D3 at Midwestern AZ - AMA

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Cello

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Hi everyone,

I'm a third year dental student at Midwestern in Glendale, AZ. I'll answer any questions I can about our program.

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Hi everyone,

I'm a third year dental student at Midwestern in Glendale, AZ. I'll answer any questions I can about our program.

Do you have any interview tips? What do they look for in a candidate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi everyone,

I'm a third year dental student at Midwestern in Glendale, AZ. I'll answer any questions I can about our program.

What do you like most about the program?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Members don't see this ad :)
What do you like most about the program?

The fact that our experience is shaped entirely by our ambition and our demonstrated competence. Once you establish a relationship with a specialist (endo, OS, perio, etc.) and they know you, they will give you more freedom to work on your own. My partner extracted third molars in our suite (without surgeons) three weeks ago because our surgeons had confidence he could handle it without them.

There's almost no limit to what you can do at our school if faculty trust you. My D4 partner placed 18 implants during his third year (start to finish, from drilling the pilot hole to suturing the flap). We are currently completing two Trinia hybrid denture cases together with another 24 implants on our schedule between the two of us. We are doing laser SRP on a perio patient where conventional SRP failed to reduce pocket depths. Almost every crown can be CAD/CAM if you want, or you can send to a lab, the choice is yours.

I also like that in my suite (not sure about other suites) 4th year students are treated like dentists. If I ask a question to my clinical coordinator he will answer it and teach me. If my 4th year asks a question, the coordinator will say "what do you think doc?" We are expected to stand on our own our 4th year, and that is a good thing when we will actually be on our own very soon.

After talking to friends at other schools, I didn't realize that not all schools require you to comprehensively treatment plan your own patients. I just took that for granted, so I love that aspect too. And the fact that I can do as much in a single appointment as my patient and I are comfortable with and see as many patients as I can handle in a single day.

Do you have any interview tips? What do they look for in a candidate?


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Sure thing! Starting our second year, we are actively involved in the interview process. Here are a few things we (and faculty) look for at interviews:
  • Genuine humility is probably the biggest thing. Arrogance is a big turn off.
  • A decent understanding of dentistry.
  • If you've overcome a major obstacle in life, it will make you memorable.
  • Be memorable. Find something that sets you apart from the crowd.
 
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The fact that our experience is shaped entirely by our ambition and our demonstrated competence. My D4 partner placed 18 implants during his third year. We are currently completing two Trinia hybrid denture cases together with another 24 implants on our schedule between the two of us. We are doing laser SRP on a perio patient where conventional SRP failed to reduce pocket depths.

Once you establish a relationship with a specialist (endo, OS, perio, etc.) and they know you, they will give you more freedom to work on your own. My partner extracted third molars in our suite three weeks ago because our surgeons had confidence he could handle it.

I also like that in my suite (not sure about other suites) 4th year students are treated like dentists. If I ask a question to my clinical coordinator he will answer it and teach me. If my 4th year asks a question, the coordinator will say "what do you think doc?" We are expected to stand on our own our 4th year, and that is a good thing when we will actually be on our own very soon.

After talking to friends at other schools, I didn't realize that not all schools require you to treatment plan your own patients. I just took that for granted, so I love that aspect too. And the fact that I can do as much in a single appointment as my patient and I are comfortable with and see as many patients as I can handle in a single day.



Sure thing! Starting our second year, we are actively involved in the interview process. Here are a few things we (and faculty) look for at interviews:
  • Genuine humility is probably the biggest thing. Arrogance is a big turn off.
  • A decent understanding of dentistry.
  • If you've overcome a major obstacle in life, it will make you memorable.
  • Be memorable. Find something that sets you apart from the crowd.

Wow thank you! This was very insightful, I appreciate it!!


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Hi everyone,

I'm a third year dental student at Midwestern in Glendale, AZ. I'll answer any questions I can about our program.

1. When do you first enter clinic? I know it's early, but do you think you will need to do an AEGD/GPR after you graduate to enhance your skills?

2. How does a typical day look as a student? (ex. Class at 8, lunch at 12, clinic at 2, leave at 5) How does this vary between D1, D2, and D3 years

Probably will have more questions later, but those two are what linger in my head the most! Thinking about going the military route, so not having to do an AEGD would save me an extra year
 
1. When do you first enter clinic? I know it's early, but do you think you will need to do an AEGD/GPR after you graduate to enhance your skills?

We are in the clinic full-time starting our third year. From there, we work in the clinic 5 days a week, every week, for two years. We still have classes on Monday mornings, but that's it.

Very few people from our school do a GPR / AEGD. Usually, those students are going to practice somewhere that requires one (New York for instance) or they are on an air force HSPS scholarship (more on that later).

Our school's philosophy is to achieve competence by the end of our third year and then treat our fourth year like a built-in residency.

2. How does a typical day look as a student? (ex. Class at 8, lunch at 12, clinic at 2, leave at 5) How does this vary between D1, D2, and D3 years

D1 year you have a lot of basic science classes, but attendance is optional. Most of the class skips these classes and studies at home instead. Usually 8-4 Mon-Friday with days off here and there for rotations and such. D1 students spend the whole day in the simulation clinic on Mondays (8-4). Basic science exams are weekly (Tuesday mornings), and then there are quizzes and exams for dental courses scattered throughout the quarter. All D1 students take NBDE part I during the summer.

D2 year is roughly the same volume of classes, but they are mandatory. D2 students spend Tuesdays and Thursdays in the simulation clinic from 8-4. There are days off for rotations and such, but D2 year tends to be a lot busier. Dental exams are weekly (Wednesday) and then there are other course quizzes and exams scattered throughout each quarter. To move on to the clinic all D2 students must pass a DEX exam based loosely on the ADEX Manikin competency (but with additional requirements), and an OSCE.

D3 year is nearly full-time in the clinic. We have class on Monday mornings, and the rest of our week is 100% in the clinic treating patients. Exams are midterms and finals. We are required to pass an ADEX Manikin competency our D3 year regardless of what regional board we plan to take.

D4 year is similar to D3 year, but they have competencies every Monday morning. D4 students also have a few rotations they must complete (unless they do a service mission abroad). D4 students often eat up a lot of their vacation time for job interviews, conferences, and courses. D4 students are also taking NBDE part II and a regional board (ADEX, CRDTS, WREB, etc.)

Probably will have more questions later, but those two are what linger in my head the most! Thinking about going the military route, so not having to do an AEGD would save me an extra year.

Many of our students who do air force HPSP choose to do the AEGD because it has a great reputation for training highly competent clinicians.
 
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Many of our students who do air force HPSP choose to do the AEGD
Also because, according to my understanding, AF HPSP students are required to apply for a GPR/AEGD. It’s only encouraged in the Navy and Army. That year in residency does not count towards one’s payback. The scope of your day to day practice in the military is going to be dictated much more by your duty station than if you did a GPR/AEGD.

Big Hoss
 
1) Are students and faculty supportive and easily approachable?

2) Are there any classes or clubs to help you learn about practice ownership?

3) I only hear about the pros of MWU-AZ what are some cons (other than price)?
 
The fact that our experience is shaped entirely by our ambition and our demonstrated competence. Once you establish a relationship with a specialist (endo, OS, perio, etc.) and they know you, they will give you more freedom to work on your own. My partner extracted third molars in our suite (without surgeons) three weeks ago because our surgeons had confidence he could handle it without them.

There's almost no limit to what you can do at our school if faculty trust you. My D4 partner placed 18 implants during his third year (start to finish, from drilling the pilot hole to suturing the flap). We are currently completing two Trinia hybrid denture cases together with another 24 implants on our schedule between the two of us. We are doing laser SRP on a perio patient where conventional SRP failed to reduce pocket depths. Almost every crown can be CAD/CAM if you want, or you can send to a lab, the choice is yours.

I also like that in my suite (not sure about other suites) 4th year students are treated like dentists. If I ask a question to my clinical coordinator he will answer it and teach me. If my 4th year asks a question, the coordinator will say "what do you think doc?" We are expected to stand on our own our 4th year, and that is a good thing when we will actually be on our own very soon.

After talking to friends at other schools, I didn't realize that not all schools require you to comprehensively treatment plan your own patients. I just took that for granted, so I love that aspect too. And the fact that I can do as much in a single appointment as my patient and I are comfortable with and see as many patients as I can handle in a single day.



Sure thing! Starting our second year, we are actively involved in the interview process. Here are a few things we (and faculty) look for at interviews:
  • Genuine humility is probably the biggest thing. Arrogance is a big turn off.
  • A decent understanding of dentistry.
  • If you've overcome a major obstacle in life, it will make you memorable.
  • Be memorable. Find something that sets you apart from the crowd.

Sheesh!! What’s next? A D3 as lead surgeon of a double jaw?
 
1) Are students and faculty supportive and easily approachable?

Yes. Almost everyone at our school has an open door policy. That said, there are gradations to each professor's approachability. Overall I have found our faculty very approachable. I have walked into our dean's office probably 5-6 times unannounced and he always makes time to chat. He also responds to emails sent over the weekend or when he's traveling. Most of the faculty is similarly approachable.

Our administrators listen to our feedback. I don't think faculty evaluations mean much at most schools, but they mean everything here. Faculty has been let go when they received too many bad evals or student complaints.

2) Are there any classes or clubs to help you learn about practice ownership?

Our school prides itself on providing courses that will help prepare you for practice ownership, but in my personal opinion these classes largely fall short of the mark. That said, we do have student-led clubs for starting a dental practice and a great network of practice owning former-students who make themselves available to current students. Richard Low, George Hariri, and Ike Urlich of the Shared Practices podcast are all recent grads of our program. We have a really strong culture of practice ownership at this school.

3) I only hear about the pros of MWU-AZ what are some cons (other than price)?

I am extremely happy with MWU-AZ. That said, there are certainly things that could improve, mostly on the pre-clinical side.

We take NBDE I after our first year and spend most of our time studying basic sciences. In my opinion, and I know of several classmates who share this opinion, our didactics could be stronger. Some of our classes feel watered-down. For example, our head & neck anatomy course didn't require any dissection, and we relied on prosected cadavers done by the DO students. Sometimes, they absolutely butchered critical structures we could have benefitted from seeing. But hey, some dental schools don't even touch cadavers at all, so it's all relative.

Our head & neck anatomy class is only 1 quarter in length, and I think it's easy to forget a lot of what we learn by the time we get to the clinic. I really wish we had the opportunity to do more anatomy once we get in the clinic, a review of head & neck structures would be extremely helpful then. I learned a lot more in undergraduate anatomy than I did in the MWU head & neck anatomy course.

That said, I have spoken to friends and students I've met at multiple conferences, and I am often surprised to learn that their didactics courses were even less demanding than ours are, especially some of the PBL schools. I expected dental school basic sciences to be way harder than my undergraduate courses, but they largely weren't. What made dental school difficult was the volume. Maybe that's how it is everywhere, I don't know. What I do know, is that medical students work harder in the basic science courses than we do. My wife is a physician and she often said that we have it too easy and questioned how much we were really learning from 300-400 Powerpoint slides before each exam.

Another problem, and I think almost every dental student in our program agrees about this, the dental exams we take during our 2nd year are terribly written. Some of the questions look like they were written by a broken robot. This can be extremely frustrating as it often seems that the scores you get don't reflect the amount of time you spent studying. It's my understanding that admin wants to fix this next year, but I don't know much about that.

Our school is really bureaucratic, which isn't really that big a deal unless you are in charge of a club. Having been on student council and ASDA, one of the most frustrating things at Midwestern is how long it takes to get anything approved by the administration (not the dental school admin, Midwestern University's administration).

If you are really into research or specialization then this is not the school for you. Our research is mostly limited to products research and small studies. We have a tiny research endowment and only one research faculty.

Phoenix is really hot during the summer, some people hate that, I personally don't mind.

That's about all I can come up with!
 
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Sheesh!! What’s next? A D3 as lead surgeon of a double jaw?

Ha!

There are things we don't do as students. The endodontists do the apicoectomies, and any complex endo (anything with a high score on our scoring charts) has to be done with an endodontist. For the most part, the endodontists will do complex posterior molars as we assist unless they trust that you know what you are doing.

We don't do any super complex OS procedures. For example, LeForts and mandibular advancements are not done at our school. The OS residents do complex procedures at Banner Hospital. Students don't do lateral window sinus lifts, but we do sinus bumps.

Most of us won't do crown-lengthening, but I know some students do if the periodontists trust them enough.

We don't treat patients above ASA 2, and we turn away patients with dental conditions deemed too complex for our school from time-to-time. We don't work with TMD really, and we are only just starting to introduce OSA. Our school has no ability to provide GA, and we are pretty limited in the kinds of special needs cases we can see because we don't have a full-time anesthesiologist on faculty.

Like I said earlier, your experience at our school is largely dictated by your ambition and your demonstrated competence. Also, to get high numbers on the procedures you want to do, sacrifices will be made. My partner and I avoid ortho as much as possible so we can focus on endo, OS, and restorative.

Also because, according to my understanding, AF HPSP students are required to apply for a GPR/AEGD. It’s only encouraged in the Navy and Army. That year in residency does not count towards one’s payback. The scope of your day to day practice in the military is going to be dictated much more by your duty station than if you did a GPR/AEGD.

Big Hoss

I didn't know that, thanks Hoss. So they have to apply, but don't have to do it, is that correct?
 
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Our school has no ability to provide GA, and we are pretty limited in the kinds of special needs cases we can see because we don't have a full-time anesthesiologist on faculty.

I just learned that we will start providing general anesthesia in our pediatric clinic next month.
 
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Hi everyone,

I'm a third year dental student at Midwestern in Glendale, AZ. I'll answer any questions I can about our program.
Few more questions!

1. What kind of breaks are there and how long are they (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Summer, between quarters, etc.)

2. Do you have any classmates with dogs? Do they skip a class or go home for lunch to take them out? Me and my gf have a chihuahua and definitely want to bring him along if we go to MWU-AZ! Just want to know what we should expect

3. What are your plans to tackle debt? Long term via IBR/REPAY or a standard 10 year plan?
 
or a standard 10 year plan?
Have fun paying off $500,000 of student loans in 10 years! Your monthly payment will be around $5,800. That’s about $70,000/year...of after tax money. Uncle Sugar will give you a solid shake down every year! So, you’ll need to earn around $90,000/year just to cover your student loans. How much do you expect to earn as a dentist?

Most people at this debt level will enter an IBR payment plan, just hoping the government actually will forgive their balance in 20-25 years. But, I’m doubtful on that actually happening. The government is broke and the IBR plans are going to cost 100s of billions more than originally projected and they disproportionately benefit professional students, which was never the intention.

Go to the cheapest dental school you get into!

Big Hoss
 
Go to the cheapest dental school you get into!

Big Hoss
Oh believe me, I'm completely on board with going to the cheapest school. MWU-AZ would only be an option for me if I get the HPSP scholarship (surprised uncle Sam is still okay with paying 400k for some of these schools). Just curious what current students plans are for tackling that huge mountain of debt.
 
I am starting to study for the DAT now, and I want to get into Midwestern because it’s so close to home. Do you know of any DAT study groups in the area? Or anyone at Midwestern who does tutoring on the side? I’m obviously willing to pay for one on one tutoring. I don’t want to go through the one on one tutoring through Kaplan or other programs like such.
 
I am starting to study for the DAT now, and I want to get into Midwestern because it’s so close to home. Do you know of any DAT study groups in the area? Or anyone at Midwestern who does tutoring on the side? I’m obviously willing to pay for one on one tutoring. I don’t want to go through the one on one tutoring through Kaplan or other programs like such.
If you go to the MBS/MA Midwestern group you might find some of the Masters students that would want to join a study group.
 
Few more questions!

1. What kind of breaks are there and how long are they (Christmas, Thanksgiving, Summer, between quarters, etc.)

There is a summer break between first and second year. Everyone is expected to study for the NBDE during that time. That is the only summer vacation we get. Summer for me is a 1 week break coming up here at the end of August.

Christmas and Thanksgiving are around 2 weeks each.

2. Do you have any classmates with dogs? Do they skip a class or go home for lunch to take them out? Me and my gf have a chihuahua and definitely want to bring him along if we go to MWU-AZ! Just want to know what we should expect

Lots of us have dogs! Some people let their dogs out during lunch. I live 30 minutes from school and my wife works 30-40 minutes from home, so our dog has to wait for one of us to get home to go out. Obviously, not all dogs are capable of that.

3. What are your plans to tackle debt? Long term via IBR/REPAY or a standard 10 year plan?

My spouse works and makes good money, so my plans differ from most probably. That said, I have thought about this a lot and spoken to lots of people who seem to know what they are talking about, so here are some tips.

1.) Go to the cheapest school you can get into, usually. Although this typically holds true, some of the inexpensive state schools really don't offer much beyond basic restorative dentistry, and making up for that with CE can be very expensive. I spoke to a dentist recently who said he regretted that he is now spending $60k to $70k on CE for stuff he felt he would have learned at a different school. So, do your due diligence and make sure you know what curriculum you desire.
2.) Look at tuition and fees when calculating total school expenses. For example, Ohio State's out-of-state tuition is $75,955 and Midwestern's is $74,145. When you calculate total tuition and fees for both schools though, Midwestern costs $369,897 while Ohio State costs $406,439. That's a nearly $40,000 difference in fees.
3.) Minimize your expenses during school. Remember that every dollar you spend in school carries interest.
4.) Whether you choose a 'debt forgiveness' option, and which one you choose depends entirely upon your situation. Some people are better off consolidating their school loans into a private loan for the lower interest rate. Other people are better off extending out their payments so they can make them more manageable in the beginning. Remember, just because your loan term is 20 or 25 years doesn't mean you need to wait that long to pay it off!
5.) If you are planning to own your own practice, don't put it off. Too many people delay a practice acquisition because they think banks won't lend to them (untrue) or that they need to pay down their student loans first (bad idea).
6.) Realize that where you ultimately practice will dramatically affect your income potential.
 
Have fun paying off $500,000 of student loans in 10 years! Your monthly payment will be around $5,800. That’s about $70,000/year...of after tax money. Uncle Sugar will give you a solid shake down every year! So, you’ll need to earn around $90,000/year just to cover your student loans. How much do you expect to earn as a dentist?

Most people at this debt level will enter an IBR payment plan, just hoping the government actually will forgive their balance in 20-25 years. But, I’m doubtful on that actually happening. The government is broke and the IBR plans are going to cost 100s of billions more than originally projected and they disproportionately benefit professional students, which was never the intention.

Go to the cheapest dental school you get into!

Big Hoss

Dental school is expensive for most students these days. If you look at tuition and fees then Midwestern falls somewhere around 10th place in the nation, out of 67 schools. If you factor in cost-of-living, then Midwestern falls even lower, though how much depends entirely upon the individual. For many of us unfortunately, state schools are simply not an option. Too many states don't even have a dental school.

You are definitely right about those payments, they are painful.

I gave some tips in my previous post, I hope those help some folks. A few more things to consider:

If you pursue 'loan forgiveness' then you extend your loan term out to 20 or 25 years depending on the program. The year that your remaining loan balance is 'forgiven' the amount forgiven is counted as income. This is called a tax bomb, because you are basically adding that forgiven loan balance to your income for the year. There was an orthodontist covered in the WSJ recently who will owe $2 million by the time his loans are forgiven. If he makes $300k that year, and has $2 million forgiven, then you have to add another ~$800k tax bomb to his income, meaning he will owe $1.1 million that year.

That said, I know of many graduates who have used IBR or REPAYE to reduce their loan repayments. These same graduates also max out their student loans so they have enough liquid capital to secure a bank loan for a practice. As soon as they graduate they buy into a practice. Their loan payments are much lower, and they have enough liquidity to keep their practice and themselves afloat during the transition. Many of them have been very successful with this strategy, and most have paid off their loans in less than 10 years. That's not to say it will work for everyone, but it seems to work well for many.

There are many things you can do to offset your tax liabilities, reduce your loan interest, and increase your passive income, but that would require an entire separate thread.

Are you the electric bike guy? Any tips to get into a productive suite? Or is that just by name or something?

I start in a few weeks!

The other concern I have is that everyone seems married/have kids. Tons of Mormons and I don't think I've ever even met one before

I'm not the electric bike guy. Suite selection comes from the top. I've tried to see if I could influence their decision, but from what I can tell, they stick to their process.
 
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