D.O. Surgeon?

[h00d314]

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I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school. I am much more interested in the ostopathic philosophy of medicine (definitly makes much more sense to me than alleopathic), but fear that because most osteopathic schools train students for primary care that it would significantly hinder my chances of getting into a program to become a surgeon. Also, are there any osteopathic schools that I would have a better chance at obtaining this position? Thank you for any advice that you can give.

 

[crys20]

Well, there are Ortho Surg residencies that are DO residencies so if you're interested in that obviously going DO is a good route since only DOs can match into those spots. Some people make the case that in general MD residencies are 'better' than DO residencies, so alot of DO grads go the allopathic residency route; then you get certified by the same board that licenses MDs.

That said, matching into an MD ortho surg spot will be tough as a DO, but it would be tough as an MD too. I noticed that AZCOM's 2004 match placed one student into an MD ortho surg spot. All the DO schools have match lists you can look at, so check those out and see what looks most impressive.

 

[Ifellinapothole]

I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school. I am much more interested in the ostopathic philosophy of medicine (definitly makes much more sense to me than alleopathic), but fear that because most osteopathic schools train students for primary care that it would significantly hinder my chances of getting into a program to become a surgeon. Also, are there any osteopathic schools that I would have a better chance at obtaining this position? Thank you for any advice that you can give.

It's competitive whether you are an MD or DO. Just be willing to do a DO residency. The advantage you will have had as a DO is with the added OMM emphasis and integrated knowledge of musclo-skeletal system.

I have no numbers or stats to offer you. Why don't you post in the orthopaedic section below and call some schools directly and ask them how many orthos they have placed in the past 5 years to get a sense.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school. I am much more interested in the ostopathic philosophy of medicine (definitly makes much more sense to me than alleopathic), but fear that because most osteopathic schools train students for primary care that it would significantly hinder my chances of getting into a program to become a surgeon. Also, are there any osteopathic schools that I would have a better chance at obtaining this position? Thank you for any advice that you can give.

Yes, look for those school that have ortho residencies.

OSU-COM, for example, has 2 DO residency programs (1 in Tulsa and 1 in Oklahoma City.)

 

[SOUNDMAN]

My supervising physician is a D.O. orthopaedic surgeon.

 

[ShyRem]

In my town we have a whole group practice of DO orthopods. The other group practice is MDs.

 

[MSc44]

I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school. I am much more interested in the ostopathic philosophy of medicine (definitly makes much more sense to me than alleopathic), but fear that because most osteopathic schools train students for primary care that it would significantly hinder my chances of getting into a program to become a surgeon. Also, are there any osteopathic schools that I would have a better chance at obtaining this position? Thank you for any advice that you can give.

The first time i was introduced to the DO profession about 10 years ago it was a bunch of DO residents in gen and ortho surgery, most came out of nycom, since this program was in NY

 

[NRAI2001]

In my town we have a whole group practice of DO orthopods. The other group practice is MDs.

Why did the DO's and MD segregate themselves? Do they have trouble working with each other? Different philosophies? Different training?

I would imagine that there would be no such seperation in most fields when it comes to DOs and MDs?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Why did the DO's and MD segregate themselves? Do they have trouble working with each other? Different philosophies? Different training?

I would imagine that there would be no such seperation in most fields when it comes to DOs and MDs?

Different philosophies? Yes (systems-based vs. holistic approach)

Different training? Yes (OMM, as well as difference between AOA and ACGME residencies)

 

[NRAI2001]

Different philosophies? Yes (systems-based vs. holistic approach)

Different training? Yes (OMM, as well as difference between AOA and ACGME residencies)

But is the training so different that they must form their own practicing groups? i would imagine they would differ in some respects, but for the most part they would practice in very similar manners and techniques/procedures?

I heard that the holistic vs systems based line is way over stressed. Both MDs and DOs try to approach the case as holistically as possible.

 

[ShyRem]

It's weird - this town everything is segregated when it comes to medicine. Paramedics can't go to training with doctors, nurses can't go to training with doctors or paramedics, and DOs and MDs don't mix in their practices.

We even have a DO hospital and an MD hospital, and several MDs REFUSE to work at the DO hospital, while the MD hospital gives some DOs a hard time about having patients there (so I hear).

What makes it even stranger is many lay people PREFER the DO hospital (unless it has to be done at the MD hospital - i.e. major trauma, c-sections, cath lab, etc.), and many lay people prefer a DO as a primary care doc. Some of the DO orthos are more respected for certain joint work than their MD counterparts.

As for the OMM thing - most DOs I know don't do OMM, and I've talked to their patients who had no idea DOs were trained in OMM... they just liked the whole-person approach that DOs are known for.

 

[ShyRem]

But is the training so different that they must form their own practicing groups? i would imagine they would differ in some respects, but for the most part they would practice in very similar manners and techniques/procedures?

I heard that the holistic vs systems based line is way over stressed. Both MDs and DOs try to approach the case as holistically as possible.

I don't know if the training is 'so different' not having been through both MD and DO trainings. Personally, my primary care doc is an MD - but he also does acupuncture and listens to me well. On the other hand, I went to one of the DO orthos - he didn't listen to me at all and told me that my knee that clicks and sticks all the time and hurts occassionally at a VERY particular angle has 'nothing wrong with it'. He didn't offer OMM, only looked at the joint in question and nothing else. He didn't listen to me at all, and I haven't been back. My husband goes to a DO and absolutely adores him. I interviewed every pediatrician in my town and the only one I really really liked was a DO.

As far as holistic vs. systems based goes, I think a lot of how a doctor works for a patient has more to do with how they get along with the patient and how the patient gets along with the doctor. Some docs won't listen to me no matter if they're MD or DO. I never really cared, personally, what alphabet they had as long as they were a good doc for me.

I think the MD/DO separation has more to do with petty politics and old ways of thinking than any problem or difference in care or philosophy. Seems lots of the newer docs coming into town work very well with either flavor of doctor. The old fuddy-duddies are the stick-in-the-muds I think.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

Different philosophies? Yes (systems-based vs. holistic approach)



I believe this is entirely wrong. Almost all Osteopathic schools have some sort of systems based education. Atleast the ones I've interviewed at. As well as MD's practicing treating the entire patient. Yes OMM, would be the major difference.


However I've worked with both D.O.'s and M.D.'s in the orthopaedic profession. There isn't any difference, except the normal difference between different physicians.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Different philosophies? Yes (systems-based vs. holistic approach)



I believe this is entirely wrong. Almost all Osteopathic schools have some sort of systems based education. Atleast the ones I've interviewed at. As well as MD's practicing treating the entire patient. Yes OMM, would be the major difference.


However I've worked with both D.O.'s and M.D.'s in the orthopaedic profession. There isn't any difference, except the normal difference between different physicians.

By holistic approach, I mean an emphasis in viscerosomatic and somatovisceral reflexes. This emphasis is truly different in both schools.

 

[newbie04]

DO Orthopaedic Spine Surgeon at the Texas Back Institute and another here.

The TBI is a very well respected Spine Center will surgeons that are at the "top" of their field.

I am sure there are countless other examples of DOs surgeons, as DOs are found in practically every specialty.

 

[Bull's eye]

I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school. I am much more interested in the ostopathic philosophy of medicine (definitly makes much more sense to me than alleopathic), but fear that because most osteopathic schools train students for primary care that it would significantly hinder my chances of getting into a program to become a surgeon. Also, are there any osteopathic schools that I would have a better chance at obtaining this position? Thank you for any advice that you can give.

Ummmmm........ (Looks down at nametag) Yes.
Which DO School doesn't matter, just do plenty of audition rotations early in your 4th year and study you butt off. I think that i have said this a thousand times and it should be very interesting to see how it unfolds with the combined match (if it really happens) Since the DO match is earlier in the year and most applicants are desperate to get a spot, the DO residencies have a way of picking over the best applicants from the DO pool leaving very few competitive applicants left for the MD match, however, still there are a few that match to MD spots every year. Point is.... If you go DO be prepared to do a DO ortho residency (and they are in a lot of ways as good or better than MD academic centers). I know because I'm a DO resident in a DO residency that spends half of my residency at an academic MD residency and can compare the two. So, go into this saying I'm a DO and I will go into a DO ortho residency, and if you have bigger goals (like a DO getting into MD ortho) go to an MD school. It's not impossible, but even if you have the stats, the letters, and the research, turning down that DO ortho spot/match is REALLY REALLY hard. I lived it.

 

[NRAI2001]

Ummmmm........ (Looks down at nametag) Yes.
Which DO School doesn't matter, just do plenty of audition rotations early in your 4th year and study you butt off. I think that i have said this a thousand times and it should be very interesting to see how it unfolds with the combined match (if it really happens) Since the DO match is earlier in the year and most applicants are desperate to get a spot, the DO residencies have a way of picking over the best applicants from the DO pool leaving very few competitive applicants left for the MD match, however, still there are a few that match to MD spots every year. Point is.... If you go DO be prepared to do a DO ortho residency (and they are in a lot of ways as good or better than MD academic centers). I know because I'm a DO resident in a DO residency that spends half of my residency at an academic MD residency and can compare the two. So, go into this saying I'm a DO and I will go into a DO ortho residency, and if you have bigger goals (like a DO getting into MD ortho) go to an MD school. It's not impossible, but even if you have the stats, the letters, and the research, turning down that DO ortho spot/match is REALLY REALLY hard. I lived it.

If there is a combined match how will it work? Will MDs be elligible to do DO residencies? If so how would this work considering MDs can't do OMM?

 

[OSUdoc08]

If there is a combined match how will it work? Will MDs be elligible to do DO residencies? If so how would this work considering MDs can't do OMM?

The combined match would only be for DO's. MD's would not be able to do DO residencies.

 

[NRAI2001]

The combined match would only be for DO's. MD's would not be able to do DO residencies.

So its only combined in the sense that it ll be at the same time as the allo matches?

 

[PublicHealth]

I am interested in becoming an orthopedic surgeon, I was wondering if it is possible to obtain this position if I were to attend an osteopathic medical school.

Ask the Chair of Orthopedic Surgery at Dartmouth:

http://www.dhmc.org/providers/dhmc_provider_1454.cfm

 

[NRAI2001]

How many DO ortho residency spots are there every year? Are they in general comparable to MD spots in training and profeciency after its completion?

 

[SOUNDMAN]

How many DO ortho residency spots are there every year? Are they in general comparable to MD spots in training and profeciency after its completion?

Is this a serious question about proficiency? Of course DO orthopods are just as proficient as MD orthopods. I'm sure some DO residencies are even superior to some MD residencies in orthopaedics. So much of residency is just teaching you the basics. You really start to learn when there is no one else around to cover your arse. Actually for DO boards in orthopaedics they come and audit so many surgeries/cases you've done and then acutally watch you do some cases. Then they grill you on them. This is in addition to the normal written and verbal portion that MD's go through.

So yes they are quite proficient.

 

[NRAI2001]

Is this a serious question about proficiency? Of course DO orthopods are just as proficient as MD orthopods. I'm sure some DO residencies are even superior to some MD residencies in orthopaedics. So much of residency is just teaching you the basics. You really start to learn when there is no one else around to cover your arse. Actually for DO boards in orthopaedics they come and audit so many surgeries/cases you've done and then acutally watch you do some cases. Then they grill you on them. This is in addition to the normal written and verbal portion that MD's go through.

So yes they are quite proficient.

I was just wondering bc many people criticize DO residencies as not being as good as Allo residencies. Being the reason that so many ( i think a majority) DOs do allo residencies every year.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I was just wondering bc many people criticize DO residencies as not being as good as Allo residencies. Being the reason that so many ( i think a majority) DOs do allo residencies every year.

That is because people knock osteopaths because I think the allopaths are starting to become threatened by them. Here is New York, NYCOM graduates 300 DO's per year. In the hospitals, they are starting to have OMM clinics and people have been going to the DO's like crazy!

 

[NRAI2001]

That is because people knock osteopaths because I think the allopaths are starting to become threatened by them. Here is New York, NYCOM graduates 300 DO's per year. In the hospitals, they are starting to have OMM clinics and people have been going to the DO's like crazy!

Wow, thats awesome. 👍 So a lot of patients seek out OMM as a treatment?

 

[USArmyDoc]

Wow, thats awesome. 👍 So a lot of patients seek out OMM as a treatment?

Well, I think it has to do with the Docs implementing OMM and because it has been so successful they pursue it. 😉

 

[OSUdoc08]

Wow, thats awesome. 👍 So a lot of patients seek out OMM as a treatment?

Yeah, they do. In fact, I've been in situations where I've heard these requests.

 

[NRAI2001]

Yeah, they do. In fact, I've been in situations where I've heard these requests.

Wow, i didn't know that the public was so aware of OMM. Most people i ve spoken with don't know what a DO, let alone what OMM is. Thats cool 👍

 

[SOUNDMAN]

In addition though, OMM is getting reimbursed seperate from the traditional office visit. So if you see a patient and do OMM, you can bill for both. This used to be a trade off, bill for the OMM or the office visit, but not able to bill for both. So some DO's just stopped doing it. In addition OMM definitely adds a great dimension to the practice, however if you become fairly busy, you might not be able to do OMM as much as you like.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Wow, i didn't know that the public was so aware of OMM. Most people i ve spoken with don't know what a DO, let alone what OMM is. Thats cool 👍

It depends on the part of the country you live in. DO's are more common than MD's in many areas here.

 

[DarkWingDuck]

Ask the Chair of Orthopedic Surgery at Dartmouth:

http://www.dhmc.org/providers/dhmc_provider_1454.cfm

Short, and to the point. Very funny.

 

[NRAI2001]

It depends on the part of the country you live in. DO's are more common than MD's in many areas here.

They arent as common on the coasts and in California.

 

[OSUdoc08]

They arent as common on the coasts and in California.

I wonder if it was because they made all of the DO's change their title to MD in California.

By the way, saying "on the coasts AND in California" would be repetitive, since California is in fact on the coast.

 

[SOUNDMAN]

nm

 

[NRAI2001]

I wonder if it was because they made all of the DO's change their title to MD in California.

By the way, saying "on the coasts AND in California" would be repetitive, since California is in fact on the coast.

Yea i know, i was specifying Ca bc i live in Ca. They never made DOs change their titles to MDs, they gave them the option in the past, but they stopped that long ago.

Why some doctors actually did change their titles from DO to MD i dont know and that could be a whole other question.

 

[monelkub]

On topic of thread title:

I'm going to chime in. We may be new up here in Las Vegas at TUNCOM but we have the premier Orthopedic Research Institute (MERIN) in the US. It trains orthopedic surgeons from all over the US and the world, allopaths and all. It is headed by a DO orthopedic surgeon, Dr. Crovetti. I truly believe that if you’re going DO and want to do ortho you'll want to go here. Heck, even in general gross anatomy (first year) we had a lecture on lower extremity and then went to the OR suite and watched a total knee done in person. Wow, all within our building.

Couple links:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Sep-04-Sun-2005/news/27148073.html

http://www.lasvegassun.com/sunbin/stories/text/2005/apr/14/518602760.html

Good luck and remember the search key is a great tool. With thousands of threads you know this has been addressed in the past 😉

Nik