Current Integrated CT Programs

[blazer12345656]

This is the most current list I have heard for 6 year integrated and 4+3 CT programs that will have spots for the 2010 match year.

Integrated 6 year:
Stanford
MUSC
Penn
Univ. of MD
Univ. of TX-San Antonio

4+3:
Brigham
Duke
Wash U
Mayo
NYU
Univ. of MD
Univ. Rochester
UVA
Univ. of Washington
MGH

Anyone hear about any others?

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[JackADeli]

This is the most current list I have heard for 6 year integrated ...

Stanford
MUSC
Penn
Univ. of MD
Univ. of TX-San Antonio...

I just used AMA frieda, selected the integrated-thoracic then chose all states.... came up with 4 programs. But, I spoke with a resident and they said UNC Chapel Hill has been approved/accredited for a six year integrated. You may want to contact them to ask when they are taking applications???

 

[MElSorady]

This is the most current list I have heard for 6 year integrated and 4+3 CT programs that will have spots for the 2010 match year.

Integrated 6 year:
Stanford
MUSC
Penn
Univ. of MD
Univ. of TX-San Antonio

4+3:
Brigham
Duke
Wash U
Mayo
NYU
Univ. of MD
Univ. Rochester
UVA
Univ. of Washington
MGH

Anyone hear about any others?

Hi Docs:

I am just wondering what you mean by 4+3: Dose that mean 4 years GS then 3 years CT surgery. and are you sure please about the ''4+3' list you mentioned?

 

[blazer12345656]

The breakdown for the 4+3 programs are as follows:
PGY1 - General Surgery
PGY2 - General Surgery
PGY3 - General Surgery
PGY4 - 6 months General Surgery and 6 months Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY5 - 6 months General Surgery and 6 months Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY6 - Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY7 - Cardiothoracic Surgery

The list above for both 4+3 programs and 6-year integrated programs have all been confirmed.

 

[MElSorady]

The breakdown for the 4+3 programs are as follows:
PGY1 - General Surgery
PGY2 - General Surgery
PGY3 - General Surgery
PGY4 - 6 months General Surgery and 6 months Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY5 - 6 months General Surgery and 6 months Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY6 - Cardiothoracic Surgery
PGY7 - Cardiothoracic Surgery

The list above for both 4+3 programs and 6-year integrated programs have all been confirmed.

Thanks blazer for your reply. I just have one more question please;I have searched FRIDA website and it came up with 4 programs only of the ''6 years'' integrated CT programs that are actually participating in ERAS. Could you let me know please what source you used to confirm such information especially about ''4+3'' programs. And are they participating in ERAS as well?

Thank you!
MElsorady

 

[blazer12345656]

They were just recently approved. They will probably join ERAS in August or you may have to send in your application outside of ERAS. Just give them a call in early August.

 

[SocialistMD]

Thanks blazer for your reply. I just have one more question please;I have searched FRIDA website and it came up with 4 programs only of the ''6 years'' integrated CT programs that are actually participating in ERAS. Could you let me know please what source you used to confirm such information especially about ''4+3'' programs. And are they participating in ERAS as well?

I don't think you can match directly into Wash U's integrated program. As it exists now, the program pulls from the existing general surgery residents who are interested in CT surgery. If interested in this program, you'll need to match to the general surgery program and, essentially, be better than anyone else in your intern class who might also be interested in the early specialization program.

 

[TxSurg]

Has anyone heard of a cardiac/lung transplant fellowship that lasts 1yr & one would do just PRIOR to starting CT surgery fellowship? I've heard Wash U has such a program via rumors & was curious if it was truly just a rumor...

 

[madtowngirl]

UVA's program is also filled by pulling current residents, at least for now. Not sure if that will be changing in the near future.

 

[JackADeli]

Has anyone heard of a cardiac/lung transplant fellowship that lasts 1yr & one would do just PRIOR to starting CT surgery fellowship? I've heard Wash U has such a program via rumors & was curious if it was truly just a rumor...

I "heard" Henry Ford in Detroit does something like that.....

To be honest.... I actually just happened to look someone up on a website and their CV claimed attendance at a program like that in Henry Ford....

 

[SocialistMD]

Has anyone heard of a cardiac/lung transplant fellowship that lasts 1yr & one would do just PRIOR to starting CT surgery fellowship? I've heard Wash U has such a program via rumors & was curious if it was truly just a rumor...

Wash U has a transplant fellow, but the non-transplant CT fellows get more than enough transplant experience.

 

[ESU_MD]

heart/lung transplant fellowships are EXTREMELY easy to come by for just about anyone with a pulse. they are always looking for "fellows", actually they are just looking for bodies- to hold hook, to do washouts, to babysit the VAD patients all night, to go do procurements and fly on dangerous rickety copters, etc.. often the "fellows" are foreign docs who havent been through a US residency and transplant fellow is the only job they can get. its actually not a bad job, better than gen surg prelim resident. also not a bad way to burn a year if your program forces you into research year.

Unless you have finished CV residency and have an interest in doing transplant for a living, you wont really benefit from doing this fellowship.

 

[Nematode]

what kind of step 1 are we talking about for the 6yr integrated Ct programs?

 

[TxSurg]

Thanks ESU_MD & SocialistMD. That's exactly what I was wondering. I'm already in my research year in boston and my program "requires" research year(s). I'm not a huge lab guy, and was wondering if additional years wouldn't be better spent doing a CT "transplant" year instead of basic science lab. Thought it might keep the doors open at the Big Name programs (i.e., Dukes, WashU, etc.). Any more thoughts?

 

[TheWhiteMamba]

I'm also wondering how competitive the six year integrated programs are??? What step one score do you need? AOA? Research?

 

[MElSorady]

That's regarding the program at Mayo. They pull out from GS resident from 2nd year and put you in consideration ''if you fit'' to continue through out 4+3 program. In addition, they match for Thoracic Surgery only, not cardiac, through this 4+3 program. That's what I heard from one of their residents. Any questions welcomed.

MElsorady

 

[blazer12345656]

That's regarding the program at Mayo. They pull out from GS resident from 2nd year and put you in consideration ''if you fit'' to continue through out 4+3 program. In addition, they match for Thoracic Surgery only, not cardiac, through this 4+3 program. That's what I heard from one of their residents. Any questions welcomed.

MElsorady

First, there is no such thing as just Thoracic surgery. Or rather there is nothing but Thoracic Surgery. That is the only certification that exist and it encompasses both cardiac and thoracic. That being said there now is a Cardiac vs Thoracic "track," but there is no reason someone in the 4+3 programs would not have ample numbers for both unless they chose to avoid one or the other.

Second, all 4+3 programs must be applied to from that University's General Surgery program. Unless it has recently changed, that is a Thoracic Surgery RRC requirement.

In regards to how competitive the 6-year programs are:
1. I have spoken to most of the current residents and none those have a Step 1 score below 240.
2. Several were AOA
3. Most had several publications in cardiac surgery
However, I have also spoken with most of the program directors and what they have said was the number one requirement for them to accept someone is "a clear and LONGSTANDING interest in cardiac surgery".

 

[TheWhiteMamba]

Thanks for the reply regarding the competitiveness of 6 year programs Blazer. Given that people match into these programs straight from medical school what is considered a "longstanding" interest? Does this mean the entire length of medical school? Or does it need to be demonstrated before medical school? I ask because I just graduated with a neurobiology degree and had one second author publication in a good journal for neuro research. However, I am looking to change my focus to cardiac after shadowing an incredible CT surgeon who really turned me on to the field. I'm taking a year off before medical school so what can I do in this time to increase my chances at a 6 year CT program? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

 

[dienekes88]

First, there is no such thing as just Thoracic surgery. Or rather there is nothing but Thoracic Surgery. That is the only certification that exist and it encompasses both cardiac and thoracic. That being said there now is a Cardiac vs Thoracic "track," but there is no reason someone in the 4+3 programs would not have ample numbers for both unless they chose to avoid one or the other.

Second, all 4+3 programs must be applied to from that University's General Surgery program. Unless it has recently changed, that is a Thoracic Surgery RRC requirement.

In regards to how competitive the 6-year programs are:
1. I have spoken to most of the current residents and none those have a Step 1 score below 240.
2. Several were AOA
3. Most had several publications in cardiac surgery
However, I have also spoken with most of the program directors and what they have said was the number one requirement for them to accept someone is "a clear and LONGSTANDING interest in cardiac surgery".

Won't the differences in the numbers and types of required index cases for General Thoracic track necessitate a significant decrease in the exposure to cardiac cases?

http://www.abts.org/sections/Certification/Operative_Requiremen/index.html

Thanks for the reply regarding the competitiveness of 6 year programs Blazer. Given that people match into these programs straight from medical school what is considered a "longstanding" interest? Does this mean the entire length of medical school? Or does it need to be demonstrated before medical school? I ask because I just graduated with a neurobiology degree and had one second author publication in a good journal for neuro research. However, I am looking to change my focus to cardiac after shadowing an incredible CT surgeon who really turned me on to the field. I'm taking a year off before medical school so what can I do in this time to increase my chances at a 6 year CT program? Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

Better start studying for Step 1 and cranking out the papers!

I would hope that they don't expect anyone to demonstrate interest BEFORE medical school. Most people go into medical school thinking about one field and end up doing another. This probably arises from the lack of understanding and exposure to the full range of medicine and surgery. My sense, as a medical student, is that it's difficult to wrap your head around any of the fields before you're elbow deep in it, as it were, and the exposure in medical school can be relatively light in some fields... this is probably one of the arguments against early specialization.

Even the Chief of CT at the institution I attend was undecided about Surgery vs. Internal Medicine during his 4th year of medical school! On top of that, the Surgeon-in-Chief at the Children's Hospital told us that he had already matched in Psychiatry before a fateful conversation right before he started his internship sent him off to a gen surg residency and then a pediatric surgery fellowship.

Having said that, a couple of the CT fellows and the congenital heart surgeon who is supervising my research have all said that they knew they wanted to be cardiac surgeons during their first year of medical school.

 

[blazer12345656]

Won't the differences in the numbers and types of required index cases for General Thoracic track necessitate a significant decrease in the exposure to cardiac cases?

http://www.abts.org/sections/Certification/Operative_Requiremen/index.html



Better start studying for Step 1 and cranking out the papers!

I would hope that they don't expect anyone to demonstrate interest BEFORE medical school. Most people go into medical school thinking about one field and end up doing another. This probably arises from the lack of understanding and exposure to the full range of medicine and surgery. My sense, as a medical student, is that it's difficult to wrap your head around any of the fields before you're elbow deep in it, as it were, and the exposure in medical school can be relatively light in some fields... this is probably one of the arguments against early specialization.

Even the Chief of CT at the institution I attend was undecided about Surgery vs. Internal Medicine during his 4th year of medical school! On top of that, the Surgeon-in-Chief at the Children's Hospital told us that he had already matched in Psychiatry before a fateful conversation right before he started his internship sent him off to a gen surg residency and then a pediatric surgery fellowship.

Having said that, a couple of the CT fellows and the congenital heart surgeon who is supervising my research have all said that they knew they wanted to be cardiac surgeons during their first year of medical school.

All of the major program offering the 4+3 programs do lots of cases. There would not be many operative days where you would not do atleast one case. Let's for arguments sake say there are 250 operative days a year and x that by 3 years. Sure, some cases are more common than others, but it is not difficult to be double tracked if you want it. Most people at the big programs go into academics so only do one or the other and thus focus their attention on one or the other.

I think deciding what you want to do as early as possible is the best road to take. You can always change your mind, but nothing is less inspiring then when a medical student in his or her 3rd year (even early in the year) says "I don't know yet." Also the point you made about early specialization is not really applicable to Cardiac Surgery, as it is no longer required by the General Surgery RRC and many programs have cut it out of the 5 years. So you may not even get that exposure you were talking about.

 

[raosen]

hi all,

am an MS4 also interested in the integrated and 4+3 programs. have a practical question. how can i find the 4+3 programs? ama freida breaks out the thoracic-integrated programs, but the 4+3 programs, i presume, are just part of the mishmosh of general surgery. i am a little nervous submitting my eras on this presumption alone. i can probably call each of the programs listed on this thread to confirm, but how do i figure out what else might or might not be out there? call each of the general surgery programs in the entire country???

thanks,
raosen

 

[europeman]

do you still get board certified in general surgery, or no?

 

[JackADeli]

do you still get board certified in general surgery, or no?

I suspect some of the earlier respondents, more intimately knowledgeable on the CT topic can add more. But, I don't believe you do. You need a certain number of cases as PGY5 clinical chief year in gen surgery for eligibility to be ABS certified. Cardiac/Thoracic cases/rotations do not fall under core rotations for GenSurge chief year.

Check ACGME site, it may say something on that front. I read something a few years ago about how the ABS did not want ABS certification under this model (4 + 3). Thus, around same time, possibly in response, ABTS removed the requirement for ABS certification.

 

[Anka]

do you still get board certified in general surgery, or no?

4+3 -- yes, you are board eligible for general surgery
0+6 -- no, you are not board eligible for general surgery

Anka

 

[JackADeli]

4+3 -- yes, you are board eligible for general surgery...

...ensure that each resident has at least 750 major cases across the five years of training. This must include a minimum of 150 major cases in the resident's chief year
....42 months of these 54 months must be spent on clinical assignments in the essential content areas of surgery. The essential content areas are: the abdomen and its contents; the alimentary tract; skin, soft tissues, and breast; endocrine surgery; head and neck surgery; pediatric surgery; surgical critical care; surgical oncology; trauma and non-operative trauma (burn experience that includes patient management may be counted toward non-operative trauma); and the vascular system
...To take advantage of a unique educational opportunity in a program, up to 6 months of the chief year may be served in the next to the last year (4th). This experience must not occur any earlier than the 4th clinical year. Any special Program of this type must be approved in advance by the Review Committee. Operative cases counted as the chief cases must be performed during the 12 months designated as the chief year;
...Clinical assignments during the chief year must be in the essential content areas of general surgery. No more than four months of the chief year may be devoted exclusively to any one essential content area;
...Noncardiac thoracic surgery and transplantation rotations may be considered an acceptable chief resident assignment as long as the chief resident performs an appropriate number of complex cases with documented participation in pre and post-operative care (program director may use the flexibility outlined in IV.A.5.a.3.d.ii.); ......

I guess it could work.... if you use part of your PGY4 year as chief year.

 

[MElSorady]

Okay, that's regarding Mayo Clinic. I have sent an email recently to CV surgery at Mayo and she said there is a discussion about 4+3 integrated program, but till now there is nothing approved, may be in the future. So any MS 4th year and welling to apply, please consider to call or send emails before you make your list.

Melsorady

 

[blazer12345656]

I am not sure who you spoke to, but the Mayo already has a 4+3 approved and has residents in it.

 

[MElSorady]

blazer,

I spoke to Carla, the CV vascular surgery education coordination. I can forward the email she sent me if you like.

melsorady

 

[blazer12345656]

I did not think you were lying so forwarding the email will not be necessary. However, the fact remains that they are already approved for the 4+3 program.

 

[MElSorady]

Blazer,

I wanna just to apologize as I have called Carla today and she told me that there is an approved 3+4 track, which is joint program. I am confused if that is the integrated CT surgery, but it ends up by being a joint program. However, the integrated 6 years CT surgery residnecy is not yet approved. I am sorry for misunderstanding.

Thank you again.
melsorady

 

[copacetic]

where do i find a current list of 4+3 or other similar accelerated track programs. Ive been to the acgme and frieda websites and was able to find the 17 integrated 6 year programs that exist, but im not sure where to find a list of the other pathways.

 

[madevarie]

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