CRNA

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

bedrock

Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2005
Messages
7,425
Reaction score
5,004
Drive is good but this history makes me trust CRNA ability less, not more.

Members don't see this ad.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_0031.jpeg
    IMG_0031.jpeg
    91.5 KB · Views: 358
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I guess it’s hard to believe someone would publicly shame himself as he fails to achieve some pretty easy accomplishments.
Maybe he’s real and just a weirdo. Idk
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I guess it’s hard to believe someone would publicly shame himself as he fails to achieve some pretty easy accomplishments.
Maybe he’s real and just a weirdo. Idk

Big difference between an MD and a mid level is that an MD would be mortified to fail their boards…..particularly more than once, while a mid level thinks it’s a badge of honor to fail repeatedly until they convince someone in BFE to accept their sorry selves.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 11 users
He honestly thinks he’s humble bragging, but like with his job, he doesn’t realize how bad he is at it.

Sadly it’s just a matter of perspective at the end of the day. To us, it’s absurd. To his thousands of followers not in medicine, it’s an inspirational story.
 
  • Sad
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
Sadly it’s just a matter of perspective at the end of the day. To us, it’s absurd. To his thousands of followers not in medicine, it’s an inspirational story.


I wouldn’t want to be his patient knowing that he is a serial flunky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Sadly it’s just a matter of perspective at the end of the day. To us, it’s absurd. To his thousands of followers not in medicine, it’s an inspirational story.
Assuming it’s all true…

I give him some minor credit for persistence in making it to his end goal. There’s some good in sharing one’s “failure” along the way to encourage others on their journey.

But let’s be real - I don’t want that guy ever touching my patients after barely making it into and through the diploma mill sham enterprise that crna schools are these days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 8 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Assuming it’s all true…

I give him some minor credit for persistence in making it to his end goal. There’s some good in sharing one’s “failure” along the way to encourage others on their journey.

But let’s be real - I don’t want that guy ever touching my patients after barely making it into and through the diploma mill sham enterprise that crna schools are these days.
This exemplifies the underlying difference between CRNAs and physicians that rarely gets mentioned.
A physician experiences about 40-50 (maybe more) “weed out” events in their journey to become a physician. This includes the premed and honors sciences in biology/genetics/biochem/organic chem/physics etc that are just a normal part of the process for a student who is premed. At my school, these classes weeded out 80% of people who started college as premeds. Then, of those who finish the prerequisites and apply for medical school, the MCAT weeds out a whole bunch more. Then, of those who apply, the interview process weeds out a bunch more and only some get accepted. Then comes first year of med school. That takes another five or so percent. Maybe more. USMLE knocks out a few more. Clinicals weed out a few more who can’t cut it. Step two takes a few out. Then, every year, there are many who cannot attain a residency. Then internship knocks a few out. Residency is difficult and a small percentage cannot complete it. Anesthesiology board exams are some of the most difficult boards out there with the lowest overall pass rates. There is a Basic, Advanced, Oral, and OSCE component. Any one of which can throw a huge monkey wrench into the process. Then you get a job and try to become a partner or whatever the equivalent might be for the private equity group and some can’t make it at that point. The point is, at each step in the process, people are hitting barriers that they cannot get past, whether it is a high stakes and challenging course or exam or being held to the highest standards by residency programs for knowledge and procedural skills.
Meanwhile, nurses often take the non science major biology and chemistry classes and experience no weed out classes. Often doing nursing school as a second career and taking on line classes or night school while earning a living during the day. They graduate and work as a nurse and often immediately take an ICU job where they implement physician orders all day, yet count that as 1-2 years of their “training” while earning great money at it. They apply to CRNA schools and get in on the first try with no troubles. They skate through the couple of years of school (getting their 5 observations of cardiac cases among other things. Maybe they do one central line). Then they study for their boards and take a computer exam that has a greater than 99% pass rate. They literally know when they take the exam if they passed or not. If they are doing well enough on the first 3/4 of the exam, it shuts it down and they do not even have to take the last portion. If they are doing poorly, the exam extends to a few more questions to see if they can recover. So, if a CRNA says they failed the “board exam,” keep those things in mind. They are literally in the bottom less than one percentile nationally. But you know what? They don’t wash out. They take it again a few weeks later and then again. So if someone has failed it twice, you are dealing with the worst of the worst CRNAs. Almost all eventually pass and move on. And that 99+% pass rate exam was their final high stakes exam and the key to a super high earning potential and the right to be called “Dr” (in their minds).
I forgot to mention how they are “doctorally prepared” through online nursing classes, of which zero percent are clinical and most deal with things like advocacy, how to read a scientific paper, integration of computers in medicine etc. almost half of the doctoral classes are preparation work for their “research thesis.” This thesis is the equivalent of preparing half of a grand rounds talk. The only research is a literature review of the research of others and then a collation of that review into a 25-30 minute presentation. If you start the program and pay your tuition, you finish the program >99% of the time. There are very few opportunities for a CRNA to wash out of the program.
The pool of applicants for med school and residency are typically the best and brightest the entire path along the decade plus pathway. The applicant pool for nursing and CRNA training is several standard deviations lower in quality and the barriers to get in and succeed at every level are minimal. The comparison of applicant pools that start the process in each field is not even close. It’s laughable when you consider it in this manner. In medicine, the weed out process is intense at so many branch points. In nursing, the starting point and applicant pools are vastly different and everyone finishes the race.
Think about how many “premeds” started alongside you in college and how many of them made it all the way. Likely less than 5%, I would venture. Then compare that to being in the nursing program and a desire to go on to be a CRNA. If they are willing to pay the tuition money, almost all will make it. Probably greater than 90%. The ones that don’t typically just lose interest, don’t wish to take the time needed, are unwilling to take on the debt burden, or are just lazy bad nurses. The bar is set fairly low and most make it if they really want to.
Then, next thing you know, you’re a nurse doctor.
I saw one person brag about their “doctoral” NP program and how they had worked so hard through a series of life challenges that were significant. They bragged that they worked at their nursing job all day and did their NP and doctoral work at night and faced these challenges in life at the same time. They graduated with a 4.0 gpa at the top of their class having never taken any breaks despite illnesses that required hospitalization and other challenges. I was happy for them that they had accomplished that but the glaring point that I took away from that was that the program they were in was NOT a rigorous program if they could be away with an illness that much and still graduate on time and number one in their class ( likely tied for number one with 75% of their cohort).
That is what it is all about. There are terrible anesthesiologists and there are awesome CRNAs and maybe there is some overlap where a small number of CRNAs are better than the worst anesthesiologists. But, by definition, a physician is going to be better trained and brighter 99% of the time due to the pathways that each group have taken to get where they are.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 20 users
Then they study for their boards and take a computer exam that has a greater than 99% pass rate. They literally know when they take the exam if they passed or not. If they are doing well enough on the first 3/4 of the exam, it shuts it down and they do not even have to take the last portion. If they are doing poorly, the exam extends to a few more questions to see if they can recover. So, if a CRNA says they failed the “board exam,” keep those things in mind.

I can't believe this is real. Is this real? Jesus.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Think about how many “premeds” started alongside you in college and how many of them made it all the way. Likely less than 5%, I would venture. Then compare that to being in the nursing program and a desire to go on to be a CRNA. If they are willing to pay the tuition money, almost all will make it. Probably greater than 90%. The ones that don’t typically lose interest, don’t wish to take the time needed, are unwilling to take on the debt burden, or are just lazy bad nurses. The bar is set fairly low and most make it if they really want to.
I saw this when I started college. My honors college orientation for the college of science biological sciences division had my group in a lecture hall and asked who was planning on going to med school. I was the only one who didn't raise my hand (I was going to do marine biology and absolutely NOT medicine). They said less than 10% of the people in the room would actually go to med school, but there are a multitude of options for jobs for people in the college of science.

My mom trained as an RN in the 70s. She said the top people in her class remained RNs, the second tier, who spent most of nursing school partying, became CRNAs and admin. I'm not sure how that works, but she has been against CRNAs since the 70s even before she met my dad working at an academic hospital because of the people with whom she went to nursing school.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
But it exemplifies the underlying difference between CRNAs and physicians that rarely gets mentioned.
A physician experiences about 40-50 (maybe more) “weed out” events in their journey to become a physician. This includes the premed and honors sciences in biology/genetics/biochem/organic chem/physics etc that are just a normal part of the process for a student who is premed. At my school, these classes weeded out 80% of people who started college as premeds. Then, of those who finish the prerequisites and apply for medical school, the MCAT weeds out a whole bunch more. Then, of those who apply, the interview process weeds out a bunch more and only some get accepted. Then comes first year of med school. That takes another five or so percent. Maybe more. USMLE knocks out a few more. Clinicals weed out a few more who can’t cut it. Step two takes a few out. Then, every year, there are many who cannot attain a residency. Then internship knocks a few out. Residency is difficult and a small percentage cannot complete it. Anesthesiology board exams are some of the most difficult boards out there with the lowest overall pass rates. Then you get a job and try to become a partner or whatever the equivalent might be for the private equity group and some can’t make it at that point. The point is, at each step in the process, people are hitting barriers that they cannot get past, whether it is a high stakes and challenging course or exam or being held to the highest standards by residency programs for knowledge and procedural skills.
Meanwhile, nurses often take the non science major biology and chemistry classes and experience no weed out classes. Often doing nursing school as a second career and taking on line classes or night school while earning a living during the day. They graduate and work as a nurse and often immediately take an ICU job where they implement physician orders all day, yet count that as 1-2 years of their “training” while earning great money at it. They apply to CRNA schools and get in on the first try with no troubles. They skate through the couple of years of school (getting their 5 observations of cardiac cases among other things. Maybe they do one central line). Then they study for their boards and take a computer exam that has a greater than 99% pass rate. They literally know when they take the exam if they passed or not. If they are doing well enough on the first 3/4 of the exam, it shuts it down and they do not even have to take the last portion. If they are doing poorly, the exam extends to a few more questions to see if they can recover. So, if a CRNA says they failed the “board exam,” keep those things in mind. They are literally in the bottom less that one percentile nationally. But you know what? They don’t wash out. They take it again a few weeks later and then again. So if someone has failed it twice, you are dealing with the worst of the worst CRNAs. Almost all eventually pass and move on. And that 99+% pass rate exam was their final high stakes exam and the key to a super high earning potential and the right to be called “Dr” (in their minds). I forgot to mention how they are “doctorally prepared” through online nursing classes, of which zero percent are clinical and most deal with things like advocacy, how to read a scientific paper, integration of computers in medicine etc. almost half of the doctoral classes are preparation work for their “research thesis.” This thesis is the equivalent of preparing half of a grand rounds talk. The only research is a literature review of the research of others and then a collation of that review into a 25-30 minute presentation. If you start the program and pay your tuition, you finish the program >99% of the time. There are very few opportunities for a CRNA to wash out of the program.
The pool of applicants for med school and residency are typically the best and brightest the entire path along the decade plus pathway. The applicant pool for nursing and CRNA training is a few standard deviations lower in quality and the barriers to get in and succeed at every level are minimal. The comparison of applicant pools that start the process in each field is not even close. It’s laughable when you consider it in this manner. In medicine, the weed out process is intense at so many branch points. In nursing, the starting point and applicant pools are vastly different and everyone finishes the race.
Think about how many “premeds” started alongside you in college and how many of them made it all the way. Likely less than 5%, I would venture. Then compare that to being in the nursing program and a desire to go on to be a CRNA. If they are willing to pay the tuition money, almost all will make it. Probably greater than 90%. The ones that don’t typically lose interest, don’t wish to take the time needed, are unwilling to take on the debt burden, or are just lazy bad nurses. The bar is set fairly low and most make it if they really want to.
Then, next thing you know, you’re a nurse doctor.
I saw one person brag about their “doctoral” NP program and how they had worked so hard through a series of life challenges that were significant. They bragged that they worked at their nursing job all day and did their NP and doctoral work at night and faced these challenges in life at the same time. They graduated with a 4.0 gpa at the top of their class having never taken any breaks despite illnesses that required hospitalization and other challenges. I was happy that they had done that but the glaring point that I took away from that was that the program they were in was NOT a rigorous program if they could be away with an illness that much and still graduate on time and number one in their class ( likely tied for number one with 75% of their cohort).
To me, that is what it is all about. There are terrible anesthesiologists and there are awesome CRNAs and maybe there is some overlap where a small number of CRNAs are better than the worst anesthesiologists. But, by definition, a physician is going to be better trained and brighter 99% of the time due to the pathways that each group have taken to get where they are.
Phenomenal summary! I'd insert the "Wayne's World we're not worthy" meme but am not that savvy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Man, I’d love to see which questions he got wrong. Or maybe I wouldn’t. Depends on how far away from me he works.
 
Man, I’d love to see which questions he got wrong. Or maybe I wouldn’t. Depends on how far away from me he works.

I’d love to see the questions he got right. I’m short on time and need a quicker read.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
But it exemplifies the underlying difference between CRNAs and physicians that rarely gets mentioned.
A physician experiences about 40-50 (maybe more) “weed out” events in their journey to become a physician. This includes the premed and honors sciences in biology/genetics/biochem/organic chem/physics etc that are just a normal part of the process for a student who is premed. At my school, these classes weeded out 80% of people who started college as premeds. Then, of those who finish the prerequisites and apply for medical school, the MCAT weeds out a whole bunch more. Then, of those who apply, the interview process weeds out a bunch more and only some get accepted. Then comes first year of med school. That takes another five or so percent. Maybe more. USMLE knocks out a few more. Clinicals weed out a few more who can’t cut it. Step two takes a few out. Then, every year, there are many who cannot attain a residency. Then internship knocks a few out. Residency is difficult and a small percentage cannot complete it. Anesthesiology board exams are some of the most difficult boards out there with the lowest overall pass rates. There is a Basic, Advanced, Oral, and OSCE component. Any one of which can throw a huge monkey wrench into the process. Then you get a job and try to become a partner or whatever the equivalent might be for the private equity group and some can’t make it at that point. The point is, at each step in the process, people are hitting barriers that they cannot get past, whether it is a high stakes and challenging course or exam or being held to the highest standards by residency programs for knowledge and procedural skills.
Meanwhile, nurses often take the non science major biology and chemistry classes and experience no weed out classes. Often doing nursing school as a second career and taking on line classes or night school while earning a living during the day. They graduate and work as a nurse and often immediately take an ICU job where they implement physician orders all day, yet count that as 1-2 years of their “training” while earning great money at it. They apply to CRNA schools and get in on the first try with no troubles. They skate through the couple of years of school (getting their 5 observations of cardiac cases among other things. Maybe they do one central line). Then they study for their boards and take a computer exam that has a greater than 99% pass rate. They literally know when they take the exam if they passed or not. If they are doing well enough on the first 3/4 of the exam, it shuts it down and they do not even have to take the last portion. If they are doing poorly, the exam extends to a few more questions to see if they can recover. So, if a CRNA says they failed the “board exam,” keep those things in mind. They are literally in the bottom less that one percentile nationally. But you know what? They don’t wash out. They take it again a few weeks later and then again. So if someone has failed it twice, you are dealing with the worst of the worst CRNAs. Almost all eventually pass and move on. And that 99+% pass rate exam was their final high stakes exam and the key to a super high earning potential and the right to be called “Dr” (in their minds). I forgot to mention how they are “doctorally prepared” through online nursing classes, of which zero percent are clinical and most deal with things like advocacy, how to read a scientific paper, integration of computers in medicine etc. almost half of the doctoral classes are preparation work for their “research thesis.” This thesis is the equivalent of preparing half of a grand rounds talk. The only research is a literature review of the research of others and then a collation of that review into a 25-30 minute presentation. If you start the program and pay your tuition, you finish the program >99% of the time. There are very few opportunities for a CRNA to wash out of the program.
The pool of applicants for med school and residency are typically the best and brightest the entire path along the decade plus pathway. The applicant pool for nursing and CRNA training is a few standard deviations lower in quality and the barriers to get in and succeed at every level are minimal. The comparison of applicant pools that start the process in each field is not even close. It’s laughable when you consider it in this manner. In medicine, the weed out process is intense at so many branch points. In nursing, the starting point and applicant pools are vastly different and everyone finishes the race.
Think about how many “premeds” started alongside you in college and how many of them made it all the way. Likely less than 5%, I would venture. Then compare that to being in the nursing program and a desire to go on to be a CRNA. If they are willing to pay the tuition money, almost all will make it. Probably greater than 90%. The ones that don’t typically lose interest, don’t wish to take the time needed, are unwilling to take on the debt burden, or are just lazy bad nurses. The bar is set fairly low and most make it if they really want to.
Then, next thing you know, you’re a nurse doctor.
I saw one person brag about their “doctoral” NP program and how they had worked so hard through a series of life challenges that were significant. They bragged that they worked at their nursing job all day and did their NP and doctoral work at night and faced these challenges in life at the same time. They graduated with a 4.0 gpa at the top of their class having never taken any breaks despite illnesses that required hospitalization and other challenges. I was happy that they had done that but the glaring point that I took away from that was that the program they were in was NOT a rigorous program if they could be away with an illness that much and still graduate on time and number one in their class ( likely tied for number one with 75% of their cohort).
To me, that is what it is all about. There are terrible anesthesiologists and there are awesome CRNAs and maybe there is some overlap where a small number of CRNAs are better than the worst anesthesiologists. But, by definition, a physician is going to be better trained and brighter 99% of the time due to the pathways that each group have taken to get where they are.
Should sticky this post at the top of the "mid-level discussion" page.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Drive is good but this history makes me trust CRNA ability less, not more.
this guys is a clown - i've called him out plenty of times, but his followers are rabid; and he's delusional
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Top