Culture problem in Dental School

[redhotchiligochu]

As requested by a few users a while back, what are some things that your dental school have turned a blind eye toward, or have failed to fix?

BS “undergrad” classes like biochem/micro/path taught in a format that doesn’t conform to NBDE I, unrealistic/idealistic criteria in Operative lab, small town mentality, false advertisement of “diversity,” and a snitching/catty culture come to mind regarding my DS, particularly my graduating class.

Disclaimer: the above statement and contributions below are for illustrative purposes only. Any resemblance to actual events or persons is purely coincidental. Also, PLEASE do NOT mention the name of your school! For obvious reasons...

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[Svart Aske]

At the time, many of our perio residents acted like dicks and thought their s**t didn't smell. They probably felt empowered by some of the "big name" perio faculty and administrators.

I think it's better now.

 

[BlackThought]

"big name" perio faculty

oxymoron.

Edit: This was a joke. Stop with the oversensitive PMs. Thank you.

 

[Svart Aske]

oxymoron.

Not to get into another OMS vs perio mud slinging contest but I hope we can all at least recognize some of the important contributions periodontists have made to our knowledge of implant dentistry and tissue regeneration.

 

[cjddds]

False sense of diversity, oh and one more thing I’ve noticed from experiences of others:
They seem to pick the ones they want to repeat a year of school early on and then the “progression” committee decides the fate of these people but mysteriously it’s always a boy and a girl in the D2 class without fail that has to remediate a year without explanation or without any form of appeal.
Another thing: no boards preparation really.... we are taught to memorize recalls from old exams and that is supposed to get us by. We are taught to take tests and nothing more. When boards rolls around it then becomes our responsibility to figure out how to pass them and that’s why 10-12% of my class had to retake boards. That’s a big number for a once bragging “100% first time pass rate”. So in light of that they purchased the (Cr)aplan (Kaplan) program (textbook and question bank) for the class below us since ours was so deficient in passing first time
Oh and one more thing: we have D4s teach a class when the professor isn’t an actual licensed ******odontist (specialty left out to be less specific) yet.
Wait let me get to the best part: some people pass through with a breeze while others don’t get such an easy ride based on if their parents donate or not
Oh and they only let about 11% diversity into each class. More would be such a problem. I’m not happy with the diversity aspect or how the upper level faculty handle everything but I guess it’s all a $$$ game to give them your tuition in exchange for a piece of paper

 

[TanMan]

As requested by a few users a while back, what are some things that your dental school have turned a blind eye toward, or have failed to fix?

BS “undergrad” classes like biochem/micro/path taught in a format that doesn’t conform to NBDE I, unrealistic/idealistic criteria in Operative lab, small town mentality, false advertisement of “diversity,” and a snitching/catty culture come to mind regarding my DS, particularly my graduating class.

Disclaimer: the above statement and contributions below are for illustrative purposes only. Any resemblance to actual events or persons is purely coincidental. Also, PLEASE do NOT mention the name of your school! For obvious reasons...

Turf wars in dental school were/are a big problem. Ortho was ridiculously overprotective of their own, you got perio, OS, implant "specialists", prosth, and even endo in the implant game. Don't let those specialty departments tell you what you can and can't do as a GP.

Oh, and don't get me started on the Tucker gold cult at our school. We had a partial gold requirement in our school, and I did the most useless reverse 3/4ths crown.

I can probably go on and on, but I'll save it for later.

 

[2TH MVR]

Turf wars in dental school were/are a big problem. Ortho was ridiculously overprotective of their own, you got perio, OS, implant "specialists", prosth, and even endo in the implant game. Don't let those specialty departments tell you what you can and can't do as a GP.

Oh, and don't get me started on the Tucker gold cult at our school. We had a partial gold requirement in our school, and I did the most useless reverse 3/4ths crown.

I can probably go on and on, but I'll save it for later.

My gold foil restorations have proved useful. 😀

 

[TanMan]

My gold foil restorations have proved useful. 😀

Older endodontists used to love gold foil, especially with all the irreversible pulpitis from the heated hammering of the tooth. It's great for ultraconsevative restorations, just terrible on deeper ones due to pulpitis.

 

[Faefly]

They seem to pick the ones they want to repeat a year of school early on and then the “progression” committee decides the fate of these people but mysteriously it’s always a boy and a girl in the D2 class without fail that has to remediate a year without explanation or without any form of appeal.

This is very scary, do these people that they choose to fail, do badly in labs or in the didactic portion or is it just a random student they don't like?

 

[cjddds]

This is very scary, do these people that they choose to fail, do badly in labs or in the didactic portion or is it just a random student they don't like?

Random student who has perhaps had an absence or two due to illness or excused reasons, or another excused absence of some sort, but was able to make up the work missed while absent. They just decide you repeat sometimes based on the luck of the draw and how many absences you have had, or so I’ve heard, even if you catch up to speed on work missed. And that is honestly a form of discriminatory retaliation in my opinion.

 

[Captain Underplants]

False sense of diversity, oh and one more thing I’ve noticed from experiences of others:
They seem to pick the ones they want to repeat a year of school early on and then the “progression” committee decides the fate of these people but mysteriously it’s always a boy and a girl in the D2 class without fail that has to remediate a year without explanation or without any form of appeal.
Another thing: no boards preparation really.... we are taught to memorize recalls from old exams and that is supposed to get us by. We are taught to take tests and nothing more. When boards rolls around it then becomes our responsibility to figure out how to pass them and that’s why 10-12% of my class had to retake boards. That’s a big number for a once bragging “100% first time pass rate”. So in light of that they purchased the (Cr)aplan (Kaplan) program (textbook and question bank) for the class below us since ours was so deficient in passing first time
Oh and one more thing: we have D4s teach a class when the professor isn’t an actual licensed ******odontist (specialty left out to be less specific) yet.
Wait let me get to the best part: some people pass through with a breeze while others don’t get such an easy ride based on if their parents donate or not
Oh and they only let about 11% diversity into each class. More would be such a problem. I’m not happy with the diversity aspect or how the upper level faculty handle everything but I guess it’s all a $$$ game to give them your tuition in exchange for a piece of paper

Not sure what school you're at but 11% Board fails is cray high; especially since the exams have literally gotten so repetitive that there are no new questions at all.

 

[Likkriue]

With regards to the boards thing, why does it matter what the school forces you to do. You just have to hit up dental mastery app and then a textbook and go through it lol. Could be first aid or BnB.

 

[sb.tnh]

Not sure what school you're at but 11% Board fails is cray high; especially since the exams have literally gotten so repetitive that there are no new questions at all.

With regards to the boards thing, why does it matter what the school forces you to do. You just have to hit up dental mastery app and then a textbook and go through it lol. Could be first aid or BnB.

Agree with these 2 comments. Our professors specifically said that they don’t teach boards preparation but rather knowledge necessary for you to become a doctor. From my experience, people who fail boards at my school (3-4 people every year) are those who did not care enough. Boards preparation can be easily done on your own in 3 weeks using the plethora of study materials available.

 

[cjddds]

With regards to the boards thing, why does it matter what the school forces you to do. You just have to hit up dental mastery app and then a textbook and go through it lol. Could be first aid or BnB.

I think I misworded what I was trying to say. Let me break it down.
1. I meant they give us exams in each class that are basically the same as the year before so we aren’t even learning the material in the class to begin with, thus not even preparing us for boards or clinical applications of the material
2. Yes it doesn’t matter in a sense there are people who study a week’s worth of deck flashcards and they are fine but when you already don’t know the course material due to your in class exams being so easy and repetitive, it almost seems like second nature that they should give you some sort of guidance on how to study for boards instead of throwing you out there to search and figure it out on your own
3. I passed the first time but it wasn’t because of recalls for boards lol it was thanks to B&B Dental I mean otherwise I would’ve been screwed. Didn’t quite like decks and honestly my boards exam didn’t have much recall from Tangy or Satyam Joshi’s files

 

[cjddds]

I think I know this school... lol

Beyond that point of boards I just think my school fails at diversity and I can tell you from people who work at the school that some people only get in and out due to their parents or grandparents donating or their parents becoming supervising faculty on clinical floors. There’s two girls in my class whose dads literally jumped into clinic so that they can make sure their kids slide on by. It’s a little irritating that the helicopter dentist parent can actually be a presence that academic affairs allows to impact a decision of a student but hey it happens and that’s why some of these kids graduating end up with malpractice law suits because they shouldn’t have gone to dental school but did thanks to mom or dad being there at the school

 

[ZestyToothpaste]

They seem to pick the ones they want to repeat a year of school early on and then the “progression” committee decides the fate of these people but mysteriously it’s always a boy and a girl in the D2 class without fail that has to remediate a year without explanation or without any form of appeal.

This tended to be a POC student at my dental school and the white privilege student who should have failed were pushed along. One white male student in my graduating class (who cheated his way through dental school) had a wife who was an alum and mom who worked as a non-clinical administrator for the dental school. He was way under-qualified, not even having a bachelor's and never had taken more than 3 classes a semester for his prereqs through his own admission. Yet, the school decided to make a POC student with a phD in Anatomy and Physiology repeat a year 😵

 

[cjddds]

This tended to be a POC student at my dental school and the white privilege student who should have failed were pushed along. One white male student in my graduating class (who cheated his way through dental school) had a wife who was an alum and mom who worked as a non-clinical administrator for the dental school. He was way under-qualified, not even having a bachelor's and never had taken more than 3 classes a semester for his prereqs through his own admission. Yet, the school decided to make a POC student with a phD in Anatomy and Physiology repeat a year 😵

You nailed it on the head. That’s exactly what happens in my school.

 

[ZestyToothpaste]

Are you a female poc?

It’s best not to jump to conclusions in a matter like this without knowing the full story.

I'm someone who witnessed this along with my entire dental school and you're right.. people shouldn't jump to conclusions but in a matter like this the facts speak for themselves.

Also can we take note how you weren't there to witness it and yet you've concluded that I'm jumping to conclusions lol 🤔

 

[yappy]

This sounds like a white dude in my class. He failed many classes as well as the NBDE so he can't see patients in clinic yet. He has a fiancee who is an alum, this girl comes to lab to do all the lab work and pre-clinic stuff for him. But eventually he will graduate with the rest of our class and become a dentist just like everyone else, our school almost never made anyone repeat a year. I cringe at the idea of him working on patients without supervision from a faculty.

Seems suspect.

 

[GoDental101]

This tended to be a POC student at my dental school and the white privilege student who should have failed were pushed along. One white male student in my graduating class (who cheated his way through dental school) had a wife who was an alum and mom who worked as a non-clinical administrator for the dental school. He was way under-qualified, not even having a bachelor's and never had taken more than 3 classes a semester for his prereqs through his own admission. Yet, the school decided to make a POC student with a phD in Anatomy and Physiology repeat a year 😵

This sounds like a white dude in my class. He failed many classes as well as the NBDE so he can't see patients in clinic yet. He has a fiancee who is an alum, this girl comes to lab to do all the lab work and pre-clinic stuff for him. But eventually he will graduate with the rest of our class and become a dentist just like everyone else, our school almost never made anyone repeat a year. I cringe at the idea of him working on patients without supervision from a faculty.

Why do you include the individuals race and gender in your statement to make your point?

 

[setdoc7]

Diversity in dental education has been a long standing issue, and remains one today. ADEA is having it's second meeting on diversity this coming October at the fall meeting. Last year it was at the fall meeting in Toronto. The people who attend this meeting do not have to, as they represent the diversity in the profession. Those that should attend, those from schools with no diversity, are not present. And that is how dentistry looks in the 21st century.
I have heard enough about pipeline programs for high school and college students. I have heard enough about schools that already admit a diverse class and have a diverse faculty.
If schools wish to attract students of color, Native Americans, or any other group, then they should go out and get them, not wait for applicants to show up at the door step. Identify schools and colleges which have possible applicants of interest, and recruit them. Make the offers appealing. Make sure you are going to stand behind these offers.
Lots of dental schools are part of a larger university system. Some of these schools have highly ranked Division 1 teams. These schools definitely know how to recruit ball players. How about a few diverse dental students?

 

[fellowstudent92]

You guys keep hammering about diversity in the class but you have never been on an admissions committee in dental school so you dont know the composition and quality of the applicant pool. It's important to not accept people simply based on diversity but a combination of diversity and quality. These are what I call simply complaints without an ability to rectify them.

 

[buytheflosstobetheboss]

Aside from race and social class being a factor, I've even witnessed ageism and body shaming keep others from being admitted to dental school. What I've found is that many faculty are looking for a body of students to make their jobs easier and maintain their status quo of comfort--that's at any job, honestly. If they have to actually go outside their comfort zones to get to know students from other backgrounds, it's usually a "no" on the said applicant, unless the applicant doesn't present themselves as too affirmative or as a non-threat. The majority of many faculty at most dental schools is white, retired, and upper middle class. I'm not saying this population is a default for discrimination per se. Much of the population of professors is removed from the culture that which students may bring to the table. And even from my experience, many of them do not attempt to reach out and get to know students from diverse backgrounds. As setdoc7 mentioned, if diversity is the goal, then intentional recruitment has to happen!

 

[DrJeff]

Aside from race and social class being a factor, I've even witnessed ageism and body shaming keep others from being admitted to dental school. What I've found is that many faculty are looking for a body of students to make their jobs easier and maintain their status quo of comfort--that's at any job, honestly. If they have to actually go outside their comfort zones to get to know students from other backgrounds, it's usually a "no" on the said applicant, unless the applicant doesn't present themselves as too affirmative or as a non-threat. The majority of many faculty at most dental schools is white, retired, and upper middle class. I'm not saying this population is a default for discrimination per se. Much of the population of professors is removed from the culture that which students may bring to the table. And even from my experience, many of them do not attempt to reach out and get to know students from diverse backgrounds. As setdoc7 mentioned, if diversity is the goal, then intentional recruitment has to happen!

This concept of faculty reaching out to get to know students from diverse backgrounds, while certainly great in concept, also presents a bit of a conundrum in today's day and age. Professional school faculty have always had the challenge of being in an educational environment where the students, over the course of their time in the professional school go from "students" to "colleagues" - just having to navigate that transition is challenging, and can present some tough situations, where one student/colleague may feel that a faculty member is being preferential to someone else in their class and not themselves. Sometimes that may be just the simple fact that certain personalities tend to get along easier with each other than others, and it has nothing to do with one's academic ability, physical appearance, social background, race, sex, etc, etc, etc.

There's also the challenge from the student/new colleague perspective sometimes of the "why doesn't Dr X like me?" since for many in a professional school, they've always had a great degree of success, and often haven't learned to properly handle that some people may not have the same interests as them. This can come across as "why don't they like me?" which certainly can change the mindset of that person, when it may very well be just as simple as that person accepts you, but doesn't fully seem to "love" some of your own interests, and that's far different than that person rejecting you for your own interests. For example, so many people profess a love of ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored. Frankly, I don't like ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored (seriously!) I am fine with those who slide the bowl of ranch dip at me over a bowl of veggies or crackers at a party, I don't reject them for doing so, I just don't like that flavor, but still am able to get along with the person sliding the ranch dip at me. It's a tough thing sometimes to understand and accept that not everyone will like or have interests in everything that you do, that's far different the vast majority of times than that other person rejecting you over your likes or interests, which it can certainly feel like to someone who may be looking for enthusiastic support, which is different than acceptance, and far different than rejection. My honest opinion is that there's far less actual "rejection" of people by other people in today's society than it may feel like. There's arguably more acceptance of other people than at anytime ever. There's never going to be 100% "embracing" of everything about everyone by everyone though, that's just a Utopian concept. This entire concept is certainly a very dynamic area of discussion, and one where we often need to remember that just because someone may have a different opinion of something than we, ourselves, do, it doesn't make their opinion "wrong" and ours "right" as everyone is entitled to their own opinion in a diverse, inclusive society

 

[setdoc7]

This concept of faculty reaching out to get to know students from diverse backgrounds, while certainly great in concept, also presents a bit of a conundrum in today's day and age. Professional school faculty have always had the challenge of being in an educational environment where the students, over the course of their time in the professional school go from "students" to "colleagues" - just having to navigate that transition is challenging, and can present some tough situations, where one student/colleague may feel that a faculty member is being preferential to someone else in their class and not themselves. Sometimes that may be just the simple fact that certain personalities tend to get along easier with each other than others, and it has nothing to do with one's academic ability, physical appearance, social background, race, sex, etc, etc, etc.

There's also the challenge from the student/new colleague perspective sometimes of the "why doesn't Dr X like me?" since for many in a professional school, they've always had a great degree of success, and often haven't learned to properly handle that some people may not have the same interests as them. This can come across as "why don't they like me?" which certainly can change the mindset of that person, when it may very well be just as simple as that person accepts you, but doesn't fully seem to "love" some of your own interests, and that's far different than that person rejecting you for your own interests. For example, so many people profess a love of ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored. Frankly, I don't like ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored (seriously!) I am fine with those who slide the bowl of ranch dip at me over a bowl of veggies or crackers at a party, I don't reject them for doing so, I just don't like that flavor, but still am able to get along with the person sliding the ranch dip at me. It's a tough thing sometimes to understand and accept that not everyone will like or have interests in everything that you do, that's far different the vast majority of times than that other person rejecting you over your likes or interests, which it can certainly feel like to someone who may be looking for enthusiastic support, which is different than acceptance, and far different than rejection. My honest opinion is that there's far less actual "rejection" of people by other people in today's society than it may feel like. There's arguably more acceptance of other people than at anytime ever. There's never going to be 100% "embracing" of everything about everyone by everyone though, that's just a Utopian concept. This entire concept is certainly a very dynamic area of discussion, and one where we often need to remember that just because someone may have a different opinion of something than we, ourselves, do, it doesn't make their opinion "wrong" and ours "right" as everyone is entitled to their own opinion in a diverse, inclusive society

Once again my call for psychological/personality testing for incoming applicants. Perhaps even for the faculty. JDE had an article about unconscious bias and found that it was most prevalent in the faculty. Perhaps good scores in Openess is the key to change.

 

[HatInTheCat]

This concept of faculty reaching out to get to know students from diverse backgrounds, while certainly great in concept, also presents a bit of a conundrum in today's day and age. Professional school faculty have always had the challenge of being in an educational environment where the students, over the course of their time in the professional school go from "students" to "colleagues" - just having to navigate that transition is challenging, and can present some tough situations, where one student/colleague may feel that a faculty member is being preferential to someone else in their class and not themselves. Sometimes that may be just the simple fact that certain personalities tend to get along easier with each other than others, and it has nothing to do with one's academic ability, physical appearance, social background, race, sex, etc, etc, etc.

There's also the challenge from the student/new colleague perspective sometimes of the "why doesn't Dr X like me?" since for many in a professional school, they've always had a great degree of success, and often haven't learned to properly handle that some people may not have the same interests as them. This can come across as "why don't they like me?" which certainly can change the mindset of that person, when it may very well be just as simple as that person accepts you, but doesn't fully seem to "love" some of your own interests, and that's far different than that person rejecting you for your own interests. For example, so many people profess a love of ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored. Frankly, I don't like ranch dressing and anything ranch flavored (seriously!) I am fine with those who slide the bowl of ranch dip at me over a bowl of veggies or crackers at a party, I don't reject them for doing so, I just don't like that flavor, but still am able to get along with the person sliding the ranch dip at me. It's a tough thing sometimes to understand and accept that not everyone will like or have interests in everything that you do, that's far different the vast majority of times than that other person rejecting you over your likes or interests, which it can certainly feel like to someone who may be looking for enthusiastic support, which is different than acceptance, and far different than rejection. My honest opinion is that there's far less actual "rejection" of people by other people in today's society than it may feel like. There's arguably more acceptance of other people than at anytime ever. There's never going to be 100% "embracing" of everything about everyone by everyone though, that's just a Utopian concept. This entire concept is certainly a very dynamic area of discussion, and one where we often need to remember that just because someone may have a different opinion of something than we, ourselves, do, it doesn't make their opinion "wrong" and ours "right" as everyone is entitled to their own opinion in a diverse, inclusive society

Agreed, but what happens when that same level of interest that both the faculty and student/future applicant share becomes an implicit bias that influences the subjectivity that is often found in evaluating one’s work or when it comes time to apply to residencies post graduation? Or let’s put it this way:

There’s a professor I know of who targets students with “privilege” in clinic and make their lives a living hell, regardless of the level of clinical expertise they bring. Those students, ironically, note they’ll never book with that faculty who, I think, is pleasant towards me. I’m not suggesting everyone gets a “like me” certificate for the hell of it, but I’m suggesting people not pretend that bias doesn’t negatively impact one’s success in dental school.

 

[TanMan]

Aside from race and social class being a factor, I've even witnessed ageism and body shaming keep others from being admitted to dental school. What I've found is that many faculty are looking for a body of students to make their jobs easier and maintain their status quo of comfort--that's at any job, honestly. If they have to actually go outside their comfort zones to get to know students from other backgrounds, it's usually a "no" on the said applicant, unless the applicant doesn't present themselves as too affirmative or as a non-threat. The majority of many faculty at most dental schools is white, retired, and upper middle class. I'm not saying this population is a default for discrimination per se. Much of the population of professors is removed from the culture that which students may bring to the table. And even from my experience, many of them do not attempt to reach out and get to know students from diverse backgrounds. As setdoc7 mentioned, if diversity is the goal, then intentional recruitment has to happen!

My question is why does diversity matter? Why can't selection be based primarily on academic standards and standardized testing without regards to race? Are people implying that the academic standards, systems, and standardized testing are racially biased? I'm not sure if there's some pipedream that URM's will go to underserved areas because they are underrepresented, but I think there's one thing overrides loyalty to geography -- money. Some people may argue that it gives a diverse opinion and so on... but how would a racial view affect the technical aspects of a root canal or class II? In a technically demanding profession, there's many ways to perform a treatment, but I don't think that in most instances, race plays a role besides for extractions. Certain demographics have hardass bone. Maybe if you were going into public policy and dental public health, could you make the argument that a racially diverse background of opinions would be critical to understanding racial/societal/cultural barriers for access to dental care. If that were the case, then race could matter if they were doing a DDS/MPH combined program. Otherwise, in a more technically demanding training, academic rigor/manual dexterity should come #1.

Anyway, I think that forcing diversity is a terrible idea. People should be judged on merit, but the whole system is corrupt. From forced diversity to pay to play, it's not always going to be fair. If you want to admit people because you don't have "enough" of a race, remember the person who never got that spot because they weren't the right race. Also, getting in is only the first step. If you admit someone who wasn't as academically qualified due to a racial quota and they couldn't hack it, the next problem is whether you hold them back or artificially prop them up with advantages not given to others in fulfillment of a dream that everyone is capable if they put their mind to it. Unfortunately, that has happened in my dental school experience, and we look down upon that individual for having unlimited test time, taking the test whenever they want, retakes as needed, etc...

Main point: Pick primarily based on academics. I don't believe that objective multiple choice tests that we take in college and dental school are discriminatory against races. I think they are discriminatory against people who aren't good test takers or poor academic performers. The interviews definitely have selection bias too and that's where race plays a role for those that have these biases. Interviews allow the schools to see if you're a good fit for their program as a person, but a great sociopath can easily fool these interviews.

Once again my call for psychological/personality testing for incoming applicants. Perhaps even for the faculty. JDE had an article about unconscious bias and found that it was most prevalent in the faculty. Perhaps good scores in Openess is the key to change.

What is the objective of having a psych/personality test? These types of tests come along as quite sketchy. If used to admit students into dental school, this reminds me of going towards something like China's Social Credit System. If you don't subscribe to a certain ideology, you won't get into dental school.

 

[HatInTheCat]

My question is why does diversity matter? Why can't selection be based primarily on academic standards and standardized testing without regards to race? Are people implying that the academic standards, systems, and standardized testing are racially biased? I'm not sure if there's some pipedream that URM's will go to underserved areas because they are underrepresented, but I think there's one thing overrides loyalty to geography -- money. Some people may argue that it gives a diverse opinion and so on... but how would a racial view affect the technical aspects of a root canal or class II? In a technically demanding profession, there's many ways to perform a treatment, but I don't think that in most instances, race plays a role besides for extractions. Certain demographics have hardass bone. Maybe if you were going into public policy and dental public health, could you make the argument that a racially diverse background of opinions would be critical to understanding racial/societal/cultural barriers for access to dental care. If that were the case, then race could matter if they were doing a DDS/MPH combined program. Otherwise, in a more technically demanding training, academic rigor/manual dexterity should come #1.

Anyway, I think that forcing diversity is a terrible idea. People should be judged on merit, but the whole system is corrupt. From forced diversity to pay to play, it's not always going to be fair. If you want to admit people because you don't have "enough" of a race, remember the person who never got that spot because they weren't the right race. Also, getting in is only the first step. If you admit someone who wasn't as academically qualified due to a racial quota and they couldn't hack it, the next problem is whether you hold them back or artificially prop them up with advantages not given to others in fulfillment of a dream that everyone is capable if they put their mind to it. Unfortunately, that has happened in my dental school experience, and we look down upon that individual for having unlimited test time, taking the test whenever they want, retakes as needed, etc...

Main point: Pick primarily based on academics. I don't believe that objective multiple choice tests that we take in college and dental school are discriminatory against races. I think they are discriminatory against people who aren't good test takers or poor academic performers. The interviews definitely have selection bias too and that's where race plays a role for those that have these biases. Interviews allow the schools to see if you're a good fit for their program as a person, but a great sociopath can easily fool these interviews.



What is the objective of having a psych/personality test? These types of tests come along as quite sketchy. If used to admit students into dental school, this reminds me of going towards something like China's Social Credit System. If you don't subscribe to a certain ideology, you won't get into dental school.

You do realize that URM admits are a drop in the bucket of total admits, right? Most of what you argue is a moot point when we consider that. I’m not discussing admissions criteria. What I’m dissecting are the politics of dental school that tend to favor legacy students and certain persons from sociopolitical/socioeconomic backgrounds that offer those dental students more advantages to obtaining residencies and connections that other students may not have.

 

[TanMan]

You do realize that URM admits are a drop in the bucket of total admits, right? Most of what you argue is a moot point when we consider that. I’m not discussing admissions criteria. What I’m dissecting are the politics of dental school that tend to favor legacy students and certain persons from sociopolitical/socioeconomic backgrounds that offer those dental students more advantages to obtaining residencies and connections that other students may not have.

That, I don't think there's much you can do about, unless there's ethical committees and organizations with actual teeth to punish these institutions. Most punishments are essentially show trials with a sacrifice or two included. My dental school had and still has this problem. It's a definite problem, but dental schools prioritize one thing: profit. Whether it's a public donation or backdoor donation, I don't think the dental school would refuse a large sum of money for admission, nor with a department director. Nepotism is strong when it comes to dentistry because schools, students, and alumni are such a close community (especially in specialties) that if you know somebody that has power in the school, you're in. Topped off with money of course.

Is it wrong? Yes. Will anything be done about it? I don't think so. Most students are smart enough to not **** where they eat. Dental school is just a terrible environment that most alumni don't care about the dental school afterwards. Those that got in are smart enough not to make waves for fear of being blacklisted from a specialty program, being held back, or punished arbitrarily. People applying for admission won't/can't do much either because they can't intimidate their way into a dental program and I don't think pre-dents are altruistic enough to care about the fairness of legacy and socioeconomic advantages. Once they get their admissions, they probably won't complain. What incentives does the administration to change from favoring legacy donors and connections?

 

[HatInTheCat]

That, I don't think there's much you can do about, unless there's ethical committees and organizations with actual teeth to punish these institutions. Most punishments are essentially show trials with a sacrifice or two included. My dental school had and still has this problem. It's a definite problem, but dental schools prioritize one thing: profit. Whether it's a public donation or backdoor donation, I don't think the dental school would refuse a large sum of money for admission, nor with a department director. Nepotism is strong when it comes to dentistry because schools, students, and alumni are such a close community (especially in specialties) that if you know somebody that has power in the school, you're in. Topped off with money of course.

Is it wrong? Yes. Will anything be done about it? I don't think so. Most students are smart enough to not **** where they eat. Dental school is just a terrible environment that most alumni don't care about the dental school afterwards. Those that got in are smart enough not to make waves for fear of being blacklisted from a specialty program, being held back, or punished arbitrarily. People applying for admission won't/can't do much either because they can't intimidate their way into a dental program and I don't think pre-dents are altruistic enough to care about the fairness of legacy and socioeconomic advantages. Once they get their admissions, they probably won't complain. What incentives does the administration to change from favoring legacy donors and connections?

Agreed 200% with what you say here. It’s a tough hand of cards to play for four years, but nonetheless they must be played.

 

[TanMan]

Agreed 200% with what you say here. It’s a tough hand of cards to play for four years, but nonetheless they must be played.

The problem is who's going to sacrifice everything to try and make things right? This reminds me a bit of game theory. If the whole class agrees to participate, the questions would be, what do they hope to gain, do they really have a chance of making changes, who's willing to risk their dental degree for the sake of fairness when they are already in dental school with a large amount of debt looming over their heads, and what's the consequences of retaliation and likelihood?

The one I bolded is probably the most important to each self serving dental student.

 

[TanMan]

u sound like someone who got into trouble quite a bit in dental school lol also i somewhat disagree that all dental schools care about is profit... i think reputation/ego is what dominates academia including dental school. turning a profit and having a stable financial system are important in the sense that it will help schools achieve their long term goals/missions through hiring promising faculty or expanding facilities/attracting better applicants etc, which will all ultimately make the school look better to the public.

i'd like to compare dental school - student relationship to that of parent-child in that all parents want their kids to succeed and to make them proud when they grow up and for them to do great things but some parents are not afraid to disown them when their kids are out of control even after becoming an adult

LOL what makes you think I got in trouble in dental school?

 

[Mason91]

Are you a female minority?

It’s best not to jump to conclusions in a matter like this without knowing the full story.

For someone who's saying it's best not to jump to conclusions, you pretty quickly jumped to the conclusion that she's a female minority LOL.

 

[setdoc7]

My question is why does diversity matter? Why can't selection be based primarily on academic standards and standardized testing without regards to race? Are people implying that the academic standards, systems, and standardized testing are racially biased? I'm not sure if there's some pipedream that URM's will go to underserved areas because they are underrepresented, but I think there's one thing overrides loyalty to geography -- money. Some people may argue that it gives a diverse opinion and so on... but how would a racial view affect the technical aspects of a root canal or class II? In a technically demanding profession, there's many ways to perform a treatment, but I don't think that in most instances, race plays a role besides for extractions. Certain demographics have hardass bone. Maybe if you were going into public policy and dental public health, could you make the argument that a racially diverse background of opinions would be critical to understanding racial/societal/cultural barriers for access to dental care. If that were the case, then race could matter if they were doing a DDS/MPH combined program. Otherwise, in a more technically demanding training, academic rigor/manual dexterity should come #1.

Anyway, I think that forcing diversity is a terrible idea. People should be judged on merit, but the whole system is corrupt. From forced diversity to pay to play, it's not always going to be fair. If you want to admit people because you don't have "enough" of a race, remember the person who never got that spot because they weren't the right race. Also, getting in is only the first step. If you admit someone who wasn't as academically qualified due to a racial quota and they couldn't hack it, the next problem is whether you hold them back or artificially prop them up with advantages not given to others in fulfillment of a dream that everyone is capable if they put their mind to it. Unfortunately, that has happened in my dental school experience, and we look down upon that individual for having unlimited test time, taking the test whenever they want, retakes as needed, etc...

Main point: Pick primarily based on academics. I don't believe that objective multiple choice tests that we take in college and dental school are discriminatory against races. I think they are discriminatory against people who aren't good test takers or poor academic performers. The interviews definitely have selection bias too and that's where race plays a role for those that have these biases. Interviews allow the schools to see if you're a good fit for their program as a person, but a great sociopath can easily fool these interviews.



What is the objective of having a psych/personality test? These types of tests come along as quite sketchy. If used to admit students into dental school, this reminds me of going towards something like China's Social Credit System. If you don't subscribe to a certain ideology, you won't get into dental school.

Please leave racism and bias, whether implicit or overt off this site. If you are unaware of why affirmative action is not only necessary but law, then please crawl back under the rock from which you came and study some US history. And if you truly believe that all Americans have an “equal” opportunity, you must not venture out into the world we call America. Any doubts....I refer you to our own study in the Journal of Dental Education (ADEA’s refereed journal) on implicit bias. You are part of the problem, not the solution. You need some social justice remediation. Luckily you are not in a position to make any admissions decisions.

 

[setdoc7]

u sound like someone who got into trouble quite a bit in dental school lol also i somewhat disagree that all dental schools care about is profit... i think reputation/ego is what dominates academia including dental school. turning a profit and having a stable financial system are important in the sense that it will help schools achieve their long term goals/missions through hiring promising faculty or expanding facilities/attracting better applicants etc, which will all ultimately make the school look better to the public.

i'd like to compare dental school - student relationship to that of parent-child in that all parents want their kids to succeed and to make them proud when they grow up and for them to do great things but some parents are not afraid to disown them when their kids are out of control even after becoming an adult

You are on the outside of a broken system, and your parent/child analogy could not be further from the truth. You would like to believe that faculty have your best interests at heart. You do not leave room for the faculty that enjoy the power and personal agenda they can exert in frightened students afraid of disciplinary action.
Most people do not know how to lead and manage when put into a leadership position. Too often it becomes a power trip

 

[DrJeff]

You are on the outside of a broken system, and your parent/child analogy could not be further from the truth. You would like to believe that faculty have your best interests at heart. You do not leave room for the faculty that enjoy the power and personal agenda they can exert in frightened students afraid of disciplinary action.
Most people do not know how to lead and manage when put into a leadership position. Too often it becomes a power trip

The issue at hand seems to be one where the concept of what a professional school faculties primary role is, and that is to train and educate professionals who will be working on patients and in a way where if not done correctly, could potentially cause great harm to a patient. That is a far different role than that of a primary, secondary, or college level teacher/faculty member.

This basic concept that a professional school faculty should be a very similar experience to what one has had from an instructor standpoint prior to entering a professional school, frankly isn't correct, and IMHO nor should it be. While the transfer of knowledge and/or skill sets from the teacher to the student is similar in big picture concept, the mastery level at which the knowledge needs to be demonstrated from the student back towards the faculty is at a much higher level. This can certainly create some feelings of bias, preference, etc between students and faculty, and that then can open the door to interject the concept of it must be because of X, Y, Z (race, sex, etc, etc) when in actuality it may just be because of poor knowledge or skill set demonstration by the student towards the faculty. That is likely the cause of perceived preferential treatment or bias more often than actual true instances of faculty towards student bias/preferential treatment. It can happen for sure. not disputing that. It can also feel like it happens because of a number of reasons that have absolutely to do with bias/preferential treatment and all to do about training a competent clinician

 

[setdoc7]

I once again refer you to real research, not anecdotal rambling. Further, faculty at our dental schools are for the most part dentists, not teachers, and have little or no training in teaching techniques or philosophy. Teachers in all walks of life bring their bias to school. Why would dental school be immune?

 

[DrJeff]

I once again refer you to real research, not anecdotal rambling. Further, faculty at our dental schools are for the most part dentists, not teachers, and have little or no training in teaching techniques or philosophy. Teachers in all walks of life bring their bias to school. Why would dental school be immune?

Guess that we'll just have to agree to disagree with this one. I understand your points, and agree that everyone, be they an educator or any person you meet on the street, will always have some degree of what can be perceived as bias, and that is what makes them who they are, and that is unavoidable as humans.

Yes, many dental school faculty were trained as dentists first, and haven't had a formal, degree based program in education. Their job is to teach the students how to diagnose and treatment plan and then how to "fix" the problems diagnosed and treatment planned. There's not much room for "bias" in what is or isn't caries, or what is or isn't a cross bite or what is or isn't advanced periodontitis. If someone has a problem identifying those, or doesn't have the skill set to effective treat those, that's not bias, that's an objective observation.

A dental school education is about learning factual biological processes. There's not a bunch of room for bias in that. Again, it comes down to then how a student perceives the faculty and their educational style more often than actual faculty on student bias. That is very often caused by the 44 month educational experience that is dental school that is far different than any prior educational experiences that dental students have gone through.

Again, I don't dispute at all that there are some isolated instances of faculty bias towards some students

 

[TanMan]

Please leave racism and bias, whether implicit or overt off this site. If you are unaware of why affirmative action is not only necessary but law, then please crawl back under the rock from which you came and study some US history. And if you truly believe that all Americans have an “equal” opportunity, you must not venture out into the world we call America. Any doubts....I refer you to our own study in the Journal of Dental Education (ADEA’s refereed journal) on implicit bias. You are part of the problem, not the solution. You need some social justice remediation. Luckily you are not in a position to make any admissions decisions.

Yep, I'm pretty much going to outline why you raise some red flags. First, you attack by invoking racism (good way to attack and discredit, I'll admit). Second, invoke social justice (as a system of "fairness"). All I'm going to say is that these are the hallmarks of your stereotypical SJW. That, combined with your call for personality tests and "social justice remediation", reveals the extreme nature of your views. I am painted as having committed a thoughtcrime and that I am in need for "social justice remediation". I'll leave it up to the readers to determine what "remediation" really means.

Thankfully, I am not in a position to make admissions decisions , but I would be more concerned about people such as yourself making admissions decisions, what you would ask your potential candidates in your interviews, and what if these potential candidates had conflicting views that were not your own.

Edit: I just thought of the real world equivalent of remediation... The reeducation camps in Xinjiang.

 

[setdoc7]

It appears that the basic misconception befalling Dr Jeff and TanMan is that everyone is treated equally. Once you get past that idea, the rest becomes clear. Not everyone is treated equally in dental school from day one, before grades, before practicals, before you wax your first incisor. Bias starts from day one. JDE clearly stated that when measuring bias, the faculty, not the students, ranked highest.

 

[DrJeff]

It appears that the basic misconception befalling Dr Jeff and TanMan is that everyone is treated equally. Once you get past that idea, the rest becomes clear. Not everyone is treated equally in dental school from day one, before grades, before practicals, before you wax your first incisor. Bias starts from day one. JDE clearly stated that when measuring bias, the faculty, not the students, ranked highest.

Just a simple question for you Setdoc7....

How is "bias" measured? Is there some objective test for measuring it? Or is it all of a subjective nature?

 

[2TH MVR]

I would opine that a certain amount of bias is inevitable. You just cannot pretend that bias does not exist. Bias exists because all people were raised differently with different parental values, experiences and education. As a person goes through life ... they draw upon those past experiences to establish assumptions. It's these assumptions that get us into trouble. I'm guilty myself and thankfully my millennial daughter is trying to re-educate me.

There is hope and I believe we as a society are moving in the right direction. But in order to change your assumptions based on life experiences ... you have to recognize that bias does exist in every aspect of our lives.

 

[setdoc7]

I invite you to read "Color Blind Racial Beliefs Among Dental Students and Faculty" published int the Journal Of Dental Education (ADEA's official journal),
Septenber 2017 issue. It describes the use and validity of CoBRAS, color blind racial attitude scale developed by Neville, et al. It also relates it's validity and how it was used. As with most refereed journals, the nature of the study is based on evidence as opposed to conjecture.

 

[TanMan]

I would opine that a certain amount of bias is inevitable. You just cannot pretend that bias does not exist. Bias exists because all people were raised differently with different parental values, experiences and education. As a person goes through life ... they draw upon those past experiences to establish assumptions. It's these assumptions that get us into trouble. I'm guilty myself and thankfully my millennial daughter is trying to re-educate me.

There is hope and I believe we as a society are moving in the right direction. But in order to change your assumptions based on life experiences ... you have to recognize that bias does exist in every aspect of our lives.

How is your millennial daughter trying to "reeducate" you? My operating assumption is that everyone is biased and racist in one form or another. It's a safe operating assumption and the big question is why and how can you work that to your advantage?

Race and culture go hand in hand. Statistical operation based on the understanding of cultures will give you an interpersonal advantage when dealing of said individuals in a given culture. For example, in my area, it's mostly women that are the decision makers of the household. The minority is an inverse of what I just mentioned, moreso of a machismo culture. So, from a business perspective, what do I target? Women. I am playing the odds by advertising to women. Understanding these things do not lead to bias directly, but give an initial idea on what to target and how to interact. However, for fairness sake, that's more macro, rather than interpersonal bias. I believe there is positive and negative ways to use bias. If you're using bias to exclude someone solely because of racial/ethnic backgrounds, then that's a negative use of bias. A positive use of bias is to understand cultural norms and priorities of your target population(s) to better improve the initial interactions and patient-doctor relationship. There are certain races that are extremely distrustful of healthcare providers and understanding the reason why allows you to go in the room and spark a connection faster and better than if you went in there blindly with no understanding of the patient's potential background whatsoever.

The word bias sounds bad, but I think it's how bias is used - it can be for good or bad. You have to have some form of operating assumptions for the initial interpersonal encounters, but evolving how your initial parameters based on subsequent interactions is key to maintaining good relations with your patients.

Not sure if this makes any sense, but this is how I look at it from a business perspective.

 

[setdoc7]

No comment on the journal article? I suppose research is not held in high regard.

 

[DrJeff]

No comment on the journal article? I suppose research is not held in high regard.

Research, especially objective, research is held in high regard. And one of the things that I think we should all agree upon, is that when one reads a research paper/article they should take some time to look at the references, as well as the background information that the authors base their paper on.

In this case, I went back and looked at some of Helen Neville's other works, and the basis for CoBRA's.

I found one very interesting thing, that as I read it, sure made it seem like the entire CoBRA model is based off of the premise of the CBRI (Color blind racial ideology theory) model, which has at one of its cores, as Neville puts it in her paper in entitled "Color Blind Racial Ideology Theory, Training ad Measurement Implementation in Psychology" published in the American Psychologist in 2013 "Given our view of CBRI as an ultramodern form of racism - particularly among White Americans" to me sure reads as the authors have gone into their paper with the premise of widespread bias and racism, and have chosen, subjectively (since what constitutes bias and racism will very from whomever you ask), data measurement systems that at their core have the notion that starts with racism, is it that unexpected that further articles by the author and her colleagues, will yield results that conclude that racism and bias are there and widespread? The clinician side of me seems to think that this is as much of a warning flag about the results as when a manufacturer sponsors a paper that concludes that their latest product is the best thing ever, but don't take the time to fully disclose the basis of the support behind the study that made that conclusion.

Again, I am not disputing that there are certainly some unfortunate and totally out of place, reprehensible incidents of faculty towards student bias/racism event across the dental education world. I am sure there are. Trying though to define what is very much a subjective thing for all parties involved, in an objective way, and not acknowledge that there most certainly is some degree of subjectivity involved in the conclusions just isn't solid research in my book

 

[setdoc7]

I am going to actively control my sometimes difficult personality and simply state that your supposition is based on the possibility of racism existing. This, is the basis factor which raises my blood pressure. Racism in its most basic and vile form is alive and well. Discounting it only adds to it. Neville does not have to prove there is racial bias to measure it. Do I have to prove to you that gravity exists?

 

[DrJeff]

I am going to actively control my sometimes difficult personality and simply state that your supposition is based on the possibility of racism existing. This, is the basis factor which raises my blood pressure. Racism in its most basic and vile form is alive and well. Discounting it only adds to it. Neville does not have to prove there is racial bias to measure it. Do I have to prove to you that gravity exists?

With the exception of my reply in this thread asking about how "Bias" is measured, In all other of my replies, I fully acknowledged that yes there are certainly instances where racism/bias unfortunately does exist in the dental school education process, I agree with you that it does exist, I am not arguing with you that it doesn't exist.

What the issue seems to be that is causing this discourse between us, is how racism and/or bias is measured, something that can be difficult to do, since that is of a subjective nature. This isn't a simple, objectively measured topic. What may be a "life altering" event of perceived racism and/or bias for 1 person may be a non event for another person. Is either of those people wrong? Nope. Unlike an objective entity, such as what is the dentin bond strength in vitro of a specific bonding agent, what defines racism or bias is something that is unique to each and every person, and as such, blanket type statements about it are not as provable as something such as does gravity exist.