DAT vs. GPA

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
apicalforamen

apicalforamen

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2015
Messages
177
Reaction score
200
Points
5,151
  1. Dentist
Members do not see this ad.
I know the classic scenarios of "High DAT, but low GPA" and vice versa are beaten to death on a daily basis, however I was wondering if people who fall under the category of "Extremely average DAT (AA sub 20), but extremely high GPA (3.85+ in science and overall from a respected university)" are ever questioned about these stats in an interview and if a high GPA can mask a lower score on a DAT subsection, say QR. Anyone had any experience with this?

It just seems to me that ADCOMS would consider the fact that the DAT is literally a "snapshot" of success or failure that occurred one time, on one day, whereas one's GPA is a collective "film" of one's academic integrity over 3+ years at the time of application...
 
The killer on your app wasn't so much the 19AA but the 15 QR. Your best bet is to apply broadly and see your chances. Breaking down DAT vs GPA isn't going to help about your particular scenario since I would've said you would have had a great chance if everything was above 18 or maybe even 17.

It's disheartening to hear but your options are either plan to retake and submit your app indicating a retake while applying broadly, or take the risk with applying with your current DAT. Your DAT isn't bad, like I said, it's just the QR is VERY low.
 
Weakfart said:
The killer on your app wasn't so much the 19AA but the 15 QR. Your best bet is to apply broadly and see your chances. Breaking down DAT vs GPA isn't going to help about your particular scenario since I would've said you would have had a great chance if everything was above 18 or maybe even 17.

It's disheartening to hear but your options are either plan to retake and submit your app indicating a retake while applying broadly, or take the risk with applying with your current DAT. Your DAT isn't bad, like I said, it's just the QR is VERY low.
Click to expand...
You didn't really answer the question...but note taken.
 
VolDental said:
You didn't really answer the question...but note taken.
Click to expand...
Okay you have a good chance of being asked about the 15QR so just think about an answer for that. A great GPA can mask a subpar DAT and vice versa but in this case I think it doesn't completely mask a 15 QR. But it doesn't put you in a terrible position to have a 15QR because of your high GPA as well.
 
You think wrong. Adcoms care much about both DAT and GPA and if one of them is low, they will either not invite you for an interview or most likely ask about it during your interview.

DAT is standardized, difficulty of the school is not.
 
No, I don't think that the Ad Comms take the DAT as a 'snapshot". It's an accumulation of knowledge up to that point and a low score either means you did not put in the proper time and effort for you personally to score well, or your education up to this point has not been sufficient to score well. I've heard this same "it's a snapshot" in reference to tests like the ACT and SAT as well, mainly when students don't score well. My take, again, not a snapshot but a more realistic portrayal of your academic level. I'll use an example from high school, our class valedictorian, 4.0 (school did not weight grades) that was very good at gaming the system (school allowed one pass/fail class each term--so she always P/F'd the hardest classes) and she studied 6-8 hours/day, dropped out of all activities so she could devote all of her time to her GPA. When we all started the college search process, she was set on heading off to an Ivy, until she scored a 26 on her ACT. None of us were surprised because she was not a "real" 4.0 student. None of us were surprised either when she got to college, a very good regional private school, and floundered freshman year. Those of us in the top 15% that took chances, challenged ourselves in high school, had realistic GPA's all scored higher than her on the ACT, with most of us scoring 30 or better, and many 33+. Of course we heard, "I just don't test well"...nope, you tested exactly where you should have.

I've heard this from various classmates and on other education boards when I was looking at colleges, "I got a great education, I have all A's". Well, your GPA is pretty meaningless without some kind of standard benchmark to back that up. I know a lot of kids that got all A's, in general classes, no AP's, etc. I'm sure they learned a lot, but that doesn't mean they are going to get a 36 on their ACT.

Doc Toothache's Rankings of schools based on DAT/GPA includes a column for the "Modified SA". Plug your numbers into that and see what you get. I'll go along with I want to go there and say that the DAT is standardized, difficulty of school is relative only to the courses you take and taught by whom. There are hard and easy classes at every college, what you do with that class and the knowledge you take away from that class is more important than the name on your sweatshirt.
 
@ajj70 while I agree that the DAT is standardized and that the difficulty of the college courses is relative, I think that someone still needs to put an effort in those courses (especially the upper science courses) to do well, and they deserve praise for their hard work. For example, I'm not a good standardized test taker, I got 1560/2400 on my SAT and 24 on my ACT. However, because I know that, I focused on my GPA (sGPA: 3.94, oGPA: 3.95) and I worked extra hard on my DAT (21 AA, 21 TS) so that I have a shot at dental school. Does it matter if I'm not a "true" 4.0?

@OP Why not improve on both DAT and GPA? I'm not saying it's easy by any means but it's a better alternative than sitting down and contemplating.

I guess what I'm saying is, just try to do well on both, and see what the tea leaves tell you ^^.
 
Greyangel6 said:
@ajj70 while I agree that the DAT is standardized and that the difficulty of the college courses is relative, I think that someone still needs to put an effort in those courses (especially the upper science courses) to do well, and they deserve praise for their hard work. For example, I'm not a good standardized test taker, I got 1560/2400 on my SAT and 24 on my ACT. However, because I know that, I focused on my GPA (sGPA: 3.94, oGPA: 3.95) and I worked extra hard on my DAT (21 AA, 21 TS) so that I have a shot at dental school. Does it matter if I'm not a "true" 4.0?

@OP Why not improve on both DAT and GPA? I'm not saying it's easy by any means but it's a better alternative than sitting down and contemplating.

I guess what I'm saying is, just try to do well on both, and see what the tea leaves tell you ^^.
Click to expand...

Again, the "I'm not a good test taker" is just an excuse. Your SAT and ACT scores are pretty identical and reflect more of your learned knowledge than your "I don't do well on standardized tests". When you took those tests in high school, that is what you were prepared to score, plain and simple. You did great in college and your DAT reflects your knowledge level at the point you took your test. There is a cognitive maturity process that happens as well and some kids just catch on to the whole learning thing later than others. Your DAT backs up your GPA and that is the point. If you had scored 18's on your DAT with that GPA, then you are in the same boat as the OP and most likely there was grade inflation going on or you didn't take very challenging classes or whatever. If you "don't do well on standardized tests" that would have carried over to your DAT. It's neither here nor there since you are now sitting in a very prime position for dental school but in response to the "snapshot question" the OP had, no, it's not a snapshot.
 
Dude I got a 23 TS 24 bio and a 14 in math and I spoke to schools directly, they said they don't give a crap about math, these guys have no idea what they are saying. My friend got into mid western with two 15's on his DAT one in math another in Orgo, he had a 3.3 overall gpa. You need to prove to them that you are a strong applicant. You need to realize some people on here have no idea what they are saying hah, you need to call schools, your 15 in math is str8 if I killed science if u didn't retake it and apply why wouldn't you? It's super easy to pull a 20 on the DAT imo if u try, but if math is the only thing u scored low on don't retake
 
dental deezle said:
Dude I got a 23 TS 24 bio and a 14 in math and I spoke to schools directly, they said they don't give a crap about math, these guys have no idea what they are saying. My friend got into mid western with two 15's on his DAT one in math another in Orgo, he had a 3.3 overall gpa. You need to prove to them that you are a strong applicant. You need to realize some people on here have no idea what they are saying hah, you need to call schools, your 15 in math is str8 if I killed science if u didn't retake it and apply why wouldn't you? It's super easy to pull a 20 on the DAT imo if u try, but if math is the only thing u scored low on don't retake
Click to expand...

Dude, quite different having 23/24 scores with one outlier vs 18/19's with one 15. Your "friend" also might have other qualities they were looking for in an applicant and that is why they overlooked 2 15's. Most people here DO know what they are talking about but also acknowledge that there are exceptions. Your school might not care about math, other schools might. There are also posters with very high GPA's and very high DAT's across the board that get rejected. There is a lot more to the process than just your DAT scores.
 
ajj70 said:
Dude, quite different having 23/24 scores with one outlier vs 18/19's with one 15. Your "friend" also might have other qualities they were looking for in an applicant and that is why they overlooked 2 15's. Most people here DO know what they are talking about but also acknowledge that there are exceptions. Your school might not care about math, other schools might. There are also posters with very high GPA's and very high DAT's across the board that get rejected. There is a lot more to the process than just your DAT scores.
Click to expand...
Yea what the other qualities were was his 3.3 s GPA. I'm sorry but if ur telling this guy with a high GPA that math is the reason he needs to retake that's not true I would tell him to retake to get better TS scores. Also if you read what I said was that he needs to prove he is a strong applicant just as my friend did. That is a major outlier for many schools. I'm simply giving him hope, you don't need to retake the DAT if you don't want to but why not do it to get a better chance of getting in. Also, I don't think many people here know what they are talking about I have seen people tell students to retake 22's and I have been told myself that my 14 in math Won't cut it by 5 different people, after speaking to 5 different schools there admissions directors told me otherwise and encouraged me to apply So yea dude, most people don't know what they are saying not specifically you.
 
dental deezle said:
Yea what the other qualities were was his 3.3 s GPA. I'm sorry but if ur telling this guy with a high GPA that math is the reason he needs to retake that's not true I would tell him to retake to get better TS scores. Also if you read what I said was that he needs to prove he is a strong applicant just as my friend did. That is a major outlier for many schools. I'm simply giving him hope, you don't need to retake the DAT if you don't want to but why not do it to get a better chance of getting in. Also, I don't think many people here know what they are talking about I have seen people tell students to retake 22's and I have been told myself that my 14 in math Won't cut it by 5 different people, after speaking to 5 different schools there admissions directors told me otherwise and encouraged me to apply So yea dude, most people don't know what they are saying not specifically you.
Click to expand...

Again, if ALL of the rest of his sections were good, no the low math score would't be a problem, but NONE of his scores are that good and with a "high" GPA and THAT low of DAT scores, it's going to toss up all kinds of red flags. He didn't score above a 20 on ANY section according to what he said, THAT is the problem, not a low QR score. What he is trying to insinuate is that because he went to a "respected school" he should get a pass on his low DAT but in fact, the opposite is true IF the school you attend matters. They would expect a BETTER DAT given you should have gotten a "better" education.
 
ajj70 said:
Again, if ALL of the rest of his sections were good, no the low math score would't be a problem, but NONE of his scores are that good and with a "high" GPA and THAT low of DAT scores, it's going to toss up all kinds of red flags. He didn't score above a 20 on ANY section according to what he said, THAT is the problem, not a low QR score. What he is trying to insinuate is that because he went to a "respected school" he should get a pass on his low DAT but in fact, the opposite is true IF the school you attend matters. They would expect a BETTER DAT given you should have gotten a "better" education.
Click to expand...
I scored above 20 in OChem and RC, actually...
 
ajj70 said:
Again, if ALL of the rest of his sections were good, no the low math score would't be a problem, but NONE of his scores are that good and with a "high" GPA and THAT low of DAT scores, it's going to toss up all kinds of red flags. He didn't score above a 20 on ANY section according to what he said, THAT is the problem, not a low QR score. What he is trying to insinuate is that because he went to a "respected school" he should get a pass on his low DAT but in fact, the opposite is true IF the school you attend matters. They would expect a BETTER DAT given you should have gotten a "better" education.
Click to expand...
I agree dat is important and it shows how hard a student works and is able to process the knowledge they have learned, many people had bad GPAs for personal reasons and the DAT is a chance to show they are strong students. I would retake if I were him just to bump up TS score to the 20 range and the math can bump too while he does it
 
VolDental said:
I scored above 20 in OChem and RC, actually...
Click to expand...

Sorry, Weakfart made it sound otherwise. I'd apply, just apply to a lot of schools and be ready to defend your QR.

But I still stand by what I said that the DAT is not a snapshot of how you were on that day and you may get questions about your high GPA and relatively average to below average DAT.
 
Greyangel6 said:
@ajj70 while I agree that the DAT is standardized and that the difficulty of the college courses is relative, I think that someone still needs to put an effort in those courses (especially the upper science courses) to do well, and they deserve praise for their hard work. For example, I'm not a good standardized test taker, I got 1560/2400 on my SAT and 24 on my ACT. However, because I know that, I focused on my GPA (sGPA: 3.94, oGPA: 3.95) and I worked extra hard on my DAT (21 AA, 21 TS) so that I have a shot at dental school. Does it matter if I'm not a "true" 4.0?

@OP Why not improve on both DAT and GPA? I'm not saying it's easy by any means but it's a better alternative than sitting down and contemplating.

I guess what I'm saying is, just try to do well on both, and see what the tea leaves tell you ^^.
Click to expand...
while 21 is a good score, it doesn't match up with 3.9+ gpa.

imo, 19 AA = 3.5 gpa, 21 = 3.6, 22 = 3.7, 3.8+ = 23+

sub 19 AA + over 3.5 gpa = ur college was probably easier than others
over 19AA + sub 3.5 = "difficult" college

ceteris paribus
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ajj70 said:
No, I don't think that the Ad Comms take the DAT as a 'snapshot". It's an accumulation of knowledge up to that point and a low score either means you did not put in the proper time and effort for you personally to score well, or your education up to this point has not been sufficient to score well. I've heard this same "it's a snapshot" in reference to tests like the ACT and SAT as well, mainly when students don't score well. My take, again, not a snapshot but a more realistic portrayal of your academic level. I'll use an example from high school, our class valedictorian, 4.0 (school did not weight grades) that was very good at gaming the system (school allowed one pass/fail class each term--so she always P/F'd the hardest classes) and she studied 6-8 hours/day, dropped out of all activities so she could devote all of her time to her GPA. When we all started the college search process, she was set on heading off to an Ivy, until she scored a 26 on her ACT. None of us were surprised because she was not a "real" 4.0 student. None of us were surprised either when she got to college, a very good regional private school, and floundered freshman year. Those of us in the top 15% that took chances, challenged ourselves in high school, had realistic GPA's all scored higher than her on the ACT, with most of us scoring 30 or better, and many 33+. Of course we heard, "I just don't test well"...nope, you tested exactly where you should have.

I've heard this from various classmates and on other education boards when I was looking at colleges, "I got a great education, I have all A's". Well, your GPA is pretty meaningless without some kind of standard benchmark to back that up. I know a lot of kids that got all A's, in general classes, no AP's, etc. I'm sure they learned a lot, but that doesn't mean they are going to get a 36 on their ACT.

Doc Toothache's Rankings of schools based on DAT/GPA includes a column for the "Modified SA". Plug your numbers into that and see what you get. I'll go along with I want to go there and say that the DAT is standardized, difficulty of school is relative only to the courses you take and taught by whom. There are hard and easy classes at every college, what you do with that class and the knowledge you take away from that class is more important than the name on your sweatshirt.
Click to expand...
I mean duh... but that's not always true. I know dozens of my friends from high school who rocked the ACT/SAT (31+/2100+) but ended up with very low GPAs because their time management was ****. We all took the same classes, and I was able to maintain a high GPA despite scoring relatively low on the standardized tests. So yeah, I don't know why that happened, but your case doesn't always hold up.

fyi, "my gpa is low because I went to a difficult school and would have been higher if i had gone to your school" is just as pathetic of an excuse as "i'm not a good test taker."
 
studentdent00 said:
I mean duh... but that's not always true. I know dozens of my friends from high school who rocked the ACT/SAT (31+/2100+) but ended up with very low GPAs because their time management was ****. We all took the same classes, and I was able to maintain a high GPA despite scoring relatively low on the standardized tests. So yeah, I don't know why that happened, but your case doesn't always hold up.

fyi, "my gpa is low because I went to a difficult school and would have been higher if i had gone to your school" is just as pathetic of an excuse as "i'm not a good test taker."
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. Some departments/classes are more rigorous at certain schools. One school's biology major, for example, might be a lot more rigorous and time consuming than another school's program. A student going through the more difficult program might learn a lot more, but his/her GPA might be worse off for it.
 
studentdent00 said:
while 21 is a good score, it doesn't match up with 3.9+ gpa.

imo, 19 AA = 3.5 gpa, 21 = 3.6, 22 = 3.7, 3.8+ = 23+

sub 19 AA + over 3.5 gpa = ur college was probably easier than others
over 19AA + sub 3.5 = "difficult" college
Click to expand...

Which is why I feel I'm very lucky. But does that make me any less competent? Idk. One thing I know is that I wouldn't contemplate weighing DAT vs GPA when I could just get the latest ADEA guide book and see which schools I should apply to or whether I could have a shot providing I have stellar LORs and my ECs.
 
Fortunately, schools look at the entire application and not just these two. My advice? Do the best you can. Help those who are less fortunate when you can. Make friends with the right people. Show your passion for dentistry and to humanity. If you do that, good things are bound to happen.
 
dental deezle said:
Dude I got a 23 TS 24 bio and a 14 in math and I spoke to schools directly, they said they don't give a crap about math, these guys have no idea what they are saying. My friend got into mid western with two 15's on his DAT one in math another in Orgo, he had a 3.3 overall gpa. You need to prove to them that you are a strong applicant. You need to realize some people on here have no idea what they are saying hah, you need to call schools, your 15 in math is str8 if I killed science if u didn't retake it and apply why wouldn't you? It's super easy to pull a 20 on the DAT imo if u try, but if math is the only thing u scored low on don't retake
Click to expand...
What all ECs did your friend have? And which Midwestern did he get into?
 
VolDental said:
I know the classic scenarios of "High DAT, but low GPA" and vice versa are beaten to death on a daily basis, however I was wondering if people who fall under the category of "Extremely average DAT (AA sub 20), but extremely high GPA (3.85+ in science and overall from a respected university)" are ever questioned about these stats in an interview and if a high GPA can mask a lower score on a DAT subsection, say QR. Anyone had any experience with this?

It just seems to me that ADCOMS would consider the fact that the DAT is literally a "snapshot" of success or failure that occurred one time, on one day, whereas one's GPA is a collective "film" of one's academic integrity over 3+ years at the time of application...
Click to expand...

hey man you don't have to suffer through retaking the DAT if people on sdn tell you to...do it if you want to and feel like it's worth it. only you know your overall chances as an applicant and if you're confident in yourself as an applicant, knowing that one DAT score doesn't define you, it'll show in your interviews
 
Hey I think this cycle will have lower DAT averages and less applicants !

Last that i remember, yearly averages decreased or is the same.... But now there are more seats ..... Touro
 
It is not THAT difficult to go 2 or 3 months to cram/teach yourself enough material to score a 21+ on the DAT. If you are willing to put in this much effort into the exam admissions people will see that.

Contrarily (as is my case) I put in about 2.5 weeks of relaxed studying into my DAT and scored a 21/21. 90%+ of what i studied was review and came back to me like I never forgot. Minimal effort into studying for the exam itself but a lot of effort in maintaining a 3.8+ science/overall GPA.

No matter how you slice it, it takes time and effort to master 1-2 years of science prerequisites required by ALL dental school. You have to show, someway, that you are capable of doing this.
 
studentdent00 said:
while 21 is a good score, it doesn't match up with 3.9+ gpa.

imo, 19 AA = 3.5 gpa, 21 = 3.6, 22 = 3.7, 3.8+ = 23+

sub 19 AA + over 3.5 gpa = ur college was probably easier than others
over 19AA + sub 3.5 = "difficult" college

ceteris paribus
Click to expand...

Did 20 disappeared ? lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

B
DAT vs science gpa
Replies
3
Views
2K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
Help us create a GPA-DAT grid!
Replies
11
Views
2K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
P
Post-bacc vs. SMP Advice Needed for Low GPA
Replies
8
Views
4K
bennewill
B
P
WAMC, High GPA & DAT
Replies
8
Views
1K
Mr.Smile12
Mr.Smile12
M
.
Replies
8
Views
3K
macsak
M
Top Bottom