Current Medical Students

[deleted600623]

---

Members do not see this ad.

When you decided to apply to medical school, how did you process the financial side of things such as amount of debt that you would accumulate? It is very admirable to hear someone say they want to go into medicine because they want to serve and the financial costs are not a serious issue, but frankly it is not logical. There has to be some serious consideration for the financial side especially because the costs are so high. What factored into your decision to still pursue a career as a physician even with these costs?

Thanks for the help!

 

[trs88]

I guess I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, I think you're asking about how people mentally cope with the large debt? For me, it's just a number. Yah, it's a big 6 digit number but so are mortgages and far more people have those than those with medical school debt and they are able to cope with it. The fact that one day I will be able to pay it off - is all I need to cope with the debt.

 

[deleted407021]

I'll be a "current" student in a few months, so I guess I can reply.

It's what I want to do, and I've never met nor heard of a doctor who struggled to make ends meet. I realize that I'm going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, but I'm also aware of the litany tools that are available to help me understand and manage that debt. When I get to the point in my career where I have to start dealing with it, I'll have financial training from my schooling to work with, as well as other resources through employers, debt consolidation plans, etc.

 

[deleted600623]

I'll be a "current" student in a few months, so I guess I can reply.

It's what I want to do, and I've never met nor heard of a doctor who struggled to make ends meet. I realize that I'm going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, but I'm also aware of the litany tools that are available to help me understand and manage that debt. When I get to the point in my career where I have to start dealing with it, I'll have financial training from my schooling to work with, as well as other resources through employers, debt consolidation plans, etc.

Do you think meeting with financial aid at your school would be sufficient to understand the costs or would meeting with an actual financial advisor be more effective?

 

[deleted407021]

Do you think meeting with financial aid at your school would be sufficient to understand the costs or would meeting with an actual financial advisor be more effective?

I plan on doing both, on down the road. I want to have a solid plan with contingency plans in place, as well.

 

[deleted600623]

I guess I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, I think you're asking about how people mentally cope with the large debt? For me, it's just a number. Yah, it's a big 6 digit number but so are mortgages and far more people have those than those with medical school debt and they are able to cope with it. The fact that one day I will be able to pay it off - is all I need to cope with the debt.

You bring up a good point about mortgages. I guess having ideas on how to cut down on loan debt is also what I'm asking. Do you receive guidance from financial aid for this?

 

[Mansamusa]

You bring up a good point about mortgages. I guess having ideas on how to cut down on loan debt is also what I'm asking. Do you receive guidance from financial aid for this?

Meh, a better comparison would be paying 2 mortgages and then still needing to pay for your own housing.

I do not recommend speaking with a pre-med advisor or financial aid advisor unless you have a specific question on how financial aid works. Advisors very much put a spin on things and under-appreciating the level of debt because "you'll be a doctor, of course you can pay it off."

I would speak with physicians, but you will hear a lot of "oh hell no, don't it"s. Physicians will give you a better idea of what is manageable

 

[trs88]

You bring up a good point about mortgages. I guess having ideas on how to cut down on loan debt is also what I'm asking. Do you receive guidance from financial aid for this?

You'll like reading the http://whitecoatinvestor.com/, it's a great resource for managing finances. I don't have any tips about reducing loan debt other than if you can live without it, don't buy it. My car is already paid off, I don't take vacations, I live alone, I use coupons, I use the school's library of ebooks instead of buying the physical copy.

 

[moisne]

Sorry I don't understand your question. Either it's super simple or I'm just misunderstanding it.

Strictly financially speaking, physicians have one of the highest paychecks and job security (minus the holly**** shinnagins and government positions and the rare CEOs stuff). Yeah you take out say 200k (I think a reasonable range if you have no significant money saved/support is between 150-250k); That's about 1 year salary for the average doctor. Yeah I know there's interest and what not - but if you live sparingly - you should be able to pay most of that off within 5 years of your 6 figure salary. Some people decide to pay it off slower (over 30 years) based on their individual needs (buy a house, started a family, new car, family to take care of, quality of life).

My annual expense right now (not including tuition): 600 rent + 300 food + 100$ free spending money (clothes, household stuff, etc) = 1k/month = 12k/year
* Don't get a car = no car maintance/insurance, free bus pass, medicaid; when you get 6 figures, say you double your expenses (got a car, etc), are you saying it's hard to pay off loans even if you doubled your expenses to 24 k? (assuming, you are single, living sparingly)

Income 200k
Taxed income = 120+k (I'm not even including tax deduction from loans);
you may need a car/insurance + living expenses = 15-20 k per year
Left over money: 100 k

= pay it off within 5 years? totally do-able. - again assuming this is no complication (family, weddings, having no life, etc).

I didn't really consider the finances too much when I applied and attend med school. The thing that made me pause to think if I want to do this was the OPPORTUNITY cost.

The years spent, the time I could've done other things (hung with friends, started a family, etc).

 

[deleted600623]

@moisne Thank you for the insight. That really helped as far as understanding what the typical numbers could look like.

 

[moisne]

^ was that sarcasm? lol

 

[Gorne]

You'll like reading the http://whitecoatinvestor.com/, it's a great resource for managing finances. I don't have any tips about reducing loan debt other than if you can live without it, don't buy it. My car is already paid off, I don't take vacations, I live alone, I use coupons, I use the school's library of ebooks instead of buying the physical copy.

Awesome life bruh.

 

[Mansamusa]

@moisne Thank you for the insight. That really helped as far as understanding what the typical numbers could look like.

There are no loan deductions for student loans at a physician's salary. 15-20K is likely a lowball estimate of living expenses for someone over 30 (I say likely because it is possible, but most older people have things in their life that would take more money than that). And there are other things like malpractice insurance and retirement savings (don't forget about those) that should also be considered. Then health insurance would be a few thousand dollars.

That being said, I just looked up Georgia's tuition. If you go to your state school and have no undergrad debt, you could probably get away with under $250K, which is manageable (with current salaries)

 

[caffeinemia]

When you decided to apply to medical school, how did you process the financial side of things such as amount of debt that you would accumulate? It is very admirable to hear someone say they want to go into medicine because they want to serve and the financial costs are not a serious issue, but frankly it is not logical. There has to be some serious consideration for the financial side especially because the costs are so high. What factored into your decision to still pursue a career as a physician even with these costs?

Thanks for the help!

Income based repayment is pretty manageable... <15% of your salary. So what if it takes 25 years to pay off...Would you take 15% less income (but make 150-300% more than the median American family) to do what you love?

 

[deleted600623]

Income based repayment is pretty manageable... <15% of your salary. So what if it takes 25 years to pay off...Would you take 15% less income (but make 150-300% more than the median American family) to do what you love?

Where are you getting the 15%? Just curious.

 

[deleted600623]

^ was that sarcasm? lol

No not at all!

 

[caffeinemia]

Where are you getting the 15%? Just curious.

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/income-driven-repayment.pdf

 

[Takamori]

I've never met nor heard of a doctor who struggled to make ends meet.

You should travel the world 😉. There's not too many places where physicians as appreciated as in the US or, at least, as they should be.

 

[deleted600623]

https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/sites/default/files/income-driven-repayment.pdf

Wow that's a great website! Thank you so much. That eased a lot of worry for repayment of the loan debt.

 

[deleted600623]

You should travel the world 😉. There's not too many places where physicians as appreciated as in the US or, at least, as they should be.

No doubt. There is a reason international medical students come to the US for residencies and to practice.

 

[deleted407021]

You should travel the world 😉. There's not too many places where physicians as appreciated as in the US or, at least, as they should be.

My post was specific to the US. At least that's how I intended it to come off.

Some countries where doctors make the equivalent of just over 100k USD also have no educational costs. The caveat is that they also have higher taxes.

 

[Takamori]

My post was specific to the US. At least that's how I intended it to come off.

Some countries where doctors make the equivalent of just over 100k USD also have no educational costs. The caveat is that they also have higher taxes.

I know. Just decided to expand a bit to have a sense of appreciation for what's frequently perceived as granted.

 

[familyaerospace]

When you decided to apply to medical school, how did you process the financial side of things such as amount of debt that you would accumulate? It is very admirable to hear someone say they want to go into medicine because they want to serve and the financial costs are not a serious issue, but frankly it is not logical. There has to be some serious consideration for the financial side especially because the costs are so high. What factored into your decision to still pursue a career as a physician even with these costs?

Thanks for the help!

My student loans are currently more than the mortgage on my house. I get panic attacks when I think about it. I have been told by attendings that I need to stop thinking about it and that I will eventually become numb to it.

 

[deleted600623]

My student loans are currently more than the mortgage on my house. I get panic attacks when I think about it. I have been told by attendings that I need to stop thinking about it and that I will eventually become numb to it.

Numb in a positive or negative way?

 

[familyaerospace]

Numb in a positive or negative way?

Just numb... as it that it will not bother me anymore.

 

[KinesiologyNerd]

Sorry I don't understand your question. Either it's super simple or I'm just misunderstanding it.

Strictly financially speaking, physicians have one of the highest paychecks and job security (minus the holly**** shinnagins and government positions and the rare CEOs stuff). Yeah you take out say 200k (I think a reasonable range if you have no significant money saved/support is between 150-250k); That's about 1 year salary for the average doctor. Yeah I know there's interest and what not - but if you live sparingly - you should be able to pay most of that off within 5 years of your 6 figure salary. Some people decide to pay it off slower (over 30 years) based on their individual needs (buy a house, started a family, new car, family to take care of, quality of life).

My annual expense right now (not including tuition): 600 rent + 300 food + 100$ free spending money (clothes, household stuff, etc) = 1k/month = 12k/year
* Don't get a car = no car maintance/insurance, free bus pass, medicaid; when you get 6 figures, say you double your expenses (got a car, etc), are you saying it's hard to pay off loans even if you doubled your expenses to 24 k? (assuming, you are single, living sparingly)

Income 200k
Taxed income = 120+k (I'm not even including tax deduction from loans);
you may need a car/insurance + living expenses = 15-20 k per year
Left over money: 100 k

= pay it off within 5 years? totally do-able. - again assuming this is no complication (family, weddings, having no life, etc).

I didn't really consider the finances too much when I applied and attend med school. The thing that made me pause to think if I want to do this was the OPPORTUNITY cost.

The years spent, the time I could've done other things (hung with friends, started a family, etc).

I mean... good for you... but that is such an astoundingly unrealistic life for 95+% of medical students. Various insurances? Utilities? Cell phone? Non-tuition school stuff? Life? It gets expensive bruh.

OP: It's simple. Physicians make a butt load of money and will basically allows have a job.

 

[lmn]

Sorry I don't understand your question. Either it's super simple or I'm just misunderstanding it.

Strictly financially speaking, physicians have one of the highest paychecks and job security (minus the holly**** shinnagins and government positions and the rare CEOs stuff). Yeah you take out say 200k (I think a reasonable range if you have no significant money saved/support is between 150-250k); That's about 1 year salary for the average doctor. Yeah I know there's interest and what not - but if you live sparingly - you should be able to pay most of that off within 5 years of your 6 figure salary. Some people decide to pay it off slower (over 30 years) based on their individual needs (buy a house, started a family, new car, family to take care of, quality of life).

My annual expense right now (not including tuition): 600 rent + 300 food + 100$ free spending money (clothes, household stuff, etc) = 1k/month = 12k/year
* Don't get a car = no car maintance/insurance, free bus pass, medicaid; when you get 6 figures, say you double your expenses (got a car, etc), are you saying it's hard to pay off loans even if you doubled your expenses to 24 k? (assuming, you are single, living sparingly)

Income 200k
Taxed income = 120+k (I'm not even including tax deduction from loans);
you may need a car/insurance + living expenses = 15-20 k per year
Left over money: 100 k

= pay it off within 5 years? totally do-able. - again assuming this is no complication (family, weddings, having no life, etc).

I didn't really consider the finances too much when I applied and attend med school. The thing that made me pause to think if I want to do this was the OPPORTUNITY cost.

The years spent, the time I could've done other things (hung with friends, started a family, etc).

ya that's a bit oversimplified

 

[akuko2]

@georgia_boy1 do you know about HPSP, and if so would you ever consider it an option?

 

[golfman7]

The debt is scary but very few degrees pay off anymore and an MD/ DO will always be in demand. My advice to future pre meds would be to go to a state school and go to the cheapest school that accepts you and take advantage of scholarships or family help if available. It's too bad I'm not smart enough to get scholarships though 🙁.

 

[JustAPhD]

If it makes you feel better, OP, there are people out there with 100K education debt with art degrees.

 

[Lawpy]

If it makes you feel better, OP, there are people out there with 100K education debt with art degrees.

 

[deleted600623]

@georgia_boy1 do you know about HPSP, and if so would you ever consider it an option?

In a different thread, I mentioned the scholarship and an attending who went through that process said he lost more money than the actual scholarship because of below market reimbursement in the military.

 

[caffeinemia]

So, this is the way I see it...


I took out an excessive amount of money for medical school... $250k+. At full repayment (10 year term) it comes out to be about 2-3k/month.

Sounds like an astounding amount... but then considering that as a surgeon I will take home anywhere from 200k (lowball) to 500k (high ball). Say that I can reasonable expect 240k (just to make the math easy).

That's 20k a month. Say the gubment takes half. That leaves 10k/month. Minus out 3k for the insane student loan payments. Are you telling me you can't live your life comfortably for $7,000/month? That's the way I see it.

 

[lmn]

So, this is the way I see it...


I took out an excessive amount of money for medical school... $250k+. At full repayment (10 year term) it comes out to be about 2-3k/month.

Sounds like an astounding amount... but then considering that as a surgeon I will take home anywhere from 200k (lowball) to 500k (high ball). Say that I can reasonable expect 240k (just to make the math easy).

That's 20k a month. Say the gubment takes half. That leaves 10k/month. Minus out 3k for the insane student loan payments. Are you telling me you can't live your life comfortably for $7,000/month? That's the way I see it.

You can definitely pay it off/live fairly well, but depending on where you live, rent/COL takes a nice chunk of that, which of course makes things harder in terms of things like saving up a down payment for a house and/or family planning. It of course is still doable, but any ability to minimize those debts sure help. Also many people also have their undergrad debts on top of that. Now if you are willing to live somewhere less ideal which really cuts the cost of living/housing, and may even mean a larger salary, it would be much less of an issue than say somewhere like NY, California, Boston, etc.

 

[caffeinemia]

You can definitely pay it off/live fairly well, but depending on where you live, rent/COL takes a nice chunk of that, which of course makes things harder in terms of things like saving up a down payment for a house and/or family planning. It of course is still doable, but any ability to minimize those debts sure help. Also many people also have their undergrad debts on top of that. Now if you are willing to live somewhere less ideal which really cuts the cost of living/housing, and may even mean a larger salary, it would be much less of an issue than say somewhere like NY, California, Boston, etc.

Well, I lived in NYC proper this year on a very generous residency salary -- it was tough to keep my budget in check, but I think it can be done.

Saving for a house or supporting a family would make 7k feel like a much smaller amount. Granted, it's pretty insane to think you can just up and move your family to the upper westside of Manhattan on one income and a nice chunk of debt. But if you're single then.... 😉.

 

[Mansamusa]

So, this is the way I see it...


I took out an excessive amount of money for medical school... $250k+. At full repayment (10 year term) it comes out to be about 2-3k/month.

Sounds like an astounding amount... but then considering that as a surgeon I will take home anywhere from 200k (lowball) to 500k (high ball). Say that I can reasonable expect 240k (just to make the math easy).

That's 20k a month. Say the gubment takes half. That leaves 10k/month. Minus out 3k for the insane student loan payments. Are you telling me you can't live your life comfortably for $7,000/month? That's the way I see it.

But what was your interest rate? AAMC first is giving me a 10 yr repayment of $7.5k/month for my loans if I do a 5 yr residency. I'm going to refinance my loans, but $3K is what I would for federal loans for a 25 yr repayment

 

[caffeinemia]

But what was your interest rate? AAMC first is giving me a 10 yr repayment of $7.5k/month for my loans if I do a 5 yr residency. I'm going to refinance my loans, but $3K is what I would for federal loans for a 25 yr repayment

Interest rates may vary. If you got a lot of interest subsidized loans - things may be dramatically different. Some institutions also have those kind of funds and that makes things a lot cheaper. A while back, there were also educational loans that were dirt cheap -- like <3%.

I just did a quick and dirty check on a mortgage calculator and a 250k loan @ 7.5% interest and 10 year repayment comes out to be able 2.9k/month. Sounds like what my student loans looked like, but feel free to correct me with your own calculations.

 

[deleted600623]

So, this is the way I see it...


I took out an excessive amount of money for medical school... $250k+. At full repayment (10 year term) it comes out to be about 2-3k/month.

Sounds like an astounding amount... but then considering that as a surgeon I will take home anywhere from 200k (lowball) to 500k (high ball). Say that I can reasonable expect 240k (just to make the math easy).

That's 20k a month. Say the gubment takes half. That leaves 10k/month. Minus out 3k for the insane student loan payments. Are you telling me you can't live your life comfortably for $7,000/month? That's the way I see it.

Hold up, government takes half???

 

[Mansamusa]

Interest rates may vary. If you got a lot of interest subsidized loans - things may be dramatically different. Some institutions also have those kind of funds and that makes things a lot cheaper. A while back, there were also educational loans that were dirt cheap -- like <3%.

I just did a quick and dirty check on a mortgage calculator and a 250k loan @ 7.5% interest and 10 year repayment comes out to be able 2.9k/month. Sounds like what my student loans looked like, but feel free to correct me with your own calculations.

There are no subsidized anymore. $250K gains $47K in interest over the course of med school--> capitalizes to $296K at graduation. So from then on the loan accrues 296*0.075= $22.2K per year.

If you do ibr/paye during residency, you pay $5K per year towards loans. 22.2 - 5= 17.2K of unpaid interest accrues to the loan each year.

So 5 yr residency ends up with 15*5= 75K--> Loan is 371K after residency. So even if no interest existed--> 371/10= 37.1/12--> 3.1K/month. Now add in interest and you get more than the 3.1K.

I'm looking at $350K which is how I get the 7.5k/month. My $350K become $400-410K. After residency is $510K.

The interest rate is a huge killer. A 3% interest rate capitalizes to $268K on graduation and you could probably manage the 9k/yr interest in residency. Then you get a 3k/month payment

 

[deleted407021]

Consider spousal contribution as well. I'll have 17K UG debt + $200K med debt (wild guess based on averages for my med school). But the woman who will likely be my spouse will have less UG debt and graduate with her DPT with under 20K grad debt (state school), a year before I start residency. She'll come out making 80-100K and I'll come out making ~50K. I could also conceivably moonlight as a resident for extra income. Couple all this income together, with the possibility of consolidation, and the idea of being that much in debt becomes less intimidating.

 

[PathoTurnUp1865]

Don't marry a teacher or someone who makes a comparable salary and you'll be in a better position financially. I married someone who makes/will make a comparable salary to me and that helped out so much. Problem solved.

 

[deleted600623]

Consider spousal contribution as well. I'll have 17K UG debt + $200K med debt (wild guess based on averages for my med school). But the woman who will likely be my spouse will have less UG debt and graduate with her DPT with under 20K grad debt (state school), a year before I start residency. She'll come out making 80-100K and I'll come out making ~50K. I could also conceivably moonlight as a resident for extra income. Couple all this income together, with the possibility of consolidation, and the idea of being that much in debt becomes less intimidating.

I have thought about spousal contribution too. My future spouse will likely be making 50-60K while I'm in school but hopefully she could climb into the 70-80 range by the time I'm done which I think will help. Any salary is better than 100% loans IMO.

 

[deleted600623]

There are no subsidized anymore. $250K gains $47K in interest over the course of med school--> capitalizes to $296K at graduation. So from then on the loan accrues 296*0.075= $22.2K per year.

If you do ibr/paye during residency, you pay $5K per year towards loans. 22.2 - 5= 17.2K of unpaid interest accrues to the loan each year.

So 5 yr residency ends up with 15*5= 75K--> Loan is 371K after residency. So even if no interest existed--> 371/10= 37.1/12--> 3.1K/month. Now add in interest and you get more than the 3.1K.

I'm looking at $350K which is how I get the 7.5k/month. My $350K become $400-410K. After residency is $510K.

The interest rate is a huge killer. A 3% interest rate capitalizes to $268K on graduation and you could probably manage the 9k/yr interest in residency. Then you get a 3k/month payment

Is that considering a 10 year repayment?

 

[Mansamusa]

Is that considering a 10 year repayment?

What do you mean?

Also, if you have a spouse, you have even less to worry about. Go to a state school and you will have less than $150K in debt if you use your spouse to pay living expenses

 

[deleted600623]

What do you mean?

Also, if you have a spouse, you have even less to worry about. Go to a state school and you will have less than $150K in debt if you use your spouse to pay living expenses

The monthly payment that you described above seemed high so I was asking if it was based on a 10 year repayment. Based on the IBR calculators, monthly repayment for 25 years was about half of what you described above unless I didn't use the calculator right which could be the case.

 

[deleted600623]

@Mansamusa But you are right. It then becomes a matter of what is used to pay with loans and what is used to pay with living expenses.

 

[Mansamusa]

The monthly payment that you described above seemed high so I was asking if it was based on a 10 year repayment. Based on the IBR calculators, monthly repayment for 25 years was about half of what you described above unless I didn't use the calculator right which could be the case.

Oh, yeah. The 7.5k was for the 10 yr repayment. Caffeinemia was saying that it would be 3k/month to pay it off in 10yrs and I was saying that that is not the case with the new loan reforms that occurred after caffeinemia finished school.

 

[lmn]

Well, I lived in NYC proper this year on a very generous residency salary -- it was tough to keep my budget in check, but I think it can be done.

Saving for a house or supporting a family would make 7k feel like a much smaller amount. Granted, it's pretty insane to think you can just up and move your family to the upper westside of Manhattan on one income and a nice chunk of debt. But if you're single then.... 😉.

Oh really? I have always wondered how NYC on a resident's salary would work. I know a few people at UCSF for residency and even with their housing stipend they are returning most of their paycheck to pay for housing/parking.

Haha definitely doable if you're single or have a SO that makes a decent salary, I just wanted to get OP/others considering school to think about it and make sure it was still a good choice for them.

 

[lmn]

Hold up, government takes half???

If you get a full time job after college before med school you'll see how much of your salary gets eaten up by federal and state taxes/etc. It's even worse once you're an attending and get the nice higher income bracket tax penalization...

 

[moisne]

I mean... good for you... but that is such an astoundingly unrealistic life for 95+% of medical students. Various insurances? Utilities? Cell phone? Non-tuition school stuff? Life? It gets expensive bruh.

OP: It's simple. Physicians make a butt load of money and will basically allows have a job.

It's unrealistic for those who want a life duh... I think I made my disclaimer of "having no life" already.

I already doubled my current spending from 12k to 24 k... That's pretty leanient as is. I'm sure in the 24k allowance (which again is just my current expenses... Doubled. ) it will cover a cell phone - (get those pay as you go, I personally rarely talk - mostly text; and there's wifi almost everywhere), insurance (usually your employer covers the majority of it), utilities is included in my 600$/month rent (yeah it will change a lot if you end up in Boston or something). And yes, i lived as a professional before med school so yeah it's hard but it's do-able.

By those numbers - which yes - are simplified, you can pay if off in 2 years; but I said "5 years"... Which means an extra 3 years to pay it off should you decide not to live like a homeless person (3 years is another extra 150-300k that could've gone to tuition debt).

Now if you were really gun-hoe about this all - you can always work during med school and cut your loans down to 100-120k total; then pay off some during residency --> 5 years post-residency = super easy to do; even with a life.

People can't do it because they want to buy a house, a car, get married, have kids, etc - Which is all reasonable. If they want to take 30 years to repay it at 10-15% of their salary and allow interest to add on in exchange for living "happier" - that's fine. Nothing wrong with choosing a quality life. Get that newest car/phone/whatever other toys you want - I just don't want to hear those people complaining about how long it takes to pay off their debt. You made your decision - don't complain. And vice versa - I'm not going to be complaining when I pay the majority of my income towards my debt.