Current military/future non-trad with questions

[acousticallyblu]

I'm a 23-year old husband/father-to-be. I graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy with a B.S. in English and a GPA of 3.65. (This English major included more than enough Physics/Chemistry/Calculus to meet the prereqs--hence the "B.S."--and my grades were better in these classes than in English.) I'm currently studying at Nuclear Power School in preparation for submarine duty--the most academically-challenging path I could have chosen, and I'm doing well there too.

Six months into my 5-year commitment, however, I decided I wanted to be a doctor. Right now I think I want to choose a specialty in surgery, but I've been through enough to know that you can't be sure this far ahead. What I do know is that I'm going to med school.

It will be another 5 years before the Navy lets me go, but I'm glad I'm planning ahead. Before I get out, I should be able to find time for O-Chem and Bio (prereqs), but it's going to be tough to do any kind of shadowing or ECs.

I was considering going through the AFHPSP and letting the Navy pay for med school, but after reading the Military Medicine forum, that doesn't look like such a great idea (longer time commitment than I had anticipated, limited residency choices, general unhappiness, etc.). I think I'd rather suck it up and take out loans.

All that said, I have two questions:

1. How do you pay for living expenses during four years of med school? My wife works, but her income isn't enough to support us. Do the loans include money for living expenses, or just tuition/books/etc.?

2. Will my military experience/academic record be sufficient to get in (assuming good MCAT scores), or is there something else I should be doing?

Thanks so much for your input. I found this forum a week ago, and already, it's been invaluable.

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[efex101]

The loans you get through medical school will cover YOUR living expenses and some school will fork out a little bit more that will assist in supporting your wife. I know many medical students with families that are doing it so it is possible if you live a frugal lifestyle. Also, most of these folks had no prior debt coming in...so if you have some accumulated debt consider paying this off before you start.

Although your military experience will be a major plus and some schools will give you preferance...you still need to get some exposure to the healthcare field via volunteering, shadowing or both.

 

[Pemberley]

Also prior military, did most pre-reqs while in. Shadowing was very important for me. Helped confirm my interest in the field and helped with effective communication of that interest in interviews.

It may be easier than you think I went to the pathologist on base once a week during a "late lunch"... obviously this won't work while you're at sea.

I also had a more extensive experience at a local teaching hospital after I got out. Make yourself a good plan with a timeline. Good luck.

 

[PathOne]

I think it's not necessarily a long-shot. USNA isn't exactly a community college, and nuclear school isn't, as you point out, a walk in the park. Also, I would assume that you'd be able to shadow etc. when not sailing below the seven seas?

Financially, don't forget that unlike most other med student, you don't have any undergrad debt. Yes, you will incur debt in med school, but you're likely to pay that back fairly easily once past residency, so don't worry too much about that.

Without any specific personal knowledge of military medicine, it seems that HPSP is an option which should basically be avoided at all costs, even though you'd initially make much more as a resident, partly due to your prior service. Also, I'd forget about USU, as they'd bump you down to 2nd Lt., regardless of prior rank, and keep you in the military system for years and years.
(obviously, if you really like your Navy Whites, you can sign up AFTER med school and residency -- a much more attractive deal in terms of personal freedom).

One final thought: If you decide that you really don't want to become a military doc, seriously consider resigning your commission. With the increasing talk about a "doctor draft", you could be as big a target as a nuclear sub in the middle of Times Square...

 

[walden_pond]

I think it's great that you are thinking about this so soon. It gives you a lot of time to plan it out.

I'm in a similar position, but about three years later. I'm a submarine officer now and will be for the next couple of months. I'm going get out in 2008 and apply to medical school for 2009 admission.

You have great challenges ahead of you. Being on a submarine is tough. It will take the majority of your time for the next few years and you won't be thinking about medical school all that much. The skill set you gain from from being a junior officer on a submarine is awesome. Leadership, teamwork, integrity, responsibility, physical stamina, and academic rigor all will make your med school application sparkle. Keep focused on the boat. A letter of recommendation from the captain will be invaluable. Be the best junior officer, and you'll get the best evaluation.

You might want to consider the ODU program in engineering management. It fits in nicely with sea duty and will prove to a medical school that you can handle graduate work, especially in the sciences. The program is listed under the College of Engineering. The best part is the navy pays for it under tuition assistance and you don't incur and additional service.

I'll echo the importance of shadowing a physician. It should be pretty easy since there will be a naval hospital whereever you are stationed that you can do this shadowing. This is where you can get a letter of recommendation from a physician too.

Also, do some clinical volunteer work if it doesn't interfere with the boat's schedule. Start early and do it consistently. It will remind you of why you want to go into medicine while you're on the boat.

Good luck with power school and prototype. What you're doing is hard work but I promise it will pay off on the submarine.

 

[nata]

Hey. Another Nuke here, but not subs. I'm on my shore duty following CVN. I'll be going to med school in WI next fall. PM me if you have an specific questions. I will say there is a new program out that I don't see mentioned above. It's just like the LOEP (sp?) program but for medical. Basically, you stay active duty as a LT through med school (full medical-great for families). Not trying to sell it, but I know I would do it if I weren't past my six years service. It requires serious planning to be starting med school by your six year point, but you're thinking about it now, so you're ahead of the game.

 

[acousticallyblu]

Thanks so much for all the help. I should be able to work some sort of shadowing into my schedule along the way. I appreciate the encouragement and advice, and I guess I have a few years to figure out the finances.

 

[Bubblehead-to-MD]

I don't really have anything valuable to add to what has already been said.

I have completed the same path that you are now on - the only difference is our undergraduate major. I have had great success with my first attempt at getting into med school, and I am still in the process of fulfilling the Biology pre-requisites! So, I think you will be very well prepared for the application process after completing your sea tour, getting some of the remaining prereqs under your belt (I recommend Bio first if you don't take Orgo at the same time - it's much more important for the MCAT), and acquiring that ever-important clinical experience.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions or concerns.

 

[megadon]

I'm a 98 grad, mech E. Did subs, did my prereqs (biology and orgo) while on shore duty. Currently first year at Tennessee in HPSP. I got out in order to apply, you can apply while on active duty, but I wasn't getting in the first year, got waitlisted at some great schools. The application process is different if you are on active duty and trying to go HPSP. You have to fill out a contingent letter of resignation, which is basically a memo with another full officer application package, like the one you did five years ago and no longer remember. You will have to do the same thing if do HPSP though, but I didn't realize it at the time.

Basically, the thing that held me back the first year was lack of volunteer/clinical work. So here is my advice, first off, go fast attack, you get better sea stories, and you can live in Norfolk, Hawaii, or San Diego. However with a kid, consider four knots to nowhere or SSGN! SSGN looks pretty cool, and when I was on the way out it was still blue/gold. Do a shore tour, for one thing, it will get you over being jaded by the three year tour, especially if you do fast attacks. Either go ROTC or COMOPTEVFOR, as there is huge leniancy into letting you go finish your prereqs while still working (ie not not school, bio and orgo are not night school classes). If you get the engineering side of nuc power, the physical sciences will not bad, you can prepare with the Kaplan book. Biological sciences was my weakest grade, but ODU isn't the greatest school, and I didn't take anatomy/physiology, which would have helped, but isn't required.

HPSP doesn't pay a lot, I get 600 twice a month. That sucks after being a LT, and my wife was a Marine CAPT, so we had plenty of money, which will lead to an IRS audit probably. She got her MBA and works at FEDEX, making 60k. So, our lifestyle hasn't really changed much, especially once we unload our house in Norfolk. If you take loans, they do budget for housing, so it will be covered.

The military experience was invaluable in my interviews, except at EVMS. I had issues with my interview their, the lead interviewer was a super-lib pushing social medicine, and I think took an immediate disliking to my libertarian views, plus they have an interview system that is based on moral debates. Mine included Roe V Wade, which you can't argue rationally, everyone has too much emotional feeling tied into it. Shame, would have liked to stay in Norfolk, but I also love the school I'm at. Now, for the low down gouge, the other bonus to serving in the military is it gives you a very plausible excuse as to why you have no volunteer/clinical work. No one can argue that when you are in three or four section duty, or shift work, that you have time to do it. Plus, when you deploy, no opportunity. So keep that in your pocket. Best advice, try and do something with the corpsman to cover this, or do it during your shore tour, where you will have time, but no desire, to do it.

Parting words, it is very doable. When I was the acad, I got my nose busted in boxing => guareented trip to Bethesda, my doc was a sub officer, where I got the idea that I could do it. I have met numerous other sub guys who have done it during my career, either on the leaving end or the doctor end, so don't ever let anyone tell you it can't be done or the nuc locker won't let you go.

PM me if you have any other questions, I would be more than glad to help and give you my experience, which is going to be similar to yours. And enjoy Charleston, one of the greatest duty stations ever!

 

[8744]

What? Is there a submariner convention around here? I had no idea there were so many of you guys lurking around...although I guess that's kind of what you do for a living.

 

[Astro]

sounds like a stupid question but Stewart University (there's two forums under Pre-Allopathic) is saying to go to their medical school without a 4 yr degree, get a foreign medical license, then become a military doctor. Can a person do that? I will say, Stewart University looks like a scam; you can read comments on the other forums. http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=363489
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=362680

 

[Lebesgue]

I'm a 23-year old husband/father-to-be. I graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy with a B.S. in English and a GPA of 3.65. (This English major included more than enough Physics/Chemistry/Calculus to meet the prereqs--hence the "B.S."--and my grades were better in these classes than in English.) I'm currently studying at Nuclear Power School in preparation for submarine duty--the most academically-challenging path I could have chosen, and I'm doing well there too.

Six months into my 5-year commitment, however, I decided I wanted to be a doctor. Right now I think I want to choose a specialty in surgery, but I've been through enough to know that you can't be sure this far ahead. What I do know is that I'm going to med school.

It will be another 5 years before the Navy lets me go, but I'm glad I'm planning ahead. Before I get out, I should be able to find time for O-Chem and Bio (prereqs), but it's going to be tough to do any kind of shadowing or ECs.

I was considering going through the AFHPSP and letting the Navy pay for med school, but after reading the Military Medicine forum, that doesn't look like such a great idea (longer time commitment than I had anticipated, limited residency choices, general unhappiness, etc.). I think I'd rather suck it up and take out loans.

All that said, I have two questions:

1. How do you pay for living expenses during four years of med school? My wife works, but her income isn't enough to support us. Do the loans include money for living expenses, or just tuition/books/etc.?

2. Will my military experience/academic record be sufficient to get in (assuming good MCAT scores), or is there something else I should be doing?

Thanks so much for your input. I found this forum a week ago, and already, it's been invaluable.

1. Loans - they are enough for my wife, my son, and I. I did not do HPSP since I wanted to get whatever residency I wanted - it worked.

2. Yes. You don't need to do anything else.

 

[BCRowdy]

There is also a program out there, sorry not sure what it's called, but you can apply for your active duty assignment to be to go to med school. They foot the bill and your still getting paid active duty pay. sorry I don't know more, which branches, your pay back requirments that kind of thing but it's something to look into, if you are looking to stay in. but i guess you'd still have the broblem with a military residency.

 

[runningmom]

There is also a program out there, sorry not sure what it's called, but you can apply for your active duty assignment to be to go to med school. They foot the bill and your still getting paid active duty pay. sorry I don't know more, which branches, your pay back requirments that kind of thing but it's something to look into, if you are looking to stay in. but i guess you'd still have the broblem with a military residency.

I don't know all the details of what you are referring to, but I can safely say that nukes do not get to apply to any programs that have them change their designator until after they've served O4 billets on a carrier (for us surface guys) or the sub equivalent. That why most of us get out and get back into either USUHS, HPSP or go it alone. If he waits around to be eligible for this program, he is going to be pretty long in the tooth.

To the OP: Feel free PM me, bubblehead-to-MD, pandabear, or some of the other nukes out there for specifics as you make your plan. This is 100% doable as long as you know some of the steps to take. Get your pre-reqs out of the way when you have the chance and take the MCAT the year before you get out. It takes some planning, but again - it is 100% doable. And remember that you can shadow and work in the Naval hospitals and clinics through the Red Cross for volunteer experience while you are on active duty. Find your local chapter and start talking to the docs. They'll be more than willing to help out. Good luck.

 

[jp7]

This attachment may come in handy for some of you.

I am a civilian hoping to get into USUHS.

 

[FloridaGator]

I'm current military aspiring to go to medical school as well. Here's my plan and background info. I'd appreciate it if you all could tell me how good my chances are.

I graduated from U.F. with a B.S. in Mathematics (3.59 GPA).
I have an A.A. from the Defense Language Institute in Arabic (3.5 GPA)
I will soon have an A.A. from the Community College of the Air Force in Information Systems Analysis (or something to that effect)

I have two years left in the military and plan to spend them volunteering as an EMT and at a local medical center. I am also going to try to do some shadowing ASAP.
I am also participating in extracurriculars and doing as many leadership activities as I can in the Air Force.
Right after I get out I plan to apply to some Post-Bac Pre-Med programs to complete my pre-reqs that way.
Provided I do well in that program and get decent MCAT scores, would I have a good shot at getting into an allopathic medical school?

 

[georgia_md]

1. Loans - they are enough for my wife, my son, and I. I did not do HPSP since I wanted to get whatever residency I wanted - it worked.

2. Yes. You don't need to do anything else.

HPSP is not that bad, they will let you match with any program you qualify for. And rumor has it, stipend increases to 30K per year.

 

[m015094]

USNA '01, BS Chemistry. I just got out of the aviation community (S-3B NFO) to pursue a civilian career in medicine. Here are some money saving tips that might help:

1) Take your pre-reqs at community college or as a non-degree student (Old Dominion, etc). It's cheaper than a post-bacc, which you don't really need anyway.

2) See how you can do on the MCAT with just studying books (Kaplan) from the library. The course is kinda expensive (for someone who has a child) and a lot of people don't find it any more useful. If that doesn't work, then take the course.

3) Save and save some more. You get a nice nuke bonus. If you don't plan on doing the USUHS route (I'm not), you will want some spare change. It's not hard to be thrifty if you really try. Of course, you'll still need to take out loans. Unless you are independently wealthy, don't expect not to.

Oh, and just a thought about volunteer/medical time. I don't see how a submariner would shadow a physician, but I guess it's possible (do subs have medical officers?). Anyway, on the CVN I worked with the SMO, PA and RN to coordinate the PFA health assessments and do CPR training. It's not much, but it's something that is easy to do, and every little thing counts!

Much luck.

 

[r_mojo1]

Hey. Another Nuke here, but not subs. I'm on my shore duty following CVN. I'll be going to med school in WI next fall. PM me if you have an specific questions. I will say there is a new program out that I don't see mentioned above. It's just like the LOEP (sp?) program but for medical. Basically, you stay active duty as a LT through med school (full medical-great for families). Not trying to sell it, but I know I would do it if I weren't past my six years service. It requires serious planning to be starting med school by your six year point, but you're thinking about it now, so you're ahead of the game.

what is the name of the misterious program? I have only heard of two medical programs in the military--HPSP and USUHS

 

[slinkeyooo]

One thing to think about is that a number of schools if not all require any prereq grades to be less than 5 years old. So you may end up having to retake all of your prereq's.

 

[FNU LNU]

m015094: Alpha code--priceless

OP: I would strongly recommend doing your pre-reqs with a formal post-bacc program. This will give you dedicated academic advisors, as well as a ticket to the committee letter process. Getting a committee letter is huge, it essentially puts you on a level playing field with the undergrads. I did my post-bacc at a state school and things turned out fine. For more money, there are a few post-bacc programs out there that are linked with medical schools. This will allow you to avoid a glide year (and save money).

Your military experiance should mostly be a positive thing. You may occasionally have to answer stupid questions like, "do you have PTSD," or "what do you think of the war." Roll with it. Most civilians don't understand but want to. Just make sure that you hit all the same wickets as the undergrads (volunteer, medical-related work, research if possible).

Good luck,
FNU LNU
Club 28

 

[georgia_md]

One thing to think about is that a number of schools if not all require any prereq grades to be less than 5 years old. So you may end up having to retake all of your prereq's.

This is true. Many schools require prereqs within 5 year. ADCOMS look at 2 main things; UG gpa and MCAT scores. It's a numbers game

 

[dr milky]

USNA '00 S-3B pilot starting apps this summer

Clinical experience isn't all that hard to get if you have a Naval Hospital on your base. I just started showing up at the Jax Naval Hospital in my flight suit and flagging down docs. They were very cool and eventually got me into surgeries in just about every discipline. Getting your command to work with you is the biggest obstacle.

 

[dr milky]

Oh yeah, for all you USNA grads...USNA has a dedicated prof to help mids and post-bacc grads get into med school. He'll even write a committee letter of rec for you...

 

[cromagnon]

figured i'd chime in here since it seems to be an academy love fest up in here.

im a 95 grad, 2.12 GPA, poli-sci, SWO, five and dive.

by the time i was looking at applying the few pre-reqs i had were hella dated. i spent the next year taking ochem, gen, a&p, phys as night classes at a local uni as a non-degree seeking student. i was not part of a formal post-bacc program.

i aced the pre-req classes, did fairly well on the MCAT, and ended up with multiple acceptances.

point is that with your stats you will have nothing to worry about. real world experience (particularly leadership crap) is massive when it comes to adcoms. top that off with good grades, academy grad, nuke, etc your application will be a slam dunk.

one thing you may want to look into is the diving medical officer program. def a cool billet if you are into that sort of thing.

other than that, i think getting out and not doing your school or residency with the military is the way to go. other services have diff prog, but the
navy residency selection system blows.

best of luck, enjoy your time in the nav.

 

[CoastieLT]

Its great to see I'm not the only one doing this! Currently serving in the US Coast Guard as OPS onboard a High Endurance Cutter, graduated from NAVY DH Class 185... Loved every single second in New Port!
BS in Bio from University of Puerto Rico... GPA is 2.77
Planning to take the MCAT next JAN
Wife, one kiddo and another on the way...
Currently re-taking my pre-reqs thru the state university and hoping to make way towards med school in 2009....

Good Luck to all!