Current Vets and Vet students: WWYD?

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Based on everything said, why is a VPA even a thing if it’s essentially the exact same duties as a CVT? I’m just once again not understanding 😭 why can’t we just protect credentialed techs
The people that wanted this tried to get it approved through normal means for a few years, but so many people in the profession were opposed to it, they couldn’t get enough support to get it enacted. So they found a loophole of sorts and got enough signatures do whatever to make it a ballot initiative the general public voted on in order to create the role anyway despite opposition within the profession, “because the people want it”. The people in charge of it don’t actually want it to be essentially a rvt role, they wanted it to essentially be a vet role including doing intraabdominal surgeries. But now the people in the profession who were opposed are basically trying to just make it so redundant as the laws and scope of practice get hammered out so that there’s no incentive and basically prevent it from being a real thing.
 
A friend in Colorado told me most lay people didn’t even understand what the bill entailed. Hence why it passed.
iirc they worded it weird on the ballot and also said it would increase availability of care and make vet care cheaper 🥲🫠 which of course it won’t make anything cheaper because the expensive **** is diagnostics and that is not going to be cheaper just because a VPA is running/interpreting it 🙃
Was going to say exactly this. People don't care about what's going on as long as they think their bills are cheaper, until their pet is dead thanks to a VPA (and the vet is ultimately held responsible).

PAs have not increased access to care/lessened the costs of medical care in the real world afaik. Their office visits might literally be less than an MD/DO's and they might be able to offer additional appointments on top of the MD/DO, but that is still not enough for a person who does not have enough income for any medical care to begin with. Stupid to think VPAs would magically achieve cheap vet care.
 
Yes! Plus owe UAF a few thousand every semester I would be there on top of everything else
That's crazy 🙁 I wish they would let you establish domicile but I guess bc it's a 2+2 program, they can't. Ugh!
 
I will not recommend becoming a veterinarian for the foreseeable future to anyone who isn't already on the path. I have an assistant that deserves the world and wants to become a vet. I'm hoping to help her get into human med school instead when her life rights itself.
💯💯💯

I have a beautiful excel sheet with my monthly bills and income that I have zero problem sharing screenshots of later so you can see what a real life ER doctor (75/hr) makes before my husband became a stay at home dad and now after. I'm trialing until the end of March. If by the end of March it's not doable, I'm either going to have to increase my shifts, or my husband will have to go back to work. My husband graduated high school, did some community college, and then went into retail/hospitality. His take home even then was $100/day. So not a ton (1600/month) for reference.
Are you still working three 12s? I'm in a similar boat when it comes to my fiance's earning potential vs my own. I will likely make at least 3x his salary as a first-year vet. I wonder if your takehome pay would be higher if AUC paid their doctors on prosal instead of hourly? I know we had a discussion this summer about the pros of working hourly, but I am curious how much production would make a difference. Based on my own pursuit of jobs in CO and in IL, along with talking to my classmates about their offers, it seems that the vet market in Denver is much more saturated and is not offering quite as high of salaries as elsewhere.

Vet med is in for a wild ride. At the beginning of the year when my established, solidly supported ER group started hearing grumbles from corporate about income, I know the less supported clinics were in for a bad time. I said it would be all these little urgent cares that opened in the last 2-3 years would be the first. And I was right.
What do you mean here? Was Ethos complaining about your clinics' profits or in general? Now I'm curious to hear if any practices ended up getting shut down? I have at least 2 classmates moving to the Denver metro to work at urgent cares (one sploot, one ???).
 
Are you still working three 12s?

In general. But I might have to bump it up to 14-15 shifts per month. TBD. Depends on how March shapes up as far as household expenses.

I wonder if your takehome pay would be higher if AUC paid their doctors on prosal instead of hourly? I know we had a discussion this summer about the pros of working hourly, but I am curious how much production would make a difference.

For me specifically, I would not cause I'm sitting at 33% production rates or around $450 production per case. And we are paid at 25% plus our benefits, which is generally better than average. Part of my problem is being at the slow hospital and doing a lot of overnights.

it seems that the vet market in Denver is much more saturated and is not offering quite as high of salaries as elsewhere.

I strongly agree. I think part of the problem is it's a metro area without a lot of metro area problems. And I think Colorado is vastly over rated as a native born Coloradoan.

Was Ethos complaining about your clinics' profits or in general?

Profits at each location in general. They've cut hours at the OG location at this point.

Now I'm curious to hear if any practices ended up getting shut down?

VCA closed all their urgent cares in Colorado

have at least 2 classmates moving to the Denver metro to work at urgent cares (one sploot, one ???).

Sploot should be okay cause they're GP and true urgent care. One sploot sends us everything that needs overnight hospitalization.
 
If you do not mind me asking, how much has tuition increased from your schools since you graduated? I'm sure it also varied year to year?

I'm a current 4th year at an out of state school, and my tuition has increased by almost 10,000 since my first year. It hasn't increased as drastically for the in-state students at my school though.
 
Hello everyone! Weird question but does anyone have any good recommendations for stiff NG tubes for equine? I’m a tech at UMN and we’re looking for new NG tubes that are not flimsy. It’s hard because most are too flexible
 
Hey everyone. With the news that the administration of federal student loans will now be overseen by the Small Business Association with the DOE essentially defunded, what are we all doing? Does anyone know if federal student loans going to be offered this year? What do we do if they aren't? Go with private loans? I've only heard horror stories with private loan companies.

I'm so happy to have gotten into my in-state school, I have a chance to realistically pay off my loans one day. But now it just feels like I got the rug pulled from under me. This is half a rant about the state of things, and half a genuine question- advice or more ranting appreciated.
 
I don’t think we have enough info yet to know anything. Hopefully nothing significant will change but the name of the org overseeing. I mean, I’m not so naive to actually believe that, but there will likely be many lawsuits and contention over any change and that takes significant time to play out.

My advice is don’t go private unless/until you’re 100% sure there isn’t a federal option available to you. Federal loans can (at least in the past) always be made private but you can’t use the federal income based repayment plans (should they continue to exist) on private loans. So as long as they’ll let you take federal loans, I’d still do that.
 
Hey everyone. With the news that the administration of federal student loans will now be overseen by the Small Business Association with the DOE essentially defunded, what are we all doing? Does anyone know if federal student loans going to be offered this year? What do we do if they aren't? Go with private loans? I've only heard horror stories with private loan companies.

I'm so happy to have gotten into my in-state school, I have a chance to realistically pay off my loans one day. But now it just feels like I got the rug pulled from under me. This is half a rant about the state of things, and half a genuine question- advice or more ranting appreciated.
Being really sad, really anxious. Also really angry that I can't celebrate this period of life like I should (we should) be able to.

We will meet with our professional student loan planner ahead of matriculation, as much for short term strategizing as long term planning with the information available at that time.
 
Im just glad im entering school now, where in 4 years things will hopefully be different. I am so sorry for the upcoming grads that are having this thrown onto them right before graduation. It most be so stressful adding on to the last couple of weeks of classes/rotations
 
Im just glad im entering school now, where in 4 years things will hopefully be different. I am so sorry for the upcoming grads that are having this thrown onto them right before graduation. It most be so stressful adding on to the last couple of weeks of classes/rotations
Well we're not completely out of the woods. We might have limited loan options if any at all. If they don't get transferred to the SBA, then it would be privatized and 2029 grads would have all private loans which do not qualify for any form of forgiveness.
 
Well we're not completely out of the woods. We might have limited loan options if any at all. If they don't get transferred to the SBA, then it would be privatized and 2029 grads would have all private loans which do not qualify for any form of forgiveness.
Check out the comment on the APVMA Facebook this morning; one applicant received an email from a school stating they will not be doing scholarships traditionally given to low-income students "due to executive orders" - and my experience is that tOSU will only commit to "sending personal financial aid statements for accepted students in early April" (no I don't know if early April is before the 15th.) The only school that will give me a straight answer is Dublin (I give them considerable credit) and I am very worried that the ability to choose a school based upon an accurate assessment of cost is impossible this year. I am also worried that federal loans will not happen without considerable drama and confusion for the vet school community and the entire undergraduate community in the US.
 
Dublin could be straight forward because they don't rely on loans to fund their education system the same way. I wonder how the foreign schools feel; this will drastically influence how many US nationals will be students in the future.

Higher education relies heavily on the federal loan programs as a source of funding. Without federal student loans, they're all going to have to restructure. We might see a lot of program closures by the end of the summer before matriculation. And any new programs in the process? I bet those schools are now pumping those breaks (literally the only silver lining for vet med right now).
 
Check out the comment on the APVMA Facebook this morning; one applicant received an email from a school stating they will not be doing scholarships traditionally given to low-income students "due to executive orders" - and my experience is that tOSU will only commit to "sending personal financial aid statements for accepted students in early April" (no I don't know if early April is before the 15th.) The only school that will give me a straight answer is Dublin (I give them considerable credit) and I am very worried that the ability to choose a school based upon an accurate assessment of cost is impossible this year. I am also worried that federal loans will not happen without considerable drama and confusion for the vet school community and the entire undergraduate community in the US.
I saw that too and my jaw dropped. I know this isn’t a unique take, but working at a large, high-needs urban district has made me super cynical, and I had a feeling (so have my previous colleagues) that one deeper goal of the “DEI” nonsense was ultimately a way to attack financial support for those this regime doesn’t want to have access to higher education. Because when they put it in writing, they state things like “schools cannot treat students differently based on identity,” which ultimately would lead to the inability to provide any specialized funding. Because they don’t just say, “LGBTQ+” or “disabled” or “immigrant,” they just say based on identity. That could be low-SES, POC, gender, sexual orientation, disability, immigrant, you name it. And when we can’t provide equitable access based on identity, those with access will be those that align with the accepted identity.

They represented DEI as only representing trans/NB/LGBTQ/immigrants because they are counting on their base and the public in general to say, “well those lost protections only affect a few people.” (Generalizing here, but they certainly won’t tell people up front that no identity, now, can be equitably supported.) I am proud of the schools that have taken a stand and still have DEI commitments up. Because as schools have already found out, the goal posts will keep moving until suddenly, we have irreversibly ruined education in this country.

No federal student loans? Now private loans are not only exorbitantly expensive, but they also require credit checks that - surprise, surprise - will make attendance next to impossible for those of lower-SES. I know firsthand - struggled through college at Penn State, because I did not have a parent with good credit who could cosign for me. Despite working 20+ hours a week, maintaining a 4.0, and applying and receiving many scholarships, I nearly dropped out every year over anywhere from $2k-$4k. Every summer I’d run around with a pit in my stomach, unsure if I’d actually get to finish that degree.

It’s not about merit. It never was. It’s injustice to treat everyone equally. Those of the current regime know this - that’s why they are attacking diversity, equity, and inclusion. Because equality isn’t justice, equity is justice.

It’s easy to pretend that you’re just attacking diversity, equity, and inclusion policies, when really you’re unseating an entire system’s way to make equitable access happen, including scholarships, disabled protections, etc. The end goal is to make it absolutely impossible for anyone deemed undesirable to access education and ultimately power. Scholarships and loans are at the heart of it, and I’m afraid to see this nightmare playing out as it has.
 
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I know that it's a lot of turmoil, but if you're lucky enough to have an acceptance to a school that does it, or if you're planning on applying, focus on schools that are standing their ground on DEI. While the words may have changed to fit the federal landscape, but these come directly from statements from UMN:

"Our College remains fully committed to providing an inclusive, supportive, and enriching educational environment for all learners. We are dedicated to maintaining the highest standards of veterinary medical education, as supported and informed by the accreditation standards of the American Veterinary Medical Association Council on Education (AVMA COE). These standards guide our curriculum and ensure that our students receive a comprehensive, high-quality education that prepares you for success in your future careers."

"As President, I am writing to address any confusion and reaffirm my—and the University’s—longstanding commitment to fostering a diverse, equitable and inclusive environment that best supports the needs of each and every individual across our five campuses, regardless of their citizenship status."

They even still have this webpage up: Monitoring federal policy changes.

Stick with schools who will stick with you. Do not obey in advance.
 
I saw that too and my jaw dropped. I know this isn’t a unique take, but working at a large, high-needs urban district has made me super cynical, and I had a feeling (so have my previous colleagues) that one deeper goal of the “DEI” nonsense was ultimately a way to attack financial support for those this regime doesn’t want to have access to higher education. Because when they put it in writing, they state things like “schools cannot treat students differently based on identity,” which ultimately would lead to the inability to provide any specialized funding. Because they don’t just say, “LGBTQ+” or “disabled” or “immigrant,” they just say based on identity. That could be low-SES, POC, gender, sexual orientation, disability, immigrant, you name it. And when we can’t provide equitable access based on identity, those with access will be those that align with the accepted identity.

They represented DEI as only representing trans/NB/LGBTQ/POC because they are counting on their base and the public in general to say, “well those lost protections only affect a few people.” (Generalizing here, but they certainly won’t tell people up front that no identity, now, can be equitably supported.) I am proud of the schools that have taken a stand and still have DEI commitments up. Because as schools have already found out, the goal posts will keep moving until suddenly, we have irreversibly ruined education in this country.

No federal student loans? Now private loans are not only exorbitantly expensive, but they also require credit checks that - surprise, surprise - will make attendance impossible for those of lower-SES. I struggled through college at Penn State, because I did not have a parent with good credit who could cosign for me. Despite working 20+ hours a week, maintaining a 4.0, and applying and receiving many scholarships, I nearly dropped out every year over anywhere from $2k-$4k. Every summer I’d run around with a pit in my stomach, unsure if I’d actually get to finish that degree.

It’s not about merit. It never was.

It’s easy to pretend that you’re just attacking diversity, equity, and inclusion policies, when really you’re unseating an entire system’s way to make that happen, including scholarships, disabled protections, etc. The end goal is to make it absolutely impossible for anyone deemed undesirable to access education and ultimately power. Scholarships and loans are at the heart of it, and I’m afraid to see this nightmare playing out as it has.
well said @indysadventures - the media is distracted and so fairly silent about the student loan impacts and all the ramifications of the DEI nonsense you mention, what a year to be accepted to vet school, I need to transition my decision-making to "best guess on ultimate cost" and "best guess on which schools will be least impacted by this nonsense" - and if you're inclined to be calling and emailing your representatives, while it feels good and is constructive, they don't really know what to say or do right now either, so use your time working on the spreadsheet you've likely made to help you decide where to go :annoyed:
 
Dublin could be straight forward because they don't rely on loans to fund their education system the same way. I wonder how the foreign schools feel; this will drastically influence how many US nationals will be students in the future.

Higher education relies heavily on the federal loan programs as a source of funding. Without federal student loans, they're all going to have to restructure. We might see a lot of program closures by the end of the summer before matriculation. And any new programs in the process? I bet those schools are now pumping those breaks (literally the only silver lining for vet med right now).
Yes, Dublin can be straight-forward because they don't rely on loans to fund their education system the same way. However, they said they are finding ways to work with our North American accepted students and they have acknowledged and been clear in writing. That deserves credit. It is March 25, clarity in writing from all the schools is needed - even if that means they write "we are working on this."
 
well said @indysadventures - the media is distracted and so fairly silent about the student loan impacts and all the ramifications of the DEI nonsense you mention, what a year to be accepted to vet school, I need to transition my decision-making to "best guess on ultimate cost" and "best guess on which schools will be least impacted by this nonsense" - and if you're inclined to be calling and emailing your representatives, while it feels good and is constructive, they don't really know what to say or do right now either, so use your time working on the spreadsheet you've likely made to help you decide where to go :annoyed:
I think there are many activists and politicians (and generally smaller or international news outlets) who are calling the DEI attacks for what they are, but unfortunately, I think that many schools have just chosen the “safe” route, only to see a new set of funding “requirements” arise. Or they thought they could just bend on DEI, calling it something else, only to find bills like Ohio Senate Bill 1 in the works that states that no DEI office can continue to run by any other name, no student organizations can be based on identity, and no assistance can be provided based on identity, etc.

1. Get rid of DEI
2. Right to protest, nah
3. End Department of Education’s ability to investigate civil rights infringements
4. Attacking funding from multiple angles and levels
5. ????

It’s just my opinion, but based on my own experiences, those schools willing to fight at Step 1 are more likely to find ways to protect all students as conditions worsen in the coming years. It’s all guesswork right now, but we have to utilize the information we have, including this….

Edited to add: I want to acknowledge that for many vet schools, their administration probably feels like their hands are tied by the larger university administration and/or state laws. Many may feel frustrated by their school’s actions. But as an incoming student, this is still a valid consideration, at least for me.
 
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TAMU just clapped back at the state of Texas, which I was super happy about, regarding Draggieland brunch. The state tried to cancel it and a judge in TX was like "yeah no, it's happening under the First Amendment." While I'm still anxious being in TX and seeing how things play out politically, I'm trying to stay positive: TAMU for IS is very cheap (comparatively), and the program is very well established and funded and respected. Also, from what I've experienced between talking with current/former students, their visiting day, and how communicative they are to questions, they care very much for their students and even have (or used to have) pronouns on their name tags. I'm focusing on the positive when I can. When all the evil overrides it, I remember that right now we are given the chance to pursue our dreams and our programs are going to be doing their best to help us through it - their livelihood is also at stake, and their faculty, staff, house officers, and patients matter to them a great deal.
 
TAMU just clapped back at the state of Texas, which I was super happy about, regarding Draggieland brunch. The state tried to cancel it and a judge in TX was like "yeah no, it's happening under the First Amendment." While I'm still anxious being in TX and seeing how things play out politically, I'm trying to stay positive: TAMU for IS is very cheap (comparatively), and the program is very well established and funded and respected. Also, from what I've experienced between talking with current/former students, their visiting day, and how communicative they are to questions, they care very much for their students and even have (or used to have) pronouns on their name tags. I'm focusing on the positive when I can. When all the evil overrides it, I remember that right now we are given the chance to pursue our dreams and our programs are going to be doing their best to help us through it - their livelihood is also at stake, and their faculty, staff, house officers, and patients matter to them a great deal.
I’m so happy to hear this! Schools in very red states have immeasurable challenges, because they’re stuck between an unsupportive or likely antagonistic state and their students. I know that for schools like tOSU and TAMU, etc, there’s got to be so many nuanced layers of red tape and challenges they must consider.

It sounds like you’re making the best choice that you can with the information you have. That’s all any of us can do.
 
So now knowing what we know with the "Big Beautiful Bill" having passed the Senate today and still up for review again with the House of Representatives, anybody have any insights, words of wisdom to offer? I'm an incoming student this fall and while I have taken many measures to protect myself financially, would be lying if the thought of having to take on private loans doesn't scare the living sh** out of me. TIA! 😬 😱🙃🤯😤😭
 
So now knowing what we know with the "Big Beautiful Bill" having passed the Senate today and still up for review again with the House of Representatives, anybody have any insights, words of wisdom to offer? I'm an incoming student this fall and while I have taken many measures to protect myself financially, would be lying if the thought of having to take on private loans doesn't scare the living sh** out of me. TIA! 😬 😱🙃🤯😤😭
Are you not grandfathered in as someone starting this year? My friend just started grad school this year in June and she was grandfathered in for grad plus, etc. I would check with your school, not sure.
 
Are you not grandfathered in as someone starting this year? My friend just started grad school this year in June and she was grandfathered in for grad plus, etc. I would check with your school, not sure.
I had heard things circulating in the news that being "grandfathered in" was still up for debate and whether or not they would add clause. I will have to double check but will be attending WSU-Pullman this fall as OOS with intentions to establish residency after the first year to qualify for in-state tuition. Just didn't know what people were hearing with this having passed and being breaking news and all...
 
I think this article from VIN is really helpful : Sigh, I hate that this is our life now

From its veterinary-focused information, it currently looks like the Class of 2029 will have full access to GradPLUS until June 30, 2029. Further, the discussed limits appear to be, at least from this article, applicable to us but only applicable to Direct Unsubsidized Loans - so, we would have generally unhindered access while the Class of 2030 and all beyond will get royally screwed.
 
I think this article from VIN is really helpful : Sigh, I hate that this is our life now

From its veterinary-focused information, it currently looks like the Class of 2029 will have full access to GradPLUS until June 30, 2029. Further, the discussed limits appear to be, at least from this article, applicable to us but only applicable to Direct Unsubsidized Loans - so, we would have generally unhindered access while the Class of 2030 and all beyond will get royally screwed.
Good to know. Glad to hear for y’all but really really ****ty situation overall.
 
So now knowing what we know with the "Big Beautiful Bill" having passed the Senate today and still up for review again with the House of Representatives, anybody have any insights, words of wisdom to offer? I'm an incoming student this fall and while I have taken many measures to protect myself financially, would be lying if the thought of having to take on private loans doesn't scare the living sh** out of me. TIA! 😬 😱🙃🤯😤😭
If you’re already accepted and starting this fall, it shouldn’t have a huge impact besides what repayment options you have. You’ll have IBR and the new RAP plan as income based repayment options after graduation. You should still get access to GradPlus loans for long enough to finish, as long as you don’t have to repeat any years or anything. Though technically the house does still have to go back and approve the senate’s version for the whole thing to formally pass.

If you’re a prospective applicant planning to apply this year or in the future, you really really really need to go to the cheapest school possible. Only apply to schools you can afford so you don’t have a heartbreaking decision later when you have an acceptance but no was to fund it all. Not many schools are under the grad school borrowing limit. I’d unfortunately tell someone to probably give up the dream (or at least put it off until a new administration can come in a change things again) if it means tens to hundreds of thousands in private loans, since those often don’t come with income-based repayment plans and interest rates can be predatory. I hate that this is going to essentially limit vet med to the wealthy, but I also don’t want people to face a lifetime of struggle paying back that much in private loans. I would suggest even more strongly than we always do to use tools that show what repayment looks like if you’re considering throwing private loans into the mix.

And we hope for change in the future.
 
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If you’re already accepted and starting this fall, it shouldn’t have a huge impact besides what repayment options you have. You’ll have IBR and the new RAP plan as income based repayment options after graduation. You should still get access to GradPlus loans for long enough to finish, as long as you don’t have to repeat any years or anything. Though technically the house does still have to go back and approve the senate’s version for the whole thing to formally pass.

If you’re a prospective applicant planning to apply this year or in the future, you really really really need to go to the cheapest school possible. Only apply to schools you can afford so you don’t have a heartbreaking decision later when you have an acceptance but no was to fund it all. Not many schools are under the grad school borrowing limit. I’d unfortunately tell someone to probably give up the dream (or at least put it off until a new administration can come in a change things again) if it means tens to hundreds of thousands in private loans, since those often don’t come with income-based repayment plans and interest rates can be predatory. I hate that this is going to essentially limit vet med to the wealthy, but I also don’t want people to face a lifetime of struggle paying back that much in private loans. I would suggest even more strongly than we always do to use tools that show what repayment looks like if you’re considering throwing private loans into the mix.

And we hope for change in the future.
It breaks my heart that this is the most important advice at this moment. It’s not fair, but truthfully I have seen the effects of private loans less than $20k on a friend’s life. They are predatory and it is very possible - every probable - that a bank will happily bankroll your first 2 years, then refuse to help anymore, leaving students with no degree and mountains of debt. Private banks don’t care.

Finally, anyone reading should know you should still pester your representatives!!! Tell them how much this matters. I don’t have hope it will matter……but it’s not over till it’s over.
 
Yeah I guess time will only tell what will happen or be the case...It just sucks because both the medical and veterinary fields already have shortages as is. Knowing there are going to be increasing number of barriers for the very people that are needed as doctors in either profession and should have a fighting chance is just incomprehensible. It will be interesting to see how individual universities respond and what measures they have at their disposal to put in place to combat what clearly is targeting marginalized groups. Smh I never thought we would ever get to this point...No good sittin' worryin' abou' it. What's comin' will come, an' we'll meet it when it does.” -Hagrid Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
 
Yeah I guess time will only tell what will happen or be the case...It just sucks because both the medical and veterinary fields already have shortages as is. Knowing there are going to be increasing number of barriers for the very people that are needed as doctors in either profession and should have a fighting chance is just incomprehensible. It will be interesting to see how individual universities respond and what measures they have at their disposal to put in place to combat what clearly is targeting marginalized groups. Smh I never thought we would ever get to this point...No good sittin' worryin' abou' it. What's comin' will come, an' we'll meet it when it does.” -Hagrid Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
*pops out from behind a tree stump*

Just your friendly neighborhood Indy popping in to say JKR is genuinely evil, and she now uses HP funds to directly fight the ability for trans people to live freely and exist in this world. She’s a heinous shell of a human being. I don’t believe we can ever really separate the art from the artist, and having given this series a critical reread, it hurts to see it there all along.

For the inevitability of sacrifice in the face of evil, may I offer you JRR Tolkien?

*sinks back into the ground*
 
because both the medical and veterinary fields already have shortages as is
We don't have a shortage of vets. We just don't have enough vets willing/able to work in rural and underserved areas for many, many legit reasons. The only people saying we are in a veterinary shortage are the people/institutions that stand to benefit from increasing class sizes and/or opening new vet schools. Or the people pushing for VPAs.

I'm not as well versed in the medical field of course, but it's my understanding they are in the same boat. There are a lot of doctors, and more coming every year, but that doesn't change the fact that no one wants to open a clinic in the most rural/underserved areas in this country.
 
*pops out from behind a tree stump*

Just your friendly neighborhood Indy popping in to say JKR is genuinely evil, and she now uses HP funds to directly fight the ability for trans people to live freely and exist in this world. She’s a heinous shell of a human being. I don’t believe we can ever really separate the art from the artist, and having given this series a critical reread, it hurts to see it there all along.

For the inevitability of sacrifice in the face of evil, may I offer you JRR Tolkien?

*sinks back into the ground*
Oh sorry I really didn't mean any harm by posting the quote tbh 🙃 I also want to be clear that I am in full support of DEI and LGBQT+ communities. And lol that thought has crossed my mind about reading JRR Tolkien but never have been able to get into it completely lol Currently more into Fourth Wing, etc. series rn. But thanks for suggestion and I'll be mindful of things moving forward 🙂
 
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Oh sorry I really didn't mean any harm by posting the quote tbh 🙃 And lol that thought has crossed my mind about reading JRR Tolkien but never have been able to get it completely lol Currently more into Fourth Wing, etc. series rn. But thanks for suggestion and I'll be mindful of things moving forward 🙂
It’s okay! I’m not calling you out, more so just taking every opportunity to hate on JKR. I do think it can be hard for the trans community to see people continue to admire the series when it now is actively funding their dehumanization. Just a little context. I know a couple indie bookstores I love have stopped carrying Harry Potter because they refuse to contribute to her anti-trans, HP-funded foundation, the Women’s Fund or whatever it’s called. Link
 
We don't have a shortage of vets. We just don't have enough vets willing/able to work in rural and underserved areas for many, many legit reasons. The only people saying we are in a veterinary shortage are the people/institutions that stand to benefit from increasing class sizes and/or opening new vet schools. Or the people pushing for VPAs.

I'm not as well versed in the medical field of course, but it's my understanding they are in the same boat. There are a lot of doctors, and more coming every year, but that doesn't change the fact that no one wants to open a clinic in the most rural/underserved areas in this country.
Thanks for the clarification--think where I was coming from was more or less based off of own personal experiences. I have worked at hospitals where I saw shortage of both doctors and support staff and the toll it took on their operation and quality of care provided.
 
Thanks for the clarification--think where I was coming from was more or less based off of own personal experiences. I have worked at hospitals where I saw shortage of both doctors and support staff and the toll it took on their operation and quality of care provided.
Support staff shortage is a crisis in this field and results in doctors not being able to do as much. That can absolutely look like 'Oh, we need more doctors to get through these appointments' when in reality you need more techs/assistants so the doctor doesn't have to do non-doctor work. A single doctor can do a lottttt when tech/assistant staffing is appropriate
 
Support staff shortage is a crisis in this field and results in doctors not being able to do as much. That can absolutely look like 'Oh, we need more doctors to get through these appointments' when in reality you need more techs/assistants so the doctor doesn't have to do non-doctor work. A single doctor can do a lottttt when tech/assistant staffing is appropriate

I bet corporate likes paying me 75/hr to mop, clean rooms, do butt baths, and... And... And... 🤣
 
I bet corporate likes paying me 75/hr to mop, clean rooms, do butt baths, and... And... And... 🤣
For real. And it's not a matter of being above a task or not willing to help the team (which some people absolutely interpret it as such), but I really don't have the time to clean a kennel when I've got 25 inpatients that all need owner update calls and treatment plan edits, there are 10 cases waiting to be seen and we're only one hour into the shift, and night shift left me a cat that needs to be unblocked and a dystocia with a puppy half hanging out, both just sitting in a kennel waiting for me. Oh, and all of the other day shift doctors called out already :laugh: (true story - one of my last Sunday shifts before I left for the zoo internship). If I am drawing blood, cleaning kennels, etc, the big stuff isn't getting done.
 
Though… I feel a major supply surplus in DVMs coming shortly with the economic downturn. The number of available DVM jobs have gone down steeply, and starting salaries are going down. In our metro area, relief vets are starting to have a hard time filling their schedules. Maybe it feels like we are extra hard hit because I’m in MA where all the higher education and NIH cuts are really affecting the local economy.

Something to think about… I graduated in a just starting to recover market, and it’s starting to remind me of that. 2009 - 2013 was a shiiiiiiiity time for especially new grad associates. I wonder if we are going to see a return to those horrific conditions. Hopefully not. When the job market is bad, employers tend to take advantage and treat their associates poorly, cause like… what are they going to do? They can’t leave because there aren’t any jobs, and they can’t leave the field because they are so in debt.
 
Though… I feel a major supply surplus in DVMs coming shortly with the economic downturn. The number of available DVM jobs have gone down steeply, and starting salaries are going down. In our metro area, relief vets are starting to have a hard time filling their schedules. Maybe it feels like we are extra hard hit because I’m in MA where all the higher education and NIH cuts are really affecting the local economy.

Something to think about… I graduated in a just starting to recover market, and it’s starting to remind me of that. 2009 - 2013 was a shiiiiiiiity time for especially new grad associates. I wonder if we are going to see a return to those horrific conditions. Hopefully not. When the job market is bad, employers tend to take advantage and treat their associates poorly, cause like… what are they going to do? They can’t leave because there aren’t any jobs, and they can’t leave the field because they are so in debt.

Yeah, I am feeling this. The atmosphere has very much changed from an employee driven market to slowly becoming very much employer driven. The jobs are much fewer and further between. The pay is still decent, but I can see it changing. And as more and more grads come out, I can see it becoming super saturated. Add in the whole VPA thing, it is going to be nightmarish.

If I could get out of the field, I would have done it already.
 
The number of available DVM jobs have gone down steeply, and starting salaries are going down. In our metro area, relief vets are starting to have a hard time filling their schedules

I'm at 75/hr as an ER doc in Denver and we have a ton of open DVM positions due to a mass exodus. According to our hospital town hall today, we have had 0 applicants. 🙄 Shocker. Relief also doesn't want to pick up shifts for us losing all these doctors since corporate cancelled their shifts they had previously been hired for in April and part of May.

2009 - 2013 was a shiiiiiiiity time for especially new grad associates.

I was worried about this around 2020-2022 and was happy then to see it not happen. But I agree. It's not looking great. And I'm worried for salaries being reduced for those that cannot make their production numbers
 
I'm at 75/hr as an ER doc in Denver and we have a ton of open DVM positions due to a mass exodus. According to our hospital town hall today, we have had 0 applicants. 🙄 Shocker. Relief also doesn't want to pick up shifts for us losing all these doctors since corporate cancelled their shifts they had previously been hired for in April and part of May.
Yeah… I think this is a your hospital problem… I would not work ER for 75/hr… I’m not sure I would work GP with that as base salary…
 
Yeah… I think this is a your hospital problem… I would not work ER for 75/hr… I’m not sure I would work GP with that as base salary…

My base salary as a baby doc in GP (21-22) was 90k, which ruffly comes down to 45/hr, plus production. I don't know what my production came out to since I was on mat leave for a chunk of my time there.

Also agree, we are the lowest paid ER docs in the area and we've had zero applications for associate docs (70-80/hr) or medical directors (80-110/hr). Part of that is our support staff is some of the best paid. Techs start at 30 and our lone VTS is at 40+. Assistants start at 20+. With that being said, they won't be able to hire at those rates and they won't keep those of us remaining at these rates either. All of us have asked for raises at this point.
 
My base salary as a baby doc in GP (21-22) was 90k, which ruffly comes down to 45/hr, plus production. I don't know what my production came out to since I was on mat leave for a chunk of my time there.

Also agree, we are the lowest paid ER docs in the area and we've had zero applications for associate docs (70-80/hr) or medical directors (80-110/hr). Part of that is our support staff is some of the best paid. Techs start at 30 and our lone VTS is at 40+. Assistants start at 20+. With that being said, they won't be able to hire at those rates and they won't keep those of us remaining at these rates either. All of us have asked for raises at this point.
I help new grads in my area with contract negotiations, and they typically get $150k for GP… and even as a baby vet in my first full year of GP ~10yrs ago I earned $140k even with a base of just $80k. I work relief shifts for $150/hr… to give you perspective. Denver ain’t a cheap area either… Not that everyone is made to drink the VEG koolaid, but have you talked to a VEG DVM in your area about how much they are getting paid as a benchmark for upper end of ER pay in your area?

Are you privy to your production numbers and the overall hospital production numbers? If they aren’t showing you in order to help you negotiate, that’s such a huge red flag. It’s good they’re paying the techs decently, but I wouldn’t take that as a reason for DVMs being paid little. I would need to see the breakdown of %DVM pay and %support staff pay of revenue before I buy that bull****.
 
My base salary as a baby doc in GP (21-22) was 90k, which ruffly comes down to 45/hr, plus production. I don't know what my production came out to since I was on mat leave for a chunk of my time there.

Also agree, we are the lowest paid ER docs in the area and we've had zero applications for associate docs (70-80/hr) or medical directors (80-110/hr). Part of that is our support staff is some of the best paid. Techs start at 30 and our lone VTS is at 40+. Assistants start at 20+. With that being said, they won't be able to hire at those rates and they won't keep those of us remaining at these rates either. All of us have asked for raises at this point.
Yeah so this is what led to the crumbling of my ER team, FYI, because we were the lowest paid ER in Tampa Bay. Out of my rotating in 2020, I started at 110k (no production, counter offers refused) with a $10k sign on bonus because that's what they gave all of their interns. I knew I could have gotten more elsewhere, but I was comfortable with my hospitals and didn't have to cut. By the end of 2021, they had bumped me several times, eventually up to $150k (no production).

The competing ERs had their vets on production and they were all well into $200k with that. Bluepearl REFUSED, absolutely REFUSED, to put ER vets on production for the Tampa market (until now, apparently). Other BP markets were on production. We would have been rolling in it if they did. For 2021, I calculated that I would have made $300k based off of 20% production. We all quit. Literally all but 3-4 of us left.

The hard part is whether or not the demand will continue to justify a higher salary. In peak COVID, as you know, it definitely did. If I were you, I would start interviewing elsewhere. Get the ball rolling. If you get a really good offer, take that back to your current clinic and say 'Hey, I do want to stay here, but it's getting difficult to make this work in this economy/for my family. If you can't meet this, I'm walking.' And mean it. At the end of the day, loyalty to a company/corporation is a one way street more often than not. I know you've loved it there, but at this point you are being taken advantage of. If they can't financially sustain an increased salary, then you need to be looking for a more secure position anyways.
 
Not that everyone is made to drink the VEG koolaid, but have you talked to a VEG DVM in your area about how much they are getting paid as a benchmark for upper end of ER pay in your area?

Oh, I'm made for the Kool aid 🤣 I had a call for them because they were opening a new hospital in my area (there's at least 5 now). They filled the open position with a long term locum the day before the call, but wanted to touch base anyways. They're scheduled to call me in September to check in. Their offer was 145+-150k base with 22-24% production. She told me the average income of a veg doc was 304k nation wide.

Are you privy to your production numbers and the overall hospital production numbers? If they aren’t showing you in order to help you negotiate, that’s such a huge red flag. It’s good they’re paying the techs decently, but I wouldn’t take that as a reason for DVMs being paid little. I would need to see the breakdown of %DVM pay and %support staff pay of revenue before I buy that bull****.

The town hall yesterday had a break down of all of this. And, to be fair, our middle hospital is not doing well overall. Like, objectively doing poorly. A lot of it is we were built in the wrong place socioeconomically. I took a screenshot and attached it. The first 3 columns are the individual hospitals, then the 4th column is all of them combined.

They tell us they won't close our broken hospital. Maybe they won't. They're re-evaluating the pricing structure and using our estimates to see what truly gets declined and doesn't. I think they're likely to close it though at some point, cause the financials they'd have to change would be drastic and I don't think they're willing to cut it down that far.

Yeah so this is what led to the crumbling of my ER team, FYI, because we were the lowest paid ER in Tampa Bay. Out of my rotating in 2020, I started at 110k (no production, counter offers refused) with a $10k sign on bonus because that's what they gave all of their interns. I knew I could have gotten more elsewhere, but I was comfortable with my hospitals and didn't have to cut. By the end of 2021, they had bumped me several times, eventually up to $150k (no production).

The competing ERs had their vets on production and they were all well into $200k with that. Bluepearl REFUSED, absolutely REFUSED, to put ER vets on production for the Tampa market (until now, apparently). Other BP markets were on production. We would have been rolling in it if they did. For 2021, I calculated that I would have made $300k based off of 20% production. We all quit. Literally all but 3-4 of us left.

The hard part is whether or not the demand will continue to justify a higher salary. In peak COVID, as you know, it definitely did. If I were you, I would start interviewing elsewhere. Get the ball rolling. If you get a really good offer, take that back to your current clinic and say 'Hey, I do want to stay here, but it's getting difficult to make this work in this economy/for my family. If you can't meet this, I'm walking.' And mean it. At the end of the day, loyalty to a company/corporation is a one way street more often than not. I know you've loved it there, but at this point you are being taken advantage of. If they can't financially sustain an increased salary, then you need to be looking for a more secure position anyways.

Been talking to people and networking, and used that info to submit for a raise last week. One ER is currently actively hiring in the area, though, and about a 40 mile drive, so not doable. I absolutely do not want to go into gp if I can avoid it. Those of us left have checked with the other ers in the area and they aren't looking to fill any positions right now.

But I did check the urgent cares and gps that do an urgent care doctor. Found that they all offer 140k as "entry" level without the overnights. So I do have that rolling. My goal honestly for the raise is to cover student loans for whenever I have to start paying them again.

I do hear what y'all are saying, truly. I've talked to the husband about this constantly since everything started going down in May. One big onus for waiting is my 401k being fully vested with me in October. I'd lose somewhere between 8-10k by leaving now vs in late October or November. If it was just mine, it would be less concerning. But my 401k will cover us both in the long run.
 
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