D.O.s in specialties.

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costales said:
Let's just say I don't know of any DO who drives a used Hyundai and lives in a crappy neighborhood.
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The hyundai santa fe isn't too bad!

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csx said:
Are we talking AOA fellowships or ACGME?
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So far, there are only 2 AOA radiology fellowships: http://www.aocr.org/?page=Fellowships

1. Pediatric Radiology at Nationwide Childrens in Columbus, OH
2. Vascular and Interventional Radiology at Oklahoma State University in Tulsa

Everything else is ACGME. I am doing a breast imaging fellowship at an academic institution in the midwest. I did an AOA rads residency. Things are changing where I am at and I think from my perspective, that it is going to become much harder for AOA trained radiology residents to get ACGME fellowships when the time comes in 2015.

A resident from my residency program applied for the breast imaging fellowship spot in 2015 and was told that she did not meet the requirements for interview. At my institution, there is a new selection committee that screens all the applicants. From what I can remember, one receives so many points for coming from a tertiary care/research based residency; points for research publications; points for USMLE scores, etc. I'm sure this doesn't happen at all places but if it does, then it is going to become very difficult.

This was an excerpt from an email I had received early on in fellowship from the AOCR:

As most are aware, after lengthy discussions, the American Osteopathic Association (AOA), the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) and the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME) could not reach an agreement on a unified graduate medical education accreditation system.

Anticipating that the unified accreditation system might not be approved, the AOA has been working diligently on a Performance Based Accreditation System (PBAS) for the evaluation of all osteopathic residency training programs. The AOA PBAS is built upon an outcome derived, checkpoint driven curriculum. By special invitation, the AOCR has reviewed the PBAS and has provided comments relevant to radiology. However, the most urgent need at this time is the development of fellowship training opportunities for our trainees.

The ACGME has proposed revisions to their Common Program Requirements that would significantly impede the opportunity for fellowship training for AOA trained radiologists. Along with the AOA, the AOCR provided comments to the ACGME opposing the restrictive language. However, the AOCR has received information that some institutions which have ACGME accredited programs are already implementing an institutional policy to not accept osteopathic training for any prerequisite training requirements. As such, the AOCR is seeking to expand fellowship training opportunities for its trainees immediately in the following areas:



Neuroradiology
Pediatric Radiology
Vascular and Interventional Radiology
Musculoskeletal Radiology
Abdominal Radiology
Nuclear Radiology
Women’s Imaging
Breast Imaging
MRI
Body Imaging
Cross Sectional Imaging
 
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Just out of curiosity why is dermatology and urology highly competitive? What made them this competitive and have higher salaries compared to other doctors in EM or gen surgery?
 
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Chillywilly said:
Just out of curiosity why is dermatology and urology highly competitive? What made them this competitive and have higher salaries compared to other doctors in EM or gen surgery?
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Lifestyle, Percentage of patients paying in cash, small number of residency spots nationwide...
 
What about dermatology and ophthalmology? Are those specialties really out of reach for DOs?

Wouldn't DOs actually have an advantage if they wanted dermatology? Like, during their fourth year of med school they can try applying to all the acgme derm programs (yes, all of them, like a lot of derm applicants do), and if they don't match, then they could go into an osteopathic IM internship, and then apply to osteopathic derm while making plenty of connections during internship. This logic seems like it makes DOs have an advantage when applying to derm, but everyone on here seems to think that specialties like that are out of reach for DOS.

Also, what about ophthalmology? They have their own aoa ophthalmology residencies.
 
Rememberstuff said:
What about dermatology and ophthalmology? Are those specialties really out of reach for DOs?

Wouldn't DOs actually have an advantage if they wanted dermatology? Like, during their fourth year of med school they can try applying to all the acgme derm programs (yes, all of them, like a lot of derm applicants do), and if they don't match, then they could go into an osteopathic IM internship, and then apply to osteopathic derm while making plenty of connections during internship. This logic seems like it makes DOs have an advantage when applying to derm, but everyone on here seems to think that specialties like that are out of reach for DOS.

Also, what about ophthalmology? They have their own aoa ophthalmology residencies.
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There are very few AOA derm and ophtho programs - 12 AOA ophtho programs participated in the match this year with 17 positions. 24 programs for AOA derm and 45 positions.

They don't have an advantage because only a minority of these competitive ACGME programs (~31% of derm, ophtho a bit more DO-friendly, I'd estimate >50%) even consider DO applications.

pattr said:
From the Results of the 2012 NRMP Program Director Survey:

Percentage of Programs that Typically Interview and Rank Each Applicant Groups (Osteopathic)

Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation: 97% (N=33)
Psychiatry: 94% (N=86)
Family Medicine: 93% (N=230)
Pathology: 91% (N=75)
Pediatrics: 87% (N=128)
Child Neurology: 86% (N=44)
Anesthesiology: 83% (N=87)
Neurology: 81% (N=57)
Internal Medicine: 79% (N=286)
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics: 77% (N=35)
Obstetrics and Gynecology: 77% (N=112)
Radiology: 69% (N=86)
Emergency Medicine: 68% (N=96)
Transitional Year: 68% (N=47)
Radiation Oncology: 63% (N=43)
General Surgery: 53% (N=160)
Plastic Surgery: 50% (N=26)
Vascular Surgery: 50% (N=12)
Neurological Surgery: 38% (N=40)
Dermatology: 31% (N=52)
Orthopedic Surgery: 30% (N=83)
Otolaryngology: 28% (N=50)

All Specialties: 73% (N=1,868)
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pattr said:
There are very few AOA derm and ophtho programs - 12 AOA ophtho programs participated in the match this year with 17 positions. 24 programs for AOA derm and 45 positions.

They don't have an advantage because only a minority of these competitive ACGME programs (~31% of derm, ophtho a bit more DO-friendly, I'd estimate >50%) even consider DO applications.
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Ophthalmology isn't on the list
 
pattr said:
Ophtho has a separate match (SF match) and isn't included in the NRMP survey.
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Oh. That's interesting, I didn't know about that. Also, I realize there aren't a lot of DO derm programs, but I am wondering, how many DOS apply for derm each year?
 
Rememberstuff said:
What about dermatology and ophthalmology? Are those specialties really out of reach for DOs?

Wouldn't DOs actually have an advantage if they wanted dermatology? Like, during their fourth year of med school they can try applying to all the acgme derm programs (yes, all of them, like a lot of derm applicants do), and if they don't match, then they could go into an osteopathic IM internship, and then apply to osteopathic derm while making plenty of connections during internship. This logic seems like it makes DOs have an advantage when applying to derm, but everyone on here seems to think that specialties like that are out of reach for DOS.

Also, what about ophthalmology? They have their own aoa ophthalmology residencies.
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There were 17 opthamo and 45 derm spots offered in the AOA match this year. There were 5153 grads this year.
 
cliquesh said:
There were 17 opthamo and 45 derm spots offered in the AOA match this year. There were 5153 grads this year.
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what I am trying to find out, is how many grads actually applied for derm. Or ophthalmology. I'm pretty sure all 5153 of them didn't apply to one of those two specialties. Not all 5153 of them were probably able to get top board scores.
 
Rememberstuff said:
What about dermatology and ophthalmology? Are those specialties really out of reach for DOs?

Wouldn't DOs actually have an advantage if they wanted dermatology? Like, during their fourth year of med school they can try applying to all the acgme derm programs (yes, all of them, like a lot of derm applicants do), and if they don't match, then they could go into an osteopathic IM internship, and then apply to osteopathic derm while making plenty of connections during internship. This logic seems like it makes DOs have an advantage when applying to derm, but everyone on here seems to think that specialties like that are out of reach for DOS.

Also, what about ophthalmology? They have their own aoa ophthalmology residencies.
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No, no, no.... there are some major issues with your reasoning. Looking at the numbers will show you it is almost statistically impossible for a DO to match ACGME derm. It just RARELY happens, sorry it's just the truth if you look at the numbers.
As for AOA derm, it isn't like getting into medical school, it isn't just showing some good numbers and not blowing the interview and waiting for the acceptance call. Rank all the programs in the country but it's going to take way more to match at any program.

You are right in some sense, the sky is not falling on DOs, the medical world is pretty well open in most places and most fields to DOs. But some things are just out of reach and it is important to acknowledge that. Derm (ophtho and a few others) at this point in time is just one of those fields. Very few will match ACGME and those that match AOA will be rockstars.
 
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Rememberstuff said:
what I am trying to find out, is how many grads actually applied for derm. Or ophthalmology. I'm pretty sure all 5153 of them didn't apply to one of those two specialties. Not all 5153 of them were probably able to get top board scores.
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See above posts. I too think you are thinking about this the wrong way.

There are many more applicants than spots that is for sure for these types of fields. I don't think there is any published data for AOA in terms of applicants per specialty. Plus, especially for osteopathic residency programs, it's more about your audition rotations and your ability to impress the residents and attendings on a personal level rather than necessarily having the best board scores.
 
Mosonik said:
No, no, no.... there are some major issues with your reasoning. Looking at the numbers will show you it is almost statistically impossible for a DO to match ACGME derm. It just RARELY happens, sorry it's just the truth if you look at the numbers.
As for AOA derm, it isn't like getting into medical school, it isn't just showing some good numbers and not blowing the interview and waiting for the acceptance call. Rank all the programs in the country but it's going to take way more to match at any program.

You are right in some sense, the sky is not falling on DOs, the medical world is pretty well open in most places and most fields to DOs. But some things are just out of reach and it is important to acknowledge that. Derm (ophtho and a few others) at this point in time is just one of those fields. Very few will match ACGME and those that match AOA will be rockstars.
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That sounds kinda depressing to me. Recently, I emailed my state med school's derm department (yeah I know, I know) and asked them whether they take DO students. They emailed me back and said that they do, and in fact this cycle they ranked a DO student highly. And my state school is a top 40 research school. Top 20 (I think?) primary care. Plus, there are osteopathic combined derm/fm combined 6 year residencies, into which you match in your fourth year I think. Correct me if I am wrong. Those are also pretty neat because you get to experience the family medicine side of things. I would definitely do one like this even if it's 6 years.
 
pattr said:
See above posts. I too think you are thinking about this the wrong way.

There are many more applicants than spots that is for sure for these types of fields. I don't think there is any published data for AOA in terms of applicants per specialty. Plus, especially for osteopathic residency programs, it's more about your audition rotations and your ability to impress the residents and attendings on a personal level rather than necessarily having the best board scores.
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Is this a bad thing? I'd say that's a good thing. If someone has the right social skills, but perhaps lacks in test taking skills, this doesn't sound so bad.
 
Rememberstuff said:
what I am trying to find out, is how many grads actually applied for derm. Or ophthalmology. I'm pretty sure all 5153 of them didn't apply to one of those two specialties. Not all 5153 of them were probably able to get top board scores.
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There is no data for derm.

In 2012 there were 1.98 first choice applicants per AOA opthmalogy spot.

The ratio is actually larger, however.


First choice means people who applied to opthamo only or ophthalmogy and some other speciality. It does not include people who applied to urology as their first choice and ophthalmology as a backup.
 
cliquesh said:
There is no data for derm.

In 2012 there were 1.98 first choice applicants per AOA opthmalogy spot.

The ratio is actually larger, however.


First choice means people who applied to opthamo only or ophthalmogy and some other speciality. It does not include people who applied to urology as their first choice and ophthalmology as a backup.
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So about 2 people per spot? That's not too bad, I would say. Right? And even with all the extra applicants maybe it's like 3-4 people per spot. I think applying to med school is a lot more competitive, since it's like 5000 applicants for 150 spots.
 
Rememberstuff said:
So about 2 people per spot? That's not too bad, I would say. Right? And even with all the extra applicants maybe it's like 3-4 people per spot. I think applying to med school is a lot more competitive, since it's like 5000 applicants for 150 spots.
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It's much harder than applying to medical school.

First of all, you're comparison is invalid. There's about 2 people applying per spot to med school as well. Now take those students who actually got in, and that's the population at your baseline.

Next, take the top 20% of this medical school population and these are the students your competing against; Students who undoubtedly want a job as much as their peers.

Never mind that they're all auditioning for the job and buttering up the people who will be making the match decisions.
 
NontradCA said:
It's much harder than applying to medical school.

First of all, you're comparison is invalid. There's about 2 people applying per spot to med school as well. Now take those students who actually got in, and that's the population at your baseline.

Next, take the top 20% of this medical school population and these are the students your competing against; Students who undoubtedly want a job as much as their peers.

Never mind that they're all auditioning for the job and buttering up the people who will be making the match decisions.
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How is it 2 students per spot in medical school? Most schools receive 5000+ applications for 150 spots. To me, that is about 33 students per spot.

Also, in medical school you don't have to do EC's. You can just do research in the summer to be competitive. So in med school you can spend all your time studying instead of doing ec's, and therefore have better grades than you did in undergrad. Right? 2 students per spot is not competitive at all in my opinion, for residencies. That's like applying to a medical school that only receives 300 applications total per year with 150 spots available. If there were more medical schools like that, my application would be heaven. Except right now there are zero schools like that.
 
Rememberstuff said:
How is it 2 students per spot in medical school? Most schools receive 5000+ applications for 150 spots. To me, that is about 33 students per spot.

Also, in medical school you don't have to do EC's. You can just do research in the summer to be competitive. So in med school you can spend all your time studying instead of doing ec's, and therefore have better grades than you did in undergrad. Right? 2 students per spot is not competitive at all in my opinion, for residencies. That's like applying to a medical school that only receives 300 applications total per year with 150 spots available. If there were more medical schools like that, my application would be heaven. Except right now there are zero schools like that.
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Okay. Let me know in four years how your theory of "matching ophtho residency is easier than getting into medical school" works out.

2 applicants per spot is very competitive. You are going up against superstars.
 
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Rememberstuff said:
How is it 2 students per spot in medical school? Most schools receive 5000+ applications for 150 spots. To me, that is about 33 students per spot.

Also, in medical school you don't have to do EC's. You can just do research in the summer to be competitive. So in med school you can spend all your time studying instead of doing ec's, and therefore have better grades than you did in undergrad. Right? 2 students per spot is not competitive at all in my opinion, for residencies. That's like applying to a medical school that only receives 300 applications total per year with 150 spots available. If there were more medical schools like that, my application would be heaven. Except right now there are zero schools like that.
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No you're not understanding. That's an average 2 applicants per spot over ALL the Optho residencies. When you look at average applicants per spot for ALL medical schools it's about 2.7. But you can't make the comparison because of reasons above.
 
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I'm a 3rdyear DO student applying for ACGME ophthalmology. It is definitely doable as a DO if you are a good applicant - you gotta take Step 1 and be near the national average (this year was 242). A lot of programs consider DOs and most of those programs that do won't take your DO status as a negative. PM me if your interested in specifics
 
The logic being thrown out here is ridiculous. The amount of pre-meds that are applying to med school that are unqualified is astounding. I'll even admit that applied to some schools that's were a ridiculous stretch. That happens to a seriously smaller degree when applying for residency. Go read some of the surg sub-specialty threads if you want a wake up call.

A 50/50 shot of getting a job if your dream career when $250k+ in debt after you've worked harder than you can currently imagine is horrendous odds.
 
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Good luck to DO students who are gunning for Ophthalmology, Urology , Ortho or Neuro Surge. People like me who are gunning for FM or Psych are smiling though. You guys/gals who are gunning for these competitive specialties better kill Step 1 (250+).
 
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DrEnderW said:
The logic being thrown out here is ridiculous. The amount of pre-meds that are applying to med school that are unqualified is astounding. I'll even admit that applied to some schools that's were a ridiculous stretch. That happens to a seriously smaller degree when applying for residency. Go read some of the surg sub-specialty threads if you want a wake up call.

A 50/50 shot of getting a job if your dream career when $250k+ in debt after you've worked harder than you can currently imagine is horrendous odds.
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The amount of unqualified applicant is not that staggering when one looks at these data... There are not that many applicants with <3.0 GPA and <23 MCAT

http://www.aacom.org/data/applicantsmatriculants/Documents/2013-Applicant-Matriculant-Report.pdf
 
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Can someone do FM and then do a fellowship in derm? I remember talking to a physician (M.D.) who did that....
 
Rememberstuff said:
That sounds kinda depressing to me. Recently, I emailed my state med school's derm department (yeah I know, I know) and asked them whether they take DO students. They emailed me back and said that they do, and in fact this cycle they ranked a DO student highly. And my state school is a top 40 research school. Top 20 (I think?) primary care. Plus, there are osteopathic combined derm/fm combined 6 year residencies, into which you match in your fourth year I think. Correct me if I am wrong. Those are also pretty neat because you get to experience the family medicine side of things. I would definitely do one like this even if it's 6 years.
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Doing your research early is very important for specialties like derm so you are on the right track in figuring it out now if that is where you want to be. I don't know your background but recognize throwing all your eggs in one basket early is sometimes detrimental because your opinion of derm may change as you gain exposure to other fields or just flat out decide it isn't all that you thought it would be. Also, DO or MD, your classmates and peers are the best and brightest don't underestimate what your competition will be. Good luck!
 
DopaDO said:
I'm a 3rdyear DO student applying for ACGME ophthalmology. It is definitely doable as a DO if you are a good applicant - you gotta take Step 1 and be near the national average (this year was 242). A lot of programs consider DOs and most of those programs that do won't take your DO status as a negative. PM me if your interested in specifics
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Is this actually possible? I didn't imagine wanting a competitive residency like derm or ophtho before med school, but the more I look into it Ophtho sounds pretty fun. I assumed my only real option would be applying AOA, so I'm not sure how you plan to match one of the few ACGME Ophtho spots or the spots in the SF match. I imagine like a handful of DOs actually match non-AOA Ophtho... Do you know something I don't?
 
hallowmann said:
Is this actually possible? I didn't imagine wanting a competitive residency like derm or ophtho before med school, but the more I look into it Ophtho sounds pretty fun. I assumed my only real option would be applying AOA, so I'm not sure how you plan to match one of the few ACGME Ophtho spots or the spots in the SF match. I imagine like a handful of DOs actually match non-AOA Ophtho... Do you know something I don't?
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ACGME ophtho is actually very do-able provided you are a strong candidate. You should look into it more.
 
pattr said:
ACGME ophtho is actually very do-able provided you are a strong candidate. You should look into it more.
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You said a lot consider DOs... What is a lot? Like 90% of the ones you have researched? 50%? 25%?
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Good luck to DO students who are gunning for Ophthalmology, Urology , Ortho or Neuro Surge. People like me who are gunning for FM or Psych are smiling though. You guys/gals who are gunning for these competitive specialties better kill Step 1 (250+).
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I'm not convinced that you need to kill step 1 for ortho. I know people who matched who are less than stellar. Although you didn't mention it, I also know people who matched into derm who also aren't stellar candidates.
 
pattr said:
I would estimate at least 50%... I don't think there's published hard data on that though.
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I have emailed numerous programs (50ish) and while it is possible some lied to me, I would estimate:

40ish told me that my DO status is a nonissue

5 said it would make things a little more challenging,but still possible

5 said they wouldn't consider me
 
HarryPlopper said:
I'm not convinced that you need to kill step 1 for ortho. I know people who matched who are less than stellar. Although you didn't mention it, I also know people who matched into derm who also aren't stellar candidates.
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I actually very much agree with this. I think for most programs, if they are going to consider a DO, they will look at your application as if you are an MD. That means if you are as competitive as the average MD, you got just as good of a shot.
 
[quoteaDO, post: 14905746, member: 400773"]I actually very much agree with this. I think for most programs, if they are going to consider a DO, they will look at your application as if you are an MD. That means if you are as competitive as the average MD, you got just as good of a shot.[/quo

On one of my interviews one of the interviewers said he felt sorry for me because he was certain I'd match at his program if I was a MD, but he didn't think the residency committee was going to rank me very highly because I'm a DO.
 
cliquesh said:
[quoteaDO, post: 14905746, member: 400773"]
On one of my interviews one of the interviewers said he felt sorry for me because he was certain I'd match at his program if I was a MD, but he didn't think the residency committee was going to rank me very highly because I'm a DO.
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Well you'll know your answer March 17th and yes we all know that there is still prejudice against DO at some programs. I'm sorry for your current situation but I'm sure you'll find alternative programs.

What did you apply for?
 
cliquesh said:
On one of my interviews one of the interviewers said he felt sorry for me because he was certain I'd match at his program if I was a MD, but he didn't think the residency committee was going to rank me very highly because I'm a DO.
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I haven't matched yet, so there is the possibility that I'm wrong but that seems to be an n=1. I'm sure there are programs like that in every field. From what I have experienced, that is not the case at the majority of programs.
 
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HarryPlopper said:
Well you'll know your answer March 17th and yes we all know that there is still prejudice against DO at some programs. I'm sorry for your current situation but I'm sure you'll find alternative programs.

What did you apply for?
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I matched anesthesia last year. I went on roughly 20 interviews and on 3 of those interviews at least one of the interviewers said something similar to the conversation I described.

In the end it didn't matter. I matched my second choice.
 
cliquesh said:
I matched anesthesia last year. I went on roughly 20 interviews and on 3 of those interviews at least one of the interviewers said something similar to the conversation I described.

In the end it didn't matter. I matched my second choice.
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God 20 interviews? You were pretty much bound to hit a DO unfriendly program.

Congrats on the match.
 
off the top of my head, UChicago, UMich, and UPMC have taken DOs into their ophthalmology programs in the past. i have seen others, but i cannot recall the programs.
 
aurgeDO said:
off the top of my head, UChicago, UMich, and UPMC have taken DOs into their ophthalmology programs in the past. i have seen others, but i cannot recall the programs.
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Drexel and Columbia (maybe Cornell)
 
SurgeDO said:
off the top of my head, UChicago, UMich, and UPMC have taken DOs into their ophthalmology programs in the past. i have seen others, but i cannot recall the programs.
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Just to add a few off the top of my head, there are several more - Louisville, Arkansas, U South Carolina, U of Arizona, Mizzou all have DOs.
 
Mosonik said:
Doing your research early is very important for specialties like derm so you are on the right track in figuring it out now if that is where you want to be. I don't know your background but recognize throwing all your eggs in one basket early is sometimes detrimental because your opinion of derm may change as you gain exposure to other fields or just flat out decide it isn't all that you thought it would be. Also, DO or MD, your classmates and peers are the best and brightest don't underestimate what your competition will be. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Even at DO schools with low averages?
 
How early is 'early' for doing research?

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