Current State of Affairs - Saturation?

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jjkz

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I noticed BLS now projects Job Outlook 2016-26 at 6% (As fast as average). This is obviously an improvement from the previous projection of 3%. Also PDI has improved from Q3 2017 to 2.92 in Q4 2017, so just under 3 where demand is in balance with supply.

I was wondering what the Current state of affairs are in terms of employment opportunities (and perhaps working conditions) from REAL pharmacists?

Have you personally seen an improvement?

Would you still advise pharm school is a poor investment decision?

As someone who has declined admission, I can’t help but to look in the rear view mirror now and then...any on the grounds insight is appreciated. Thank you.
 
Half of the US is under a 3. You do the math
 
If you're young, expect to work retail and don't mind it, can minimize the cost of education by attending a reasonably priced public school, and are okay with having to relocate, then yes, it may be a good investment.
I noticed BLS now projects Job Outlook 2016-26 at 6% (As fast as average). This is obviously an improvement from the previous projection of 3%. Also PDI has improved from Q3 2017 to 2.92 in Q4 2017, so just under 3 where demand is in balance with supply.

I was wondering what the Current state of affairs are in terms of employment opportunities (and perhaps working conditions) from REAL pharmacists?

Have you personally seen an improvement?

Would you still advise pharm school is a poor investment decision?

As someone who has declined admission, I can’t help but to look in the rear view mirror now and then...any on the grounds insight is appreciated. Thank you.

You made the right choice. No offense to anyone. Unless the Bachelor of science in pharmacy is completely phased out and those pharmacists either get a pharmD or are forced into retirement, there just isn't room for everyone. It would take something that radical to reset the market.
You have to be willing to move anywhere and be ready to be abused. Full time hours (80 hours) are unheard of these days unless you take a pharmacy manager position.
 
Oh lord, always with the hyperbole. Every full-time pharmacist at my job is 40 hours per week, except for two pharmacists that only want to work 32 hours per week. Hardly "unheard of".

Yes, things are bad and getting worse. There is absolutely no need to make things sound worse than they actually are. Right now things are still pretty decent - pharmacists make good money and have a decent career prospect. The problem is what the future holds...
 
Oh lord, always with the hyperbole. Every full-time pharmacist at my job is 40 hours per week, except for two pharmacists that only want to work 32 hours per week. Hardly "unheard of".

Yes, things are bad and getting worse. There is absolutely no need to make things sound worse than they actually are. Right now things are still pretty decent - pharmacists make good money and have a decent career prospect. The problem is what the future holds...

I forgot *This message was brought to you and endorsed by the U.S Bureau of Labor Statistics*

I should say, though, that in my area, the only retail openings that you see are for CVS. You do not see them for supermarkets or Walmart. If and when you see them for Walmart, they're advertised as full-time, but it's never for 80-hours per pay period. The last person was hired for 80 hours that I know of was in 12/2016. All staff positions are for 56, 64, or 72. You have to get out to the boonies to get offered staff at 80 hours/pay period.

Are you still in retail?
 
I forgot *This message was brought to you and endorsed by the U.S Bureau of Labor Statistics*

I should say, though, that in my area, the only retail openings that you see are for CVS. You do not see them for supermarkets or Walmart. If and when you see them for Walmart, they're advertised as full-time, but it's never for 80-hours per pay period. The last person was hired for 80 hours that I know of was in 12/2016. All staff positions are for 56, 64, or 72. You have to get out to the boonies to get offered staff at 80 hours/pay period.

Are you still in retail?

Nope! Was your comment only meant to apply to retail?
 
I noticed BLS now projects Job Outlook 2016-26 at 6% (As fast as average). This is obviously an improvement from the previous projection of 3%. Also PDI has improved from Q3 2017 to 2.92 in Q4 2017, so just under 3 where demand is in balance with supply.

I was wondering what the Current state of affairs are in terms of employment opportunities (and perhaps working conditions) from REAL pharmacists?

Have you personally seen an improvement?

Would you still advise pharm school is a poor investment decision?

As someone who has declined admission, I can’t help but to look in the rear view mirror now and then...any on the grounds insight is appreciated. Thank you.

No not better but not catastrophic either.

Absolutely a terrible investment decision, not due to the 80-90k tuition but for the 6-7 year commit. For the total effort,time, tuition put into RX something like nursing and comp sci totally blow it out of the water. career should be like investing. would you plunk down such a large commit for a waning field..of course not!
 
All I can say is that things weren't looking great when I graduated five years ago. I was able to make it work due to some rather aggressive career moves, in part because I am not close to my family nor do I desire children. Honestly, I would not envy a new graduate who was tied to any particular area. My willingness to move was the only thing that allowed me to progress as quickly as I did.

Anyone who is considering pharmacy at this point, please think on why you are choosing this career. The money, ease of finding employment, and the comfortable lifestyle have not be guaranteed for a decade now. If you are dreaming of being a clinical pharmacist, please speak to someone who actually holds this job before you enroll. Many of us have found that being a "clinical pharmacist" in the real world was nothing like what your school told you.

There are a lot of great things about being a pharmacist. Despite my pessimistic nature, I enjoy what I do and do not regret my choice. You just need to understand what you are getting into, what you will actually be doing, and where you will be doing it.
 
There are a lot of great things about being a pharmacist. Despite my pessimistic nature, I enjoy what I do and do not regret my choice. You just need to understand what you are getting into, what you will actually be doing, and where you will be doing it.

How many of these new pharm students are barely even 21? They likely have 0 real world experience at getting a job or really even working. Heck at least a good 20% of my class was not currently working in a pharmacy when we started school. On top of that you have to consider who their resources are for information. Their undergrad pre-pharm advisers likely have zero experience about what happens after they get into pharmacy school, so they really have nothing more to add than what classes they need to take, when to apply, and how many students from that school have gotten into certain pharmacy schools. The pharmacy school has zero reason to tell any new applicants or current students how crappy the job market is or really do anything other than just cash their checks. At the end of the day the only people who are going to tell these kids that this might not be a great choice is someone actively working in the field. Of course, why would they believe us? We are just saying that because we don't really want to be pharmacists or work in a crappy area.🙄
 
Be glad you got out.

You have no idea how soothing it is for me to hear from actual pharmacists that I made the right choice and passed on the pharmD. Its a prestigious degree and the work is vital for patients...but i just couldn’t make the numbers work for me. I got accepted into a private university and after calculating for compounding interest on the loans while in school, I was looking at 280k in debt upon graduation. That huge amount of debt scared me enough, then add to that the job saturation and I couldn’t see how I could find enough work to pay the debt off.
 
No not better but not catastrophic either.

Absolutely a terrible investment decision, not due to the 80-90k tuition but for the 6-7 year commit. For the total effort,time, tuition put into RX something like nursing and comp sci totally blow it out of the water. career should be like investing. would you plunk down such a large commit for a waning field..of course not!

I was looking at 280k in debt...
 
All I can say is that things weren't looking great when I graduated five years ago. I was able to make it work due to some rather aggressive career moves, in part because I am not close to my family nor do I desire children. Honestly, I would not envy a new graduate who was tied to any particular area. My willingness to move was the only thing that allowed me to progress as quickly as I did.

Anyone who is considering pharmacy at this point, please think on why you are choosing this career. The money, ease of finding employment, and the comfortable lifestyle have not be guaranteed for a decade now. If you are dreaming of being a clinical pharmacist, please speak to someone who actually holds this job before you enroll. Many of us have found that being a "clinical pharmacist" in the real world was nothing like what your school told you.

There are a lot of great things about being a pharmacist. Despite my pessimistic nature, I enjoy what I do and do not regret my choice. You just need to understand what you are getting into, what you will actually be doing, and where you will be doing it.

I agree 100% with everything that you said. The profession wasn't what I expected when I went into pharmacy school, but I am "trying" to make the best of it.

I was a pharm tech in the early 2000's. Went into pharmacy expecting to have a very stable, easy, and financially rewarding career in one of the three chains. At that time, chains offered sign on bonus, unlimited OT, great benefits, etc. By the time that I graduated, all that I could get was a part time-24 hr floating gig. Had to "remake" myself into a hospital pharmacist. Now, just holding on to my job, hoping to do it for at least 20 more years.
 
You have no idea how soothing it is for me to hear from actual pharmacists that I made the right choice and passed on the pharmD. Its a prestigious degree and the work is vital for patients...but i just couldn’t make the numbers work for me. I got accepted into a private university and after calculating for compounding interest on the loans while in school, I was looking at 280k in debt upon graduation. That huge amount of debt scared me enough, then add to that the job saturation and I couldn’t see how I could find enough work to pay the debt off.

I will say it again. You made the right decision. Without this degree of saturation, you could have made the numbers work. On the other hand, we can all walk down to USPS and get PSLF there by making minimum payments. I am just giving a little perspective here. PSLF works great for those with a lot of debt.
 
I noticed BLS now projects Job Outlook 2016-26 at 6% (As fast as average). This is obviously an improvement from the previous projection of 3%. Also PDI has improved from Q3 2017 to 2.92 in Q4 2017, so just under 3 where demand is in balance with supply.

I was wondering what the Current state of affairs are in terms of employment opportunities (and perhaps working conditions) from REAL pharmacists?

Have you personally seen an improvement?

Would you still advise pharm school is a poor investment decision?

As someone who has declined admission, I can’t help but to look in the rear view mirror now and then...any on the grounds insight is appreciated. Thank you.

I saw that change to the BLS information and honestly I think it was either a pharmacy school dean pressuring to change the numbers or some other manipulation because when I do the numbers of 15,000 new pharmDs being printed every year and a finite 1,700 new jobs being created and an average of 5,000 pharmacists retiring every year (being generous here) the unemployment rate of pharmacists should be around 40-50% unemployed. Of course there will be many new grads going into residency, working fastfood or labor jobs so those new grads will be technically "employed" by the government's and pharmacy schools definition, but earning around 7.25 - 11.00 USD an hour.
 
I will say it again. You made the right decision. Without this degree of saturation, you could have made the numbers work. On the other hand, we can all walk down to USPS and get PSLF there by making minimum payments. I am just giving a little perspective here. PSLF works great for those with a lot of debt.
Thank you. Thank you. May I ask when u graduated?
 
You have no idea how soothing it is for me to hear from actual pharmacists that I made the right choice and passed on the pharmD. Its a prestigious degree and the work is vital for patients...but i just couldn’t make the numbers work for me. I got accepted into a private university and after calculating for compounding interest on the loans while in school, I was looking at 280k in debt upon graduation. That huge amount of debt scared me enough, then add to that the job saturation and I couldn’t see how I could find enough work to pay the debt off.

$280K in debt? Yeah, you made a good decision!
 
You have no idea how soothing it is for me to hear from actual pharmacists that I made the right choice and passed on the pharmD. Its a prestigious degree and the work is vital for patients...but i just couldn’t make the numbers work for me. I got accepted into a private university and after calculating for compounding interest on the loans while in school, I was looking at 280k in debt upon graduation. That huge amount of debt scared me enough, then add to that the job saturation and I couldn’t see how I could find enough work to pay the debt off.

Whew...you dodged a bullet.
 
I was looking at 280k in debt...

Completely ludicrous to go to RX school with that type of debt. not even laughable just sad. I can assure you there are many other opportunities out there in healthcare without that burden
 
When I brought up these issues (ie poor job market, supply too high, high debt) with fellow classmates their responses were always to the effect that practicing pharmacist are lying or that im being overly critical.


Classmates would say “pharmacist just say those things only to deter you from a lucrative career”. They would say dont believe in the lies they tell you becuase all that their trying to do is scare people off from applying so they can take more of the pie home. One particular student told me that I worry too much and we should only worry about the job market only AFTER we graduate.


I was pretty upset and angered by their outlook on practicing pharmacists. Here was a profession they sought yet they were so naive and disrespectful to practicing pharmacisits because of their unwillingness to take any information they were being told as truth.


I for one live each day believing that everyone is inherently good. I also did some independent research and back in 2016 is apparently when the market turned and the number of applicants outnumbered the number of available jobs.


I only bring this up to shed some light on the mindset of the majority of these students and explain my journey and maybe just maybe there’s a prepharmer out there in the same predicament as I was tinkering on attending or not and this discussion will help.
 
How many of these pharmacy students have ever had to look for a real job before? We had numerous people in our class who were barely 20 when they started pharmacy school, I highly doubt they had much real world experience to really be able to understand what awaited them.
 
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When I brought up these issues (ie poor job market, supply too high, high debt) with fellow classmates their responses were always to the effect that practicing pharmacist are lying or that im being overly critical.


Classmates would say “pharmacist just say those things only to deter you from a lucrative career”. They would say dont believe in the lies they tell you becuase all that their trying to do is scare people off from applying so they can take more of the pie home. One particular student told me that I worry too much and we should only worry about the job market only AFTER we graduate.


I was pretty upset and angered by their outlook on practicing pharmacists. Here was a profession they sought yet they were so naive and disrespectful to practicing pharmacisits because of their unwillingness to take any information they were being told as truth.


I for one live each day believing that everyone is inherently good. I also did some independent research and back in 2016 is apparently when the market turned and the number of applicants outnumbered the number of available jobs.


I only bring this up to shed some light on the mindset of the majority of these students and explain my journey and maybe just maybe there’s a prepharmer out there in the same predicament as I was tinkering on attending or not and this discussion will help.


Signs were obvious of impending oversupply well before 2016. My pharmacy school was openly discussing rapidly changing job market and inability to find jobs in Atlanta in 2009-2010 (right after recession hit).
 
How many of these pharmacy students have ever had to look for a real job before? We had numerous people in our class who were barely 20 when they started pharmacy school, I highly doubt they had much real world experience to really be able to understand what awaited them.

They have never looked for a real job, let alone worked in one. It’s easy to dismiss the complaints of working pharmacist as armchair pharmacists who have never held real responsibilities nor faced real challenges and criticism in life.
 
When I brought up these issues (ie poor job market, supply too high, high debt) with fellow classmates their responses were always to the effect that practicing pharmacist are lying or that im being overly critical.


Classmates would say “pharmacist just say those things only to deter you from a lucrative career”. They would say dont believe in the lies they tell you becuase all that their trying to do is scare people off from applying so they can take more of the pie home. One particular student told me that I worry too much and we should only worry about the job market only AFTER we graduate.


I was pretty upset and angered by their outlook on practicing pharmacists. Here was a profession they sought yet they were so naive and disrespectful to practicing pharmacisits because of their unwillingness to take any information they were being told as truth.

Sad to say but you will end up with the last laugh as you won't be buried in 200k+ student loan debt.
 
Mediocre profession, mediocre pay, no career trajectory. Graduate and get paid the same til you die with +0-3% raises every year while your other college buddies making 2-5x in 10-20 yrs. Meh... Dunno why people still go to pharmacy school nowadays. Have to be kinda stupid to pick this job now.
 
Mediocre profession, mediocre pay, no career trajectory. Graduate and get paid the same til you die with +0-3% raises every year while your other college buddies making 2-5x in 10-20 yrs. Meh... Dunno why people still go to pharmacy school nowadays. Have to be kinda stupid to pick this job now.

Add lack of bargaining power to this list. Kroger bought Roundy's (supermarket chain in the Midwest) and rearranged pharmacy structure. Staff pharmacists hours are being cut from 35 -> 31 hours/week and managers are now required to work 40 hour weeks (up from 35). Does not seem like a significant change, but trust me, for those with families and kids, it is. Thanks to the saturation, there is not a got damn thing that can be done. The entire profession is now at the whim of the corporations and bean counters.
 
Also the degree is not versatile at all, so all these people who end up graduating unemployed have a very good chance of washing out of the profession with nowhere to land. Imagine going to school for 6-8 years, being $200,000+ in debt, and only able to get a $15/hr job. The pharmacy schools are going to have to deal with a lot of angry ex-students in a few years.
 
I wonder how long it'll be before this catches up to us ivory tower hospital types.
 
Mediocre profession, mediocre pay, no career trajectory. Graduate and get paid the same til you die with +0-3% raises every year while your other college buddies making 2-5x in 10-20 yrs. Meh... Dunno why people still go to pharmacy school nowadays. Have to be kinda stupid to pick this job now.

Yep. First hand experience here. Couple of friends of mine started off at 65k in tech and now making like 150k base and 200k in total compensation. stock options out the ass every year. You know why people do pharmacy? Cuz it's safe...or they think it's safe. Tech seems scary and uncertain to a lot of people but people are literally making a killing in tech right now.
 
Yep. First hand experience here. Couple of friends of mine started off at 65k in tech and now making like 150k base and 200k in total compensation. stock options out the ass every year. You know why people do pharmacy? Cuz it's safe...or they think it's safe. Tech seems scary and uncertain to a lot of people but people are literally making a killing in tech right now.

Not everyone going into tech is raking it in. Just because you have a few examples does not mean it is the norm. Truth is that many professions are in bad shape. Really it is only an issue for pharmacy due to numerous years of school and debt required to get into the profession.
 
Not everyone going into tech is raking it in. Just because you have a few examples does not mean it is the norm. Truth is that many professions are in bad shape. Really it is only an issue for pharmacy due to numerous years of school and debt required to get into the profession.

Of course.
 
Tech workers are in very high demand. Just look at how tech companies treat their workers vs how pharmacies treat theirs. Tech workers not only enjoy high salaries and stock options but also catered gourmet meals, on-site laundry and gym, on-site daycare (even for pets), shuttle buses, etc. As a pharmacist? Happy Hunger Games while you're $200k+ in debt. If you can even land a job, you will be standing on your feet for 14 hours straight while getting shaken down by customers and corporate. You'll be lucky to even get a five-minute lunch break, let alone a complimentary catered gourmet meal.
 
Tech workers are in very high demand. Just look at how tech companies treat their workers vs how pharmacies treat theirs. Tech workers not only enjoy high salaries and stock options but also catered gourmet meals, on-site laundry and gym, on-site daycare (even for pets), shuttle buses, etc. As a pharmacist? Happy Hunger Games while you're $200k+ in debt. If you can even land a job, you will be standing on your feet for 14 hours straight while getting shaken down by customers and corporate. You'll be lucky to even get a five-minute lunch break, let alone a complimentary catered gourmet meal.

Yea I was trying to make this point. of course not every one in tech is making a killing and that's not how it works. you should be good at what you do...whereas in pharmacy...all you need is the degree.
 
I asked this question to several pharmacists that I work with in a hospital. The general consensus I got was if you don't agree to (1) going into retail and possibly having to relocate, (2) relocating to a very remote area to find a hospital job, or (3) getting a PGY1 and likely having to relocate to get a hospital job, then you should seriously rethink going into pharmacy. They all said they are ok with what they are doing now, but if they could do it all again would most likely choose something else.
 
You have no idea how soothing it is for me to hear from actual pharmacists that I made the right choice and passed on the pharmD. Its a prestigious degree and the work is vital for patients...but i just couldn’t make the numbers work for me. I got accepted into a private university and after calculating for compounding interest on the loans while in school, I was looking at 280k in debt upon graduation. That huge amount of debt scared me enough, then add to that the job saturation and I couldn’t see how I could find enough work to pay the debt off.

What are you going into now?
 
What are you going into now?

For a while I was contemplating going into tech based on one or two SDN users who frequently and strongly praise the IT industry (I won’t name names LOL), however, ultimately I decided against it. I think all of the positive praise you get from people regarding the tech industry can be attributed to the fact that most people suffer from the “grass is greener syndrome.” They hear one or two success stories and buy into the fact that everything is dandy on the other side.

The truth of the matter is there is a success story to be found in EVERY profession. I know a successful lawyer, a successful physical therapist, a successful pharmacists even…etc. If you name a profession I’m sure I can give you ONE success story. I think the key in drawing an accurate conclusion however should be to focused on where the majority of practitioners of that profession fall and ignore the onesie-twosie stories people cite as the basis of their conclusion.

So, in a nutshell this is why I chose against pursuing a career in CS/Ttechnology:

1- The MAJORITY of IT workers DO NOT make anywhere near pharmacist salaries of $100k+. The majority of IT workers don’t make $100K+, period. IT salaries in average cities range between 50K to maybe the high 80s with extensive years (7+) of experience. The minority higher paying jobs in excess of 90K+ are definitely the minority (e.g. software engineering) and are offered in bigger cities (SanFran, NY, BayArea) where the cost of living is 2-3x more than your average city, making your salary very dismal. To put it in perspective, it costs approximately $1,100/sqft in SanFran making an average home size of just 1500sqft cost $1,650,000.

2- IT jobs are outsourced and if not outsourced they will 100% be. This is a no brainer…the product or service is deliverable online through secure file transfers and it saves the company millions. So make this realization, you’re no longer competing in a domestically saturated market (like the pharmacy profession currently), you’re essentially have to compete with someone on the other side of the globe who will do it for less and perhaps better because their educational path didn’t require them to take a myriad of electives (e.g. humanities, social sciences, etc.).

3- If the jobs are currently not outsourced then there’s the financial incentive for corporations to consider outsourcing in the future, using consultant companies that hire H1Bs, or just hiring TONS of H1bs directly… ALL OF WHICH AGAIN SAVE THEM TONS OF MONEY as opposed to just hiring domestic Full-Time employees.

4- Don’t look at the top companies like Facebook, Google, Apple who hire directly from ivy league schools. It’s a well known fact that these companies have their pick at the litter and they regularly just employ from neighboring ivy league schools.

I have three cousins in the IT industry all of whom unanimously say look the other way. Each of them swears to the fact that H1Bs outnumber FTEs by 9 to 1 in their respective offices. I don’t have it all figured, but like everyone else I try to apply common logic and have come to the realization that the IT/CS path isn’t all cheerios…far from it in fact. In picking a successful career, I think it’s important to look at what you enjoy first and foremost and second to that determine the durability of the career (i.e. can the career withstand the current trends of the time such as automation, outsourcing, etc.)

I personally passed up on Pharmacy and am now looking into becoming a Nurse Practitioner. Salaries easily start at 90K+ (where I would like to be to have the lifestyle I want), and you have the autonomy to diagnose and prescribe. You can also operate your own practice and work under a physician’s license. I don’t see the profession being squashed by automation or outsourcing. There is a lot of versatility with the degree. If you’re not into direct patient contact, as I know from my experience in my prereq classes many pre-pharmers are not, you can become a case manager or office manager where you have no direct contact with bodily fluids (i.e. Blood, urine, etc.) and spend majority of your time in an office setting in a supervisory role. All of my pre-pharm courses are applicable as well and it speedies up my academic journey. Hope this post helped. Good Luck!
 
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