, I was talking with a friend about mid-level practitioners. His biggest annoyance was how petty some of the arguments had become. They're seething and antagonistic, with the maturity level of a middle-schooler.

Within academic anesthesiology departments, there is a tend to subspecialize; there are regional, neuro, cardiac, vascular, transplant, and OB specialists. While only Peds, CCM and Pain Medicine have special subboard certification (this is my understanding; please correct me if I am in error), these other anesthesiologists still posses certain subsets of special skills.

Now, most of the docs here are great, and could do almost anything. But would an ambulatory specialist consider themselves the best one to care for a neuro AVM? A cardiac specialist to do regional blocks?

A family practice doc came in and spoke to us about acute care (fast tracking). Her interesting point: she knows her limits, knows when to hand off to the EM docs, but also knows she can care for a spider bite or sprained ankle pretty well herself.

One point she made stood out: as a doctor, she wants to take care of sick people. Routine screening and prevention (which is often evidence-based and protocol in nature anyway) should be tackled by mid-level practitioners.

What if we applied this to anesthesia care? Patients who were ASA 1 or 2, as assessed by an anesthesiologist, could be anesthetized by a CRNA with relatively little oversight, or an MDA. As patients become sicker, their care is relegated to an intense oversight or CRNA by MDA, or to MDA care alone.

My personal observation is that this already happens in an informal nature within private practice groups. The problem comes when a practitioner seeks to practice beyond their level of training.
I've worked with some great CRNA's who COULD tackle complicated cases very well; I've also met some that weren't so inspiring.
 
Sorry, snipped off a part...

How do you seperate the CRNA's who don't mind working under an MD from those who vehemently deny the necessity?

And how do you deny the benefit of a team approach? At the very least, it's nice to have 2 more skilled hands when things go bad...
 
hey while were at it why not let the nurses get into neurosurgery , CT surg and ortho and have em operate too!

but then again,,,surgeons are much more protective of their territory than anesthetists. the anesthesiologists of the 80s made their bucks and didnt give a damn about the future generations or their profession , so came into existence in full force the crna bit.

As a future anesthesiologist, just sickens me to know how our predecessors sold away our specialty!
 
Originally posted by apma77
As a future anesthesiologist, just sickens me to know how our predecessors sold away our specialty!

Honestly you look at things like HMO's, HIPAA and out of control malpractice costs and you quickly realise what a mess we are inheriting from past generations of docs. I've been wearing my CIR button since 3rd year clinicals and I think its up to our generation to take back medicine from the hands of non-doctors, especially from anyone who wears a 3pc suit to the hospital and has no role in patient care. As for this whole CRNA nonsense, anyone that relieves me at the end of the day so I can get out of the hospital or covers for me so I can take a much needed potty break is a friend of mine. Do you really want to spend a month of your CA2 year covering eyes or urology cases where you pretty much learn it all after 2 days?
 
This may sound ignorant, but what is CIR?

Originally posted by soon2bdoc2003
Honestly you look at things like HMO's, HIPAA and out of control malpractice costs and you quickly realise what a mess we are inheriting from past generations of docs. I've been wearing my CIR button since 3rd year clinicals and I think its up to our generation to take back medicine from the hands of non-doctors, especially from anyone who wears a 3pc suit to the hospital and has no role in patient care. As for this whole CRNA nonsense, anyone that relieves me at the end of the day so I can get out of the hospital or covers for me so I can take a much needed potty break is a friend of mine. Do you really want to spend a month of your CA2 year covering eyes or urology cases where you pretty much learn it all after 2 days?
 
Originally posted by iliket3
I'm slightly appalled by the immaturity shown on this subject. I'll be honest, I'm going to apply for the CRNA program in the future. Why? Beause quite frankly I'm too old to go to med school. Fifteen years ago, absolutely but not now. I have no desire now nor in the future to practice independently (as a CRNA) because I completely respect the fact that the anesthesiologist has years of education and experience beyond me.

While I respect the education and years of residency that an MD possesses, they are bound by human limitations. We all make mistakes and there's always a bad apple in the bunch to ruin it for the rest.

Bottom line, everyone on the healthcare team need to respect each other and work together. I don't care if the person next to you is the linen lady - respect her because she provides basic services that others take for granted. If it's the nurse, respect him/her because they may catch things that you miss. Even if it's the janitor - please respect them for what they do - not their education level. Humility goes a long way.

I for one would feel much more comfortable having someone to look to for guidance and support in my field. If that's an anesthesiologist, than so be it.

A Minnesota hick

Well friend, you say that now because you have not started nurse anesthesia school. Once you've accumulated enough OR time to feel confident in your abilities as a gas passer, you'll soon be afflicted with the common CRNA itch to practice independently. But that's exactly where the danger lurks, because ignorance is bliss and arrogance bottled from the hours toiling in the OR will give you the false sense of security that you are as competent as an anesthesiologist -- until your patient crashes, and you have to summon help from a more well trained individual because you are ill-equipped from your two years of training. It's not your fault. That's the way things work. Good luck. You speak of humility, but most CRNAs I have met think they are as well-qualified to practice anethesia as trained doctors.
And that's precisely why I will never practice in a group that uses CRNAs.
 
we have older anethetists to thank who

sold our profession away for bucks!
I myself wll also not work for practices that hire CRNAs
 
I too will not work for a group that employs CRNAs. I may take a pay cut but at least I won't be selling out my specialty. Until the nurses stop attempting to gain independent practice rights, I won't be working with them. Unfortunately, their actions degrade the importance of anesthetic care, thereby relegating it a a nursing duty, and in the eyes of payors, something that is therefore worth less. If the nurses have their way, anesthesia reimbursement will fall further, since it will be considered a "nursing duty". This conflict is being seen across all medical specialties with the exception of surgery and procedural medical subspecialties. Every year optometrists, psychologists, NP's, APN's, CRNA's, PA's, naturopaths, chiropractors, etc introduce legislation in their respective states to obtain independent practice rights, or a broadening of their respective practice priviledges. And every year, physicians have to fight it. My advice to all of us young anesthesiologists:

1. Don't work with groups employing nurses.
2. Be very active in your hospital's board of directors, committees, etc. Your political clout will go a long way.
3. Be service oriented to your patients, surgeons, and others who require anesthetic care. Make it known to patients they have the right to request an anesthesiologist and not a nurse.
4. Do fellowship training. Stay abreast of the latest anesthesia techniques.
5. Stop teaching these techniques to the nurses! Continuous peripheral nerve catheters, TEE, etc... You don't see the cardiologists giving away echo, nuc med, and PTCA do you!?
6. Get more involved in the practice of perioperative medicine. Many surgeons, OB/GYN's, and others appreciate and will react positively to your understanding of preoperative optimization, risk stratification, post-operative pain management, and peri-operative care. This is what really separates doctors from nurses.
7. If you must take a position with a group that employs nurses, have some self-respect and do the intubation, lines, blocks, epidurals, spinals, PA caths, and induction/emergence yourself. When was the last time you saw the intensivists letting the ICU nurses float swans, central lines, and intubate??!!

A good analogy of unsupervised nurses practicing anesthesia is having a ICU with no dedicated intensivists. Instead you just have each patient followed by their respective attending (the surgeon), who occasionally gives orders but is usually preoccupied with other duties (the surgeon operating). The OR's are like short term ICU's--daily people are being intubated, ventilators are set, invasive hemodynamic monitors are placed, vasoactive medications/drips are started, blood products are transfused, antibiotics are given, IV fluids are pushed, pt's are placed on extracorporeal circulation, lab test and bloodwork is ordered, and changes in hemodynamics, renal function, cardiac rythm, oxygenation/ventilation, myocardial function, CNS fucntion, and the condition of the patient are assessed and treated. Last time I checked, each and every one of those actions required the order of a licensed physician. If you follow the anesthesia nurses' logic, we might as well do away with doctors entirely, because everywhere else in the hospital the previously mentioned actions were the decision of a physician!

That being said, luckily most major metropolitan areas a have limited scope of practice for nurses. If we as physicians start making sure physicians do physician duties, we'll be fine. Otherwise, I say scrap med school entirely and let's just have nurses do everything.
 
i agree wholeheartedly with above post!!!

Bring anesthesia back to the doctors!
 
Originally posted in ASA April 2003, Vol. 67, No.4, Mark J. Lema, M.D., Ph.D. Editor
What Could Have (Should Have) Happened

?The current shortage of Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists is predicted to worsen in the next 10 years??1

An article in the February 2003 American Association of Nurse Anesthetists (AANA) Journal identifies the obvious shortage of nurse anesthetists and studies the reasons for an 8.2-percent dropout rate for student nurses. In addition to the high attrition rate (one of every 12 nurses in training leaves nurse anesthetist programs), a shrinking workforce fueled by ?baby boomer? retirements also was identified. The article then presents data acquired by polling the entire enrollment of student nurses (n=2,008) in the United States. About 55 percent of the students responded (40 percent male, 60 percent female, which mirrors nurse anesthetist gender distribution).

It seems that the major factor influencing this high attrition rate is ?the failure to be properly socialized into the profession.?2 Nurses are understandably attracted to nurse anesthesia initially for the economic rewards (higher salary). In addition, after 12-18 months in the training program, student nurses are still positively oriented toward the bureaucratic focus rather than the patient-centered approach. ?This scale dealt with the importance of following doctors? orders, keeping one?s distance from patients and the importance of technical responsibilities of the job.?1 By graduation, student nurses more closely identify with their patient-centered clinical roles.

This nurse anesthetist recruitment and workforce crisis, in my opinion, has a number of intangibles that would not have been queried by this well-designed psychological/sociological questionnaire. I believe that the decades of acrimonious interactions between nurse anesthetists and anesthesiologists have resulted in many nurses opting to select other areas of advanced practice nursing in order to avoid the political hassle (and lobby expense!) encountered by the nurse anesthetists. Moreover, the dramatic shortage of nurses practicing traditional nursing has caused the applicant pool to ?dry up.? Critical care nursing experience is a requisite for nurse anesthesia training. With the recent focus by powerful factions such as the Leapfrog Group to improve critical care, more nurses are likely to be cajoled into staying in intensive care unit (ICU) practices or opt to become critical care nurse practitioners. Finally, anesthesiologists (like me) no longer ?recruit? ICU nurses to their hospitals to consider the field of nurse anesthesia. First, they feel that their effort will eventually work against their current mode of (safe) anesthesia care team practice because of the nurse anesthetist independent-practice movement. Second, they may fear the immediate deleterious effects of reducing their ICU nursing ranks, which may then delay the throughput of ICU-designated surgeries.

From all accounts, the practice of nurse anesthesia is in serious trouble with respect to recruitment and retention of its constituents. Predictions of a 25-percent shortage of nurse anesthetists over the next 10 years are being disseminated through the usual grapevine. In addition, their officers have been ?recycled? into other posts, ostensibly due to a lack of interest in running for office by new nurse anesthetists. Unofficial statistics of up to 25 percent of nurse anesthetists no longer belonging to AANA indicates major cracks in their organizational foundation. Yet, despite these internal problems, AANA continues to drive the wedge between the potential union of cooperative (but not collaborative) practice with ASA.

I cannot help but reflect on what could have and should have been done in the early developments of ASA-AANA relations. The simple acceptance of an anesthesia care team mode of practice would have preserved AANA?s current practice arrangements for their constituents while opening their specialty to the expanding opportunities now facing nurse practitioners. However, their leadership?s isolationist approach, initially rebuffing both ASA and the American Nurses Association, has left them vulnerable to the cataclysmic changes facing health care today.

It is quite possible that a harmonious relationship between these two professions, which could have been cultivated in the 1920s, may have led to the following developments:
? Nurse anesthetist-directed critical care practitioners
? Nurse anesthetist-directed pain management practitioners
? Joint annual meetings of ASA and AANA
? Collaborative research to improve patient safety
? Physician anesthesiologists helping in the nurse anesthetist recruitment process
? Widespread physician participation in nurse anesthesia education
? Better practice arrangements with respect to additional procedures
? Millions of dollars to use for education and research instead of for lawyers and lobbyists
? One voice in Congress to improve patient safety and/or reimbursement
? Widespread simulation centers for both physicians and nurses
? A paradigm of physician-nurse supervision interaction and cooperation that would have served as a template for other specialties to adopt.


Instead of simply acknowledging that physicians with twice as much education and training in anesthesia-related practice should lead a care team model, AANA has embarked on a campaign of name-calling, specialty-bashing and unethical misinformation, all for the single purpose of control and greed in the guise of independent practice. Now that they are committed to this course of action, the AANA leadership must contend with these current impediments to their success:

In order to increase the ranks of student nurse anesthetists, recruiters must draw from a critically short supply of nurses in general and ICU nurses specifically. This recruitment is counterproductive in a time when patient safety in the ICU is being emphasized by major corporations (e.g., Leapfrog).

Nurse anesthetists are spending millions of dollars trying to convince governors that independent practice will improve access to care in rural areas. Does the AANA leadership really believe that if given the option to work in a major city within a rural state or in the less populated areas of that state, most nurse anesthetists will opt for the latter?

Moreover, why would governors want to support independent practice for a dying breed of providers while simultaneously alienating physician anesthesiologists whose numbers are increasing? With the rise in anesthesiology resident positions across the country, is it really in the best interest for a governor to dissuade residents from training or practicing in their state by opting out of the Medicare rules for participation?

With nurse anesthetist salaries beyond the $100,000 range and with their numbers shrinking, can they really make an argument against the expansion of anesthesiologist assistants (AAs) whose training applicants do not directly undermine the efforts to increase the general nursing workforce?

As anesthesiology, AA and even nurse practitioner programs continue to increase their numbers, what impact will nurse anesthetists have in bucking the trend? Is fighting for independent practice really the consensus of the vast majority of the rank-and-file nurse anesthetists? If the 25 percent nonparticipation in AANA membership is accurate, I would surmise that an increasing number of nurse anesthetists espouse ASA?s anesthesia care team model or are disgruntled over current AANA policy. Even if AANA succeeds in this political victory, what impact will it have if fewer nurses practice anesthesia with each successive year? How many surgeons will feel comfortable or can comply with the practice of general anesthesia in their offices supplied only by an independent nurse anesthetist? Are there so many as to make any real difference?

As Robert Frost once wrote about the road not taken, so too, the AANA might reflect on what might have been. As for ASA and the American Academy of Anesthesiologists? Assistants, they will continue to expand, develop and improve in order to provide the safest and most cost-effective means of delivering anesthesia to the estimated 35 million to 40 million surgical patients. Nurse anesthetists who adhere to the anesthesia care team model may soon have the opportunity to choose between two organizations regarding membership. ASA directors are discussing a proposal to extend its ?Educational? membership to nurse anesthetists who openly support the care team model. Should approval be granted, AANA may then discover if its course of action was in the best interests of its constituents...
 
I have read through these posts and I notice so many med students/residents saying to bring anesthesia back to the physicians. Just skimming the research service, it is pretty common knowledge that Anesthetics started as "nursing" specialty. I agree that AnesthesiOLOGY has brought us from just administering ether to more sophisticated and safer techniques. No doubt that physicians are more proned to conducting research and pushing the the specialty forward AND are responsible for the major developments in the field. However, its origin is in nursing. I guess many of you refer to this as the "doing". While the "thinking" started in medicine.

Furthermore, I think it is quite naive for med students and/or residents to declare that they won't work in a practice with CRNAs...especially since its pretty common knowledge that they administer 65% of anesthesia given in this country. Let's be realistic..this will be quite a difficult task. The bottom line is the care of the patient. And talk of not sharing procedures or teaching them sounds like these future-anesthesiologists could give two beeps about the patients...which I know can't possibly be the case. I agree with the post that stated this is really a political isse vs social/work place issue. The truth is, and pretty easily found through research, that CRNAs and MDAs work in teams/groups more often than not. This whole debate is truly disheartening and really a bunch of hoopla for nothing. Truth is the VAST majority of lay people are ignorant and of all specialities anesthesiology is the most underrated and forgotten about. At this point I have had 2 kids, and was in so much pain i didn't give a hoot who was administering my epidural and I am a med student. Going into surgery, most people are concerned with the actual surgery and surgeon and don't even give a second thought to being anesthetized until the CRNA or MDA comes in 5 minutes before administering. Lay people dont realize the importance of the specialty and many assume that they are getting great care because they are in a hospital. So I am really tired of folks using 'patients opinions' as their main argument in either direction.

I think respect is the issue. The truth is a new MDA may not hold a candle in experience to a 25 year veteran CRNA....despite how many years of education. We all know by now that its the man hours logged working that really provides the education. Most of these arguments are based on a new CRNA vs a new MDA...odds are there won't be many head to head comparisons like this available. So why can't we all just get along? Does everything have to be so catty?

BTW, CRNAs are getting more and more into research and obtaining PHDs or DNsc...looking to improve the area as well. And let's not front, many of us looking at specialties as med students are looking at Anesth. because of the better reported hours than surgery. So whoever posted that nonsense about CRNAs not seeing their work as anything but a job and clocking in and out and physicians being so readily willing to stay and work 100s of hrs a week is NUTS. Many veteran CRNAs sees their work as a career, just as easily as new MDAs are trying to move up in rank as quickly as possible to limit the amount of call or gain more flexibility or say in their hours. If we are going to post, let's just keep it real.
 
If you REALLY want to bring up the history of anesthesia, it was a physician who administered the first anesthetic.😉
 
Sorry to break the news to you, but in most desirable (West Coast) metropolitan areas, including Hawaii, anesthesiologists administer all general anesthetics, perform all epidurals, and do all major invasive procedures themselves. That is unless you go to Kaiser...The 65% you mention is not San Diego, Newport Beach, Honolulu, San Francisco, West LA, etc. It is rural and semi-rural areas that have a hard time recruiting anesthesiologists. Why do you think anesthesiologist salaries are $100,000 more in Modesto, CA than in Santa Monica? Because the demand for anesthesiologists in places like that is that great. Hospitals that have any level above the bare mnimum of services need highly skilled and specialized anesthesiologists on staff to consult and administer/supervise anesthetics to very complicated patients. As a poster who previously mentioned I wouldn't work with CRNAs, I hardly feel that I am naive regarding anesthesiology. What is naive is to oversimplify things as many who are still in medical school do, and assume the only people who present for surgery are elective, medically stable/optimized patients. The **** often is hitting the fan not during surgery but before it. That's why some people need surgery. You won't realize this until A, your do a surgical residency or internship, or B, you start your anesthesiology training. As for patient care, I do believe that I can deliver perfectly adequate, if not superior patient care without CRNA assistance. Amazing, right? I guess my knowledge of preoperative risk stratification, preoperative optimization, post-operative care, and pain management techniques are barely the equal of or even lesser than the nurses. Improving patient care is why physicians need to stay involved in the care of patients! To reason otherwise is illogical. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you honestly believe that only experience counts and that a degree and the education behind that degree mean nothing, than do away with medical school entirely. Why is the previous poster even in med school if all she needs is some allied health training and 25 years of experience? Anesthesiologists and all MD's for that matter will continue to be at the forefront of medicine in the future. Our knowledge, passion, and leadership in patient care are undeniable. It's ludicrous to even believe for a second the chicken little "sky is falling" stories being posted on these forums. If you believed half these wanna be doc delusional nuts, you'd also believe the next Chairman of Medicine at Harvard will be a PA doing cardiac caths, and Dr. Miller will step down to let the next editor-in-chief of "Anesthesia" be a nurse anesthetist. The point about nurses committing themselves to further pt care and not clock-in and clock-out is ridiculous as well. Nurses, including CRNAs are GONE when their shift is up. The anesthesiologists and surgeons are the ones making sure their patients are stable before they go home. They also happen to be ethically and legally responsible for their patients overall condition as well. Research-wise, Medicine, including anesthesiology would be in the stone age if it were not for scientists and physicians. When was the last time you picked up the most recent copy of "Anesthesiology" and saw the highlighted novel research article of the month authored by the department of nurse anesthesia or physician's assistant cardiology at the Widget School of Allied Health School ? Still skeptical? Take anesthesiology while were on this forum. Did nurses research, invent, and refine: pulse oximetry, arterial blood gas measurements, mechanical ventilation, end-tidal CO2 measurements, Apgar scoring, etc? No, anesthesiologists did. By the way, those inventions are among the most important in all of medicine in the last fifty years in reagrds to patient safety and care. As for myself, since I plan on returning to Honolulu to practice, I am not being naive in the slightest in saying I won't be working with nurses until they stop their militant campaign to practice medicine unsupervised. Unless you work for Kaiser or Straub, it's all MD's here. And I'm quite sure I won't be compromising patient care in the process.
 
At the end of the day, when it is all said and done, it's going to come down to what it always comes down to -- not patient preference, not length or quality of practitioner training, not experience, not ANYONES opinions, not any anecdotal or empirical evidence as to who does "the best" job, but, yes, you guessed it: THE ALMIGHTY DOLLAR.

This is especially true as we move more toward managed care systems. Whoever can do the job for the lowest salary and (once more complete actuarial data is available) cost the organization the least in malpractice insurance will "get the job."
 
You're exactly right. The almight dollar.

Was reading about how much money an anesthesiologist-run preoperative evaluation system could save HMO's and hospitals. Much of this is based simply on smart patient management, with a tincture of evidence-based practice. Hundreds of thousands, per year. With improved patient satisfaction, too!

Complications can get pretty expensive, too. Heck, prevent a single week of ICU-stay from a complication? You may have just paid for a year's salary of an anesthesiologist. Not to mention avoiding a lawsuit...

But I disagree; penny-pinching by HMO's is an important factor, but that seems to be changing. The successful threat of lawsuits posed in the past few years, as well as the horrid public image, have taken their toll on HMO's. Patients continue to be better educated, and can start to make choices for themselves.

In this respect, anesthesiology is no different from any other specialty of medicine. Sure, some practitioners can apparently do it better, faster and cheaper. Some actually do. But in the final analysis, it is an MD who is ultimately responsible.
 
I feel like people are repeating themselves...unnecessarily. No one needs to convince me of the importance of MDAs. I said in my first post that they are essential to the advances of the specialty. However, i think the misconception is that to make MDAs important means to diminish the importance or competence of CRNAs. That is where my problem is. Its as plain as day. People are taking individual experiences and generalizing them accross the board...when we all know the world does NOT work this way. This is why i pointed out that you can find cases in either direction. I agree that it will probably come down to the almighty dollar. However, I think as all caregivers its important to respect each other...period. Are people reading other posts...the same debates are going on between MD and DO; NP and PAs; Ob/gyn and Midwifery....essentially everyone is stuck in this battle of who's better by downing the other.

Furthermore, who says west coast is the most desirable place to work. lol let's stop splitting hairs 65% of US is just that the US....irregardless of where the majority are concentrated. But i live on the eastcoast(which is the most desirable place to me) and CRNAs are doing quite a bit. At any rate, I don't think it matters ultimately...was my point. It seems the best way to go to better serve the patient is working in a team environment.

BTW i am a med student because i realize the limitations of other allied health professions. I have never claimed there would be a CRNA running a department etc...but it won't change their level of competence.
 
I agree that we should all respect each other. When I, and most other anesthesiologists get pissed off is when people disrepect the level of training that we have. CRNAs wont get any respect from us, until they respect us. Respect our level of training, and we'll respect yours(CRNAs). If you want to say your level of training is comprable, then go through what it takes to be an MDA, and THEN come talk to me. And yes, I know that there are CRNAs who respect our training and I am not referring to them. If you want to diagnose and formulate a treatment plan, you should have to become a physician. PERIOD. There should be no shortcuts.
 
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