Dave Ramsey hates our collective student debt

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Why do you expect that range of a salary? Is that not the higher range for PAs? Just from my knowledge, and searches using indeed and monster, I can't seem to see many cases where a physician gets paid less than 200k...Where should I look for accurate salaries?

That's what I was thinking- could be doing academic peds in the big city or something, but there is no field in medicine that you do not at least have the opportunity to make 200k+ if you are willing to relocate or put in extra hours. Making less is a choice, basically.

The average salary for pediatricians, family medicine docs, and psychiatrists is frequently quoted at less than 200K. Obviously, there is a potential to make more, but there are a number of things that go into that potential. I will probably make less out of fellowship than I would've staying a generalist, thanks to the way the payer system is set up now. IM and subspecialists routinely make double of what pediatricians and subspecialists make. But you couldn't pay me enough to spend my life taking care of adults.
 
It's actually worse than that. Docs in their 40s not only had half the principal we do today, but their debt didn't compound in residency. What they actually owed at the ens if residency was closer to a fourth of what docs today will pay. Of course, that also meant shorter repayment plans, so most of them will actually pay a fifth or a sixth of what the average doctor graduating residency today will.

Compound interest is terrifying

As long as you make income-based payments, your interest only capitalizes once upon the end of your grace period. I keep trying to tell residents that are deferring (really forbearance these days--the docs you spoke of in the old days had deferments) payments to at least make REPAYE payments since it will keep your interest from ever capitalizing again (assuming you re-apply each year) and the gov't pays half your unpaid interest (a sizeable chunk of money if you're a resident with a lot of student loans). REPAYE effectively brings your interest rate down 1-3 percentage points or so. I think my effective average rate is now around 4% instead of 7.1% or whatever those GradPlus loans bring up the average to.

Overall that makes things nicer, but as you say I'd still much prefer things be how the docs of yesteryear had it. Lower tuition/fees/housing costs, lower interest rates, full deferment while in residency, plus no FICA taxes (and those that paid them got refunds).
 
I'm going to take a stab at what @The White Coat Investor investor would say: Ramsey is right that that debt is ridiculous and strictly from a financial standpoint it likely would have been wiser for this individual to not go to dental school. Despite this he can still be financially successful if he lives frugally for the next ~8+ years and pays off his debt aggressively.

I ran the numbers myself below, and it looks pretty bad. By my rough calculations he'd have to live off of 35k/yr for 11+ years to pay off the debt.

80k salary (120k pretax)
Live off of 35k and spend 45k on debt.
At this rate it would take almost 11 years to pay off this debt. I didn't take into consideration any salary increases he would get but I also didn't take into consideration the interest on the debt.

I heard that call on the show. I agree with Dave's advice that this couple shouldn't buy a house and better get real serious about that debt real fast.

Personally, I think a good rule of thumb is to keep your student loan debt to no more than 1X your peak earnings. Maybe you can stretch it a little, but once you're out past 2X you're really on thin ice. So if you're a pediatrician, $180-200K is probably okay. If you're an orthopedic surgeon, than $400-600K is probably okay. If you're a dentist, then $150K is probably okay. Unfortunately, dental school tuition is nuts. $480K is not unusual at all these days for a dentist. Those with that issue need a spouse generating some income and need to do something to make their income higher- work really hard, own the business and have associates under them etc. Maybe if this couple does that they can get down to 2X instead of 4X.

This isn't just me blowing smoke. Run the numbers. Imagine $500K at 7%. What's the interest on that? Well, it's $35K a year. You have to pay $35K a year, or 29% of your income just to cover the interest. Let's assume you're paying 20% in taxes, we'll call that $24k. So you're left with just $61K a year. Now, if you live reasonably frugally, you can probably live on $40K a year with that stay at home spouse and two kids. That leaves you $21K a year to save for retirement and pay off $500K in debt. Let's say you split it 50/50. How many years will it take you to pay off $500K at $10K a year? It's not quite 50 years, since the interest will be less each year, but it's longer than your want your career to be. Did you really bust your butt in college and go to dental school in order to live on $40K a year for the rest of your life? I didn't think so. You don't love teeth that much and neither does anyone else.
 
Dave is excellent for average joe who wants to get out of debt but I agree with others who think he is so far removed from medical education that most of his advise can not be applied as a blanket statement for medical professionals. That said, the amount of debt that the example dentist had is very high for their income. I think it was good for him to knock some sense into the caller to basically say that they need to focus on the debt and not buying a house. Could the delivery have been better, you bet ya.

The best advise I received in training was not to buy a house right out of residency. I started a new job this year and there are over 3 months in delays between when I bill and payment to my account. If I would have bought a house I would have run into some serious financial trouble when my e-fund ran out and the paychecks had not started to come in yet. When I graduated I was getting emails almost weekly about physician loans for buying a house and when I called to inquire it seemed like they were all very happy to "help" me out.
 
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I heard that call on the show. I agree with Dave's advice that this couple shouldn't buy a house and better get real serious about that debt real fast.

Personally, I think a good rule of thumb is to keep your student loan debt to no more than 1X your peak earnings. Maybe you can stretch it a little, but once you're out past 2X you're really on thin ice. So if you're a pediatrician, $180-200K is probably okay. If you're an orthopedic surgeon, than $400-600K is probably okay. If you're a dentist, then $150K is probably okay. Unfortunately, dental school tuition is nuts. $480K is not unusual at all these days for a dentist. Those with that issue need a spouse generating some income and need to do something to make their income higher- work really hard, own the business and have associates under them etc. Maybe if this couple does that they can get down to 2X instead of 4X.

This isn't just me blowing smoke. Run the numbers. Imagine $500K at 7%. What's the interest on that? Well, it's $35K a year. You have to pay $35K a year, or 29% of your income just to cover the interest. Let's assume you're paying 20% in taxes, we'll call that $24k. So you're left with just $61K a year. Now, if you live reasonably frugally, you can probably live on $40K a year with that stay at home spouse and two kids. That leaves you $21K a year to save for retirement and pay off $500K in debt. Let's say you split it 50/50. How many years will it take you to pay off $500K at $10K a year? It's not quite 50 years, since the interest will be less each year, but it's longer than your want your career to be. Did you really bust your butt in college and go to dental school in order to live on $40K a year for the rest of your life? I didn't think so. You don't love teeth that much and neither does anyone else.

From your experience, when do people realize that their debt drastically lowers their large income? i thought the scariest part of the question was that she was actually asking if they should buy a house. Even at the end of dental school it seems like she/her husband are unaware of the fact that the 120k salary is going to be 40k when you add in debt.

Do banks give out home loans to ppl with high income and HIGHER debt?
 
I agree 100% with the principles Dave Ramsey promotes. There is, however, an exception to a few of his "guidelines". One is the credit card. I personally have a credit card and believe it is a great thing if treated like a debit. You do have to have self control, but the cash back and rewards are numerous if it's used and paid off immediately.

Second is medical school education. Yes, the debt is astronomical. But how many doctors do you see who are in their 40s still complaining about massive amounts of debt if they managed money wisely? Not many. It's about perspective. If you want an extravagant lifestyle...yeah, you might be having lots of debt. If you live modestly until you can afford to do otherwise, it won't take too long to pay things off.
I would say in response to this that we don't see too many Doctors into their 40s complaining about their medical/dental school debt because the cost of tuition wasn't so astronomical then. ADA recently published costs for dental schools has increased 40% since 2010. The amount of debt to finance medical/dental school is definitely a game changer.

EDIT - you are correct though, it is about being financially wise
 
From your experience, when do people realize that their debt drastically lowers their large income? i thought the scariest part of the question was that she was actually asking if they should buy a house. Even at the end of dental school it seems like she/her husband are unaware of the fact that the 120k salary is going to be 40k when you add in debt.

Do banks give out home loans to ppl with high income and HIGHER debt?

They realize it about 6 months into attendinghood if they're not financially aware.

Yes, banks do lend to doctors, often with less than 20% down.
 
From your experience, when do people realize that their debt drastically lowers their large income? i thought the scariest part of the question was that she was actually asking if they should buy a house. Even at the end of dental school it seems like she/her husband are unaware of the fact that the 120k salary is going to be 40k when you add in debt.

Do banks give out home loans to ppl with high income and HIGHER debt?

Assuming they're using an IBR plan, it's going to be a lot closer to ~75k after taxes (after deducting the poverty line for a family of 2). Compare that to ~84k after taxes otherwise -- really not much difference. These plans have bi-partisan support, so really no risk of them going away unless there's a government shutdown/default. Sure, it sucks to be paying loans for 20-25 years, but these plans make seemingly insurmountable student debt quite manageable even for the financially ignorant.
 
Please tell me what type of debt gets passed on to family. I realize that your estate which you may have planned on being handed over in a will can get ceased to pay off debts, but debt collectors do not have any legal action to pursue family members for debts of deceased that I'm aware of.

1) co-signers....many, if not most people with private loans have co-signers.

2) spouses at the time the loan was taken out

3) indirectly any children, as the loans will be repaid with what would have been their inheritance (life insurance policies are exempt if drawn up correctly, ie being paid into a trust, as minors can't directly inherit money.)
 
1) co-signers....many, if not most people with private loans have co-signers.

2) spouses at the time the loan was taken out

3) indirectly any children, as the loans will be repaid with what would have been their inheritance (life insurance policies are exempt if drawn up correctly, ie being paid into a trust, as minors can't directly inherit money.)
True, I was thinking more of federal student loans, which do not require cosigners for the majority of people, and spouses are not responsible for after death. I mentioned above that an estate may be sometimes have to go toward paying debt.
 
So, I did the math because I stumbled upon the forum and was curious about what the numbers dictated, and the evidence is relatively overwhelming against Dave. Using a standard interest rate compounding twelve times per year and at 0.0667 percent, it would take this dentist 13ish years (post HS) to have a net value of zero; the same would be true for an MD who makes 200,000 and graduates with 250,000 dollars of debt and both assume no money made during residencies. Assuming someone can pull 50,000 dollars straight out of HS (haha) both the dentist and a "average MD" surpass the HS grad by age 38 and their values will vastly exceed the HS grad by age 50. There are obviously many variables here, but I think we can all see that it is better to pursue a graduate degree (especially in healtchare) than to not. I believe that Dave is an old "get off my lawn" type who needs to go away. His thinking is antiquated and rudementary and it shows.
 
So, I did the math because I stumbled upon the forum and was curious about what the numbers dictated, and the evidence is relatively overwhelming against Dave. Using a standard interest rate compounding twelve times per year and at 0.0667 percent, it would take this dentist 13ish years (post HS) to have a net value of zero; the same would be true for an MD who makes 200,000 and graduates with 250,000 dollars of debt and both assume no money made during residencies. Assuming someone can pull 50,000 dollars straight out of HS (haha) both the dentist and a "average MD" surpass the HS grad by age 38 and their values will vastly exceed the HS grad by age 50. There are obviously many variables here, but I think we can all see that it is better to pursue a graduate degree (especially in healtchare) than to not. I believe that Dave is an old "get off my lawn" type who needs to go away. His thinking is antiquated and rudementary and it shows.
What about the dentist with a 480k school loan and an extra 500k practice loan?
 
So, I did the math because I stumbled upon the forum and was curious about what the numbers dictated, and the evidence is relatively overwhelming against Dave. Using a standard interest rate compounding twelve times per year and at 0.0667 percent, it would take this dentist 13ish years (post HS) to have a net value of zero; the same would be true for an MD who makes 200,000 and graduates with 250,000 dollars of debt and both assume no money made during residencies. Assuming someone can pull 50,000 dollars straight out of HS (haha) both the dentist and a "average MD" surpass the HS grad by age 38 and their values will vastly exceed the HS grad by age 50. There are obviously many variables here, but I think we can all see that it is better to pursue a graduate degree (especially in healtchare) than to not. I believe that Dave is an old "get off my lawn" type who needs to go away. His thinking is antiquated and rudementary and it shows.
.0667 percent = .000667. Did you mistakenly write percent or did you do your calculations with wrong interest rate? Did you include present value in these calculations? 50k today is not the same value as 50k in 15 years. Did you consider residency as well and the effect this will have on their debt?

I agree it's worth it but I think it becomes worth it at a much later time than age 38 if average person graduates med school at like 26-27 and then graduates residency at 30-32ish.

These analyses end up being pretty complex by the time you incorporate present value, taxes and loan amortization. Something to think about though is that for your 50k /yr out of HS grad, they are racking up 50k at present value in earnings( minus tax) while the med student is paying 50+k/yr for med school, not to mention their undergrad unless they had a scholarship . Even in the event of a scholarship, the 50k out of HS person is still destroying them in the short term while they are making + value while the undergrad is at best neutral (and realistically negative with various living expenses at minimum).

The difference is then magnified when you look at what that money could have done invested ( or at least partially). This time period elapses 8+ years, a lot of people take gap years, research years, maybe an extra undergrad year . Then you have residency which is another 3-8 yr period where the person is probably making around 50k, but they still have that extremely high loan interest of almost 17k per year alone. So realistically they will be pretty lucky to even cover the interest in that period.

Another thing is that even after you get that attending money, you're taxed at a higher rate compared to the 50k per person. So that difference in income isn't as large at it appears to be at first glance.

I would guess that in that scenario it would probably end up be "worth" it financially at least 10 years later than your forecasted 38 in a truly accurate scenario.
 
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.0667 percent = .000667. Did you mistakenly write percent or did you do your calculations with wrong interest rate? Did you include present value in these calculations? 50k today is not the same value as 50k in 15 years. Did you consider residency as well and the effect this will have on their debt?

I agree it's worth it but I think it becomes worth it at a much later time than age 38 if average person graduates med school at like 26-27 and then graduates residency at 30-32ish.

These analyses end up being pretty complex by the time you incorporate present value, taxes and loan amortization. Something to think about though is that for your 50k /yr out of HS grad, they are racking up 50k at present value in earnings( minus tax) while the med student is paying 50+k/yr for med school, not to mention their undergrad unless they had a scholarship . Even in the event of a scholarship, the 50k out of HS person is still destroying them in the short term while they are making + value while the undergrad is at best neutral (and realistically negative with various living expenses at minimum).

The difference is then magnified when you look at what that money could have done invested ( or at least partially). This time period elapses 8+ years, a lot of people take gap years, research years, maybe an extra undergrad year . Then you have residency which is another 3-8 yr period where the person is probably making around 50k, but they still have that extremely high loan interest of almost 17k per year alone. So realistically they will be pretty lucky to even cover the interest in that period.

Another thing is that even after you get that attending money, you're taxed at a higher rate compared to the 50k per person. So that difference in income isn't as large at it appears to be at first glance.

I would guess that in that scenario it would probably end up be "worth" it financially at least 10 years later than your forecasted 38 in a truly accurate scenario.
You're
right, 6.66 percent. And I did maybe make the numbers slightly too convenient, so I recalculated with some investments. I created three people, HS Student, Medical Student A, Medical Student B.
HS Student makes 50,000 dollars, and pays only federal income tax at 18%. The remaining money is annually invested as a 50:50 split between investments at 3.33% (housing, small yield funds...) and 7% (stock market). Each year they also spend 10,000 dollars erroneously and see no return.
Medical Student A accrues 300,000 dollars in debt, and it takes them until age 34 to pay off their debt (6-8 years out of medical school). Only after being debt free can they invest. They then follow the same investment portfolio as HS Student; however, they are taxed at 33% at the federal level. They exceed the net worth of HS Student at age 37 ( three years out of debt). Additionally the Medical Student spends 20,000 dollars erroneously and sees no return.
Medical Student B is the same as Medical Student A, but they are not debt free until age 38 (10-12 years out of medical school). Otherwise they follow Medical Student A. Their net worth exceeds HS Student by age 41 (again 3 years out of debt).
Notice that neither student utilizes a debt repayment plan and pays the amount of their debt off in full with interest.
I didn't crunch the dentist's numners, but they would likely be similar, and once again I took many shortcuts (but I am not a financial analyst).
By no means am I stating that this is 100% accurate and can be taken literally, but IMO, no matter which way you look at it, the average doctor will far outgain the general population, and physicians also report a very high level of job satisfaction (that's what really matters).
All I'm trying to do here is crusade against the blabocrat who this thread is named after. He gets kicks off of belittling others. He needs to go away; he isn't as great as he thinks he is.
 
All I'm trying to do here is crusade against the blabocrat who this thread is named after. He gets kicks off of belittling others. He needs to go away; he isn't as great as he thinks he is.
?
He's actually extremely helpful, and has some great ideas. Most people in the world would probably agree with him that 500k is outrageous for a dental degree (including many practicing dentists). But it may be offensive to a pre-dent who is willing to go to dental school at any cost and for any price.
 
I really can't stand what this self-proclaimed financial guru is preaching. Regardless of how valid his point about high student debt is, the fervor with which this guy decries people taking out loans to go to school is sickening. He's got an agenda, which is quite simple. Education sucks unless it pays off big time. Yes, it doesn't always pay off and there are times when it is not worth it, BUT, for majority of people getting an undergrad/graduate degree is a plus. Aside from the whole money issue, there are also things like social capital and self-development that actually give meaning to life. Again, I get it. The debt in this case may not be worth it. But why let an infomercial star re-frame the conversation about making education affordable into education is a waste of time?

Neglecting the benefits of going to school in hopes of one day becoming a successful Larry the cable guy who made it big running his own plumbing company is just as silly as taking out astronomical debt. I see this video as yet another veiled attempt to score some points with his typical listeners by ripping on someone with a dental degree and, in the process, validate the "school is a waste of time/scam, etc" views.
 
Ramsey has a specific target audience. We ain't it.

He keeps that audience by continuing to preach a very specific message. That message is very applicable to the target audience.

After that, it doesn't matter what he says. The math doesn't work for high income earners. Erasing all of your debt quickly isn't a great idea for a number of reasons, none more important than neglecting retirement investments. I'm not saying to spend like crazy, but address your investments first, and "pay off loans quickly" second. Treat yourself third. Three shouldn't really happen until 1 and 2 are secured.
 
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Ramsey has a specific target audience. We ain't it.

He keeps that audience by continuing to preach a very specific message. That message is very applicable to the target audience.

After that, it doesn't matter what he says. The math doesn't work for high income earners. Erasing all of your debt quickly isn't a great idea for a number of reasons, none more important than neglecting retirement investments. I'm not saying to spend like crazy, but address your investments first, and "pay off loans quickly" second. Treat yourself third. Three shouldn't really happen until 1 and 2 are secured.

This.
 
After that, it doesn't matter what he says. The math doesn't work for high income earners. Erasing all of your debt quickly isn't a great idea for a number of reasons, none more important than neglecting retirement investments. I'm not saying to spend like crazy, but address your investments first, and "pay off loans quickly" second. Treat yourself third. Three shouldn't really happen until 1 and 2 are secured.

Disagree, for two reasons.

1) Paying of debt and tax free retirement investments are, at best, equal financial decisions. Both investments return an effective 7% return which is not taxed.


2). There are many studies of debt that show that debt costs you not just what you pay, but also earning potential. That's true at any income level. There is a tremendous psychological burden to debt, and people who maintain large amounts of it often stay in worse jobs and take fewer risks in their careers.

Debt first. No retirement savings until the debt is gone.
 
Disagree, for two reasons.

1) Paying of debt and tax free retirement investments are, at best, equal financial decisions. Both investments return an effective 7% return which is not taxed.


2). There are many studies of debt that show that debt costs you not just what you pay, but also earning potential. That's true at any income level. There is a tremendous psychological burden to debt, and people who maintain large amounts of it often stay in worse jobs and take fewer risks in their careers.

Debt first. No retirement savings until the debt is gone.

I'm not trying to argue. Just stating my opinion. You do it your way, and I'll see you on the beach during retirement when you get there...Five to ten years after me. 😛 😉
 
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