Cystoprostatectomy with Recurrence

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Haybrant

1K Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2004
Messages
1,977
Reaction score
563
I have a patient who underwent cystoprostatectomy for high grade urothelial ca throughout the bladder and concurrent high risk prostate cancer Gleason was 10, PSA was 10ng/ml and he had positive margin and ECE in 2022. Initial PSA undetectable but 1 year later it was 0.2 and now 0.6. PSMA PET shows gross recurrence in the bed (1.5cm metabolic nodule) and a positive R ext iliac node. He has bowel hanging down and sitting just above the pet positive lesion (about 1cm of space). The ileal conduit is in the pelvis as well. Took a screen grab of a couple key areas. Appreciate some thoughts on managing this and volumes (as there is no bladder neck and lots of bowel filling in low pelvis overlapping with the full bed and prior sv location). Thanks

Members don't see this ad.
 

Attachments

  • PSMAPros31524.png
    PSMAPros31524.png
    800 KB · Views: 32
  • PsmaprosSag.png
    PsmaprosSag.png
    1.4 MB · Views: 32
Last edited:
Had a similar case. took gross disease on mri/psma + margin to bowel tolerance and pt also got 2 yrs of zytiga.
 
Well, you are basically screwed... :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Question No 1: Do you want to do WPRT to cover all of the lymphatics and boost the positive node?
I would.

Question No 2: How high can you push the dose in the prostatic fossa? It seems that small bowel is sitting next to that PSMA-positive recurrence? You can't deliver 70 Gy there. Any chance to insert some kind of spacer down there, even if it requires surgery? We once had a silicon breast implant placed in the pelvis between a sarcoma and bowel loops to allow for higher dose. Surgery may even allow to displace the conduit?

Question No 3: Systemic treatment?
Yes, give ADT and Zytiga.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
i sim'd him prone, it got the conduit out of the way a bit but did nothing for the low hanging bowel. I saw some studies that conduits do ok getting some RT but there are higher side effect risks. Doesnt look like the conduit is directly in any part of the field.
 
Can you brachy it? It looks big enough to be visible on ultrasound to get some seeds into. I've done this before on someone with a nodular fossa recurrence who had some reason for not getting xrt (maybe it was after salvage?), but admittedly they had a bladder to keep the bowel away.
 
Everyone discussing like it’s a prostate ca recurrence, only. Why so sure. “High grade urothelial ca throughout the bladder,” and a (Gleason 10) prostate cancer. The PSA rose 0.4 over a two year period… this doesn’t match great with a 1.5cm gross pelvic recurrence and an external iliac node does it? What if you bx the node and it’s not prostate cancer? Is that possible even with PSMA positivity?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Everyone discussing like it’s a prostate ca recurrence, only. Why so sure. “High grade urothelial ca throughout the bladder,” and a (Gleason 10) prostate cancer. The PSA rose 0.4 over a two year period… this doesn’t match great with a 1.5cm gross pelvic recurrence and an external iliac node does it? What if you bx the node and it’s not prostate cancer? Is that possible even with PSMA positivity?
Gleason 9 and 10 prostate cancers are more likely to be PSA non-producing, or minimally producing, compared to less aggressive histologies. I've seen plenty of low-PSA, high-grade recurrences. PSMA positive certainly can be falsely positive, and has been reported in a variety of cancers, but the most common ones are RCC, lung, and lymphoma. Haven't seen anything about urothelial carcinoma as a false positive on PSMA.

No, I think in the setting of an undetectable PSA after cystoprostatectomy which is now detectable and rising, and hot on PSMA PET, this is prostate cancer until proven otherwise. The PSA / disease volume mismatch is not that surprising given the Gleason 10 histology. I'd be more suspicious about that mismatch it it were a Gleason 7.

If you think you've got a surgeon who can confidently put some kind of spacer in there, then it's a reasonable consideration. I've had conversations like this with various surgeons before and have never gotten anyone to bite, however. YMMV. That loop of bowel is probably adhesed, not surprised prone positioning didn't move the bowel out of the pelvis.

Lacking surgical separation, I would stick a fiducial or two in that nodule for targeting alignment and would be as aggressive as possible with my margins and dosing. I'd also do conventional fractionation to maximize how much dose you can give to the bowel, probably on the order of max dose <57-60 Gy and have a conversation about risk of bowel perforation vs risk of an ugly pelvic recurrence if the disease isn't controlled. And I'd SIB/dose paint as much dose into the GTV as possible while meeting bowel tolerance.

As for the nodes, I'd treat 'em. I'd use 50.4 for the nodal chain and SIB the PET positive node as best as possible. The hardest part is how to define a "prostatectomy bed" since there's no bladder anymore. I'd probably fuse pre-op imaging and draw a prostatectomy bed that covers the original prostate location. Can't go to 70.2 Gy with all the small bowel, so I'd probably limit it to 45 - 50.4 Gy. You're gonna treat a lot of small bowel, there's no way around it. The small bowel DVH will look farily similar to an adjuvant cystectomy plan, if you've ever done one of those. But if he recurs again in the prostatectomy bed after you've done all this radiation he's basically screwed, there is no functional salvage option at that point. So I think the risk reward is in favor of at least covering the prostatectomy bed to a microscopic dose.

Definitely would do dual ADT with a goal of 18 - 24 months. Worth pointing out that SPPORT excluded gleason 10 pts, so in the absence of data supporting stopping at 6 months I'd push for longer. Tough case, good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Isn't there precedence for getting close to a definitive prostate dose to the small bowel with hypofx? The James trial did 55/20 to the bladder with no bowel constraint I think. Could do 60/20 to psma+ stuff and bowel dmax of 55. Elective volume concurrently to 44. Obv, I'd read up and think more about this before doing it, but that has kinda been done in bladder ca.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
One last consideration is his survival is more likely to be dictated by the presence or absence of recurrence of his TCC. How was his TCC? If pT3 or greater I'd probably manage more conservatively.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Isn't there precedence for getting close to a definitive prostate dose to the small bowel with hypofx? The James trial did 55/20 to the bladder with no bowel constraint I think. Could do 60/20 to psma+ stuff and bowel dmax of 55. Elective volume concurrently to 44. Obv, I'd read up and think more about this before doing it, but that has kinda been done in bladder ca.
Yes. Could do 55/20 or 64.8 Both have been routinely used for bladder +1 cm in trials without carving out bowel and few major issues. I remember being quite nervous with the first few I accrued but never saw anything catastrophic. Either would be reasonable if you can localize and use tight margins (for the boost at least). This case would be perfect for an MR linac. This is why every department needs one 🤣🤣🤣

But before doing anything crazy, give the dude ADT with and ARB and make sure they respond as expected. This guy has local and systemic control issues. This is the point where someone asks what to do if it shrinks too much and you can’t see it to boost it. To which I reply, great, hold off on radiation until it regrows and he still has localized disease. If they have distant progression first, problem solved.

To your question, if it were me, I would probably start with systemic therapy, then treat nodes and prostate bed to 45/25 and boost gross disease to 59.4-64.8 AFTER trying systemic therapy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I would take a bowel max as high as 66 with standard frac to treat this but id probably treat to 55/20 to PTV and SIB GTV to 60/20 if i can. Can treat lymph nodes to a lower dose too
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Why treat elective nodes in this scenario when real concern is limitations of adequate dose to the primary? Whatever you plan on delivering to primary, you can almost certainly deliver more without elective nodal treatment. (not 2 mention affecting bone marrow reserve in pt who may very well need chemo/io) I would worry about the disease you can see and hope that the arb controls what you can’t.

Also, would not hypofract in this situation for similar reasons : whatever the hypofrac dose, can give more safely with conventional. (assuming pt is cooperative).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Whatever you plan on delivering to primary, you can almost certainly deliver more without elective nodal treatment.
But is this so? My main concern here would be the Dmax to the small bowel hanging deep in that pelvis, direct adjacent to the PSMA+ recurrent lesion. Will a higher V36 to the bowel really interest me, or will I still be confined by the Dmax?
 
Why treat elective nodes in this scenario when real concern is limitations of adequate dose to the primary? Whatever you plan on delivering to primary, you can almost certainly deliver more without elective nodal treatment. (not 2 mention affecting bone marrow reserve in pt who may very well need chemo/io) I would worry about the disease you can see and hope that the arb controls what you can’t.

Also, would not hypofract in this situation for similar reasons : whatever the hypofrac dose, can give more safely with conventional. (assuming pt is cooperative).
??

The concern for bowel is point dose. What you take the nodular recurrence is not in anyway affected by whether you give nodes elective dosing or not.

I allow small bowel to get point doses of EQD2 up to ~64Gy in gyn EBRT getting SIB. Would probably go slow at 1.8s and take as much of it to 70.2 as feasible but limit bowel point dose < 66Gy. Those limiting small bowel to point doses < 45-50Gy, just refer it out if you're not comfortable.

Whether you control the primary or not doesn't matter if you don't control the node. I would treat now and not let a 'complete' radiographic response to ADT give you a false sense of security in terms of recurrent risk.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
??

The concern for bowel is point dose. What you take the nodular recurrence is not in anyway affected by whether you give nodes elective dosing or not.

I allow small bowel to get point doses of EQD2 up to ~64Gy in gyn EBRT getting SIB. Would probably go slow at 1.8s and take as much of it to 70.2 as feasible but limit bowel point dose < 66Gy. Those limiting small bowel to point doses < 45-50Gy, just refer it out if you're not comfortable.

Whether you control the primary or not doesn't matter if you don't control the node. I would treat now and not let a 'complete' radiographic response to ADT give you a false sense of security in terms of recurrent risk.
To be clear, I would treat the involved node, just not anything elective
 
Last edited:
You don't do ENI during salvage of node positive prostate cancer? You treat the prostate fossa and the gross node, no elective nodal RT?
Typically I give eni, but I don’t think I would in this setting where gross recurrence will be underdosed and pt will likely see chemo.
 
Top