Current Views of Chiropractic; What Do You See?

[SpecterGT260]

Well, I am sure your parents would brag about you to others and want to think of their child as smarter.. it is a parent thing...especially when one has academic achievement to back the assertion.

Since the overwhelming majority of people in "pre-med" are in their late teens to early 20's, I will make the leap to say they haven't had many life experiences and "think" they know what they want in life. Some of the most dissatisfied physicians I know "thought" they knew what being a doctor was going to be like.. but when you are young, you really do not have much knowledge of the working world and realities of careers, and at that age, why would you?

So, yes, most pre-med's (which is every other student you talk to on a college campus, but somehow very few ever make it to med school), don't have a conviction for any career path, but base their decisions on family pressures, financial gain, pop culture, or some other intangible reason..not because they would give their left leg to help "cure the world" of disease. Many people think they use their rational mind for these sort of decisions, but in actuality have already made up their mind from their subconscious (due to these other influences) and try to logically reason with their self and attempt to make that decision seem rational.

Lastly, I think your input is an important as any other, but being "pre-med".. maybe you should wait until you at least get into med school before you throw your two cents into a question which was clearly asking medical professionals about the current view of another healthcare field. Not to be rude, but as a pre-med, you hold very little weight in any legitimate argument concerning matters like this. Maybe you should stick to the MCAT forum, and the "which med school should I apply to" chats. You, et al, like to bash me, ..the only person posted here who has practiced and has direct knowledge on both careers. This is like someone without children telling a parent how to raise their child. Maybe it is your self imposed inferiority of someone with more knowledge that threatens you, who knows, I am not a psychiatrist. If my assumptions are "elitist" to you, maybe this is only a perception from someone who already feels below standard, considering a "pre-med" student is wanting to start an argument with someone with two doctorate degrees, a MBA, (with my MD and MBA being from an elitist level school)...and board certified in neurology.

I wish you good luck in your endeavors, and I would like to let you know.. if you get into medical school.. and get a residency.. there is a pecking order. You need to remember your place in this and understand that people who earn their way through, don't take kindly to people below them who think they are so smart and know everything. But, if you ever make it that far, let me know..I am sure we can revisit these chats and in your new found wisdom will understand.

What does this have to do with anything? GTLO annihilated your response without trying to get a rise out of you like I was and... its a parent thing? And a lack of experience thing?

His original point was hyperbolic but still valid. Without physicians people would die at an accelerated rate from either acute illness or progressive uncontrolled disease. Without chiropractors, at best people would be defending their next best fit placebo provider. At worst people would have slightly (on average) sorer backs, but would be up to date in vaccines chiropractic is not a vital service.

Go ahead. Tell me that I am too dumb to reproduce now instead of providing anything that may stand as a counterpoint. You have already ignored me when I hinted that your posts speak as someone who skimmed the book on what med education is without ever having actually lived it.... If you're interested we can address these things rather than continue to deflect such statements leading me (and I am sure others) to just assume you are a chiropractor who took advantage of the anonymity of the internet to come across as a physician chiropractic apologeticist

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[DCMBAMD]

What does this have to do with anything? GTLO annihilated your response without trying to get a rise out of you like I was and... its a parent thing? And a lack of experience thing?

His original point was hyperbolic but still valid. Without physicians people would die at an accelerated rate from either acute illness or progressive uncontrolled disease. Without chiropractors, at best people would be defending their next best fit placebo provider. At worst people would have slightly (on average) sorer backs, but would be up to date in vaccines chiropractic is not a vital service.



Go ahead. Tell me that I am too dumb to reproduce now instead of providing anything that may stand as a counterpoint. You have already ignored me when I hinted that your posts speak as someone who skimmed the book on what med education is without ever having actually lived it.... If you're interested we can address these things rather than continue to deflect such statements leading me (and I am sure others) to just assume you are a chiropractor who took advantage of the anonymity of the internet to come across as a physician chiropractic apologeticist


However, I sent you a PM, please check. Thanks!
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You have not read that I haven't argued against many points.. I think many of these chiro idiots you all speak of is the problem with the profession. But, I can tell you that chiro has it's place. Would the world continue without it?. Yes, the same as without dentistry, optometry, and many medical specialties. This argument is one that had nothing to do with anything I have spoke to, so I believe it is you sir, who are go off on some tangent.

 

[facetguy]

His original point was hyperbolic but still valid. Without physicians people would die at an accelerated rate from either acute illness or progressive uncontrolled disease. Without chiropractors, at best people would be defending their next best fit placebo provider. At worst people would have slightly (on average) sorer backs, but would be up to date in vaccines chiropractic is not a vital service.

Well, in fairness we'd need to qualify your statement a bit. In reality, without certain physicians people would die at an accelerated rate blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure any physicians doing primarily cosmetic procedures wouldn't count. Pain guys don't save many lives. PM&R same thing. Heck, much of primary care could be taken over by NPs and PAs. CRNAs could do the gas. And PTs...forget about it.

Obviously I'm being over-the-top because all of these folks, while they might not be saving lives, serve an important role. So do chiropractors. And, no, you don't get to speak for all those chiropractic patients out there.

 

[IlDestriero]

I

Well, in fairness we'd need to qualify your statement a bit. In reality, without certain physicians people would die at an accelerated rate blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure any physicians doing primarily cosmetic procedures wouldn't count. Pain guys don't save many lives. PM&R same thing. Heck, much of primary care could be taken over by NPs and PAs. CRNAs could do the gas. And PTs...forget about it.

Obviously I'm being over-the-top because all of these folks, while they might not be saving lives, serve an important role. So do chiropractors. And, no, you don't get to speak for all those chiropractic patients out there.

The thought that you would place an Anesthesiologist in the same category as a chiropractor is comical. Your ignorance is boundless. Call me when your kid needs a liver transplant and I'll show you what the score is. Maybe we'll let the CRNA do it. At least it would be short.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You have not read that I haven't argued against many points.. I think many of these chiro idiots you all speak of is the problem with the profession. But, I can tell you that chiro has it's place. Would the world continue without it?. Yes, the same as without dentistry, optometry, and many medical specialties. This argument is one that had nothing to do with anything I have spoke to, so I believe it is you sir, who are go off on some tangent.

No.... you called out gettheleadout over a post that was not directed at you. This is your tangent. Own it, big guy

Well, in fairness we'd need to qualify your statement a bit. In reality, without certain physicians people would die at an accelerated rate blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure any physicians doing primarily cosmetic procedures wouldn't count. Pain guys don't save many lives. PM&R same thing. Heck, much of primary care could be taken over by NPs and PAs. CRNAs could do the gas. And PTs...forget about it.

Obviously I'm being over-the-top because all of these folks, while they might not be saving lives, serve an important role. So do chiropractors. And, no, you don't get to speak for all those chiropractic patients out there.

It isn't exactly worthwhile to nitpick my post, which reiterated someone else's point, which was called out via a personal attack and then the retort deflected by claiming life experience and "parental issues".

Most arguments are not 100% air tight. Try to identify when the argument you see is a statement of position vs a rationale for why another argument doesn't hold up.
In other words, pointing out a problem in a post which is pointing out a problem in another doesn't, by any form of necessity, disprove the problem in the original post

 

[DCMBAMD]

DCMBA,

I think you just agreed with me. I said that national DC standards are not inclusive of evidence based care subjects except some differential diagnosis coverage (often permissive of premature diagnosis) and several false biomechanical subluxation diagnosis/correction methods that are taught concurrently.

Medical standards mandate treatment coverage and don't let schools do their own thing.

My next point was that you can't even say the mixer oriented schools were banning quackery because the accreditation guidelines are so permissive. They sell whatever is popular.

Bringing up quackery in medicine is a "two wrongs don't make a right" fallacy.
http://stevencwatts.newsvine.com/_n...logical-fallacies-101-two-wrongs-make-a-right
Tolerating woo isn't right no matter what the field.

Frankly DCMBA I don't know how you can live with yourself. Think of all the people who are dying from subluxations because you aren't practicing as a chiropractor. How can you be so selfish?

Yes, I did agree. Chiro school standards are very low, but do offer a good course of basic science study and diagnostic courses. There are a few (3-4) chiro schools that seem to teach on the MD level, but the majority do not. In med school, anatomy, physiology, micro, and neuro were about the same. Path, of course pharm, and other courses were well beyond what chiro did. Learning how to perform exams in med school was a joke compared to chiro school however.. but, I must say that in med school you have 2 years of rotations and residency to refine those skills.

As far as your vast experience in med school.. the basic science curriculum may be close in each school, the clinical experiences vary. Some have clinics, community hospitals, the VA, or large metropolitan hospitals. Some have attendings that allow students to do a lot, others you will never touch a patient. There may be only 2 students with the preceptor, there could be 20. Some surgical rotations are balls to the wall, others you are out by lunch. I delivered 12 babies, my buddy never even watched a delivery. I got to assist on C-sections, he wasn't allowed in the room for PAPs. He spent more time in the OR in a week than I did in 12 weeks during surgery. There is not much consistency between schools, except for your core rotation specialties. Maybe when you get there, you will see.

Also, bringing up quackery isn't two wrongs don't make a right. It is showing the HYPOCRISY you display. It is like a doctor putting out his cigarette and then telling a patient they should stop smoking. Look at the profession you are protecting for similar flaws before bashing another.. please.

Yes.. many people are slowing dying from subluxation.. but, I justify it by chatting with intelligent and misguided people on here... oh yeah, and by treating all the stroke, pain, NM disease patients, etc.. that I see everyday. By the way.. I would like you to talk to all these MD radiologist out there who keep sending me MRI reads stating subluxation of the spinal vertebrae each week. They have been sucked into the quackery!

 

[facetguy]

The thought that you would place an Anesthesiologist in the same category as a chiropractor is comical. Your ignorance is boundless. Call me when your kid needs a liver transplant and I'll show you what the score is.

The CRNA thing touched a nerve, I see.

As I stated, I was being "over the top", meaning purposely not 100% on the mark to illustrate a point. Of course the anesthesiologist's place in the world is preserved. Fear not, Ether Man.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The thought that you would place an Anesthesiologist in the same category as a chiropractor is comical. Your ignorance is boundless. Call me when your kid needs a liver transplant and I'll show you what the score is.

Yeah.... I was on the fence about going down this rabbit hole but.... its winter break and what the hell

CRNA's can handle the gas in the same way that the surgeon or anyone in the operating suite could handle the gas. Anesthesiologists are there own worse enemies here because the systems that control the anesthesia are very highly automated, most people (the vast majority of people) can be easily put under, kept under, and brought back with a fairly wide therapeutic window meaning there is additional room for error, and the rate of reactions and adverse effects is quite low.

But... (and this is a big but. Think Tyler Perry's "The butt in the argument") should something go wrong in really any capacity the CRNA will still know exactly as much as the surgeon or whomever else happens to be nearby. The technical term for this amount of knowledge is "egesta". The whole notion of reducing the level of expertise and training in healthcare is a product of naivete. My highschool classmates will occasionally tell me that medicine isn't really that hard or take that much because their community college bio class was easy. These are the people pushing for lowering the bar.

 

[cdmguy]

Yes.. many people are slowing dying from subluxation.. but, I justify it by chatting with intelligent and misguided people on here... oh yeah, and by treating all the stroke, pain, NM disease patients, etc.. that I see everyday. By the way.. I would like you to talk to all these MD radiologist out there who keep sending me MRI reads stating subluxation of the spinal vertebrae each week. They have been sucked into the quackery!

This is why I would never see a MD with a DC degree. I classify them at the same level as MDs who practice homeopathy or Reiki. Most never completely get over the indoctrination.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Also, bringing up quackery isn't two wrongs don't make a right. It is showing the HYPOCRISY you display. It is like a doctor putting out his cigarette and then telling a patient they should stop smoking. Look at the profession you are protecting for similar flaws before bashing another.. please.

Yes.. many people are slowing dying from subluxation.. but, I justify it by chatting with intelligent and misguided people on here... oh yeah, and by treating all the stroke, pain, NM disease patients, etc.. that I see everyday. By the way.. I would like you to talk to all these MD radiologist out there who keep sending me MRI reads stating subluxation of the spinal vertebrae each week. They have been sucked into the quackery!

I think we found an example
Slowly dying? Cite a source please... this is exactly what I was talking about.... subluxation is an ill-defined term of the chiro world that many within it can't even agree on..... and you are willing to throw your chips in saying such things will eventually kill? Lemme guess.... it takes ~100 years to get you, right?

 

[SpecterGT260]

This is why I would never see a MD with a DC degree. I classify them at the same level as MDs who practice homeopathy or Reiki.

Mercola is basically Jesus with a better hair-do

 

[facetguy]

Mercola is basically Jesus with a better hair-do

Wait. Are saying Mercola has better hair than Jesus?

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Well, in fairness we'd need to qualify your statement a bit. In reality, without certain physicians people would die at an accelerated rate blah blah blah. I'm pretty sure any physicians doing primarily cosmetic procedures wouldn't count. Pain guys don't save many lives. PM&R same thing. Heck, much of primary care could be taken over by NPs and PAs. CRNAs could do the gas. And PTs...forget about it.

Obviously I'm being over-the-top because all of these folks, while they might not be saving lives, serve an important role. So do chiropractors. And, no, you don't get to speak for all those chiropractic patients out there.

I've been reading this train wreck of a thread for a while now but had to comment on this particularly disingenuous statement. When people have stated that the world would be worse off without physicians, the obvious meaning is that people would be worse off without evidence based medical care, rather than quackery like chiropracterism or whatever it's called. Your argument that auxiliary health care personnel are capable of providing much of that evidence based medical care is completely irrelevant in this context.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Wait. Are saying Mercola has better hair than Jesus?

I'm saying.... a lot more than was actually typed out.....

 

[facetguy]

I've been reading this train wreck of a thread for a while now but had to comment on this particularly disingenuous statement. When people have stated that the world would be worse off without physicians, the obvious meaning is that people would be worse off without evidence based medical care, rather than quackery like chiropracterism or whatever it's called. Your argument that auxiliary health care personnel are capable of providing much of that evidence based medical care is completely irrelevant in this context.

The scenario as I tongue-in-cheekly envisioned it was that if a giant space craft were to land on Earth and little green men came out and wiped out selected physicians, and then the rest of us would have to somehow survive from that day forward, "auxiliary health care personnel" as you say would have to do the job. It wouldn't be ideal but they'd be able to step in a pick up a lot of the slack.

Dude, it's a goofy obviously-fake scenario. There are no aliens...........that I'm aware of.

(Although, NPs are positioning themselves to take over much of primary care. That much is true. And before you ask, No. NPs are not aliens.)

 

[facetguy]

I'm saying.... a lot more than was actually typed out.....

OK then. Because Jesus had some pretty strong hair. And Mercola is more or less bereft in that department.

 

[cdmguy]

I wouldn't bet on that. The Romans, who were quite good looking probably due to the widespread practice of infanticide on weak babies (which the Jews couldn't do because of the sixth commandment), could easily have reinterpreted him in their image, similar to their known practice of adopting pagan holidays and messiah myths. It was 300 years after his death and nobody who saw him would have still been alive. And male pattern baldness is common in Jews.

 

[DCMBAMD]

I think we found an example
Slowly dying? Cite a source please... this is exactly what I was talking about.... subluxation is an ill-defined term of the chiro world that many within it can't even agree on..... and you are willing to throw your chips in saying such things will eventually kill? Lemme guess.... it takes ~100 years to get you, right?

My God.. you are so blinded by making a useless point that you can't recognize sarcasm when you see it.. hahaha what you a joke.

 

[DCMBAMD]

I'm sorry I got into this conversation with a bunch of people who are doctor want-to-be's.. It is like arguing with a know it all teenager..

Good luck to all...

 

[Sephiroth]

And male pattern baldness is common in Jews.

source?

 

[cdmguy]

It's phenotypic-anyone who has spent time with Ashkenazi jews would notice it.

http://www.haaretz.com/why-are-israeli-men-going-bald-so-early-1.1435

"We lose hair all of our lives, it's a sign of aging," explains Dr. Alex Ginzburg, a dermatologist and hair-transplant specialist. Male pattern balding may be a natural and universal phenomenon, but he claims it is particularly severe among Jews. "Just as Jews tend to have bigger noses, we have a strong tendency toward baldness. Generally speaking, Jews - especially of Ashkenazi descent - tend to go bald more than Christians and Muslims."

I wouldn't be surprised if balding Jewish priests didn't start the tradition of wearing yarmulkes (skull caps) thousands of years ago to cover them up and then justified it as an order from God.

 

[cdmguy]

My God.. you are so blinded by making a useless point that you can't recognize sarcasm when you see it.. hahaha what you a joke.

Is your next trick going to be to defend faith healing and snake handling?

 

[facetguy]

Is your next trick going to be to defend faith healing and snake handling?

Let's not forget that you aren't even qualified to be in these discussions. You were briefly a chiropractor, what, 20 years ago before you failed/quit? And you find it appropriate to mock a guy who has been a DC and is currently an actively-practicing MD?

The only thing you bring to the table is a gigantic grudge that you hold against the chiropractic profession, one that clearly disallows you from being anything even approaching objective. (At least that's the external presentation you've created; I think deep inside you feel differently but that's just my hunch.)

 

[cdmguy]

I have the exact same degree and board certifications you do, probably more-so because I passed the fourth national board exam which wasn't around when you licensed. This board does not discriminate based on length of time spent practicing and because chiropractic is woo it doesn't matter anyway. Would you like me to start a thread about the woo that constitutes chiropractic continuing education? Let's see there's acupuncture, chiropractic subluxation quackery, naturopathic woo... I was licensed in five states and actively practiced in four until I retired after working in four offices-all who were doing unethical practices. So criticize me and you are criticizing yourself and your profession.

But I do agree with SDN's refusing to recognize chiropractors here. You may be able to post but don't mistake that for thinking that people take you seriously. You're academic level has been likened to a high school student by one poster and I agree with him. Most chiropractors would be driving trucks if they didn't have licenses-that's the academic level of the average chiropractor.

One reason why I cite so much is that I want people to judge my arguments on their own merit, not on some bogus title conferred on me by a bunch of quacks.

 

[facetguy]

I have the exact same degree and board certifications you do, probably more-so because I passed the fourth national board exam which wasn't around when you licensed. This board does not discriminate based on length of time spent practicing and because chiropractic is woo it doesn't matter anyway. I was licensed in four states and actively practiced in three. So criticize me and you are criticizing yourself.

Dude, you've been completely out of the loop for so many years now. No post-grad. No keeping up with the literature (obviously). No patient interaction. Barely any clinical experience beyond what you've admitted was a less than optimal experience at Life.

Yet you somehow feel you're in a position to denigrate those of us who've been in the trenches for many years now, who stay current, who know what it's like to treat patients?

All you've got are your bad memories from over a decade ago, complaint letters you've written, scattered examples of bad behavior on the part of a few chiropractors, former-chiro website buddies who only enable each other, and baseless accusations that never stand up to scrutiny (but sure sound good on the surface).

Seriously, when do you move on in life? Next year? In 10 years? Never?

 

[SpecterGT260]

My God.. you are so blinded by making a useless point that you can't recognize sarcasm when you see it.. hahaha what you a joke.

mmmmmmyes, what me a joke indeed

For all of your claims, I would have assumed you would also know that sarcasm doesn't translate well in type. That is why they gave us things like: .

I just find you exceptionally dim and you attack people over irrelevancies while making points that are either exceedingly careless or simply misinformed. So.... you know... we could actually argue points, but if you want to continue making personal attacks at anyone who disagrees with you while PMing me to tell me that I am a college student bound to be a HS bio teacher.... well, Mr. Doctor Doctor, that is you prerogative

 

[cdmguy]

Game on

Chiropractic continuing education credit examples from two colleges. Sherman is straight, Logan is mixer.

http://www.sherman.edu/continuing-education/seminars.asp

Chiropractic Continuing Education Seminars for License Renewal
The college offers postdoctoral programs and seminars for the purpose of license renewal in most states. The programs are conducted by Sherman College faculty and other well-known and respected chiropractors and extension faculty.
Contact Roberta Thomas ([email protected]) at 800-849-8771 ext. 227 toll free or 864-587-8770 ext. 227 for more information / registration.
JANUARY 2013
January 12-13 Baby Spines - Analysis & Adjusting Techniques 12 San Fransciso, CA www.FreeCE.org
Ron Castellucci, DC 888-792-5387
State Approvals
January 17-20 Network Spinal Analysis 23 Denver, CO wiseworldseminars.com
Intermediate-Advanced Care Intensive or call (303) 678-8086 FREE
Donald Epstein, DC State Approvals
January 25-26 The Science Behind Chiropractic & Vertebral Subluxation: 12 Las Vegas, NV chiropassionconsulting.com
Beyond the Basics (315) 699-1441 FREE x25
Joseph Borio, DC State Approvals
January 26-27 Koren Specific Technique 16 Ft. Lauderdale, FL teddkorenseminars.com
Tedd Koren, DC 800-537-3001
State Approvals
January 26-27 Free CE Association (FCEA) 12 Costa Mesa, CA www.FreeCE.org
Holding the Adjustment 888-792-5387
Ed Sinclair DC State Approvals
January 31 CE B4 DE - Georgia Council of Chiropractic 5 Atlanta, GA 678-667-4567
various speakers www.georgiachiropractic.org

and

http://www.logan.edu/alumni-donor/postgraduate-department/programs

Logan College of Chiropractic/Programs

Certificate and Certification Programs

Acupuncture
Advanced Acupuncture
Auriculotherapy
Certified Chiropractic Posture Therapy Specialist
Chiropractic Craniopathy
Chiropractic Neurology
Chiropractic Nutrition Specialist
Chiropractic Sports Physician (CCSP)
D.O.T. Seminars
Insurance Consultant/Peer Review
Internal Health Specialist
Laser Therapy Certification
Logan Basic Technique
Pediatric Certification Program
Rehab Certificate Program
The Missouri Required Hours
Unique Options - Special Program
Whole Food Nutrition
Whiplash Certification

Yeah good stuff there, if you're a quack.

Seriously, when do you move on in life? Next year? In 10 years? Never?

Certified CNIM prior to disability.
Disabled = serious limiting illness expected > 1 yr.

 

[evilbooyaa]

mmmmmmyes, what me a joke indeed

For all of your claims, I would have assumed you would also know that sarcasm doesn't translate well in type. That is why they gave us things like: .

I just find you exceptionally dim and you attack people over irrelevancies while making points that are either exceedingly careless or simply misinformed. So.... you know... we could actually argue points, but if you want to continue making personal attacks at anyone who disagrees with you while PMing me to tell me that I am a college student bound to be a HS bio teacher.... well, Mr. Doctor Doctor, that is you prerogative

Reading comprehension is not strong in the former DC.... If he's read any of your other posts outside of this thread it would be glaringly obviuos that you are a current med student.

DCMBAMD, I won't say that you are not a MD, but there is something very odd about your posts. You say you're an MD, but you denigrate the MD profession and whole-heartedly support the DC profession and it's importance. If you truly are a MD, then shouldn't you have learned about how most things you learned in your DC education are at odds, in terms of treatment and efficacy? It seems like you haven't, and claim that since you are both a DC and MD, you have the authority to claim that they are on equal or close to equal footing

Just my 2 cents. I will say that I am at a middle ground between facetguy and cdmguy. I think facet believes that since he knows of no problematic chiropractors (without necessarily knowing everything that goes on in each of their practices) that none of them are like that. On the other hand, cdmguy quotes statistics about the prevalence of some negative things that chiropractors do, and thus think that everyone is like them.

 

[cdmguy]

Just my 2 cents. I will say that I am at a middle ground between facetguy and cdmguy. I think facet believes that since he knows of no problematic chiropractors (without necessarily knowing everything that goes on in each of their practices) that none of them are like that. On the other hand, cdmguy quotes statistics about the prevalence of some negative things that chiropractors do, and thus think that everyone is like them.

EB,

Have you ever heard of the Fallacy of the Middle? I think this is the argument you just made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam; also known as [argument from] middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy)[1] is an informal fallacy which asserts that the truth can be found as a compromise between two opposite positions. This fallacy's opposite is the false dilemma.

Have you read chiropractic laws? What are they based on? Subluxation diagnosis for the vast majority. Is subluxation a real condition? No. Therefore the majority of chiropractors treat a nonexistent condition.

http://www.chiropractic.org/?p=legislation/state_statutes

The differences between the two straight/mixer factions just comes down to treatment selection. Mixers add naturopathy and PT, straights oppose it.

This article shows the mixer/straight DCs both share common quackery elements.
ACA and ICA: It's the Same Thing!

It's that simple. There is no such thing as evidence based chiropractic. That's why the NACM failed as a national organization (already discussed).

 

[SpecterGT260]

Reading comprehension is not strong in the former DC.... If he's read any of your other posts outside of this thread it would be glaringly obviuos that you are a current med student.

DCMBAMD, I won't say that you are not a MD, but there is something very odd about your posts. You say you're an MD, but you denigrate the MD profession and whole-heartedly support the DC profession and it's importance. If you truly are a MD, then shouldn't you have learned about how most things you learned in your DC education are at odds, in terms of treatment and efficacy? It seems like you haven't, and claim that since you are both a DC and MD, you have the authority to claim that they are on equal or close to equal footing

Just my 2 cents. I will say that I am at a middle ground between facetguy and cdmguy. I think facet believes that since he knows of no problematic chiropractors (without necessarily knowing everything that goes on in each of their practices) that none of them are like that. On the other hand, cdmguy quotes statistics about the prevalence of some negative things that chiropractors do, and thus think that everyone is like them.

He might be. Either way, it is a non issue. It would be pretty easy to claim such and even provide info to that effect (it is all public record, so just search a doctor and you get get license info in about 2 seconds) but that isnt the point. Either he is faking it which would explain the inaccuracies and other BS in his posts, as well as his oh so becoming behavior, or he really is a DC turned MD, but having attended medical school in the 90s... I... I mean... we are all aware that standards were much more lax back then (Not saying that doctors from that era are bad, just that the bad ones can be exceptionally bad )

I like your last paragraph. I actually tend to be middle of the road too. I have said numerous times that chiropractic likely has some utility. My problems with it are:

1. based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the human body (Subluxations) which obscures said utility
2. extended inappropriately to treat conditions which have no connection to the mechanism (GI, allergies, even asthma) which further obscures its utility
3. Adherent to alternative principles which opens the door to distract patients from seeking real treatments or pressure them away from necessary health provisions (vaccines, for example).

The fact that only a portion (majority? Minority? whatever) of the profession is guilty of these things is irrelevant. The DCs should be self-policing and should be their own strongest critics. As an example, the "Occupy Wall Street" movement fell to pieces after the hippie drummers showed up. A movement that had purpose and may have had an impact could no longer be taken seriously because of the subset of crazies that they associated with. DC is the same way. Any and all benefits that could be had are washed out by the inclusion and endorsement of pseudoscientific nonsense. If I were to have back pain I would go see a DC myself if it weren't for the fact that I find a significant portion of their doctrine to be intellectually insulting. If they could cut the crap (and honestly, universally adopt Facet's opinions and positions with the exception of his opinion that not directly causing harm is equivalent to causing no harm - a statement that I strongly disagree with) I, and many other future/current physicians could take them more seriously.

are you guys familiar with this site? http://www.quackwatch.org/
it is outstanding... except it was put together by an old fogey who doesn't really know how to work the internet making the site look a little jank. But the info is awesome.

 

[SpecterGT260]

EB,

Have you ever heard of the Fallacy of the Middle? I think this is the argument you just made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation



Have you read chiropractic laws? What are they based on? Subluxation diagnosis for the vast majority. Is subluxation a real condition? No. Therefore the majority of chiropractors treat a nonexistent condition.

http://www.chiropractic.org/?p=legislation/state_statutes

The differences between the two straight/mixer factions just comes down to treatment selection. Mixers add naturopathy and PT, straights oppose it.

This article shows the mixer/straight DCs both share common quackery elements.
ACA and ICA: It's the Same Thing!

It's that simple. There is no such thing as evidence based chiropractic. That's why the NACM failed as a national organization.

I disagree. He stated his own personal opinion/position. He didn't offer his position up as an argument stating that either of your positions were false. He directly addressed the issue and perceived logical fault he found in both yours and facet's positions. No fallacy was committed.

I don't think his point denied that such mixers are quack fests. Just that some DCs are guilty of it, some aren't. I would still maintain that much of the physiology they tout is simply made up and contradictory to everything modern science knows (understand, I said "Contradictory", not "unknown", a very important distinction to make, however drawing conclusions based on things we don't know, as many alternativists are apt to do, is only a sliver less dumb than drawing conclusions towards things we know to be false) but I think their adherence to the false phys is due to jealous protection of their art. Many of them come out believing what they were told in their schooling, and I find this unfortunate, but I think if they were to go evidence based it would result in many of their modalities being thrown out and their scope so severely restricted as to make chiropractic nonviable as a sole career.

 

[cdmguy]

Fair enough about the fallacy. I wasn't sure and I thought I'd mention it just in case since he didn't provide concrete data supporting his position.

I don't think his point denied that such mixers are quack fests. Just that some DCs are guilty of it, some aren't. I would still maintain that much of the physiology they tout is simply made up and contradictory to everything modern science knows (understand, I said "Contradictory", not "unknown", a very important distinction to make, however drawing conclusions based on things we don't know, as many alternativists are apt to do, is only a sliver less dumb than drawing conclusions towards things we know to be false) but I think their adherence to the false phys is due to jealous protection of their art. Many of them come out believing what they were told in their schooling, and I find this unfortunate, but I think if they were to go evidence based it would result in many of their modalities being thrown out and their scope so severely restricted as to make chiropractic nonviable as a sole career.

Exactly, the market drives practices. We hear that again and again at Chirotalk, quackery is the only way to earn a living as a chiropractor-whether it be upselling a rehab patient into a lifetime manipulation program sold as "preventing osteoarthritis" (best mixer case) or treating a kid for autism by manipulating their neck and putting them on a restrictive diet (typical straight DC).

 

[facetguy]

Reading comprehension is not strong in the former DC.... If he's read any of your other posts outside of this thread it would be glaringly obviuos that you are a current med student.

DCMBAMD, I won't say that you are not a MD, but there is something very odd about your posts. You say you're an MD, but you denigrate the MD profession and whole-heartedly support the DC profession and it's importance. If you truly are a MD, then shouldn't you have learned about how most things you learned in your DC education are at odds, in terms of treatment and efficacy? It seems like you haven't, and claim that since you are both a DC and MD, you have the authority to claim that they are on equal or close to equal footing

You're missing a key point here. Many chiropractors don't espouse the nonsense often associated (particularly here on SDN) with chiros. We take a much more contemporary view and are not at odds with the modern world. Therefore, there is no conflict with what one might learn in medical school. You are making the assumption that it's one or the other, DC or MD, and that the DC model is always automatically wrong. That's not the way to look at it however. And, if you think about it, the DCs who go on to MD school aren't the types of DCs that cdmguy likes to say comprise the entire profession. Cdmguy didn't have the bandwidth to go to medical school after he quit chiro, an issue that will oh-so-obviously forever plague him.

Just my 2 cents. I will say that I am at a middle ground between facetguy and cdmguy. I think facet believes that since he knows of no problematic chiropractors (without necessarily knowing everything that goes on in each of their practices) that none of them are like that. On the other hand, cdmguy quotes statistics about the prevalence of some negative things that chiropractors do, and thus think that everyone is like them.

No, I have long ago made it very clear that I disagree with some of the things that go on in chiropractic. As I've said before, those things hurt me more than they do you. What I object to is cdm's position that it is ALL of chiropractic that subscribes to old notions, outdated models, etc. It's clearly not all of chiropractic, but cdmguy can't admit that or else his entire bogus argument falls apart.

 

[cdmguy]

You're missing a key point here. Many chiropractors don't espouse the nonsense often associated (particularly here on SDN) with chiros. We take a much more contemporary view and are not at odds with the modern world.

I'm not going to ask for a cite here because it's all BS. I hope nobody takes him seriously after his record of lying and increasing use of ad hominem attacks.

In two recent studies cited in the Mirtz et al. article, 98% of chiropractors believed that "most" or "many" diseases were caused by spinal misalignments and over 75% of chiropractors believed that subluxation was a significant contributing factor to 50% or more of visceral disorders (such as asthma and colic), an implausible idea that is not supported by any evidence whatsoever. Simon Singh was sued for saying so when he correctly referred to "wacky ideas" and "bogus treatments."
The End of Chiropractic

That's 2% who say subluxation doesn't cause most-many diseases (including non-musculoskeletal). TWO PERCENT of DCs which F is claiming represent a large number. Anyone else think F is blatantly lying now? If so why is he hiding his identity preventing us from verifying his wondrous, evidence based center-one of the few in the USA that makes no false promises and sells no quackery. I'm not buying it.

I've also brought up that NACM, the only national association that was against treating kids and non-msk disorders closed shop. So either EB is new to the thread or I think he may be unintentionally implying a Fallacy of the Middle.

Most also oppose vaccination. http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/chiro.html

Large percentages of chiropractors do not believe that immunizations are effective and do not recommend them to their patients [1,2]

 

[evilbooyaa]

No, I have long ago made it very clear that I disagree with some of the things that go on in chiropractic. As I've said before, those things hurt me more than they do you. What I object to is cdm's position that it is ALL of chiropractic that subscribes to old notions, outdated models, etc. It's clearly not all of chiropractic, but cdmguy can't admit that or else his entire bogus argument falls apart.

Reasonable. I don't care enough to verify all of CDMguy's sources as not being biased. I'll let you do that.

CDMGuy - Let me say that I am more on your side than I am on facet's. Not nearly as extremist as you are. Is it possible that Facetguy is in that 2% of DC's who don't believe in the quackery things, and only (at least superficially) knows other DCs that are also in that 2% (seeing as how there are a crapload of DCs out there)? Unlikely, but possible. When DCs are answering a survey, do they feel pressured to support what they were taught in school? Possibly (still wrong, before you jump on me for 'supporting' DCs)

I think Specter had a good point in his last post:

I think if they were to go evidence based it would result in many of their modalities being thrown out and their scope so severely restricted as to make chiropractic nonviable as a sole career.

Facetguy, I would like to see your response to ^. It is easy to enough to be an idealist when you're anonymous. Unlike CDMguy, I have no desire to know who you are in real life. It's the internet (and forums) for a reason.


This is the analogy I think of when I read this thread: NRA members vs gun control supporters
Facetguy is an NRA member (for the sake of the analogy): He believes that while there may be some who don't use guns properly, he still wants full ability to carry whatever is currently allowed.
CDMguy is a severe gun control person, who believes that people having the access to any guns is crazy, and support the Japanese model of extremely difficult gun possession for the US.
Specter and I are kind of in the middle, but slightly on the gun control side. We may believe that possibly assault rifles (even semi-automatics) should be restricted, or that there should be more in-depth background checks, and more restrictions in order to purchase a gun in the first place.

At least that's my thoughts on it. I'm sure people disagree, but that's why everyone gets to have an opinion on things like this. Let me go make some more popcorn.

 

[Gramatik]

.

 

[gettheleadout]

Facet, what do you treat in your practice exactly?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

 

[cdmguy]

CDMGuy - Let me say that I am more on your side than I am on facet's. Not nearly as extremist as you are. Is it possible that Facetguy is in that 2% of DC's who don't believe in the quackery things, and only (at least superficially) knows other DCs that are also in that 2% (seeing as how there are a crapload of DCs out there)? Unlikely, but possible. When DCs are answering a survey, do they feel pressured to support what they were taught in school? Possibly (still wrong, before you jump on me for 'supporting' DCs)

EvB that's good to hear. Let's delve into chiropractic education some more and see if we can flesh this out a bit. I tend to err on the side of safety here. The whole point of licensing a profession is to ensure safety and quality for both patients and students who enroll in their schools so when you have state regulators and accreditors that are permissive of or even mandate false diagnosis it makes me question the field. I am committed to this topic partly because myself and many others were swindled out of a good deal of time and money by a DC school (Life University) that lied in its admissions materials by stating that I would be trained to be a safe provider when the reality was they taught a dangerous alternate diagnosis system, false biomechanics and a slew of outdated quackery. I know many others who experienced disillusionment (some even commit suicide) after learning that schools misled them by similarly puffing up the importance of the career and anyone who criticizes the field is viciously attacked by practicing chiropractors. Two decades before I attended the school wasn't eligible for students loans, then accreditation requirements were loosened up and tuition skyrocketed with the end result being graduates were the number one school in student loan defaults at risk for losing aid eligibility. This was covered up by lobbying to change the student loan default cohort rate to only include the first two years of repayment and no consolidations and viola, instant compliance. Life also successfully lobbied to escape regulation from the GA college regulating agency so students have no recourse but to sue the school provided they can de-program quickly enough and gather enough evidence before their statute of limitations runs out. A new option that is open to them is to file Borrower's Defenses against Direct Loans, but if they consolidate their loans they lose the defense.

It's a mistake to think the DCs answering this survey were supporting chiropractic and going against their beliefs for two reasons. First, if this is true then where are the evidence based chiropractic guidelines they follow? They don't exist. And similarly, where is the organization they belong to (NACM)? Buried, in the ground after recruiting an insignificant number of chiropractors. NACM had a set of guidelines (reflected here) but they still permitted subluxation quackery as treatment for OA and musculoskeletal disease. I even brought this up with them when they were still around and they refused to change it. So there's your bias in favor of supporting subluxation. It wasn't that they were tolerating something they disagreed with, they fully supported false biomechanical ideas which mainstream physical therapy now fully rejects.

Evidence based practice for a chiropractor is probably illegal in most states because their scope of practice is based around subluxation. All chiropractors are taught to perform subluxation diagnosis as their algorithm for musculoskeletal complaints even though it is based on false diagnosis. They are tested on this in national board exams. That's why it is ubiquitous. So if there is no evidence of guidelines in use against it, no association supporting said guidelines then raising these mythical EB chiropractors has as much substance as a flying pink elephant. Ergo, Facetguy has as much chance of being an evidence based chiropractor as of there being flying pink elephants.

So the question is how do we ensure safety of the public when we know all the DCs are tainted? Well since chiropractic is legal banning it won't work, prohibitions never do and given the AMA's verdict in the Wilk antitrust suit they won't have the stones to do that. On the other hand, we can remove eligibility for public student loan lending in all pseudoscience subjects and continue to strictly monitor third party payments to ensure they are medically necessary. I would also add mandatory informed disclosure of stroke risk prior to any neck manipulation. This would be essentially chiropractic sterilization and end the problem in a few decades.

 

[mjl1717]

I'm sorry I got into this conversation with a bunch of people who are doctor want-to-be's.. It is like arguing with a know it all teenager..

Good luck to all...

Agree, but remember with all thats happening we need some comic relief too!

And as the saying goes and you know " youth is wasted on the young"

 

[cdmguy]

Yeah really funny there.

Life University: Deaths attributed to program

Wanna know what was really sad? The school that killed him tricked Julian Ho's father into starting a scholarship fund to make more quacks in his memory.

http://www.collegegreenlight.com/page/meritAid/programDetail.jsp?id=140252&program=366038

Life doesn't publish in journals of any quality. They don't even have a list of publications on their website.
http://www.life.edu/research/students-research-opportunities

Remember that 'Talk the Tic' program? Students continue to be brainwashed into avoiding medical care.

 

[facetguy]

Yeah really funny there.

Life University: Deaths attributed to program

Wait, are you saying that people actually get cancer and die?? No way! And heart attacks too??? People die from heart attacks now?

This might just be your goofiest assertion yet. And this is the best you could do? How are some of you guys falling for this bullcrap?

Oh wait...it was all written on "Chirotalk", so I guess it must be true. (When will you realize that stuff you write on your own website doesn't make that information a legit reference?)

And notice once again the focus on one school, Life College, and the convenient implied extrapolation to the entire profession.

Wanna know what was really sad? The school that killed him tricked Julian Ho's father into starting a scholarship fund to make more quacks in his memory.

Doesn't anyone notice a pattern here? Everyone involved in cdmguy's tales are always "tricked" or "misled". Or key information is always "covered up" so investigators can't find something out. Or the presiding judge was heavily biased and compromised and therefore ruled in favor of chiropractors, although cdmguy is the only person to know this since even the attorneys in the case couldn't see this for themselves. Or the entire chiropractic profession is committing fraud in the largest conspiracy of all time. Or that all the state regulators have been fooled. And on and on.

How come when I went to chiro school, I knew what Life College was like? If you didn't do your due diligence, that's your own fault. You should have chosen a different school (which in turn would have saved me lots of time here since your feelings about chiro would be very different). But, as it stands, you screwed up and now blame the entire chiropractic profession. It's time to finally Man Up.

Life doesn't publish in journals of any quality. They don't even have a list of publications on their website.
http://www.life.edu/research/students-research-opportunities

Remember that 'Talk the Tic' program? Students continue to be brainwashed into avoiding medical care.

 

[cdmguy]

No facet, you don't get to duck the questions posed. THE GUIDELINES DON'T EXIST therefore you are a fraud.

To be honest, you probably are so indoctrinated and misinformed by your chiropractic education and lack of exposure to other schools that you don't realize this. Nevertheless, it is true.

Regarding the poor students your interpretation could not be further from the truth. It's one thing to nicely ask for evidence but you are a real jerk to accuse me of being a liar or delusional without any evidence to back up your fairy tale. When I call you a liar I always back up my statements. Your position is a typical one for a DC, deceive people by pretending to be something you're not. Of course former chiropractors who speak out will be very disgruntled over having gotten suckered into the field so unless a MD is very smart and checks out the information closely it is easy to fall for your false argument that misrepresents mixer DCs as being evidence based when they clearly aren't.

I didn't do the forensics, they were done by Robert Goldberg MD JD, a Vidocq member forensic pathologist who was faculty at Life University in the 1990s. Here is the part of the complaint pertaining to them that was filed to the US Dept of Education and their response. They confirmed everything. It's all real and the deaths would not have happened if the students had not avoided getting appropriate medical care because of the misinformation taught to them in their chiropractic program. This is the same misinformation that continues to be taught across chiropractic schools as "Talk the Tic" contest clearly shows. Dr. Goldberg personally knew Ho and warned him that his breath had the ketosis fruity breath odor and the warning was ignored.

It is disgusting that you are so blase about the deaths of these poor students, it reminds me of the chiropractor laughing at the stroke victim. But then again given your previous comments which invariably minimize, deny and ignore massive systemic problems in chiropractic I'm not surprised. I would never expect a practicing chiropractor to have true compassion for a patient they injured following the chiropractic philosophy/belief system-to do so would require the admission and recognition that the underlying tenants are flawed, and risk damning their entire career.

Hopefully the future MDs will heed well your example of the "best" chiropractic has to offer and not make the mistake of disbelieving that an entire field of endeavor could be so blatantly against the public health. Unfortunately, in this case that is exactly what is happening and explains why chiropractors fight so hard against informed consent laws, advertisements warning about the risk of stroke from neck manipulation and encourage patients to use religious exemptions to avoid getting vaccinated. Cults always encourage black and white thinking so a chiropractor needs a patient to think that, except in limited cases like emergencies, medicine is evil and chiropractors are needed for primary care. That's why they do it. Interested readers can review past articles on the conduct of the Connecticut State Board of Chiropractic Examiners who voted against informed consent laws to warn patients about stroke from (often unnecessary) neck manipulation.

This conversation has gone on long enough.

 

[facetguy]

This conversation has gone on long enough.

So true.

Hey cdm, don't look now but I think that's a black helicopter hovering overhead. I think it might be following you.

 

[cdmguy]

I found this post from 2007 that illustrates the kind of diagnostic mistakes you'd see a chiropractor make. Here an infection is missed because the patient was afebrile, the patient was manipulated repeatedly.

On the same shift I saw two very sick patients, both of whom were under the care of chiropractors before they decided to pay us a visit in the Emergency Department. The first was an old woman with a one week history of dyspnea, chest pain, and a cough. Her chiropractor had diagnosed her with a "displaced rib," and had been dilligently popping it back into place every day for the previous week. After a simple set of vital signs revealing low blood pressure, a slow heart rate, and a slightly low temperature, not to mention a chest x-ray which showed a huge unilateral pleural effusion, it was not hard to come up with the diagnosis of pneumonia with sepsis.
"He [the chiropractor] said she didn't have a fever and she wasn't coughing anything up," said the sister.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I'm sure chiropractors study a little bit about infectious diseases somewhere in their four years of training but that's not the same thing as recognizing a constellation of symptoms and responding appropriately.

...Is this kind of dangerous ignorance typical of all chiropractors? Probably, although some are probably quicker to push the panic button than others.
-Why Chiropractors are Idiots...-Panda Bear MD

Panda also had patient from a different chiropractor come in with a MI showing intermittent chest pain on exertion-the second DC missed it and manipulated repeatedly.

Remember my comment about boilerplate diagnosis and treatment?

He eloquently states,

Look, it's not rocket science. Chiropracty is based on treating imaginary defects of the spine, called subluxations, by manipulation. These so-called defects, which are also common in people who are not sick, are believed by chiropractors to cause disease and dysfunction of organs. Again, this is an example of a little knowledge being dangerous. Chiropracty was invented at a time when physicians were just beginning to understand the role of nerves and particularly those of the autonomic nervous system. The metaphor proposed by David Palmer, the father of chiropracty, to explain disease might have sounded credible 100 years ago but it no longer fits with objective reality. It is only a dogged faith among its practitioners and the credulity of its patients that allows it to survive. And survive it does like an old painted *****, displaying a new wig and a few new trinkets, but still an old painted *****.

What does this say about chiropractic? Well the DCs were licensed so the fact that they didn't know how to diagnose properly shows how inadequate the training and boards are. I agree with him completely.

 

[facetguy]

cdmguy, I just read that your arch enemy Sid Williams has died.
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local-obituaries/sid-williams-84-founder-of-life-university/nTgWm/

I guess you'll be popping the champagne a few days early.

From the obit:
"But William’s zealous approach to chiropractic may have contributed to the decline of the school and his eventual ouster from the place he worked so hard to establish.

A 2002 report from the Council on Chiropractic Education was critical of Life’s curriculum, specifically about inadequacies in teaching students to recognize when patient care could best be provided by a medical doctor. In June of that year, the council decided to revoke the school’s accreditation and Williams was forced into retirement. Accreditation was restored the following year."

In other words Life was sub-standard, the federal gov't stripped their accreditation and forced changes. The oversight process did its job.

Perhaps the news of Sid's death will enable you to finally move on with your life?

 

[cdmguy]

They'd better get him a pee proof headstone. There's a line forming to wizz on it.

 

[facetguy]

They'd better get him a pee proof headstone. There's a line forming to wizz on it.

If that makes you feel better...

 

[SpecterGT260]

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile

 

[cdmguy]

Why evidence based chiropractic is an oxymoron and how Quackwatch got tricked into supporting quacks.

Viva la revolution! Chirotalk outlasts NACM

Happy New Year.

 

[SpecterGT260]

So a school closed?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using SDN Mobile