Current CAP Program Impressions?

[scruffy821]

Hi friends, I'm a general psych resident considering Child & Adolescent Psychiatry fellowship.

For those of you who applied to CAP fellowship recently or are within the CAP community - what's the current scoop on the different major academic CAP fellowship programs and their reputations within the field? I'm most curious about the following:

- East Coast: Yale, NYU, Columbia/Cornell, Mount Sinai, MGH, CHA, Brown, UPitt
- Midwest: Northwestern, UChicago, WashU
- West Coast: UCLA, Stanford, UCSF

I looked around SDN and couldn't find much up-to-date info. I'm seeking general impressions about these programs; things like strength of clinical training, research opportunities, faculty mentorship, reputation/prestige, curriculum flexibility, call schedules, fellow happiness & wellness, etc. are all fair game. I appreciate any insight y'all have to offer!

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[Merovinge]

That's unfortunately a really broad question given that programs will definitely have specific strengths and weaknesses across that extremely large list of categories. If there is a specific condition you plan to do research in or become a specialist in, then I think it makes sense to talk to some academic CAP folk and see where the absolute industry leaders are for that one thing. There are basically 0 remotely prestigious CAP programs that are malicious; it's already rare in adult psych and almost unheard of in the CAP world.

Of the Midwest programs you are looking at, Northwestern has long had a very punishing call schedule that they were notorious for but they have also had huge changes and turned over almost all their faculty and their chair, so I'm told that might be changing or already have changed. Lurie's childrens hospital is a perennial top 10 childrens hospital and while not quite CHOP or Boston's children it is very much in that tier of seeing best possible overall peds care. UofC is a substantially weaker CAP program than NW but is still a great program that is very fellow friendly and my colleagues who graduated from there felt very happy with the training. WashU also has a great children's hospital and is the only real game in St Louis meaning they get lots of tertiary referrals (like Lurie's) if that type of training environment interests you.

UPMC is an incredible CAP program. I've been lucky enough to train with 2 graduates from UPMC and both were stellar. They essentially run psychiatry for most of the state of Pennsylvania and are a huge organization which definitely provides a lot of resources to trainees.

 

[Monocles]

OP I interviewed at Yale, MGH, CHA, and Brown out of your list.

All of the programs you listed above would have excellent clinical training, great faculty, and research opportunities if you're interested.

The other factors might be more different.

Prestige-wise, Man's Greatest Hospital ;p is obviously most well known by name but you would be well sought after graduating from any of those. MGH does seem to work infinitely harder than the rest (and work-life balance is paramount to me so their hours scared me to the point that they were the only program I didn't rank haha...)

In terms of happiness, Brown seemed to have the happiest fellows and best work-life balance out of those 4.

Curriculum wise Yale does a lot of OCD stuff, Cambridge is more therapy oriented (play therapy being notably unique), Brown has a lot of partial program exposure, whereas MGH tries to train people to be "best at everything" (or so I was told). At MGH they really try to be hands off and you can basically design your own curriculum as long as you stay within certain graduation guidelines.

Call hours is probably MGH > Yale > Cambridge > Brown (I think Brown has minimal and all calls are paid?). I ... uh, may or may not have made an excel sheet calculating call hours for all my programs haha

I think all of those programs are fantastic and it's more about having the "best fit" for you as a person!

GL with apps!

 

[scruffy821]

That's unfortunately a really broad question given that programs will definitely have specific strengths and weaknesses across that extremely large list of categories. If there is a specific condition you plan to do research in or become a specialist in, then I think it makes sense to talk to some academic CAP folk and see where the absolute industry leaders are for that one thing.

Yep, totally agreed that my question was extremely broad! I just wanted to get a general lay of the land and hear absolutely anything that people had to offer about any of those categories, truly any info is helpful (and hopefully will be useful to other forum readers in the future). I will definitely address more personal specifics too, I think your idea (@Merovinge) of speaking with CAP faculty about my academic interests makes a ton of sense. Thank you for the information about Northwestern, UChicago, WashU, and UPMC -- that is all extremely useful!

And @Monocles, your outlining of MGH/Yale/CHA/Brown was also very informative insight, thank you so so much. Congrats on the CAP match!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

There are a lot of other programs not on the list of "usual suspects" that will serve you very well, too. U Washington, OHSU (great PD), Michigan, Dartmouth...just to name a few.

 

[scruffy821]

There are a lot of other programs not on the list of "usual suspects" that will serve you very well, too. U Washington, OHSU (great PD), Michigan, Dartmouth...just to name a few.

Thank you @OldPsychDoc! I had narrowed my list a bit just based on some of my spouse's geographic preferences for work, but I would still love to learn about other CAP fellowship programs you guys recommend. I appreciate your insight!

 

[kirkirkir]

Great thread! Any more insights from these programs?

 

[Sushirolls]

Choose a program that doesn't have call...

 

[box8psych]

Thank you for posting this! I am also applying this year and would be especially interested in any information on California programs. The main feedback I've gotten so far is that since the training at any of the big name/prestigious institutions is essentially uniformly good, it ends up being the call schedules and location that dictate a lot of one's happiness/satisfaction with a program. This of course changes if you want to specialize or do research in a particular disorder (as previous posts mentioned) which may point you towards one program that also focuses on that particular topic. I did a rotation at UCLA inpatient CAP unit as an MS4 and loved it, and I've heard nothing but great things about that program generally. I've also spoken to some people at USC and UCSD, so feel free to DM me if you want more info. Good luck on the upcoming application cycle!

 

[clozareal]

Here is info about the California fellowship programs that were asked about:

UCLA:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months inpatient CAP (25 beds over 3 units: eating disorder, adolescent, child), 4 months C/L which also covers the ED, 4 months partial hospitalization program (age 6-12, 3 primary cases, 3 "med back-ups"), one longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: 2-3 times per month, 5-9pm, covers the ED, direct admissions to inpt unit, C-L coverage. No overnight or weekend call EVER.
• CAP2 rotations: Core Clinics (anxiety, mood, trauma, forensic, school, psychopharm, neurodevelopmental, county) + Electives (lots!), two longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$72k, PGY5 ~74k; $12k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks of vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $3k annual meal card, $1k educational fund, full reimbursement for conferences, professional memberships, trainings
• 7 fellows/year, including one research track resident

Stanford:

• CAP1 rotations: 3 months C-L which covers the ED, 3 months eating disorders inpatient unit, 3 months IOP, 6 weeks inpatient (13-17 years old), 6 weeks scholarly project (the only program to offer this much for all fellows, the next would be NYU/WashU which offer 4 weeks in CAP2 year), 3 longitudinal psychotherapy cases (one CBT, one young child, one family therapy)
  • Call: q9 weekday call overnight (4:30pm-9am) plus 5-6 weekends (Fri 5pm to Mon 8am), home call but come in if necessary, if you get called in after 10pm then you have the next day off. Covers the C-L service which includes the ED, eating disorders unit, outpatient calls.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (anxiety, mood, early psychosis, autism and neurodevelopmental disabilities, eating disorders, med psych/pain, general psych, children's health council) + electives (lots!)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$81k, PGY5 $87k; $7200 additional housing stipend per year, 3 weeks vacation, $3k moving allowance x1, $2k educational allowance per year, $1k cell phone allowance per year, 5 days new parent leave, $500 per conference and $1000 if presenting
• 9 fellows/year, including one community track resident. Can apply for T32 by spring of CAP1 year which would split CAP2 year into two years with research throughout those two years.

UCSF:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months C-L (if in SF no ED since there is a separate child crisis service, if in Oakland covers the ED too), 4 months IOP or inpatient unit (13-17 years old), 1 month child neurology, 3 months mixed (county clinic, autism clinic, etc), longitudinal clinic year-long for both years.
  • Call: one week at a time every 6 weeks (every weeknight 5pm-8am + Friday 5pm to Mon 8am) but home call, coming in only if necessary, covers C-L service and IOP/inpatient unit, no ED as child crisis covers for this.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (Early psychosis, autism clinic, eating disorders, OCD/Tics, ADHD, general psych clinic supervising adult residents) + electives (community/county clinics, school-based, juvenile hall)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~72k, PGY5 ~74k (same as UCLA); $13k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $275/mo meal stipend
• 6 fellows/year

 

[drechie]

Here is info about the California fellowship programs that were asked about:

UCLA:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months inpatient CAP (25 beds over 3 units: eating disorder, adolescent, child), 4 months C/L which also covers the ED, 4 months partial hospitalization program (age 6-12, 3 primary cases, 3 "med back-ups"), one longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: 2-3 times per month, 5-9pm, covers the ED, direct admissions to inpt unit, C-L coverage. No overnight or weekend call EVER.
• CAP2 rotations: Core Clinics (anxiety, mood, trauma, forensic, school, psychopharm, neurodevelopmental, county) + Electives (lots!), two longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$72k, PGY5 ~74k; $12k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks of vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $3k annual meal card, $1k educational fund, full reimbursement for conferences, professional memberships, trainings
• 7 fellows/year, including one research track resident

Stanford:

• CAP1 rotations: 3 months C-L which covers the ED, 3 months eating disorders inpatient unit, 3 months IOP, 6 weeks inpatient (13-17 years old), 6 weeks scholarly project, 3 longitudinal psychotherapy cases (one CBT, one young child, one family therapy)
  • Call: q9 weekday call overnight (4:30pm-9am) plus 5-6 weekends (Fri 5pm to Mon 8am), home call but come in if necessary, if you get called in after 10pm then you have the next day off. Covers the C-L service which includes the ED, eating disorders unit, outpatient calls.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (anxiety, mood, early psychosis, autism and neurodevelopmental disabilities, eating disorders, med psych/pain, general psych, children's health council) + electives (lots!)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$81k, PGY5 $87k; $7200 additional housing stipend per year, 3 weeks vacation, $3k moving allowance x1, $2k educational allowance per year, $1k cell phone allowance per year, 5 days new parent leave, $500 per conference and $1000 if presenting
• 9 fellows/year, including one community track resident

UCSF:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months C-L (if in SF no ED since there is a separate child crisis service, if in Oakland covers the ED too), 4 months IOP or inpatient unit (13-17 years old), 1 month child neurology, 3 months mixed (county clinic, autism clinic, etc), longitudinal clinic year-long for both years.
  • Call: one week at a time every 6 weeks (every weeknight 5pm-8am + Friday 5pm to Mon 8am) but home call, coming in only if necessary, covers C-L service and IOP/inpatient unit, no ED as child crisis covers for this.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (Early psychosis, autism clinic, eating disorders, OCD/Tics, ADHD, general psych clinic supervising adult residents) + electives (community/county clinics, school-based, juvenile hall)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~72k, PGY5 ~74k (same as UCLA); $13k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $275/mo meal stipend
• 6 fellows/year

Does UCSF C+A fellowship accept applicants who want to fast track into the program?

 

[kirkirkir]

Choose a program that doesn't have call...

Would someone happen to have a list perhaps?

 

[clozareal]

Does UCSF C+A fellowship accept applicants who want to fast track into the program?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that all CAP fellowships allow applications from those who are fast tracking.

 

[kaysisiel]

Does UCSF C+A fellowship accept applicants who want to fast track into the program?

Yes it does-- I applied last cycle as a fast track applicant and interviewed.

 

[box8psych]

Here is info about the California fellowship programs that were asked about:

UCLA:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months inpatient CAP (25 beds over 3 units: eating disorder, adolescent, child), 4 months C/L which also covers the ED, 4 months partial hospitalization program (age 6-12, 3 primary cases, 3 "med back-ups"), one longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: 2-3 times per month, 5-9pm, covers the ED, direct admissions to inpt unit, C-L coverage. No overnight or weekend call EVER.
• CAP2 rotations: Core Clinics (anxiety, mood, trauma, forensic, school, psychopharm, neurodevelopmental, county) + Electives (lots!), two longitudinal psychotherapy case + weekly supervision
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$72k, PGY5 ~74k; $12k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks of vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $3k annual meal card, $1k educational fund, full reimbursement for conferences, professional memberships, trainings
• 7 fellows/year, including one research track resident

Stanford:

• CAP1 rotations: 3 months C-L which covers the ED, 3 months eating disorders inpatient unit, 3 months IOP, 6 weeks inpatient (13-17 years old), 6 weeks scholarly project, 3 longitudinal psychotherapy cases (one CBT, one young child, one family therapy)
  • Call: q9 weekday call overnight (4:30pm-9am) plus 5-6 weekends (Fri 5pm to Mon 8am), home call but come in if necessary, if you get called in after 10pm then you have the next day off. Covers the C-L service which includes the ED, eating disorders unit, outpatient calls.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (anxiety, mood, early psychosis, autism and neurodevelopmental disabilities, eating disorders, med psych/pain, general psych, children's health council) + electives (lots!)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~$81k, PGY5 $87k; $7200 additional housing stipend per year, 3 weeks vacation, $3k moving allowance x1, $2k educational allowance per year, $1k cell phone allowance per year, 5 days new parent leave, $500 per conference and $1000 if presenting
• 9 fellows/year, including one community track resident

UCSF:

• CAP1 rotations: 4 months C-L (if in SF no ED since there is a separate child crisis service, if in Oakland covers the ED too), 4 months IOP or inpatient unit (13-17 years old), 1 month child neurology, 3 months mixed (county clinic, autism clinic, etc), longitudinal clinic year-long for both years.
  • Call: one week at a time every 6 weeks (every weeknight 5pm-8am + Friday 5pm to Mon 8am) but home call, coming in only if necessary, covers C-L service and IOP/inpatient unit, no ED as child crisis covers for this.
• CAP2 rotations: Core clinics (Early psychosis, autism clinic, eating disorders, OCD/Tics, ADHD, general psych clinic supervising adult residents) + electives (community/county clinics, school-based, juvenile hall)
  • Call: None
• Benefits: PGY4 ~72k, PGY5 ~74k (same as UCLA); $13k additional housing stipend per year, 4 weeks vacation, 4 weeks new parent leave, $275/mo meal stipend
• 6 fellows/year

Thank you for all the helpful information. Would you happen to have any subjective information on these or any other California Programs (UCLA Harbor, USC, UCSD)? I'd be interested to hear about the cultures, quality of life, quality of training, etc if possible. Thank you!

 

[box8psych]

Thank you for all the helpful information. Would you happen to have any subjective information on these or any other California Programs (UCLA Harbor, USC, UCSD)? I'd be interested to hear about the cultures, quality of life, quality of training, etc if possible. Thank you!

Bumping this now that we're further along in the interview cycle... Would be especially interested in hearing thoughts/insight on UCSD and USC from current/former fellows!

 

[letsdothis2020]

Bumping this now that we're further along in the interview cycle... Would be especially interested in hearing thoughts/insight on UCSD and USC from current/former fellows!

Would love to hear from current fellows/any other insiders about their thoughts on how the three Boston programs compare to one another (MGH/Mclean, CHA, and Boston Children's) vs the NYC programs (NYP and NYU). Thank you!

 

[kirkirkir]

Bump 2/2 ROL anxiety

 

[box8psych]

Re: NYP vs NYU. These are just my personal thoughts, so take it with a grain of salt etc, etc and I honestly don't think you can go wrong either way.

Both are large, world-renowned academic institutions with comparable quality of training and faculty and breadth of clinical opportunities. Fellows at both seemed happy and emphasized that the focus is on training and not being a workhorse for the hospital (however on paper NYP > NYU in this regard). Here are some of my specific points/factors for each program:

NYP:
- Call and salary/benefits are definitely better (important when living in NYC)
- Lots of early/first break psychosis opportunities (my particular interest)
- Keeping workload manageable for fellows was repeatedly stressed by multiple faculty and fellows and seems to be more the case on paper as well
- Loved the APD, did not interview with the PD

NYU:
- Only dedicated child CPEP in NYC
- Lots of opportunity to teach (you become a "clinical instructor" as a fellow)
- Emphasis on scholarly time (one month protected CAP-1)
- Loved the PD

Now what do yall think about those California/West Coast-ish programs?! (USC, UCSD, UC Davis, UCol, OHSU)

 

[Psychresy]

I'm like 60/40 I want to do CAP. I'm scared to apply if I can't fully commit to it however. Any thoughts on how these programs would approach a resident who wanted to leave after cap 1?

 

[cheesus86]

I'm like 60/40 I want to do CAP. I'm scared to apply if I can't fully commit to it however. Any thoughts on how these programs would approach a resident who wanted to leave after cap 1?

This came up during one of my interviews. A PD said there was nothing more heartbreaking (probably as a PD) than seeing someone quit after the first year. He regretted it because that position could have gone to someone who actually was committed to CAP. He seemed pretty disappointed but again, that was just one PD. I don’t know how others would react.

 

[UTsksk]

I'm like 60/40 I want to do CAP. I'm scared to apply if I can't fully commit to it however. Any thoughts on how these programs would approach a resident who wanted to leave after cap 1?

They would not like it very much at all, but it’s not illegal. The program just wouldn’t like you very much. My PD feels the same way about people who finish child and don’t get board certified. Like it’s a waste.